Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 23rd Jun 2012 17:05 UTC
Windows Two links to Marco Arment within a few days? Well, if you make good points: "Many Windows developers were upset that iOS development had to be done on a Mac, but it didn't hurt Apple: the most important developers for iOS apps were already using Macs. But the success of Windows 8 and Windows Phone in the consumer space requires many of those consumer-product developers, now entrenched in the Apple ecosystem, to care so much about Windows development that they want to use Windows to develop for it. How likely is that?" As usual a bit too Apple-centric (he implies - as explicit as possible while still being implicit - that only iOS developers can create great applications), but his point still stands. Judging by the abysmal quality of Microsoft's own Metro applications (Mail, Video, Music, People, IE10, etc.), even Microsoft doesn't know how to create great Metro applications.
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Member since:

I've developed on Android, I've very little in the way of complaints.

Eclipse is an IDE that can be used with Android development but it isn't the only choice, it was simply the first to support Android development. Google do provide ADT tools and vaguely suggest Eclipse.

As to "shitty ass" Eclipse, this is purely all your personal preference. I personally like Eclipse and dislike IntelliJ. (in other words, if you don't like Eclipse then use IntelliJ)

Java IDEs go from bad to worse. Worst being Eclipse and mildly better is IntelliJ. Netbeans, I won't even go there.

At work we ended up going with MonoDevelop and MonoDroid after finding it dramatically more usable than ANY Java IDE. Holy. Fuck.

In what way is the UI markup primitive? I've developed UI's without problem.

It is not a 1:1 mapping to UI elements like XAML is. There's a lot more plumbing work using Android Layout XML compared to XAML.

The Android code is a mess of findViewbyId(..) everywhere. Who the fuck wants to maintain that?

Every XAML element is a .NET object. Its really quite powerful when you come to think of it. The marriage of the two concepts is seamless.

You can with XAML: Do animation, styling, and layout. With Android you can just do layout.

Plus I'd rather kill myself before I have to use the Android visual designer again.

With XAML I have a world class tool in Expression Blend.

There is lots of bluster in your posts but little in the way of actual statements of fact.

The simple fact is Windows Phone has been an abject failure and it will continue to be a failure. Just because MS are trying to crowbar their mobile stuff in with Windows 8 will not suddenly make Windows Phone popular with people.

The original XBox was also a "failure". Microsoft has the resources to stay in the game until they eventually dominate the field.

Windows Phone emerging as additional viable ecosystem is an inevitability.

Denying that is just shortsighted foolishness.

As to windows 8 on tablets.. we'll see, but honestly. All the developer momentum is on IOS and Androids side right now. Just because something has a similar development environment doesn't mean they'll all magically become windows mobile developers overnight or even show any interest.

There is no developer momentum on Android tablets. None. Zero. You'd be hard pressed to find even a FEW good Android tablet apps. Trust me, I've tried.

Also, a good chunk of Silverlight and .NET devs DID become Windows Phone developers. That's part of the reason they had 20,000 developers OVER NIGHT. That's why app momentum is HIGHER than Android. We're adding apps at a faster rate despite having an install base astronomically smaller. Why is that?

Because there is genuine revenue coming out of the Windows Phone marketplace. The Android market is a complete and utter failure. No one really gets money off of it. Its just a means to an end, growing the user base.

Honestly, look at the market. When it comes to it, the market sustains a couple of major platforms but that's it. As lovely as WP7 is there is next to no user interest in buying into a new platform and losing all their apps. Android and IOS are at the "good enough" stage for users never mind the fact that MS lacks the critical Google services or good equivalents.

Palm was once good enough. Windows Mobile was once good enough. Times change.

Oh, just something else I saw you post about Direct3D on Windows Phone; Do you honestly think that only having Direct3D instead of OpenGL is a plus?

Yes, honestly.

You do realise that pretty much all games on Android and IOS use OpenGL or alternatively something which abstracts (like unity) right? MS are massively hobbling the platform.

You realize almost all games on Windows use DirectX, right? You realize a great majority of middleware on Windows uses DirectX, right?

Like I said in another comment, the DirectX and OpenGL war was decided a half a decade ago. Around the time Vista launched. OpenGL lost that war.

You realize the DOMINANT GRAPHICS PLATFORM is DirectX? Right? I mean, you _ARE_ aware of that? Correct?

Look at it from this perspective of a game dev: "Well, I can write my game using OpenGL which covers Android and IOS making me lots of money with about 90%+ of the market, should I completely rewrite all the 3d handling code for WP which has a couple of percent and isn't likely to break even in dev costs. No."

Alternatively, here's how it'll play out:

"Hey, the Unreal Engine works on Windows 8."
"Hey it also works on Windows Phone 8 now too"
"Hey it also works on the Xbox 360"

Plus "Hey all of our fucking devs know DirectX, because its all anyone bothers to learn"


As nice as developing for WP7/8 is in general, it's a failed platform. MS missed the bus, they were too late to the game. It's interesting to see them spending so much money on it but it's going the way of webos. A lovely platform that had no real user interest.

Microsoft is no Palm. Windows Phone is too crucial for them to give up. Like I said, the Xbox was a loss leader for a LONG time before it became the success it is today. Don't be so naive as to write off Windows Phone.

