Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 16th Feb 2012 14:46 UTC
Mac OS X Well, this is a surprise. Several websites have a preview up of Apple's next Mac OS X release - it's called Mountain Lion, and continues the trend of bringing over functionality from iOS to Mac OS X. Lots of cool stuff in here we've all seen before on iPhones and iPads, including one very, very controversial feature: Gatekeeper. Starting with Mac OS X 10.8, Apple's desktop operating system will be restricted to Mac App Store and Apple-signed applications by default (with an opt-out switch), following in Windows 8's footsteps.
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RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 16th Feb 2012 16:04 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by kaiwai"
Thom_Holwerda
Member since:
2005-06-29

They've taken away the ability for people to stray beyond what Apple approves. Do you really think regular users are going to mess with a scary security setting?

And how do you think regular users become knowledgeable users? Exactly - they become so by venturing beyond the regular capabilities of the software they're using. By trying to stray form the carved path and explore - and large groups of people will now never get to do this exploring because it's locked up behind scary security switches and the like.

I would have never grown up to become a computer geek had I not had the ability to fcuk shit up. We're raising the digital equivalent of padded playground floor kids - you know those new playgrounds with bouncy floors so poor Timmy can't get an auwie when he tumbles off the jungle gym?

We're raising a generation of spoiled digital pussies. Fcuk ups are the best teaching moments.

Reply Parent Score: 8

RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai
by kragil on Thu 16th Feb 2012 16:09 in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai"
kragil Member since:
2006-01-04

+10^googol

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Thu 16th Feb 2012 16:20 in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

They've taken away the ability for people to stray beyond what Apple approves. Do you really think regular users are going to mess with a scary security setting?

And how do you think regular users become knowledgeable users? Exactly - they become so by venturing beyond the regular capabilities of the software they're using. By trying to stray form the carved path and explore - and large groups of people will now never get to do this exploring because it's locked up behind scary security switches and the like.

I would have never grown up to become a computer geek had I not had the ability to fcuk shit up. We're raising the digital equivalent of padded playground floor kids - you know those new playgrounds with bouncy floors so poor Timmy can't get an auwie when he tumbles off the jungle gym?

We're raising a generation of spoiled digital pussies. Fcuk ups are the best teaching moments.


Just to copy and paste what I said prior: If you're going to see the bar to conspiracies that low then why didn't he say the very same thing when Microsoft introduced signed drivers with Windows 7 64bit? How about the 'only allowed signed applications to run' which was provided with Windows 7 and Windows 2008 R2?

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd723683(v=ws.10).aspx

I don't know about you but it seems pretty damn selective hysteria if you ask me - how about some consistency.

As for 'spoiled digital pussies' - get used to it. The world is designed for the lowest common denominator - the Nascar watching, Budweiser chugging, McDonalds chomping, SUV driving, credit card debt accumulating, mouth breathing, reality tv watching, Jersey Shore emulating knuckle draggers who believe that the friendly Nigerian who sent them an email is really going to share some of his wealth with them if only they hand over the bank details.

That is whom Apple and Microsoft (along with others) target so it is time to accept that you, I and most people here are in the minority and move on with life. The frustration you're exhibiting I went through 15 years ago when I was a Linux fan boy dead certain if people just pulled their head out of their ass and spent some time learning how to use their computer they would see the benefits of Linux. The sad reality is that as I've aged I realise that society will never change and to hold out the maybe some sort of collective consciousness occurs is simply putting far too much hope in humanity getting its collective shit together.

Edited 2012-02-16 16:22 UTC

Reply Parent Score: -1

RE[7]: Comment by kaiwai
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 16th Feb 2012 16:24 in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

I don't know about you but it seems pretty damn selective hysteria if you ask me - how about some consistency.


It isn't. First of all, there's a world of difference between a hidden opt-in and opt-out. Second, as far as drivers are concerned - this is a much older thing (like, uh, 8 years or something?) and I have no trouble admitting that I didn't see it as a threat back then. Mind you, this was pre-iOS. Pre-WP7. Pre-iPad. Pre-Android. Pre-Windows 8.

So, 8 years ago I didn't see something as a threat, but now I do. You got me there.

As for 'spoiled digital pussies' - get used to it.


And with that one single 'get used to it', you proved my entire point. Thank you.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[7]: Comment by kaiwai
by boxy on Thu 16th Feb 2012 17:01 in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai"
boxy Member since:
2011-06-20

As for 'spoiled digital pussies' - get used to it.


No thanks. This is exactly the problem that the Raspberry Pi project wants to address. There is a severe lack of digital education (and educators), at least in the US. You don't solve this problem by ignoring it. You solve it by addressing it. The only question is whether or not it's a problem worth addressing. In my opinion, it is. I think getting a proper computing education as just as important as getting a proper reading, writing, and/or math education.

