Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 11th Jun 2012 00:38 UTC, submitted by judgen
Windows "Microsoft recently extended 'It Just Works' compatibility for Visual Basic 6 applications through the full lifetime of Windows 8. Visual Basic 6 first shipped in 1998, so its apps will have at least 24 years of supported lifetime. Contrast that with the Microsoft .NET Framework 1.0 (2002), which is incompatible with Windows 7 (2009)."
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RE[4]: kill -9 now...
by galvanash on Tue 12th Jun 2012 22:57 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: kill -9 now..."
galvanash
Member since:
2006-01-25

Ahhh...see, just like those that use CLI think themselves "better" than everyone else so too are you getting all upset because someone DARED to say the word programmer when they aren't talking about the language of your choice.


Its not the language. I actually don't have anything against personal language choice - it is the ways in which Microsoft originally chose to extend the language for modern usage which caused all the grief. VB.NET? I have no issues with it at all. I personally don't "like" it (I much prefer C#), but to each their own. It is not fundamentally broken - VB6 is.

I'm not railing against classic VB because I don't like it - I am railing against it because it is _broken_ - it creates _broken_ programmers who learn all the wrong things and none of the right things, and it creates _broken_ products that can't be supported.

If you like to use it to solve your own problems I don't much care, that is your business. But for the good of the industry it needs to go away as a professional tool, at least as far as supported code bases.

It is like smoking... Smokers don't like hearing that it is bad for them, but that doesn't make it not true. VB6 is bad for you. But more importantly, it is bad for everyone else because code has a tendency to stick around like gum on the bottom of a desk - it is a nightmare to find and get rid of. It is bad enough we all have to deal with it's legacy - the last thing we need is new code written in VB6...

Microsoft is finally starting to treat application development for what it is - a fairly complex process that requires tools that allow programmers to impose rigid processes on themselves to get good results. .NET has those tools, VB6 doesn't and never did.

kinda childish if you ask me, I'd say there is no different between that and the word mechanic, where one can be a mechanic only capable of working on your average Dodge or you can be a mechanic capable of working on formula one. That doesn't mean the formula one mechanic should get all butthurt if someone calls the Dodge guy a mechanic, after all he does get paid better and should frankly be happy with what he has.


Unfortunately, the software industry doesn't have Board Certifications like Doctors or the Bar like Lawyers - all we have is stupid vendor certifications that don't mean anything. I expect eventually we will, but until then then I will happily try and defend the label as best I can. Being a professional programmer carries with it (or at least should) a sense of responsibility - you are writing things that can affect people in very unpredictable ways. There is nothing wrong with hacking or hobby development - but it that is not what I am talking about. VB6 is simply noot good enough to be used professionally - it is simply broken.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: kill -9 now...
by jptros on Wed 13th Jun 2012 01:27 in reply to "RE[4]: kill -9 now..."
jptros Member since:
2005-08-26

Microsoft is finally starting to treat application development for what it is - a fairly complex process that requires tools that allow programmers to impose rigid processes on themselves to get good results. .NET has those tools, VB6 doesn't and never did.


Except that large Win Forms applications that have to work with large datasets and have lots of user controls perform like garbage and even worse under Windows 7. VB6 on the other hand, as ugly as the code might be, handles things just fine so next time you feel like preaching about why VB6 should be dumped please provide us with an example of a RAD environment that does more than produce prettier code. Yes, C# and even VB.Net are much better languages from the developers point of view but the bottom line is they haven't filled the shoes that VB6 currently wear which is why no one is going to chunk their investment in favor of a complete rewrite for what? A new data entry application that lags, pauses and flickers when the datasets start getting some meat? The code looks nicer and the error handling is much better though! Seriously though, if these terrible VB6 programmers did that bad of job when they wrote the applications they would have already died but the truth is, the code has been written well enough that people have been able to maintain it for all these years that Microsoft feels a need to still support running them on newer versions of windows. Yes, there are turds floating around in the toilet bowl but they get flushed usually sooner than later. We (professional developers) all get some steaming pile of crap dumped on us at least once in our careers and the syntax ain't always Visual Basic.