As to my Android complaints, yep the emulator is slow but it's usable and honestly.. you do realise you can plug a phone into the pc and use that for development right?

Yes I do, but your costs rise right with that need. Now every developer needs to have a phone on hand in order to even do some development.

You realize on Windows Phone you can make money without even owning a phone, right? I know plenty of devs who just do emulator development and it works great for them.

The Windows Phone emulator really has no equal. With Windows Phone 8 it will run on Hyper-V. Yeah, good luck matching that.

You really need to take a step back and stop being so obsessed with being so blindly pro-MS. Most platforms are great to develop for, don't be so single minded.

It is exactly the fact that I spent a few months working with Android that I can be so vehemently opposed to everything it stands for. As a developer it is borderline insulting they expect us to use this stuff.

Reply Parent Score: 2

dsmogor Member since:

You ignore the fact that there is (and will allays be) a significant performance/feature gap between powered and mobile devices.
The gap is expressed in disparity between DX 10 and before and that makes porting game engines from PC and consoles to phones more involving than just rewriting UI code between IOS and Android.

Reply Parent Score: 2

EvilMonkeySlayer Member since:

Urgh, I hate silly long quotathons.

Java IDE's: That's personal preference. The IDE has now reached a point where it's mostly just peoples personal preferences to which they prefer using. I'd compare it to MS Office, like ms office 2000 reached a good enough point of features people actually use most IDE's have now reached a point of good enough for features devs actually use.

I agree, MS tools are very cool. But Android dev is not hard nor is it some kind of sumerian ziggurat of findviewbyid's.

Erm, yes.. you can do animation in XML on android.

Who uses any visual designer? Everyone uses it to quickly see how it looks then goes back to the XML or the Java.

MS managed to get success with the Xbox 360 because Sony royally messed up with the PS3. And i'd remind you that Nintendo were the victor of this generation of consoles, not MS. Ultimately in terms of sales the 360 and PS3 are now worldwide about equal in parity. So i'd hardly describe that as "dominating the field".

You can call it what you like, the simple reality is that MS have lost the phone market. They might be able to buy themselves some market share but it's simply unsustainable, they can only spend so many billions before the shareholders begin questioning the reasoning. MS' primary phone provider is a dying company which just shed 10,000 jobs. (pretty sad, as Nokia were once real innovators)

As to the tablet market, right now the only successful tablet is made by Apple. From every single news source that has been mentioned the pricing of Windows tablets will be above the iPad, that's commercial suicide. I'm personally holding a wait and see approach about the next Android and Windows 8 tablets. I wouldn't be so closed minded as to outright dismiss something without trying it. (Android 4 on tablets is okay at the moment)

Because there is genuine revenue coming out of the Windows Phone marketplace. The Android market is a complete and utter failure. No one really gets money off of it. Its just a means to an end, growing the user base.

Really? A complete and utter failure? Do you really want to say that? That is just silly.
I don't doubt that there are a few small developers making money on WP7, but I seriously doubt there is anything on the same level as the money that's being made on IOS and Android. The numbers of users simply prevents that.

Yep, Android and IOS are good enough. And windows phone isn't good enough nor a game changer like the iPhone was. Times change every so often and Windows Phone isn't it.

Look at the type of games on games consoles and on the pc.

Now look at games on mobile phones and tablets, you can't simply go from console dev to mobile dev and expect the same sales or results with the same kind of games. You have to create games for the platform. Now again, if you're a dev creating games you will look at what mobile platforms have the biggest share and focus on them first. The dominant mobile platforms use OpenGL, that's the reality. The devs will go where the money is, which is OpenGL.

People simply aren't buying Windows Phone, therefore the devs won't write games for it because the initial investment is high with low probability of a return on your investment. Some games companies may be sources of evil, but they're run by businesses who will look at the numbers.

You can hark on all you like about DirectX, but the mobile devs are writing for OpenGL and it's not going to change anytime soon. It's the Angry Birds syndrome, the market isn't there therefore the devs won't write or port the games because the cost of porting is too great with little return. MS would be very smart to have an implementation of OpenGL in WP8 that way they'd get more cross platform games on it.

By the way, DirectX is the dominant platform on windows, the xbox 360 and windows mobile.

Everything else, whether it be the Wii (the dominant games console) or Android (the dominant mobile platform) it's OpenGL.

No serious devs are going to invest serious money into writing games for a single mobile platform that has a couple of percent of the market. Nobody.

And thank you for reiterating my point about middleware, Unreal like Unity will be one of the ways to get games cross platform on mobile. Side stepping the whole OpenGL/Direct3D malarky.

I'm not writing off Windows Phone, I'm saying it's lost unless MS do something truly radical like Apple did with the iPhone. Which right now i'm not seeing anything.

Good on the windows phone emulator! Good show!

Again, stop being so blindly pro-MS. It's really clouding your vision to the current realities. I'd quite like to see a three horse mobile race, but right now it's Android and IOS that are dominating. MS is going up against Google and Apple which haven't really slipped up much. MS are going against them with a platform that's okay at best and so-so at worst.

Reply Parent Score: 2