Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 13th Jul 2012 23:39 UTC
Windows Ars Technica is running an interesting article about the Mail application on Windows 8. It's one of the first party Metro applications, and Ars' conclusion is that it's really, really not up to snuff - it can't even compare favourably to the mail application on Windows Phone. The sad thing is, however - this applies to virtually all Metro applications.
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RE: Too many platforms
by moondevil on Sat 14th Jul 2012 09:02 UTC in reply to "Too many platforms"
moondevil
Member since:
2005-07-08

Yeah, like it does not happen in other operating systems as well.

What are the Linux APIs, besides the POSIX standard, that are stable across distributions?

What Mac OS X from the early days are now deprecated?

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[2]: Too many platforms
by Richard Dale on Sat 14th Jul 2012 19:30 in reply to "RE: Too many platforms"
Richard Dale Member since:
2005-07-22

Yeah, like it does not happen in other operating systems as well.

What are the Linux APIs, besides the POSIX standard, that are stable across distributions?

What Mac OS X from the early days are now deprecated?


Sure some apis in Mac OS X are deprecated. However, the Mac OS X frameworks are directly descended from NeXTStep which was first released in 1988. If you understood AppKit in 1988, you will have no trouble understanding Cocoa in 2012. There is just no contest, and not many people even know how far ahead NeXT was. The current Balmer led Microsoft is about as far from NeXT or Apple in terms of vision and implementing that vision in terms of apis as you could possibly imagine.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: Too many platforms
by Nelson on Sun 15th Jul 2012 01:28 in reply to "RE[2]: Too many platforms"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

If you know .NET from 2001, or even WPF from 2003 then Metro Style Apps in C# are not a huge leap for you. Same rules apply.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: Too many platforms
by ulricr on Mon 16th Jul 2012 13:39 in reply to "RE[2]: Too many platforms"
ulricr Member since:
2012-01-14

Sure some apis in Mac OS X are deprecated. However, the Mac OS X frameworks are directly descended from NeXTStep which was first released in 1988. If you understood AppKit in 1988, you will have no trouble understanding Cocoa in 2012. There is just no contest, and not many people even know how far ahead NeXT was. The current Balmer led Microsoft is about as far from NeXT or Apple in terms of vision and implementing that vision in terms of apis as you could possibly imagine.
So much revisionism here. Apple tried to write their next version of Mac OS in multiple ways, including Pink, Blue and Taligent and failed. Eventually Apple just bought NextStep and put all the old OS API in Carbon, and deprecated that. They continue to deprecrate APIs, including their own Quicktime API. Apple screwed up many other APIs like Game Sprocket, that Microsoft got right.

It's stupid to talk about Windows vs Mac by looking at the Windows API history all the way back to the 80s, but only considering Mac OS X, and a fantasy version of NextStep as all the Mac side did.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[2]: Too many platforms
by toast88 on Sat 14th Jul 2012 21:10 in reply to "RE: Too many platforms"
toast88 Member since:
2009-09-23

Yeah, like it does not happen in other operating systems as well.


It doesn't.

What are the Linux APIs, besides the POSIX standard, that are stable across distributions?


POSIX *is* the most important API on *nix systems and has been stable for ages. You can't simply leave that out.

Remember "xv"? It's an image viewer with the last stable release from 1994, it still runs on modern versions of Linux.

You can see how powerful APIs like POSIX, SDL and Qt are by looking at how applications are released on POSIX systems. Virtually EVERY application you have on Linux compiles flawlessly on *BSD or MacOSX (with Macports, for example).

Heck, you can even install a complete KDE desktop on top of Windows or port your Qt apps with an ease from desktop to mobile platforms.

What Mac OS X from the early days are now deprecated?


None. MacOS X still has the same native API it got when it was introduced, namely Cocoa which is based on NeXTStep which has been around since the 80ies.

You can even compile and run Cocoa applications on Linux: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2humz9hIVM

Anyone who has a decent understanding and experience with programming on Windows and Unix systems knows that the Microsoft world is a mess when it comes to APIs.

Their code is so messy and heavily platform-dependent, that they can't even sync the code of simple applications like Windows Messenger on different platforms (Windows and MacOS), OneNote (the non-Windows versions of OneNote lack most of the features of the desktop application) or Internet Explorer (IE has always been behind on WP7).

Microsoft is suffering from their own platform-lockin and API unstabilities. It wouldn't have taken them forever otherwise to get NT ported to the mobile platform.

Linux, on the other side, is already supporting soon architectures which aren't even available in hardware yet (ARM Arch 64).

Adrian

Reply Parent Score: 7

RE[3]: Too many platforms
by malxau on Sat 14th Jul 2012 23:34 in reply to "RE[2]: Too many platforms"
malxau Member since:
2005-12-04

"Yeah, like it does not happen in other operating systems as well.