Edited 2012-06-13 01:29 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: kill -9 now...
by galvanash on Wed 13th Jun 2012 02:08 in reply to "RE[5]: kill -9 now..."
galvanash Member since:
2006-01-25

Except that large Win Forms applications that have to work with large datasets and have lots of user controls perform like garbage and even worse under
Windows 7.


THAT is what you bring up to defend VB6???

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2703681/winforms-vs-wpf

http://10rem.net/blog/2010/11/16/windows-forms-developers-tell-me-a...

Winforms is a dead end. Use WPF. Or use Qt with native bindings if you feel adventurous.

Your complaint is a tooling issue, not a programming issue - winforms is not the only option available for a .NET developer and in fact is probably the poorest one.

Sure winforms is easy, so is VB6 - the point is both of them have the same problem... They scale poorly with developer need, you hit walls with either of them that cannot be easily overcome. That is why Microsoft is desperately trying to get their developers to see the light and stop using these technologies...

If you simply can't stomach the MVC/MVVM paradigm Delphi is still around if you have the money for it and want something more like VB6 but with "teh snappy". It was and still is far faster than any version of VB as far as the resulting UI performance goes (that includes VB6). Hell, it is faster than VB6 by pretty much any measure, and it is fairly portable to boot. The feature set and layout control in Delphi are about an order of magnitude more flexible than VB6 every was - but it is the exact same development workflow as far as how the GUI stuff works.

VB6 forms being "fast" is a side-effect of it being almost 15 years old and woefully lacking anything resembling a modern feature set. It is archaic. That is not a strength...

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: kill -9 now...
by moondevil on Wed 13th Jun 2012 07:27 in reply to "RE[4]: kill -9 now..."
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

Unfortunately, the software industry doesn't have Board Certifications like Doctors or the Bar like Lawyers - all we have is stupid vendor certifications that don't mean anything. I expect eventually we will, but until then then I will happily try and defend the label as best I can. Being a professional programmer carries with it (or at least should) a sense of responsibility - you are writing things that can affect people in very unpredictable ways. There is nothing wrong with hacking or hobby development - but it that is not what I am talking about. VB6 is simply noot good enough to be used professionally - it is simply broken.


Couldn't agree more. In my home country, Portugal, we do have Software Engineering certification requirements, but since it is not controlled, very few make it.

I do expect from anyone working in the industry the same set of knowledge as when I go to repair a car, change plumbing, to a lawyer, and so on.

The persons need to have they knowledge validated, and not be a "Sunday Programmer".

Do you thrust a "Sunday Mechanic" to fix your car's brakes?

There should be a path for people to learn how to program, but that is all.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: kill -9 now...
by zima on Wed 13th Jun 2012 12:26 in reply to "RE[5]: kill -9 now..."
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Don't we have universities for that? And at least in some (I guess most) EU countries it's hard to get a ~serious (where it matters) programming job without a degree.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: kill -9 now...
by lucas_maximus on Wed 13th Jun 2012 18:43 in reply to "RE[4]: kill -9 now..."
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Unfortunately, the software industry doesn't have Board Certifications like Doctors or the Bar like Lawyers - all we have is stupid vendor certifications that don't mean anything. I expect eventually we will, but until then then I will happily try and defend the label as best I can. Being a professional programmer carries with it (or at least should) a sense of responsibility - you are writing things that can affect people in very unpredictable ways. There is nothing wrong with hacking or hobby development - but it that is not what I am talking about. VB6 is simply noot good enough to be used professionally - it is simply broken.


And how would you enforce any of this and why does it matter?

During my whole degree I was working using PHP (Web) or Java and Oracle SQL.

The tech I am using now is .NET and I don't write any SQL anymore. The only thing I carried over was OOP and being able to think in "Sets" for SQL based queries.

Also I know many programmers that have no degree in Computer Science or Software Engineering aka Self Taught programmers that are far better than those that have a degree.

Believe it or not Medical Students do to cram for exams and there are truly some crap doctors, they become GPs because they can't cut it in a Hospital.

The only significant skill you need as a developer over other people can be explained by this

"The difference between developers and those who aren't , is that developers expect the computer to do what they tell it and not what they want it to do".

Understanding that very subtle difference makes more difference than having some sort of degree or official certification.

Reply Parent Score: 2