Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 26th Sep 2012 20:16 UTC, submitted by Bob Stein
Windows ActiveWin.com has just posted their 45-page, 40-screenshot review of Microsoft Windows 8. The review covers many different aspects of the OS including performance, security, application compatibility, and more. "Is Windows 8 a hit or miss? It's a hit, it is clearly Microsoft's most bold development in years, it probably beats out the transition from Program Manager (Windows 3X) to Windows 95, the move from Windows 9x to the NT Kernel. The Windows 8 platform represents so many things: truly touch centric, support for modern processor architectures, fast and fluid as Microsoft puts it and also represents where the majority of the world is heading when it comes to computing, entirely mobile."
Thread beginning with comment 536651
To view parent comment, click here.
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
saso
Member since:
2007-04-18

I think you realized what a stupid reply this was.

I've already clarified this part about a half hour before you responded. But obviously that didn't stop you from dismissing out of hand what I said. Quite dishonest, don't you think?

The majority of screen sizes are 20 inches and below.

Not on desktops, which is what I was talking about (you know, the title of my post said "Touch on a desktop machine..."). But hey, when you're strawmanning my position, why stop now?

At those sizes, touch augments, not replaces, the interaction experience. You didn't touch your All In One for everything prior, did you?

I wasn't touching it at all, since when using the keyboard and mouse I'm sitting much further away from the machine. Even so points 3, 4 and 5 still stand - Metro simply doesn't scale well to large machines (not to mention the fact that it utterly fails at multi-monitoring).

My original post was as a result of me doing a deliberate touch-only test to see if it is usable. My conclusion is that it is not. I had to put the keyboard and mouse aside, since they were in the way, so using it as an augmentation is nonsense. It's either-or. Any combination felt awkward and I had to continually adjust my seating position and move the keyboard/mouse around on the table (to have a place where to rest my elbows).

It would make sense of you didn't mince my point and nitpick.

It would make sense if you didn't strawman my position. I never said touch screens don't work on small/handheld devices. In fact, I said quite the opposite:
Thus I conclude that this UI was clearly intended for tablets/smartphones, not desktops.


I was saying that in contrast, touch is designed to be the only input method has a falling off point you're rapidly approaching.

That is all nice and sweet, but what about the desktop machine users (such, oh I don't know, about 95% of the enterprise?) who do have large screens? Microsoft clearly intends this interface to be *the* method to interact with their new OS. Are they willing to relegate an entire extremely important market segment over to the "legacy" column?

It's nice that Windows 8 works well in some areas - woohoo for them. But that doesn't solve the problem of it sucking in some other scenarios. Users don't average their experience over all market segments.

It also coincides with your exotic choice of hardware. You're outside the norm expecting norm results.

Excuse me? This is one of the flagship desktop machines from Dell. The mere fact that it's "all-in-one" means jack shit - users don't care if the components of the computer are crammed up behind the screen or sit in a separate box on the floor. The important bit is the interface - the touch screen. But perhaps you're one of those mobile hipsters who thinks desktop machines are dead. Well guess what, a majority of businesses and enterprise users aren't going to give them up any time soon, and even personal-use laptops are often attached to an external KVM. It's just the nature of the user interface - large screens with comfy keyboards and mice are still much more usable than the crammed, dumbed down micro-interfaces of mobile machines.

Really? Which model?

That you can't see which model I meant about shows me the level of your reading comprehension. I wrote which model I tried in my first response to you.

Dells W8 AIO lineup isn't out yet. I know because I'm looking for one.

The occasion when I tried this machine was at a consumer electronics show - Dell was showing how their "future W8 desktops" would look like. It was exactly like this one: http://www.engadget.com/2012/08/30/dell-announces-xps-one-27-aio-ru...

The Windows 7 class hardware multitouch digitizer isn't up to snuff with new W8 requirements which is why charms bars can be hit or miss, why its usually only three or five point multi touch, and why responsiveness falls off toward the center.

The machine will remain in production for the coming 2 years. It was been designed with W8 in mind.

The Windows 7 class hardware multitouch digitizer isn't up to snuff with new W8 requirements which is why charms bars can be hit or miss, why its usually only three or five point multi touch, and why responsiveness falls off toward the center.

My problem wasn't with the machine not registering or misinterpreting my touches, so it wasn't a hardware/driver/whatever issue. My problems stemmed from the fact of how the interface itself is designed, so all I tried was pre-installed Microsoft stuff (there wasn't anything custom by Dell in there).

Windows Store doesn't even have a bottom app bar, it has a green top one.

IIRC it was the "Games" tile on the home screen, which should be part of the Store app, but it might have been the "Messaging" app. I didn't install anything 3rd party for sure (since the machine wasn't linked to a Live account).

