Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 23rd Jun 2012 17:05 UTC
Windows Two links to Marco Arment within a few days? Well, if you make good points: "Many Windows developers were upset that iOS development had to be done on a Mac, but it didn't hurt Apple: the most important developers for iOS apps were already using Macs. But the success of Windows 8 and Windows Phone in the consumer space requires many of those consumer-product developers, now entrenched in the Apple ecosystem, to care so much about Windows development that they want to use Windows to develop for it. How likely is that?" As usual a bit too Apple-centric (he implies - as explicit as possible while still being implicit - that only iOS developers can create great applications), but his point still stands. Judging by the abysmal quality of Microsoft's own Metro applications (Mail, Video, Music, People, IE10, etc.), even Microsoft doesn't know how to create great Metro applications.
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RE[5]: Comment by sagum
by Nelson on Sun 24th Jun 2012 03:27 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by sagum"
Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29


So was Honeycomb when it was demoed. So far it's another competitor, with a newer interpretation of UX/UI. No single tablet has succeeded when taking on iPad head to head, same goes for iPhone.


Honeycomb was really an embarrassment of a release. I think even reviews at the time acknowledged it didn't have what it took.

And guess what, not much has changed with ICS.


Can capitalize on the failures of iPad competition and can see success on tablets. Execution, execution, execution.


Microsoft wins by default, pretty soon like I said only a few OEMs will be even playing ball with Android tabs.

Especially more PC oriented OEMs who already have their bread and butter with Windows.


It forces a new UX on existing developers on PC and offers no audience for the tablet.(2 indisputable facts) Millions in install base is an enticing proposition, but question will be one of UX quality.


I honestly am of the opinion that a lot of the complaints are strict power user complaints which have no bearing with consumers.

Microsoft has gone into incredible detail in their blogs about the interaction studies they did while designing Windows 8. Funny how no one takes on those issues head on, but sticks to the same, tired "Its a bad UX" meme.


On the number of apps part Windows8 will be covered quite well and you probably know that it's not only the number of apps.


Metro makes it really easy to make high quality looking application. Its probably easier than on any other platform. Including iOS, including Android, including Windows Phone.

The story is a lot more complete. Its easier to use pre-canned animations, the performance of apps is dramatically better, Live tiles are precanned templates, etc.

A lot of the pain points WP7 dev had has been addressed marvelously.

Plus, and I think this is overlooked, this will be the FIRST Tablet since the iPad to have the Gaming chops to take on the iPad.

Android gaming is really a joke, but with Windows 8 the Game studios use the _very_ familiar DirectX APIs and can reuse existing tooling for Metro Style gaming.

I expect gaming on Windows 8 to be huge. Especially once devs get to play with the Xbox 360 Smart Glass APIs.


On tablet front: that was prior to Surface.


Surface changes nothing. OEMs are not going to drop Windows 8 because of it. They have no where else to go. Go back to Android? Yeah, like that's been working so well for them (rolls eyes).


On PC OS front: There is no other option for PC manufacturers.


A lot of the PC OS manufacturers are also going to be making tablets. Acer, HP, Dell, Asus, hell, even Samsung.


The second part will help Windows8 in regards to the quantity of apps, but we have evidence that success in one market does not necessarily translate to success in another.


I think it will carry over well, because apps written for WinRT run across both the PC and the tablet. So the ecosystem is bootstrapped. That's often a very significant inhibitor of progress.

Sure, part of it will be marketing and working the sales channel (Which PC OEMs are masterful at, mind you), but a large part of it is a healthy and growing ecosystem.

Windows 8 has the potential to have an addressable market in the hundreds of millions in just a year. Any developer who doesn't immediately hop on that train is wasting money.

This dwarfs Androids, dwards iOS. Microsoft sold 180 million copies of Windows Vista, and people hated that shit.

By virtue of being Windows, the ecosystem is almost guaranteed.


There is only 1 problem - Windows 8 is going against iPad. It has to bring viable disruption to the market. As good as Surface looks, it's not really that obviously great. The new iPad, however, is.


I'm on the fence about Surface, that will take real execution. I think Windows 8 as a whole. Surface, and all OEMs included can take a healthy chunk of the market.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by sagum
by remenic on Sun 24th Jun 2012 05:42 in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by sagum"
remenic Member since:
2005-07-06

The #1 reason for Direct X support on WP8: Microsoft's huge library of old XBox games, that would make a great addition to their game collection. In fact, their only killer feature. They'd be fools if they didn't port at least their most popular titles.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment by sagum
by Fergy on Sun 24th Jun 2012 06:30 in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by sagum"
Fergy Member since:
2006-04-10

The #1 reason for Direct X support on WP8: Microsoft's huge library of old XBox games, that would make a great addition to their game collection. In fact, their only killer feature. They'd be fools if they didn't port at least their most popular titles.

