Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sun 29th Apr 2012 12:22 UTC
Apple "Apple, the world's most profitable technology company, doesn't design iPhones here. It doesn't run AppleCare customer service from this city. And it doesn't manufacture MacBooks or iPads anywhere nearby. Yet, with a handful of employees in a small office here in Reno, Apple has done something central to its corporate strategy: it has avoided millions of dollars in taxes in California and 20 other states." Sure, this is all legal for companies to do (and Apple obviously isn't alone) but it does show you how much sense of morality companies have. Answer: none. But hey, it's legal, and the law is never wrong, right?
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RE[3]: But taxation is theft
by rycamor on Sun 29th Apr 2012 16:00 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: But taxation is theft"
Member since:

Finally, a good argument. If you checked the other portion of this thread you'll know why I am so relieved by this post.

Yes, I agree that the US government has been diverting tax money to the wrong areas, but that means it is up to the US citizens to change the government's ways, not avoid taxes.

Starving a bully government may mean there would be less money for pointless wars, but it would also mean less money for the other important areas that are under-funded, like relieving foreign oil dependence, or improving the health-care so that poor people can afford them, or improving the education system so that people like Jesuspower would actually make good arguments.

Change the government, that's the answer.

You're young, I can see that. Your answer is for the government to start funding MORE other things! And somehow trust that this same government will voluntarily stop spending the money where we don't want. Look at history and tell me where that has ever worked. The European Union, which we Americans have been told for decades is the gold standard of enlightened socialism, is in a shambles, and will likely collapse within our lifetimes.

Right now, I can guarantee you that there are literally thousands of brilliant ideas about how to solve our energy/food/health problems that are actively being squashed by our government. Individuals solve problems. Governments create them.

The simple fact is, the more power you give government, the more it and the citizens will be corrupted. Government has absolutely no incentive to do things efficiently or to actually solve the problems that it is expected to solve. Think about that for an hour. The reality in history is that there is only one type of problem that can be solved by government: how to restrict one person from violating another (essentially, punishing theft and violence, and enforcing contracts). Note that this is one of the few problems that government is not rewarded for prolonging (ideally). Everything else works against that. The real problems of the world have been solved by individuals and groups of people who have an incentive to find a better way to do things. Computer geeks should be among the first to achieve this insight.

Limit the government. That's the only answer.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

--Thomas Jefferson

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[4]: But taxation is theft
by LeeZH on Sun 29th Apr 2012 17:25 in reply to "RE[3]: But taxation is theft"
LeeZH Member since:

If you look at NASA, it's achievements and how it has inspired a whole generation of thinkers it is hard to agree with your point. As an passionate engineering student I can attest to that.

Maybe it's because I'm young; maybe it's because I haven't experienced the world in its absolute cruelty - but I have absolute belief that with the right people in the right jobs the government can be the best thing the world can offer.

All those efforts in improving green energy are being snuffed out by big oil companies, and it is very frustrating - trust me, I know. This is happening because the government let them but we know that all this is driven greed and the lack of principles in improving mankind. If we had the right people in the right jobs - if we had people who would stand by their principles - this wouldn't happen.

There are so many great ideas out in the world, but we can't achieve them alone as individuals. The government is our best bet because all corporations think of is making money. I feel like bursting into rage every time I hear that phrase "But will it sell?". If we had the right government, the question the people would ask instead is "But will it improve our lives?". We pay our taxes in hope that in hope the country would improve, and this is what should happen.

The government can be the worst thing or the best thing to happen to mankind, depending on how it's run. If we could change the system, make the government see that improving the world as a whole is beneficial, the latter would happen.

Maybe I'm just a naive padawan; maybe I'm just too optimistic - but without hope for the people in the world, what's the point?

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[5]: But taxation is theft
by rycamor on Sun 29th Apr 2012 17:50 in reply to "RE[4]: But taxation is theft"
rycamor Member since:

Yes, you are naive. At least a corporation's goals are clear and understandable, and it does not achieve them by force (except when it co-opts the government, as our corporations have). Government, no matter how idealistic its origins, will always be co-opted by those with less morals and greater ability to lie. It is a given, so it is in our interest to keep government as small and simple as possible.

I hate to burst your bubble, but even NASA is not a perfect example of human achievement. It is a giant, bloated, archaic organization that has finally--just this decade--given up trying to build the spaceships of the 1970s. I do think that there are times when "anomalies" happen and government produces something positive, but they are vastly overshadowed by the negatives. Honestly, how much money has our government spent on getting into space, and how much of that was taken from private individuals who could have banded together and done the same without any coercion of the citizen via taxes? And they probably could have done it far more cheaply.

Americans have largely been sold a carefully-wrapped story about our government and its history. Start digging in for the details in any area--The Civil War, John Dewey and our public schools, the creation of the Federal Reserve, the Great Depression, you name it--and you start finding lots of dark, depressing undercurrents.

Americans as a people consume history and stories of our leaders the way they consume fast food: keep it simple, never question the source, or the complex machinery that goes into delivering that simple few bites, never stop and think about what it is really doing to them.

Reply Parent Score: 0