And in IE a bottom swipe brings up the top app bar. Same with other apps. In fact this is baked into the SDK if you check the MSDN documents.

I can only comment on my experience, I haven't checked any documentation. IE shows the address bar at the bottom and the tabs at the top. Swipe in from the top showed both, swipe in from the bottom did nothing.

Reply Parent Score: 0

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


I've already clarified this part about a half hour before you responded. But obviously that didn't stop you from dismissing out of hand what I said. Quite dishonest, don't you think?

Not on desktops, which is what I was talking about (you know, the title of my post said "Touch on a desktop machine..."). But hey, when you're strawmanning my position, why stop now?


That's such a dumb artificial restriction. The point in my original comments calling you a minority was to highlight the fact that when contrasted against the entirety of the Windows ecosystem, you're in the minority.

I don't very much care that you can twist numbers and male your setup more common. It isn't the point I'm making at all.


I wasn't touching it at all, since when using the keyboard and mouse I'm sitting much further away from the machine. Even so points 3, 4 and 5 still stand - Metro simply doesn't scale well to large machines (not to mention the fact that it utterly fails at multi-monitoring).


Which makes sense. AIOs aren't primarily designed for touch. This would ring true using any touch OS. The ergonomics are not there.

Touch is instead supposed to augment, much like now the mouse augments the keyboard. Same with Pen. Its a choice.


My original post was as a result of me doing a deliberate touch-only test to see if it is usable. My conclusion is that it is not. I had to put the keyboard and mouse aside, since they were in the way, so using it as an augmentation is nonsense. It's either-or. Any combination felt awkward and I had to continually adjust my seating position and move the keyboard/mouse around on the table (to have a place where to rest my elbows).


The model you said you tested has an adjustable stand. You can tilt it closer to you. That's the entire point. Touch is optional. Using it as the primary method of input is absurd.

However, its not the fault of the OS. Its just not a form factor suited for that kind of thing.

The same goes for the touch screen laptops. Its there in addition to a touchpad. Not to replace it. That's the greatest miss I think people have when it comes to Windows 8. Touch is an option. So is Pen. So is Mouse. So is Keyboard. Its an option.



That is all nice and sweet, but what about the desktop machine users (such, oh I don't know, about 95% of the enterprise?) who do have large screens? Microsoft clearly intends this interface to be *the* method to interact with their new OS. Are they willing to relegate an entire extremely important market segment over to the "legacy" column?


No. They can use a mouse and keyboard. They still exist. Shocking. I know.

In fact, if they'd like, they purchase gesture enabled mice and trackpads.


It's nice that Windows 8 works well in some areas - woohoo for them. But that doesn't solve the problem of it sucking in some other scenarios. Users don't average their experience over all market segments.


I think the issue is overblown, much like the Vista DRM stuff was overblown. At the time OSNews ran like 10 articles on it a say. FSF claimed it'd cause global flooding, etc. Things tend to get exaggerated.


Excuse me? This is one of the flagship desktop machines from Dell. The mere fact that it's "all-in-one" means jack shit - users don't care if the components of the computer are crammed up behind the screen or sit in a separate box on the floor. The important bit is the interface - the touch screen. But perhaps you're one of those mobile hipsters who thinks desktop machines are dead.


AIOs are in and of themselves a niche form factor. TOUCH AIOs are even more niche.

More people will buy Dell Laptops than will buy this. Fact.

However, its all besides the point. As I stated above, the way you were using the machine was intentional handicapping by your own admission.

In related news, my 200inch monitor with Windows 8 sucks because I had to climb a ladder to swipe down from the top.


That you can't see which model I meant about shows me the level of your reading comprehension. I wrote which model I tried in my first response to you.


Well genius, Dells XPS One lineup is also a Windows 7 line up. I'm sorry I didn't assume you went to a damn Consumer Electronics Show. Because that's so common.


IIRC it was the "Games" tile on the home screen, which should be part of the Store app, but it might have been the "Messaging" app. I didn't install anything 3rd party for sure (since the machine wasn't linked to a Live account).

I can only comment on my experience, I haven't checked any documentation. IE shows the address bar at the bottom and the tabs at the top. Swipe in from the top showed both, swipe in from the bottom did nothing.


Just tried both those apps on my Windows tablet, which I'm writing this response on, and nope, a bottom swipe brings down the top app bar too.

I really don't know what was going on with your experience, but that's not how the AppBar works or ever worked in the SDK.

Reply Parent Score: 3

saso Member since:
2007-04-18

That's such a dumb artificial restriction. The point in my original comments calling you a minority was to highlight the fact that when contrasted against the entirety of the Windows ecosystem, you're in the minority.

