Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 20th Aug 2012 21:04 UTC, submitted by suka
Gnome In a recent interview with the Austrian newssite derStandard.at, GNOME designer Jon McCann talks about GNOME OS, the consequences of Canonical leaving GNOME behind, the purported removal of features and the future role of Linux distributions. "I think there was a time when GNOME had kind of a crisis, we didn't know where we wanted to go, we were lacking goals and vision - that was the end of the GNOME2 cycle. So we pulled together and formed a vision where we want to go - and actually did something about it. And now we have been marching on that plan for quite some time."
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RE[2]: Plan?
by linux-lover on Tue 21st Aug 2012 01:26 UTC in reply to "RE: Plan?"
linux-lover
Member since:
2011-04-25

The 20 by 20 slide was precisely a joke on the 10 by 10 goal. I'm assuming you weren't at the talk and is just spouting bullshit you read on the internet.

It was a poor joke.

They most certainly are using existing tools for that project, although buildbot has absolutely nothing to do with cmake. You're confused and spouting bullshit. [/q[
I know cmake is not related. I was making a comparision. Gnome, more often then not, recreates technology because it was not invented there. I was just citing kde using cmake, something from a 3rd party to accomplish their needs, as an example.

[q] Geez, really? I wonder why people kept using GNOME then.

The project completig their goal does not immediately turn the software into trash. They didn't have a new driection for some time, the developers not having a direction about the future does not magically make the software bad in the present.
Gnome's original goal was to have a fully FOSS desktop at a time when Qt was not FOSS. Qt eventually did go FOSS and Gnome had a stable, functional full free desktop as well. Their goal at that time was met. As evident by years of gnome 2.x releases being essentialy the same to an end user.



This was the opinion of a specific speaker. If you actually read the interview posted in this news you'll find a different opinion.

No it's a pretty dominant opinion in the Gnome prject that touch is the future and we need to accomodate for touch in our UX even though there is not one device the runs Gnome3 and touch. Hell there are barely devices running a true GNU/Linux stack and touch!
Even then interview says how they want gnome on tablets.


Side pane features were removed from nautilus as "it doesn't work well on touch".
Removing.
A feature.
Quite a popular one infact.
Not because the code was poorly maintanied or buggy.
Simply because it was not suited for touch.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[3]: Plan?
by thebluesgnr on Tue 21st Aug 2012 05:07 in reply to "RE[2]: Plan?"
thebluesgnr Member since:
2005-11-14


It was a poor joke.


The people for whom it was intended seemed to enjoy it.


I know cmake is not related. I was making a comparision. Gnome, more often then not, recreates technology because it was not invented there. I was just citing kde using cmake, something from a 3rd party to accomplish their needs, as an example.


Like I said, Gnome is not recreating a build system. It's using existing technology.

You could say jhbuild was created within the Gnome community and found its way to many other projects, as a lot of other Gnome technologies did. I absolutely disagree with your point, but maybe you'd help it by providing some actually relevant examples.


Gnome's original goal was to have a fully FOSS desktop at a time when Qt was not FOSS. Qt eventually did go FOSS and Gnome had a stable, functional full free desktop as well. Their goal at that time was met. As evident by years of gnome 2.x releases being essentialy the same to an end user.


Qt changing its license in 2009 has absolutely no effect on Gnome. It'd be like old school Unix systems being released as open source today having an effect on Linux.

No it's a pretty dominant opinion in the Gnome prject that touch is the future and we need to accomodate for touch in our UX even though there is not one device the runs Gnome3 and touch. Hell there are barely devices running a true GNU/Linux stack and touch!
Even then interview says how they want gnome on tablets.


They absolutely want to work on tablets and other computers with touch interfaces. Work is being done in Xorg and GTK+ to make that at least work. As the interview says, the focus of Gnome right now is notebooks and workstations, as that's what most of its contributors use.

Some people definitely want to see Gnome and the freedesktop on smartphones and tablets as well. That idea is still in its infancy and as you said it's not even possible for Gnome to be there when the components it currently relies on aren't ready. As such there's no such case of features being removed or otherwise impacting Gnome specifically to work on touch screen devices.

What you have seen in Gnome is the influence from modern UI's that differ from the old WIMP model. You may very well dislike that but it has nothing to do with input methods.

Side pane features were removed from nautilus as "it doesn't work well on touch".
Removing.
A feature.
Quite a popular one infact.
Not because the code was poorly maintanied or buggy.
Simply because it was not suited for touch.


You're confused again, or straight up making stuff up. The extra pane functionality in Nautilus has absolutely nothing to do with touch.

Edited 2012-08-21 05:08 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[4]: Plan?
by linux-lover on Tue 21st Aug 2012 15:30 in reply to "RE[3]: Plan?"
linux-lover Member since:
2011-04-25

The people for whom it was intended seemed to enjoy it.