The world is designed for the lowest common denominator - the Nascar watching, Budweiser chugging, McDonalds chomping, SUV driving, credit card debt accumulating, mouth breathing, reality tv watching, Jersey Shore emulating knuckle draggers who believe that the friendly Nigerian who sent them an email is really going to share some of his wealth with them if only they hand over the bank details.


No argument there at all.

That is whom Apple and Microsoft (along with others) target


Understood - they design for the user base with the largest market share.

so it is time to accept that you, I and most people here are in the minority and move on with life.


I definitely accepted this long ago.

The frustration you're exhibiting I went through 15 years ago when I was a Linux fan boy dead certain if people just pulled their head out of their ass and spent some time learning how to use their computer they would see the benefits of Linux.


Indeed. The key here is that you can't teach someone that is unwilling to learn, and trying to force people to learn something usually has the opposite of the intended effect.

The sad reality is that as I've aged I realise that society will never change and to hold out the maybe some sort of collective consciousness occurs is simply putting far too much hope in humanity getting its collective shit together.


I occasionally find myself thinking along those lines as well, but it's almost always after I've had a frustrating time dealing with someone that, despite my best efforts, just didn't get what I was trying to show them. It sucks. And I certainly can relate.

However, society definitely will never change as long as this is the attitude of its population. I think the best way to change this attitude is by educating the population, which was the point I was trying to make in the last sentence of my first paragraph.

Reply Parent Score: 7

RE[7]: Comment by kaiwai
by earksiinni on Thu 16th Feb 2012 20:04 in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai"
earksiinni Member since:
2009-03-27

As for 'spoiled digital pussies' - get used to it. The world is designed for the lowest common denominator - the Nascar watching, Budweiser chugging, McDonalds chomping, SUV driving, credit card debt accumulating, mouth breathing, reality tv watching, Jersey Shore emulating knuckle draggers who believe that the friendly Nigerian who sent them an email is really going to share some of his wealth with them if only they hand over the bank details.


I finally understand why you post the things that you do, not just in this thread but in general.

The world has gradations, kaiwai. The evildoers are human as are the angels. There is a little bit of Voltaire present in NASCAR, a little bit of Christopher Hitchens in the Bible, a bit of kiwi in George W. Bush and a little bit of Dennis Ritchie in every iPad user. Try to understand this and see that this blog is trying to change some of the patterns you detest--and it may even have the power to. No need to be so cynical all the time, it grates on peoples' nerves here.

Thom's point is as clear as day. Talking about the future is not a "conspiracy theory". It's called "talking about the future". I don't think that you honestly believe that this doesn't an incremental step in the major consumer OS vendors' increasing control of desktop PC's.

That said, I personally don't think Thom and commenters here give enough credit to the "average user". As the Arab spring has reminded us most recently, totalitarianism is both real and a myth: real in its brutal effects, myth in its claim to totality. People will keep resisting, and they'll even become aware of their resistance and that there is something that should be resisted. *Ahem* The eventual American intervention in Nazi Europe is not the only kind of salvation that exists; people will always rise up.

For the record: I have always said that if FOSS got some spine and earnestly tried to sell the public on the importance of libertas in software they would do phenomenally well. Programmers love love love to hate themselves and act condescendingly toward the rest of the world, saying that the "average user" will never understand. This has never been anything more than about job security (in a broad sense): as long as you say people won't get it, then there's no chance that they will, and so your mastery and puffed up sense of self-worth will continue unharmed.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai
by WorknMan on Thu 16th Feb 2012 22:53 in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

They've taken away the ability for people to stray beyond what Apple approves. Do you really think regular users are going to mess with a scary security setting?


They won't, and that's the whole point. Look, we all know the real reason why Apple is doing this, just like when they said that Flash wasn't going to be on the iPhone. However, in the case of Flash, what ended up being good for Apple was also good for end users, since Flash is going away. This ultimately benefits end users, because the lack of Flash support on a device won't be a hindrance, and because Flash itself is a security nightmare, with more holes than Swiss cheese.

And I also think that limiting apps to the Mac app store will ultimately benefit your average Joe, especially where security is involved.

And how do you think regular users become knowledgeable users? Exactly - they become so by venturing beyond the regular capabilities of the software they're using.


See, that's the beauty of this setup - regular users don't NEED to become knowledgeable users; if they can use their computers to do what they need to get done without any voodoo involved, so much the better.

I would have never grown up to become a computer geek had I not had the ability to fcuk shit up. We're raising the digital equivalent of padded playground floor kids - you know those new playgrounds with bouncy floors so poor Timmy can't get an auwie when he tumbles off the jungle gym?