Sure, the entire enterprise/home desktop environment is a minority! How stupid of me to think that Microsoft cared about its traditional market!

I don't very much care that you can twist numbers and male your setup more common. It isn't the point I'm making at all.

What numbers did I twist?

Which makes sense. AIOs aren't primarily designed for touch.

NO desktop is designed for touch. Whether it's AIO or KVM+box doesn't matter. Nobody reaches with their hand onto the monitor.

This would ring true using any touch OS. The ergonomics are not there.

Hallelujah, you finally got it.

Touch is instead supposed to augment,

Or maybe you didn't...

much like now the mouse augments the keyboard. Same with Pen. Its a choice.

When was the last time you used a pen tablet to operate a computer? I've had a Wacom tablet for 10 years and I've never used it to control the OS. It's a very narrow single-application tool that is completely useless to the vast majority of users.

The model you said you tested has an adjustable stand. You can tilt it closer to you. That's the entire point.

The stand is nearly useless.

Touch is optional. Using it as the primary method of input is absurd.

First you tell me to move it using a stand into a touch-input position and then you tell me that using touch for primary input is absurd? Do you expect me to move it every 1-2 minutes depending on what app I'm using at the moment?

However, its not the fault of the OS. Its just not a form factor suited for that kind of thing.

Finally I agree. Touch screens on desktops make no sense. My entire point from the get go.

The same goes for the touch screen laptops. Its there in addition to a touchpad. Not to replace it. That's the greatest miss I think people have when it comes to Windows 8. Touch is an option. So is Pen. So is Mouse. So is Keyboard. Its an option.

In any given environment there is a combination of tools that is optimal and introducing other elements actually creates a detrimental setup. Touch + KVM is one such combination. KVM is highly accurate, very fast and allows for a rich set of input options. Touch, OTOH, is much slower, much less accurate and limits the richness of the displayed content. Nevertheless, it serves well in environments where external controls are impractical (e.g. mobile devices).

Your constant desire to shoehorn touch into everything shows me you've obviously never used it on larger screens. I have, and it doesn't add anything to the mix that KVM doesn't already have (besides adding smudges onto your screen, that is).

No. They can use a mouse and keyboard. They still exist. Shocking. I know.

My entire argument was about touch-on-desktop and how Metro is completely structured around it, which leads to detrimental effects on traditional desktop-class applications. Also, you've simply skipped over my points 3-5 which are just as valid without touch (that is where you see the primary touch-orientation of Metro spill over into traditional desktop land and affect it negatively).

In fact, if they'd like, they purchase gesture enabled mice and trackpads.

Not touch screens, have never argued against that. Get it through your thick skull.

I think the issue is overblown, much like the Vista DRM stuff was overblown. At the time OSNews ran like 10 articles on it a say. FSF claimed it'd cause global flooding, etc. Things tend to get exaggerated.

What has this got to do with my arguments? Or right, nothing.

AIOs are in and of themselves a niche form factor. TOUCH AIOs are even more niche.

I'm not speaking Swahili am I? I explained to you exactly why this very exact argument is bunk (where the CPU+motherboard are positioned is irrelevant), and you just ignored it and repeat the same thing over and over again like a broken record.

However, its all besides the point.

Congrats, finally you caught up to reality.

As I stated above, the way you were using the machine was intentional handicapping by your own admission.

How about addressing my points 3-5 then? Oh right, you can't, because those still apply even without touch.

Look, the fact of the matter is, Metro was designed with touch in mind - that was the entire guiding principle behind it. For instance: why is everything fullscreen? Because touch doesn't work on windowed GUIs. Why are controls spaced so far apart? Because fingers are darn imprecise. Why are there hot corners instead of panels of controls ala Ribbon? Because on small touch screens we need to save space. The entire desktop experience is being overridden to make way for a paradigm that was thrust over from a different form factor.

In related news, my 200inch monitor with Windows 8 sucks because I had to climb a ladder to swipe down from the top.

In related news, you can't make sensible arguments and so you come up with BS.

Well genius, Dells XPS One lineup is also a Windows 7 line up. I'm sorry I didn't assume you went to a damn Consumer Electronics Show. Because that's so common.

Well genius, that's because the XPS One 27 with Windows 8 is exactly the same hardware as the XPS One 27 with Windows 7. If you were unsure, you could have Googled it.

Just tried both those apps on my Windows tablet,

Seeing as these aren't released on the market yet, way to show everybody that you clearly have no conflict of interest...

a bottom swipe brings down the top app bar too.
I really don't know what was going on with your experience, but that's not how the AppBar works or ever worked in the SDK.

Then go talk to Dell, they're messing up your product.

Reply Parent Score: 1