AFAIK Xbox doesn't use either windows or directx.

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[6]: Comment by sagum
by JAlexoid on Sun 24th Jun 2012 12:16 in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by sagum"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Microsoft wins by default, pretty soon like I said only a few OEMs will be even playing ball with Android tabs.

Especially more PC oriented OEMs who already have their bread and butter with Windows.

Well... Acer has broke the silence of the OEMs and it's not good for Microsoft. http://venturebeat.com/2012/06/23/acer-microsoft-criticism/

I honestly am of the opinion that a lot of the complaints are strict power user complaints which have no bearing with consumers.

I'm not saying that the first party UX is bad, I'm saying that that UX is still alien to most developers.

Android gaming is really a joke, but with Windows 8 the Game studios use the _very_ familiar DirectX APIs and can reuse existing tooling for Metro Style gaming.

My buddies at Unity Technologies say different. Direct3D is no critical feature.

Surface changes nothing. OEMs are not going to drop Windows 8 because of it.

For tablets, they might just drop it. Surface is no less sour than Google's Motorola acquisition.

I'm on the fence about Surface, that will take real execution. I think Windows 8 as a whole. Surface, and all OEMs included can take a healthy chunk of the market.

As I mentioned, there has to be the "in your face" disruptive feature. I yet to see it in Windows8, or in Surface.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[7]: Comment by sagum
by Flatland_Spider on Sun 24th Jun 2012 20:20 in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by sagum"
Flatland_Spider Member since:
2006-09-01

"Microsoft wins by default, pretty soon like I said only a few OEMs will be even playing ball with Android tabs.

Especially more PC oriented OEMs who already have their bread and butter with Windows.


Well... Acer has broke the silence of the OEMs and it's not good for Microsoft. http://venturebeat.com/2012/06/23/acer-microsoft-criticism/
"

From the article :"Instead, Ahrens would like to see Microsoft focus on the Windows 8 user experience and leave the hardware creation to its hardware partners."

The Windows OEMs create crappy hardware experiences, including Acer. Ahrens is just mad that MS is now producing a reference model that people will judge their hardware against. Their cheap, cut all corners hardware and stuffed to the gills with crapware software load is going to look pretty bad against the cherry picked stuff from MS.

As I mentioned, there has to be the "in your face" disruptive feature. I yet to see it in Windows8, or in Surface.


You're thinking consumer, and that's not who is going to buy this initially.

The disruptive feature is a full fledged Windows OS with printing, Active Directory integration, and Windows apps. This is answering the need of businesses that need a tablet that is more PC then phone.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[7]: Comment by sagum
by Nelson on Sun 24th Jun 2012 23:43 in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by sagum"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


Well... Acer has broke the silence of the OEMs and it's not good for Microsoft. http://venturebeat.com/2012/06/23/acer-microsoft-criticism/


They also mention they intend to STAY with Windows 8. Logically, they have no choice.


I'm not saying that the first party UX is bad, I'm saying that that UX is still alien to most developers.


I actually agree here, but Microsoft has the muscle to do intense training. They have developer code camps all over the country, and offer more dev support than any other company I can think of.

Also, it is especially hard to deviate from the standard UX of Windows 8 when writing an app. You have to actively go out of your way to violate principals on WinRT.

It was tons easier to make something look bad on Silverlight for Windows Phone.


My buddies at Unity Technologies say different. Direct3D is no critical feature.


Unity is peanuts in the gaming world. Sure, it's big on mobile because iOS doesn't have DirectX and they _need_ something there.

On Windows, there is Unreal, Havok, Source, CryEngine, etc. All of those toolchains use DirectX.

There is tons of developer knowledge on DirectX. It heavily outweighs OpenGL.

OpenGL lost this war about half of a decade ago. It recently found success on mobile because Microsoft floundered.


For tablets, they might just drop it. Surface is no less sour than Google's Motorola acquisition.


What are they going to do? Go to Android who hasn't performed well and is made by Google? (Who also has Motorola) Roll their own? No, and no.

Tablet OEMs are going to stay the course on Windows 8.


As I mentioned, there has to be the "in your face" disruptive feature. I yet to see it in Windows8, or in Surface.


The killer feature is the keyboard, the ability to run Windows apps, the enterprise support (This is highly instrumental, this with Windows Phone 8 is going to eat Blackberry's Lunch), the familiar UI across 360, Phone, Tablet, PC . Etc.)

Apple's approach to unifying their platforms I think is much more pigheaded.

Reply Parent Score: 2