Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 16th Feb 2012 14:46 UTC
Mac OS X Well, this is a surprise. Several websites have a preview up of Apple's next Mac OS X release - it's called Mountain Lion, and continues the trend of bringing over functionality from iOS to Mac OS X. Lots of cool stuff in here we've all seen before on iPhones and iPads, including one very, very controversial feature: Gatekeeper. Starting with Mac OS X 10.8, Apple's desktop operating system will be restricted to Mac App Store and Apple-signed applications by default (with an opt-out switch), following in Windows 8's footsteps.
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RE[4]: Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Thu 16th Feb 2012 15:54 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai"
kaiwai
Member since:
2005-07-06

This isn't about how it is today. It's about the path we've headed into.

People called me crazy when I said Apple would eventually include a switch like this. Now people are calling me crazy again? We all know where this is heading: full curation, similar to iOS. If you STILL want to insist there's no sign of this happening... Well, then I'm afraid you're a lost cause.

Like I said - as long as their freedom is taken away in small bits and pieces, people don't give a shit.


I would love to know who these 'people are' given that most people I spoke to agree that Apple would enable some sort of way to restrict what can and can't be installed via the use of application bundle signatures but enable people to over ride it. Here we are in 2012 and guess what - the sky hasn't fallen, you can install what ever applications you want and everything is as cool as cucumbers.

You talk about 'taking away freedom bit by bit' - what have they taken away RIGHT NOW! not what could happen in 5 years but RIGHT NOW! not what you believe could happen but is happening RIGHT NOW! I mean, come on, what next, the analogy of the frog in a pot of water being boiled alive? comparisons between Mac OS X, Gatekeeper and goose stepping? I mean come on, the hysteria has all the stupidity associated with the debate in the US over 'Obama Care' and the claim there would be 'death panels' that would push Aunt Pearl off the cliff if her arthritis medication becomes too much! I would have thought you were better than this Thom - I really did.

Reply Parent Score: -1

RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai
by Excarnate on Thu 16th Feb 2012 16:02 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by kaiwai"
Excarnate Member since:
2011-08-01

Kaiwai, since I posted I can't moderate you down, and there isn't a choice for "Forgot to take his lithium".

You are a lost cause, in part because although you read what Thom said, you ignored it and reacted with your gut (oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc). He said essentially that Gatekeeper is a step toward more control, you want to talk about how it isn't total control RIGHT NOW IN ALL CAPS.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Thu 16th Feb 2012 16:14 in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Kaiwai, since I posted I can't moderate you down, and there isn't a choice for "Forgot to take his lithium".


So rather than engage in a debate you'd sooner censor someone else's opinion. Funny how you're all 'freedom' until someone pisses you off with a view point you disagree with.

You are a lost cause, in part because although you read what Thom said, you ignored it and reacted with your gut (oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc). He said essentially that Gatekeeper is a step toward more control, you want to talk about how it isn't total control RIGHT NOW IN ALL CAPS.


If you're going to see the bar to conspiracies that low then why didn't he say the very same thing when Microsoft introduced signed drivers with Windows 7 64bit? How about the 'only allowed signed applications to run' which was provided with Windows 7 and Windows 2008 R2?

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd723683(v=ws.10).aspx

I don't know about you but it seems pretty damn selective hysteria if you ask me - how about some consistency.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 16th Feb 2012 16:04 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by kaiwai"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

They've taken away the ability for people to stray beyond what Apple approves. Do you really think regular users are going to mess with a scary security setting?

And how do you think regular users become knowledgeable users? Exactly - they become so by venturing beyond the regular capabilities of the software they're using. By trying to stray form the carved path and explore - and large groups of people will now never get to do this exploring because it's locked up behind scary security switches and the like.

I would have never grown up to become a computer geek had I not had the ability to fcuk shit up. We're raising the digital equivalent of padded playground floor kids - you know those new playgrounds with bouncy floors so poor Timmy can't get an auwie when he tumbles off the jungle gym?

We're raising a generation of spoiled digital pussies. Fcuk ups are the best teaching moments.

Reply Parent Score: 8

RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai
by kragil on Thu 16th Feb 2012 16:09 in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai"
kragil Member since:
2006-01-04

+10^googol

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Thu 16th Feb 2012 16:20 in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

They've taken away the ability for people to stray beyond what Apple approves. Do you really think regular users are going to mess with a scary security setting?

And how do you think regular users become knowledgeable users? Exactly - they become so by venturing beyond the regular capabilities of the software they're using. By trying to stray form the carved path and explore - and large groups of people will now never get to do this exploring because it's locked up behind scary security switches and the like.

I would have never grown up to become a computer geek had I not had the ability to fcuk shit up. We're raising the digital equivalent of padded playground floor kids - you know those new playgrounds with bouncy floors so poor Timmy can't get an auwie when he tumbles off the jungle gym?

We're raising a generation of spoiled digital pussies. Fcuk ups are the best teaching moments.


Just to copy and paste what I said prior: If you're going to see the bar to conspiracies that low then why didn't he say the very same thing when Microsoft introduced signed drivers with Windows 7 64bit? How about the 'only allowed signed applications to run' which was provided with Windows 7 and Windows 2008 R2?

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd723683(v=ws.10).aspx

I don't know about you but it seems pretty damn selective hysteria if you ask me - how about some consistency.