In the old days, when people fcuked up their computers, they figured out how to fix it. These days, when my friends and family fcuk up their computers, they call me and *I* have to deal with it. So anything that reduces my tech support calls is a win, as far as I'm concerned. I have little doubt that Apple is going to make it harder to turn this switch off, and to that I say GOOD. The harder it is for the computer-illiterate people that I have to provide tech support for to hurt themselves, the happier I am.

But hey, I understand the concern... what if Apple/MS make it impossible to turn this switch off?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope_argument

It's the same kind of bullshit logic that says we shouldn't allow gay marriage to happen because it will lead to people molesting small children and marrying their horses.

Look, I think this is a good idea overall, and I hate when good ideas are shot down because people are afraid that some other thing will eventually happen as a result. Well, if it does happen and they make it mandatory, we'll deal with it at that time. As it stands, I think this kind of thing will result in people actually being able to USE their computer productively without having to know how it works. For whatever reason, the very thought of this seems to offend most geeks, like we're making things too easy. 'Hey, we had to walk butt-naked in the snow when it was 40 degrees below zero just to make our computers work, so why shouldn't everybody else?'

Reply Parent Score: -1

RE[7]: Comment by kaiwai
by _txf_ on Thu 16th Feb 2012 23:22 in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai"
_txf_ Member since:
2008-03-17

So anything that reduces my tech support calls is a win, as far as I'm concerned. I have little doubt that Apple is going to make it harder to turn this switch off, and to that I say GOOD. The harder it is for the computer-illiterate people that I have to provide tech support for to hurt themselves, the happier I am.


So... How do you become computer literate? Does the knowledge suddenly appear in your brain?

It's the same kind of bullshit logic that says we shouldn't allow gay marriage to happen because it will lead to people molesting small children and marrying their horses.


Um...No (I can't believe you're equating the two things). There is no evidence of that. There is evidence of lockdown (see Metro, iOS).

As it stands, I think this kind of thing will result in people actually being able to USE their computer productively without having to know how it works. For whatever reason, the very thought of this seems to offend most geeks, like we're making things too easy.


Here is a hopelessly convoluted analogy:

If you have a room with a door quite a few people are going to want to explore the other side of those doors; Some will like it, others won't, and many will be scared to even open the door. Now If you put a wall in the way, how many will go see the other side? How many will even know?

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[7]: Comment by kaiwai
by Nth_Man on Fri 17th Feb 2012 10:31 in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai"
Nth_Man Member since:
2010-05-16

and marrying their horses.

I don't know if to laugh or cry:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21768663/ns/world_news-weird_news/t/man...

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai
by redshift on Fri 17th Feb 2012 03:50 in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai"
redshift Member since:
2006-05-06

They've taken away the ability for people to stray beyond what Apple approves. Do you really think regular users are going to mess with a scary security setting?


Roadblocks are problems, not guardrails.

I don't see such a problem with safe defaults. I would prefer that people who don't know what they are doing leave that switch off in the first place. As long as they have an override for those who care to learn about and understand their computing environment, I am fine with it. It is not much different than requiring that users press option to see there library folder to keep the casual users from jacking up their settings.

I have a bigger question as to why their firewall ships in the off state on lion.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai
by blitze on Fri 17th Feb 2012 11:11 in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai"
blitze Member since:
2006-09-15

Don't worry Thom, as the Australian tourist to Asia in search of non cotton wooled experiences has show, with a few resultant deaths in boundary pushing, the same will happen with Tech.

Personally it would be nice to lock all these cotton wool brigaders away so as not hinder the progress of mankind but, it is going to take a lot before nannied West wakes the F up and gets over itself. I do believe this lot will happen quickly as the systems of the West implode under the weight of corruption and gov control much like the Soviet System imploded, cause enough of us said enough!

The irony will be those countries the media in the West called authoritarian and lacking in freedoms that will rocket ahead past the West and allow their people to have non locked down freedoms which the West is kissing bye bye.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai
by brichpmr on Sun 19th Feb 2012 15:37 in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai"
brichpmr Member since:
2006-04-22

They've taken away the ability for people to stray beyond what Apple approves. Do you really think regular users are going to mess with a scary security setting?

And how do you think regular users become knowledgeable users? Exactly - they become so by venturing beyond the regular capabilities of the software they're using. By trying to stray form the carved path and explore - and large groups of people will now never get to do this exploring because it's locked up behind scary security switches and the like.

I would have never grown up to become a computer geek had I not had the ability to fcuk shit up. We're raising the digital equivalent of padded playground floor kids - you know those new playgrounds with bouncy floors so poor Timmy can't get an auwie when he tumbles off the jungle gym?

We're raising a generation of spoiled digital pussies. Fcuk ups are the best teaching moments.


I read this differently. Apple will make it easier for users to install curated/signed apps as a default; but will also let any user easily install any other apps they wish. You will still have the freedom to f*ck up your computer as you please....so, please, knock it off with your tribal wisdom.

Reply Parent Score: 1