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RE[7]: Not so fast
by einr on Wed 28th Mar 2012 07:34 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Not so fast"
einr
Member since:
2012-02-15

Right in that screenshot: why does Task Manager have a different menu bar than Visual Studio, to begin with? What's with the orange Firefox menu in the top left; what guidelines of anything ever does THAT conform to?

I'd adress some other things, particularly with Visual Studio, but what you've taken a picture of is close to a best-case scenario so I'm not going to bother. Instead, I'm going to play your game and pull up some other common apps:

http://i.imgur.com/Sg5LH.jpg

Let's see what we have here:
* Security Essentials draws its own UI that looks like... I don't even know.
* Outlook draws not only its own widgets that do not conform to the system theme, but even its own title bar and close/minimize/maximize buttons
* So does Photoshop (whose UI is a mess of Flash and other non-compliant random stuff that looks more like Mac OS 7 than anything)
* The standard colour picker is still identical to the one in Windows 3.0 (1989) -- note the font. MS Sans Serif.
* Log viewer has toolbars and XP-style icons & layout. And where do these gradients come from exactly?
* Paint has ribbons that do not honour system colour/style settings
* You can have fun counting the number of different UI fonts used if you want! I spot at least Segoe UI, MS Sans Serif, Tahoma, and that Adobe UI font. Can you find more?!

This is a MESS. It looks like GARBAGE.

Edited 2012-03-28 07:37 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 15

RE[8]: Not so fast
by lucas_maximus on Wed 28th Mar 2012 09:03 in reply to "RE[7]: Not so fast"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

And you have chosen the worst examples. I choose 4 different programs from 4 different devs that all pretty look to me about the same and have similar UI concepts.

The orange icon on firefox, really that is a complaint? You got the crap outlook theme from 2007 loaded (Word btw looks amazing). And PhotoShop ... Oh comon.

You are using Office 2007, Office 2010 fits perfectly in with Windows 7 theme.

Your only argument is the colours, not the fact that there are many of the same UI paradigms with the same look and feel across applications.

If you use on Linux GTK apps with XFCE, things looks good. If you have a dark theme, Eclipse looks like arse and pretty much anything that isn't GTK, because it won't pick up your theme. Which is basically the complaint you are making about Windows.

Then with pretty much every GTK and QT app there is this weird mouse feedback when clicking anything (you need to be much more precise than on Windows), that I can't really put my finger on that feels pretty odd.

Lets not pretend that from my original post all the other points still stand.

This is what pisses me off about Linux supporters, the dodge themeing on Windows is one of the very few problems of the OS (if it is a problem at all).

However most of the problems with Linux can be found throughout the system and is confounded by the almost limitless choice.

The only places Linux is anygood is on embedded and server. The latter because it doesn't pretend not to be unix and the former because it completely hides the underlying OS much like MacOSX/iOS hides the fact that it is still unix.

Edited 2012-03-28 09:06 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[9]: Not so fast
by einr on Wed 28th Mar 2012 09:33 in reply to "RE[8]: Not so fast"
einr Member since:
2012-02-15

And you have chosen the worst examples

I've chosen very common apps, some of which I work in daily. Admittedly I don't use Log Viewer much, and I launched Paint because it was the first example of a ribbon UI I could think of -- but the point of showing those is that these are apps that are included with the OS and it is reasonable to assume that they should therefore adhere to Windows UI standards. If Microsoft does not care about its own standards, why should Adobe or Mozilla or anyone else?


You are using Office 2007, Office 2010 fits perfectly in with Windows 7 theme.

That is not an excuse. Applications that run on multiple OS versions should look like the host OS and adhere to its guidelines. They should not just look like whatever crap the app dev team feels like, or whatever the latest OS version looks like at their time of release.


Your only argument is the colours, not the fact that there are many of the same UI paradigms with the same look and feel across applications.

Nope. There are clearly different paradigms, too. Some apps have replaced menu bars with other systems, some haven't. Some have tool bars, some have ribbons, some have neither. There's functional, not just aesthetic discrepancy.


If you use on Linux GTK apps with XFCE, things looks good. If you have a dark theme, Eclipse looks like arse and pretty much anything that isn't GTK, because it won't pick up your theme.

I will agree that the look and feel split between GTK+ and QT is a problem. Not for me personally so much, as almost everything I use in Linux is GTK+ except VirtualBox and maybe something else that uses QT.

But sure, it is a problem and I don't think I've ever said that it's not. It used to be worse not long ago, though, when you had to consider GTK 1 vs 2, QT, Motif, TK, FLTK, Athena... At this point, there are only 2 major toolkits in use, and the major distributions are working to consolidate their user experiences into something coherent.


This is what pisses me off about Linux supporters, the dodge themeing on Windows is one of the very few problems of the OS

Yes, but it was one of the things you singled out as being bad about desktop Linux, so I wanted to demonstrate that the grass is not necessarily greener in Windowsland. Indeed, I think Windows 7 is mostly okay otherwise.


Lets not pretend that from my original post all the other points still stand.

I don't intend to argue those points, in my opinion they have varying degrees of validity but UI design is a favourite topic of mine so that is what I chose to focus on ;)

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[8]: Not so fast
by tuma324 on Wed 28th Mar 2012 17:43 in reply to "RE[7]: Not so fast"
tuma324 Member since:
2010-04-09

I read Wayland prefers client side decorations.

Won't Linux have this problem when Wayland is adopted? (applications choosing how they want to look).

Edited 2012-03-28 17:46 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2