As for 'spoiled digital pussies' - get used to it. The world is designed for the lowest common denominator - the Nascar watching, Budweiser chugging, McDonalds chomping, SUV driving, credit card debt accumulating, mouth breathing, reality tv watching, Jersey Shore emulating knuckle draggers who believe that the friendly Nigerian who sent them an email is really going to share some of his wealth with them if only they hand over the bank details.

That is whom Apple and Microsoft (along with others) target so it is time to accept that you, I and most people here are in the minority and move on with life. The frustration you're exhibiting I went through 15 years ago when I was a Linux fan boy dead certain if people just pulled their head out of their ass and spent some time learning how to use their computer they would see the benefits of Linux. The sad reality is that as I've aged I realise that society will never change and to hold out the maybe some sort of collective consciousness occurs is simply putting far too much hope in humanity getting its collective shit together.

Edited 2012-02-16 16:22 UTC

Reply Parent Score: -1

RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai
by WorknMan on Thu 16th Feb 2012 22:53 in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

They've taken away the ability for people to stray beyond what Apple approves. Do you really think regular users are going to mess with a scary security setting?


They won't, and that's the whole point. Look, we all know the real reason why Apple is doing this, just like when they said that Flash wasn't going to be on the iPhone. However, in the case of Flash, what ended up being good for Apple was also good for end users, since Flash is going away. This ultimately benefits end users, because the lack of Flash support on a device won't be a hindrance, and because Flash itself is a security nightmare, with more holes than Swiss cheese.

And I also think that limiting apps to the Mac app store will ultimately benefit your average Joe, especially where security is involved.

And how do you think regular users become knowledgeable users? Exactly - they become so by venturing beyond the regular capabilities of the software they're using.


See, that's the beauty of this setup - regular users don't NEED to become knowledgeable users; if they can use their computers to do what they need to get done without any voodoo involved, so much the better.

I would have never grown up to become a computer geek had I not had the ability to fcuk shit up. We're raising the digital equivalent of padded playground floor kids - you know those new playgrounds with bouncy floors so poor Timmy can't get an auwie when he tumbles off the jungle gym?


In the old days, when people fcuked up their computers, they figured out how to fix it. These days, when my friends and family fcuk up their computers, they call me and *I* have to deal with it. So anything that reduces my tech support calls is a win, as far as I'm concerned. I have little doubt that Apple is going to make it harder to turn this switch off, and to that I say GOOD. The harder it is for the computer-illiterate people that I have to provide tech support for to hurt themselves, the happier I am.

But hey, I understand the concern... what if Apple/MS make it impossible to turn this switch off?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope_argument

It's the same kind of bullshit logic that says we shouldn't allow gay marriage to happen because it will lead to people molesting small children and marrying their horses.

Look, I think this is a good idea overall, and I hate when good ideas are shot down because people are afraid that some other thing will eventually happen as a result. Well, if it does happen and they make it mandatory, we'll deal with it at that time. As it stands, I think this kind of thing will result in people actually being able to USE their computer productively without having to know how it works. For whatever reason, the very thought of this seems to offend most geeks, like we're making things too easy. 'Hey, we had to walk butt-naked in the snow when it was 40 degrees below zero just to make our computers work, so why shouldn't everybody else?'

Reply Parent Score: -1

RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai
by redshift on Fri 17th Feb 2012 03:50 in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai"
redshift Member since:
2006-05-06

They've taken away the ability for people to stray beyond what Apple approves. Do you really think regular users are going to mess with a scary security setting?


Roadblocks are problems, not guardrails.

I don't see such a problem with safe defaults. I would prefer that people who don't know what they are doing leave that switch off in the first place. As long as they have an override for those who care to learn about and understand their computing environment, I am fine with it. It is not much different than requiring that users press option to see there library folder to keep the casual users from jacking up their settings.

I have a bigger question as to why their firewall ships in the off state on lion.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai
by blitze on Fri 17th Feb 2012 11:11 in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai"
blitze Member since:
2006-09-15

Don't worry Thom, as the Australian tourist to Asia in search of non cotton wooled experiences has show, with a few resultant deaths in boundary pushing, the same will happen with Tech.

Personally it would be nice to lock all these cotton wool brigaders away so as not hinder the progress of mankind but, it is going to take a lot before nannied West wakes the F up and gets over itself. I do believe this lot will happen quickly as the systems of the West implode under the weight of corruption and gov control much like the Soviet System imploded, cause enough of us said enough!

The irony will be those countries the media in the West called authoritarian and lacking in freedoms that will rocket ahead past the West and allow their people to have non locked down freedoms which the West is kissing bye bye.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai
by brichpmr on Sun 19th Feb 2012 15:37 in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai"
brichpmr Member since:
2006-04-22

They've taken away the ability for people to stray beyond what Apple approves. Do you really think regular users are going to mess with a scary security setting?

And how do you think regular users become knowledgeable users? Exactly - they become so by venturing beyond the regular capabilities of the software they're using. By trying to stray form the carved path and explore - and large groups of people will now never get to do this exploring because it's locked up behind scary security switches and the like.

I would have never grown up to become a computer geek had I not had the ability to fcuk shit up. We're raising the digital equivalent of padded playground floor kids - you know those new playgrounds with bouncy floors so poor Timmy can't get an auwie when he tumbles off the jungle gym?

We're raising a generation of spoiled digital pussies. Fcuk ups are the best teaching moments.


I read this differently. Apple will make it easier for users to install curated/signed apps as a default; but will also let any user easily install any other apps they wish. You will still have the freedom to f*ck up your computer as you please....so, please, knock it off with your tribal wisdom.

Reply Parent Score: 1