Linked by nej_simon on Wed 4th Jul 2012 22:05 UTC
PDAs, Cellphones, Wireless The only MeeGo device to ever be released, the Nokia N9, has been updated to MeeGo/Harmattan 1.3. Among the improvements are improved performance, updated applications, improved NFC support, improved copy/paste, and more. In other news, the team behind MeeGo and Maemo is now leaving Nokia, probably making this the last update for the N9.
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RE[4]: End of a dream
by cdude on Thu 5th Jul 2012 13:26 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: End of a dream"
cdude
Member since:
2008-09-21

It was the "market leader" in number of shipped units... not that good with profit margins


When you compare to Apple then even Microsoft is not good in profit margins.

Fact is Nokia made hundred millions of profit every single quarter, year after year. Then Elop took over and a year later they make billions of lose first time in company history. The situation is that worse that nobody believes Nokia can recover. They are rated junk now and have serious cash-problems.

insisting to look at some slice of a time period when profits were growing still didn't make their absolute value look good.


Read again. They made huge profits year by year for more then a decade. Elop took over and within months its billions of lose.

Now the all in one question: How is that better then your unfunded personal "does not look good" impression?

And a "market leader" in funds spent on R&D (and no, excluding the network division - looking only at consumer OS, handsets, services, and such), with horrible proportions of that amount to returns;


Nokia invested 50 billion in research. That gave them patents which are estimated at 10 billion *AND* successful products that made them the market-leader *AND* billions of dollars of profit resulting from that.

Or do you compare with Apple again? :-) If you do, not forget that it is Apple who pays Nokia 600 million every year cause of that Nokia patent-tressure. And not forget that Nokia was selling more then Apple and Samsung together when Elop took over. Its just now, a year later, that Nokia is a WinPhone-Zombie selling in 4 months what Android sells on 2 days. It is now, a year later, that Nokia lost more then 90% of its value in one year only!!!

suggesting highly dysfunctional structure that was around for a long time before Elop.


Alright. That is why Nokia was number #1 so long till Elop took over?

it's not that Elop didn't make gross errors


Not alone, that is correct. All those who where in charge, BOD and management, that supported the CEO where making the errors together. But at the end its the CEO which is responsible. He gets the millions if everything wents well and is the one to blame when it doesn't. For Nokia it does not went well or do you like to argue against that?

(for one, isn't "Eloped" the new & stronger variant of Osbourne effect?)


No. The Elop-effect is if you combine the Osborn and the Ratner effect at the same time. Elop was the first one testing the fatal effect with the burning memo and killing Nokia within a world record time.

it's not that Nokia wasn't a major player (still is) - but this B&W narrative, as if Nokia wasn't in deep trouble prior to him, is getting old.


You have to differ. Nokia may had the problem that there leadership was in danger. Others like Apple and Samsung where growing faster and hence the distance shrink. But they did not had the problem to fight to survive! They did not had to fire 1/5 employees, sell assets like patents and divisions and they where not in danger to turn from a global player into a bankrupted emergency case. There is a huge difference between those definitions of "problems". Elop indeed is responsible that Nokia is official rated JUNK now.

we know of few Nokia divisions essentially infighting each other, you think lowly employees weren't involved in pushing their pet darling to the detriment of other projects?


I tell you a secret. Its like that in every larger cooperation. Just read those stack-management article that was on osNews some days ago and keep in mind that inside Nokia things where not as bad like they are inside of e.g. Microsoft and yet the first one dies and the second survives.

(BTW those who predicted the downfall for a long time - there's for example Eldar Murtazin from mobile-review.com ...and notice, on the main page, that he doesn't have a problem with also calling Elop a traitor in his #176 EN editorial; didn't have a problem to praise some device from Nokia if it deserved it)


You need again to differ. Everybody saw that Nokia is loosing ground. That they may in danger to lose there leadership-position some day. But no one predicted that Nokia is going to die in just 1-2 years!

Just look how the forecasts for Nokia where before Elop took over. The common believe was that Nokia may lose 5% marketshare till 2013, not that they are dead that time!

Right, as if Nokia didn't have their own activities in China...


