Linked by Eugenia Loli on Mon 28th May 2012 03:53 UTC
General Development FuriousFanBoys interviews Ben Goertzel regarding Artificial Intelligence. Ben started the OpenCog project (an open sourced AI non-profit), acts as an adviser to the Singularity University, and currently bounces back between Hong Kong and Maryland building in-game AI.
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RE[7]: Cursing Computer
by kwan_e on Mon 28th May 2012 15:05 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Cursing Computer"
kwan_e
Member since:
2007-02-18

I don't know how I could have been more clear; you seem to operate on the assumption that if you have said it once to your satisfaction, you are not going to inflect what you want to commnicate as further dialogue flows, dialogue which you engaged me in, not the other way about!


Sorry I didn't cater directly to the way you communicate. Here, I thought Thom was a main contributor, but it turns out, no, you are the one everyone should know how to talk to as if it should be common knowledge.

What else do you have to go by other than your own linguistic conceptualisations? How can you conceptualise something that has meaning for humans that would have no basis in human thought, human language?


That is no excuse to then conclude something has no consciousness. You seem to forget that it wasn't very long ago historically that people of a different colour were considered not as intelligent or as conscious as others due to their inability to grasp English.

Would you apply it the other way round, would you defend a machine's evaluation of our not being smart perhaps despite the potential pitfalls of its own machine-mind constraints? Or would you be biased and consider it would be an a priori greater intelligence and consciousness, since it would be derived from a machine complex?


How is this even "the other way around" from what I argue? The "other way around" is what I, and many others have propose: what if an alien race for more advanced than us doesn't consider us to be conscious?

If there isn't a consciousess that we can comprehend, then it's effectively and formally absent from the human point of view. Proof, if any, would have to be de facto admissible on a human basis.


So a neuron can rightly claim that there is no consciousness beyond neurons, even though we know there is?


This seems to presuppose you have already categorised us as subsumed by the Internetwork - a nice metaphor witha certain ring to it but that's all it is, a figure of speech, I doubt you can 'prove' this either, yet you seem convinced of the argument.


Or, you could treat it as an honest open-ended question as it was intended? How about doing that? Instead of seeing everything as something to prove how much better than others you are with your attempt to look intelligent?

While I still have pencil and paper in hand, no machine will have dominated the information world; I for one think, and do not process algorithms.


Prove that you think.

Talking to a chatbot would make more sense than continuing with your rather curious premiss that already sees us as second-tier creatures, dependent on machines for our very definition, or the validity of our mindfulness in all the connotations of that word.


What's wrong with positing the idea that we may be immersed in a wider consciousness?

And NOWHERE did I put us as second-tier creatures. NOWHERE did I say ANYTHING about dependence on machines.

You argument basically amounts to an Appeal to Emotion. You don't like the idea that you're not the top of the consciousness food chain, so therefore, you don't even consider any honest questions about it.

Again, I ask, does a neuron know of the consciousness of the brain its in? Can you answer that? And using your answer, can you then answer why it cannot similarly apply to a human and the human individual's place in the network?

Maybe you don't like the idea of us being "second-tier" creatures, whatever that means, but the universe doesn't care what you like. The fact you can stoop to such an argument puts you squarely with creationists, as they deny evolution because they don't like the place humanity has in that world view.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: Cursing Computer
by Drumhellar on Mon 28th May 2012 19:04 in reply to "RE[7]: Cursing Computer"
Drumhellar Member since:
2005-07-12


You argument basically amounts to an Appeal to Emotion. You don't like the idea that you're not the top of the consciousness food chain, so therefore, you don't even consider any honest questions about it.

Again, I ask, does a neuron know of the consciousness of the brain its in? Can you answer that? And using your answer, can you then answer why it cannot similarly apply to a human and the human individual's place in the network?


While you point out his Appeal to Emotion, you completely ignore that you are using an Argument by Analogy.

No, the neuron does not know that it is part of a whole, but the neuron is not capable of knowing, or even imagining that it is. It is a fixed-function electrochemical device that processes chemical inputs.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[9]: Cursing Computer
by kwan_e on Mon 28th May 2012 23:23 in reply to "RE[8]: Cursing Computer"
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

While you point out his Appeal to Emotion, you completely ignore that you are using an Argument by Analogy.


What argument? Why can't something be an honest question? A question that happens to use an analogy?

No, the neuron does not know that it is part of a whole, but the neuron is not capable of knowing, or even imagining that it is. It is a fixed-function electrochemical device that processes chemical inputs.


So? How can we tell WE'RE not part of a wider consciousness? Again, you both make the IMPLICIT argument that our consciousness is the most expressed form there is and that anything we can't recognized is therefore not a consciousness.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: Cursing Computer
by orfanum on Mon 28th May 2012 19:58 in reply to "RE[7]: Cursing Computer"
orfanum Member since:
2006-06-02

Oh dear, you don't seem to want to answer my questions either, do you - so much for openness: I am sorry but you fundamentally make humans the equivalent of neurons in a greater scheme - you are starting out from a point that is literally and formally unprovable and not demonstrable; it's less of an open-ended question than a figment of the imagination: you might ask yourself who or what is behind all those neurons that are apparently casting about unmoored in that mind of yours casting grand comparisons between things that are not observable. A thinker! My word - either they (the neurons) have consciousness of the entire operative mind resolving such things to be effective in this way or something else motivates them that isn't them and is apart from them (a bit like a creator: gasp! You are the creator of thoughts!!). In neither way is it good for your argument.

And puhlease; just go ahead and call me a Nazi; sheesh, creationists are just so yesterday.

Yours, recklessly.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[9]: Cursing Computer
by kwan_e on Mon 28th May 2012 23:39 in reply to "RE[8]: Cursing Computer"
kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

I am sorry but you fundamentally make humans the equivalent of neurons in a greater scheme


"Boo hoo! I don't like to consider the possibility that my consciousness is not the highest expression of the idea! Boo hoo!"

- you are starting out from a point that is literally and formally unprovable and not demonstrable; it's less of an open-ended question than a figment of the imagination:


Have you considered the possibility that a lot of scientific breakthroughs come about through the imagination of an alternative hypothesis?

A figment of the imagination can be used as an open ended question.

You do know that you've just proved an earlier point I've made that some people think in what basically amounts to greedy-depth-first-search. You've proved an earlier point I made that not even humans can think like what we think humans are capable of. You've proved that you're nothing more than a greedy-depth-first-search algorithm.

you might ask yourself who or what is behind all those neurons that are apparently casting about unmoored in that mind of yours casting grand comparisons between things that are not observable. A thinker! My word - either they (the neurons) have consciousness of the entire operative mind resolving such things to be effective in this way or something else motivates them that isn't them and is apart from them (a bit like a creator: gasp! You are the creator of thoughts!!).


That does not in any way answer any question.

In neither way is it good for your argument.


What argument? Who's making an argument? It seems you are the only one making an argument. It's obvious now: you won't even allow honest open questions because they offend your sensibilities.

Reply Parent Score: 2