It doesn't.
"

Try this experiment. Get a cross-platform piece of code from the late 90s - say, Netscape 4 - and try to run it on Windows, Linux, and Mac OS. It will run on one of them, guess which...

You can see how powerful APIs like POSIX, SDL and Qt are by looking at how applications are released on POSIX systems.


It's not about the power - it's about having four incompatible versions of Qt in the last 15 years.

"What Mac OS X from the early days are now deprecated?


None. MacOS X still has the same native API it got when it was introduced, namely Cocoa which is based on NeXTStep which has been around since the 80ies.
"

It has the same design, but many APIs have been deprecated - or just plain broken - in the meantime.

The speed at which this can happen on OS X is breathtaking...
https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/Carbon/Refere...

Edited 2012-07-14 23:38 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: Too many platforms
by moondevil on Sun 15th Jul 2012 05:42 in reply to "RE[2]: Too many platforms"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

"Yeah, like it does not happen in other operating systems as well.


It doesn't.
"

Yes it does, only someone that does not work as a professional software developer can make such a statement.

"What are the Linux APIs, besides the POSIX standard, that are stable across distributions?


POSIX *is* the most important API on *nix systems and has been stable for ages. You can't simply leave that out.

Remember "xv"? It's an image viewer with the last stable release from 1994, it still runs on modern versions of Linux.
"

Try to do this with a binary compiled dynamically in 1994.

You can see how powerful APIs like POSIX, SDL and Qt are by looking at how applications are released on POSIX systems. Virtually EVERY application you have on Linux compiles flawlessly on *BSD or MacOSX (with Macports, for example).


SDL and Qt are not operating system APIs.

"What Mac OS X from the early days are now deprecated?


None. MacOS X still has the same native API it got when it was introduced, namely Cocoa which is based on NeXTStep which has been around since the 80ies.
"

Really?!

https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#technotes/tn2223/_index.htm...
https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#documentation/MapKit/Refere...
https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#documentation/Cocoa/Referen...
http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#qa/qa1342/_index.html
https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#qa/qa1679/_index.html

I can list much more if you wish, specially the NeXTStep APIs no longer available.


You can even compile and run Cocoa applications on Linux: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2humz9hIVM


That is GNUStep, not Cocoa, with lots of missing functionality.

http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/ApplicationKitCompatibility
Anyone who has a decent understanding and experience with programming on Windows and Unix systems knows that the Microsoft world is a mess when it comes to APIs.


Anyone with a decent experience developing software across multiple operating systems, knows that Microsoft world is quite bearable, when compared with many of the commercial enterprise systems available.

Their code is so messy and heavily platform-dependent, that they can't even sync the code of simple applications like Windows Messenger on different platforms (Windows and MacOS), OneNote (the non-Windows versions of OneNote lack most of the features of the desktop application) or Internet Explorer (IE has always been behind on WP7).


Different teams, even working in different buildings.

Microsoft is suffering from their own platform-lockin and API unstabilities. It wouldn't have taken them forever otherwise to get NT ported to the mobile platform.


The same platform lockin like any other commercial vendor.

Linux, on the other side, is already supporting soon architectures which aren't even available in hardware yet (ARM Arch 64).


Great! Where I do buy such hardware with Linux?

I have developed commercial software for Aix, HP-UX, Solaris, Linux, BSD, OS/400, Symbian, NeXTStep, Mac OS X, Windows, Android.

What are your developer credentials to talk about stability of operating system APIs?

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[3]: Too many platforms
by lucas_maximus on Sun 15th Jul 2012 10:58 in reply to "RE[2]: Too many platforms"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

You can see how powerful APIs like POSIX, SDL and Qt are by looking at how applications are released on POSIX systems. Virtually EVERY application you have on Linux compiles flawlessly on *BSD or MacOSX (with Macports, for example).


This isn't true, ask any guy on the OpenBSD ports team, how linux specific some source code is.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[3]: Too many platforms
by Soulbender on Sun 15th Jul 2012 11:15 in reply to "RE[2]: Too many platforms"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

POSIX *is* the most important API on *nix systems and has been stable for ages.


POSIX doesn't deal with anything UI related though.

You can see how powerful APIs like POSIX, SDL and Qt are by looking at how applications are released on POSIX systems. Virtually EVERY application you have on Linux compiles flawlessly on *BSD or MacOSX (with Macports, for example).


That is only true for pure POSIX, SDL and Qt apps.
There is a massive amount of OSS code that is embarrassingly Linux-specific and you often run across the attitude that "Meh, it works on Linux, who cares if it doesn't work anywhere else".
Nothing wrong with that, really, but it gets a bit annoying when you hear people boasting about the portability of OSS code when what they really mean is "it works on all Linux distros...and maybe Solaris".

Anyone who has a decent understanding and experience with programming on Windows and Unix systems knows that the Microsoft world is a mess when it comes to APIs.


Both are pretty messy really, in their own way.

Edited 2012-07-15 11:17 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 6