Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 29th Aug 2012 22:52 UTC
Linux Miguel de Icaza: "To sum up: (a) First dimension: things change too quickly, breaking both open source and proprietary software alike; (b) incompatibility across Linux distributions. This killed the ecosystem for third party developers trying to target Linux on the desktop. You would try once, do your best effort to support the 'top' distro or if you were feeling generous 'the top three' distros. Only to find out that your software no longer worked six months later. Supporting Linux on the desktop became a burden for independent developers." Mac OS X came along to scoop up the Linux defectors.
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RE[5]: Bitter Miguel
by lucas_maximus on Thu 30th Aug 2012 12:43 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Bitter Miguel"
lucas_maximus
Member since:
2009-08-18

It fragmentation which is what Miguel was on about, installation is just one issue that is difficult.

Easy of use and things happening without effort is a big deal. Saying "once you learn how a package manager works" ... are you serious? You need to have a mental picture of what packages and dependences are, I certainly couldn't explain it easily to 90% of the office I work with and most of them are fairly decent at using a Windows PC.

Of course you can say "well they don't need a full understanding", then you are encouraging people to mindlessly type things into a terminal as an Admin users, it is no different than people mindlessly clicking through installs (while being potentially more damaging to the system).

It not just installation either. It is a whole host of things that is wrong with Linux, you can say this or that is easy (IF YOU KNOW HOW) but there is soo much fragmentation and little niggly problems that all add up to a lot of frustration if you don't know how to fix them. Fragmentation only (even between versions of the same distro things can be different) makes this worse.

And using contrived examples such to prove a cheap point doesn't his comments any less relevant or meaningful.

But whatever, Linux users have a long history of ignoring what other people are saying and just classify those with decent concerns as "haters".

Edited 2012-08-30 12:47 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: Bitter Miguel
by Valhalla on Thu 30th Aug 2012 13:29 in reply to "RE[5]: Bitter Miguel"
Valhalla Member since:
2006-01-24

Saying "once you learn how a package manager works" ... are you serious? You need to have a mental picture of what packages and dependences are

Mental picture? Packages are applications, dependancies are applications which another application needs, and really you don't need to understand dependancies as they are automatically resolved, you just need to either click on the program (as in Ubuntu's gui package manager) or type a simple command line phrase containing the name of the application. Anyone can learn that, it's not hard.

It's not some deeply fundamental thing you need to grok, and since you used the concept of a program and corresponding codecs as some prime example of how easy Windows is to use then how can you pretend that the concept of packages are hard to grasp?

You do know that Windows will come with it's own App Store, which is essentially nothing but a package manager with some DRM bells and whistles.

Would it help you if we from here on call a 'package manager' an 'app manager' instead, will that make it easier for you to grasp?


Of course you can say "well they don't need a full understanding", then you are encouraging people to mindlessly type things into a terminal as an Admin users, it is no different than people mindlessly clicking through installs (while being potentially more damaging to the system).

Lol, how is it 'mindlessly' to type a specified command followed by the name of an application, and how is it at all more potentially damaging to the system than clicking on third-party installers downloaded from the web?

And using contrived examples such to prove a cheap point doesn't his comments any less relevant or meaningful.

You are the one who has tried to present contrived examples and claiming the equivalent would be 'oh so hard on Linux', I've shown that was bullshit, it's not even hard on Arch Linux, which is anything but a 'hold-your-hand' distro.

But whatever, Linux users have a long history of ignoring what other people are saying and just classify those with decent concerns as "haters".

Heh, based upon your comments here you don't even seem to have used Linux at all, yet you are certain you have 'decent concerns' and anyone disagreeing with you does so because they choose to ignore you as a 'hater'.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: Bitter Miguel
by lucas_maximus on Thu 30th Aug 2012 14:32 in reply to "RE[6]: Bitter Miguel"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Sorry you do need to know what packages and dependencies are or at least have some concept of them, because when you want to install something outside of the package manager or outside of the repositories you have to either add repos or add them using a tool like dpkg or rpm. If you on a debian based distro you may even have to use alien to convert the package.

Spotify, Dropbox and Skype come to mind (Spotify is a mare to setup on anything than Ubuntu).

No it is not hard if it all works properly, but it is rarely the case and works differently on pretty much every major distro ... that is fragmentation which is what Miguel's comments were about.

As I said you kept on missing the larger overall point.

AS for me not using Linux, I pretty much tried every major distro since 2004. I run a Fedora machine and an OpenBSD user. I know my way a *nix boxen.

Edited 2012-08-30 14:40 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[7]: Bitter Miguel
by lucas_maximus on Thu 30th Aug 2012 14:53 in reply to "RE[6]: Bitter Miguel"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Lol, how is it 'mindlessly' to type a specified command followed by the name of an application, and how is it at all more potentially damaging to the system than clicking on third-party installers downloaded from the web?


I seen plenty of people just type in whatever Linux instructions to solve a problem they saw on a forum.

Most third party installers won't destroy your MBR, but it easily doable with "dd" in *nix.

With an installer, you just need to know the application isn't (in most likely hood) malicious and how to follow it through.

Installing stuff through a command line interface is harder, and novice users will enter whatever you tell them.

We could argue about this all day.

Still doesn't change that Linux is fragmented and it makes it difficult for developers.

Reply Parent Score: 1