Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 24th Feb 2012 17:53 UTC
General Development "In this blog post (and the one that will follow) we'd like to introduce a few of the broad reaching experience improvements that we've delivered in Visual Studio 11. We've worked hard on them over the last two years and believe that they will significantly improve the experience that you will have with Visual Studio."
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RE[4]: For C++
by vivainio on Fri 24th Feb 2012 21:24 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: For C++"
Member since:

Because that's the whole point - and what the I in IDE stands for - of an Integrated development environment as opposed to a tricked-out text editor.

"Integrated" doesn't mean it should include all the features under the sun in it. Only the features you need to produce code (edit, code complete, build, deploy, debug).

Reply Parent Score: 11

RE[5]: For C++
by tylerdurden on Sat 25th Feb 2012 01:42 in reply to "RE[4]: For C++"
tylerdurden Member since:

Some people consider Testing, collaboration, version management, etc. to be fundamental in the software development cycle.

Testing, for example, takes as much time/bulk of effort as the code writing in plenty of projects.

I am not claiming the "integrated" approach is the only way, but some so-called "IDEs" are really "IPDEs" (Integrated Partial Development Environments).

I normally don't care much for microsoft products, but their development environments are top notch.

Edited 2012-02-25 01:44 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[6]: For C++
by Soulbender on Sat 25th Feb 2012 03:29 in reply to "RE[5]: For C++"
Soulbender Member since:

version management

Curious, is VS still stuck with the horrid SourceSafe?
Is there any integration with actually useful version control systems?

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[6]: For C++
by vivainio on Sat 25th Feb 2012 07:13 in reply to "RE[5]: For C++"
vivainio Member since:

Some people consider Testing, collaboration, version management, etc. to be fundamental in the software development cycle.

And professionals are perfectly capable of using discrete tools for these purposes.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[6]: For C++
by snowbender on Sat 25th Feb 2012 09:18 in reply to "RE[5]: For C++"
snowbender Member since:

Personally, I think Visual Studio (Professional edition) is completely useless without ReSharper. Coming from a Java background (using Eclipse, Intellij IDEA) I was honestly shocked how primitive Visual Studio was compared to Java IDEs. Compared to _free_ Java IDEs.

But take into account that I was/am using Visual Studio 2008, Professional edition. I don't know how much better is the Ultimate edition.

I also had to program for BizTalk Server 2009. I am honestly shocked that Microsoft gets away with selling that piece of software for huge amounts of money, while the Visual Studio support is very very primitive, and f*ing buggy. Yes, there are a couple of hotfixes to lessen the pain, but they never went to the trouble of releasing a service pack. Also, install on 64-bit Windows server is not smooth either. For install on 64-bit, one has to fetch hotfixes too. Amazing.

Finally, Team Foundation Server... if you consider the version control part of TFS top notch, then either you don't know any better, you never worked on a big team (always needing to lock source files ?!?), or well.. you must use it in a different way than what I've seen. We use subversion in our company and we need to install a third-party plugin for support inside Visual Studio. It also does not seem to come with built-in support for git. You take any decent Java IDE, and it'll come with support for several version control systems out of the box.

But yeah... if you chose Microsoft, you have to follow the microsoft way for everything.

But honestly... Visual Studio a top notch quality IDE? Come on, ReSharper from JetBrains would not be so successfull if that were the case. Did you ever use any other IDEs than Visual Studio?

Btw, take SQL Server Management Studio from Microsoft.. you also think that is a top notch environment to write SQL? Honestly, try to install the SQL Prompt plugin from Red Gate and experience decent SQL completion.

I really think you were not exposed to other tools than the Microsoft ones. Microsoft's development environments may seem top notch when you're coming from compiling on the commandline, and using notepad. But not anymore when you've opened your eyes to better tools.

Btw... MSBuild.. Microsoft's build tool. It seems heavily inspired by Ant, which was Java's favorite build tool up to several years ago. The Java world moved on to Maven. The advantage of Maven is that it also does dependency management. Microsoft development environments do not come out of the box with dependency management. Microsoft supports the open source project NuGet which is a (primitive) attempt at doing dependency management for .NET. We switched to another open source project "OpenWrap" for dependency management. It is not as popular as NuGet, because it's not based on the "click-click-click" mentality of the standard Microsoft developer, but it is a lot more powerful and has a lot more possibilities towards the future. (It also supports run-time dependency management.) NuGet is basically an addon to fetch a dependency from a server on the internet.

So, please, please, don't tell me that Microsoft development environments are "top notch". Check out the world, and open your eyes to non-Microsoft products.

Edited 2012-02-25 09:29 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 9

RE[6]: For C++
by Nth_Man on Sun 26th Feb 2012 19:54 in reply to "RE[5]: For C++"
Nth_Man Member since:

version management

Qt Creator has that, of course.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[5]: For C++
by gonzo on Sat 25th Feb 2012 19:07 in reply to "RE[4]: For C++"
gonzo Member since:

Why not?

If you don't need some feature, just don't use it.

But when you need it, it is there, WELL INTEGRATED into your workflow.

Reply Parent Score: 2