When they put the slides online, maybe they could have but (just kidding) in tiny letters below 20x20?

Like I said, Gnome is not recreating a build system. It's using existing technology.

You could say jhbuild was created within the Gnome community and found its way to many other projects, as a lot of other Gnome technologies did. I absolutely disagree with your point, but maybe you'd help it by providing some actually relevant examples.

My point was, historically, Gnome uses technology from within it's own community, and rarely goes outside of that. KDE often relies on 3rd party technology in major ways. I was citing cmake as an example, but a more obvious one would be Qt. I would not be surprised if they did the same with their buildbots.
As for jhbuild, it was originally written for building gnome.

Qt changing its license in 2009 has absolutely no effect on Gnome. It'd be like old school Unix systems being released as open source today having an effect on Linux.

Qt is not old, dated and barely maintained. I prefer it to GTK. But, neverhteless Gnome's Goal was really to create a fully free desktop, with Qt license changes that goal. Gnome kept going due to corporate involvement from Ximian/Novell, Red Hat, Sun ect.
With KDE and Qt being fully free, they needed a new goal. Just "creating great software" wasn't gonna last forever.

They absolutely want to work on tablets and other computers with touch interfaces. Work is being done in Xorg and GTK+ to make that at least work. As the interview says, the focus of Gnome right now is notebooks and workstations, as that's what most of its contributors use.

Some people definitely want to see Gnome and the freedesktop on smartphones and tablets as well. That idea is still in its infancy and as you said it's not even possible for Gnome to be there when the components it currently relies on aren't ready. As such there's no such case of features being removed or otherwise impacting Gnome specifically to work on touch screen devices.

I also want Gnome on touch, but I don't think they should screw over the desktop because of it.
KDE has a better approach. Plasma Active, a UI just for touch devices. KDE has actual hardware in the works too.

Again, Gnome 3 doesn't really look like they are focused on workstations. Some people may like it. To me it was OK to use and looked great, but everything took longer to do then in Gnome 2.

If they were focused on workstations, they have gone batshit crazy if they think workstations do not need the option to power off. I heard they are reimplementing that due to how many people complained.

What you have seen in Gnome is the influence from modern UI's that differ from the old WIMP model. You may very well dislike that but it has nothing to do with input methods.

Bullshit.
Windows:Check
Icons: Check
Menus:Check
Pointer: Check

We aren't moving away from WIMP. Android, iOS, WP7, Windows 8, OSX Mountain lion are _all_ WIMP.
On Android/iOS there are still icons. The windows are really just fullscreened. The pointer is your finger. Menus are still there. On android I hold down my finger to bring up a menu for things like "open in a new tab", copy selected text, paste. I don't use iOS. With metro (or w/e it's called) tiles are pretty much Icons, menus are still there, Windows are still there (again, fullscreen everything, WTF?). The pointer is either your mose or finger. It may not be the WIMP we are used to but it is still WIMP.

You're right, I don't like it.

Why are seeing all these new UI trends right when the time tablets and smartphones are hugely popular and on the rise? It's because of touch. Windows 8 was intended to be run on tablets from the start. All these new UI's have everything to do with touch.


You're confused again, or straight up making stuff up. The extra pane functionality in Nautilus has absolutely nothing to do with touch.

You sure?
http://git.gnome.org/browse/nautilus/commit/?id=b8d5b4a7bcf47ed34a6...

"Extra Pane mode was somewhat useful before GNOME 3 had side by side window mode. The combination of panes and tabs is just too much. It is inconsistent with the file chooser and doesn't work well with touch."

Wow/ Side by side windows eh? So to view 2 directories at once I must use the entire screen, instead of being able to do it with less then half.
Panes and tabs! Too many things! I can't choose between the 2, my head hurts!
C'om, panes let you view 2 directories at once. Can't be done with tabs, you need 2 windows.

I don't know how it's inconsistent, but the user has to
know about the pane feature and choose to enable it from the menu. It wasn't on by default. It was nicely hidden.

The only thing true is that it doesn't work well on touch!

They removed tree sidebar for the same reason.
http://git.gnome.org/browse/nautilus/commit/?id=253d4bf50b04a2ad3a0...

"It is inconsistent with the file chooser, doesn't work well with touch, is really hard to use, and isn't consistent with any other GNOME 3 apps."
Again, last I checked, you had to manually enable tree sidebar, it was a option in a menu that the user could choose.
Hard to use? You had to enable it, which implies you want it, and it wasn't hard to use at all.
Consistency? Again, you would never know it existed until you turned it on. It wasn't something people were complaining about all the time.

The only valid reason was that it does not work well on touch!

Edited 2012-08-21 15:33 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 4