I think you mean Vietnam? That is not where Lumias are manufactored. Nokia does not use there own factories for Lumia. I am not aware of Nokia factories in China but maybe I am mistaken. In nay case that's not where the Lumias are produced. First time in Nokia history Nokia does not use its own factories for its products. Rumors are that it allows Microsoft to easily take over when Nokia aborts Lumia...

also quite sizeable, quite new R&D center - one which, IIRC, undergoes expansion recently)


A new Nokia R&D in china? Never ever. Not to my knowledge. I doubt that and think you maybe confuse Nokia with something else. Please give sources.

Edited 2012-07-05 13:40 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[5]: End of a dream
by zima on Thu 5th Jul 2012 14:01 in reply to "RE[4]: End of a dream"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

> It was the "market leader" in number of shipped units... not that good with profit margins

When you compare to Apple then even Microsoft is not good in profit margins.
[...]
Or do you compare with Apple again? :-)

This is what I actually wrote: "... not that good with profit margins for quite some time, also when taking into account specific device segments of course (because it obviously doesn't make sense to compare S30 and iOS devices)"
(additional emphasis added)

...but hey, go ahead at slice my whole post like you did just above, jumping on carefully selected quotes just so you can feel good in proving a point.

Fact is Nokia made hundred millions of profit every single quarter, year after year. Then Elop took over and a year later they make billions of lose first time in company history. The situation is that worse that nobody believes Nokia can recover. [...]
They made huge profits year by year for more then a decade. Elop took over and within months its billions of lose.
Now the all in one question: How is that better then your unfunded personal "does not look good" impression?
[...]
Alright. That is why Nokia was number #1 so long till Elop took over?

Fact is, those hundreds of millions weren't huge at all when compared to revenue - Nokia was balancing not too far from losses (for such big company, which such big money turnover) for many years, performing closer (in returns per investment, R&D and such) to manufacturers which were sinking or sunk (well, before those did that), than to really successful ones. Those aren't my personal impressions but their financial performance...
I point out the dysfunctions and you seem to be willing to just brush them off, in each instance, with the sacred cow of market share (in devices sold) and (overall marginal, really) profits.

Sure, even such profits could keep Nokia afloat by itself, absolutely - but unfortunately that's not how modern market place works (overall, the whole corporate, shareholders culture - you might not like it, I might not like it, but that won't make it go away)

Nokia has a long history of selling divisions BTW, it reinvented itself many times over after stumbling here and there. Maybe it's just another stage.

> (for one, isn't "Eloped" the new & stronger variant of Osbourne effect?)

No. The Elop-effect is if you combine the Osborn and the Ratner effect at the same time.

So, yes, that's a new variant...

> we know of few Nokia divisions essentially infighting each other, you think lowly employees weren't involved in pushing their pet darling to the detriment of other projects?

I tell you a secret. Its like that in every larger cooperation. Just read those stack-management article that was on osNews some days ago and keep in mind that inside Nokia things where not as bad like they are inside of e.g. Microsoft and yet the first one dies and the second survives.

So, it was bad like that (still, how are you so certain of lower severity than within MS?), but it's still the Canadian ...OK.

Everybody saw that Nokia is loosing ground. That they may in danger to lose there leadership-position some day. But no one predicted that Nokia is going to die in just 1-2 years!
Just look how the forecasts for Nokia where before Elop took over. The common believe was that Nokia may lose 5% marketshare till 2013, not that they are dead that time!

Actually, the specific source I linked predicted pretty much just that, a very rapid downfall...

> Right, as if Nokia didn't have their own activities in China...

Right, as if Nokia didn't have their own activities in China...

I think you mean Vietnam? That is not where Lumias are manufactored. Nokia does not use there own factories for Lumia. I am not aware of Nokia factories in China but maybe I am mistaken.

As if Nokia doesn't make anything except Lumias? Nokia has major activities in China, probably one of few factories not in the danger of closure ...it's telling that you apparently haven't even heard about them.

> also quite sizeable, quite new R&D center - one which, IIRC, undergoes expansion recently)

A new Nokia R&D in china? Never ever. Not to my knowledge. I doubt that and think you maybe confuse Nokia with something else. Please give sources.

Very telling... see, it's clear that I follow what goes around Nokia, and you just don't, you repeat popular mythos.
Sources are at nokia.com and (particularly with regards to R&D centre) at conversations.nokia.com (which I like to follow regularly for a long time) - do a google site search there or smth...

Reply Parent Score: 3