Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 28th Sep 2012 21:51 UTC, submitted by MOS6510
General Development "When I started writing programs in the late 80s it was pretty primitive and required a lot of study and skill. I was a young kid doing this stuff, the adults at that time had it even worse and some of them did start in the punch card era. This was back when programmers really had to earn their keep, and us newer generations are losing appreciation for that. A generation or two ago they may have been been better coders than us. More importantly they were better craftsmen, and we need to think about that." I'm no programmer, but I do understand that the current crop of programmers could learn a whole lot from older generations. I'm not going to burn my fingers on if they were better programmers or not, but I do believe they have a far greater understanding of the actual workings of a computer. Does the average 'app developer' have any clue whatsoever about low-level code, let alone something like assembly?
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RE: Web "developers"
by johntdaly on Sat 29th Sep 2012 19:58 UTC in reply to "Web "developers""
Member since:

I am a web developer and I develop web services for our app developers to use. I don't agree with what you say. I've worked with guys that have said similarly funny stuff like what you quote (my favorite was “C has classes now in the newest version by Microsoft, C#!”) but those weren’t clueless or unskilled programmers. They where programmers that had settled for one language, in this case PHP. That made them good PHP programmers but rather helpless when it comes to other languages or other problem domains.
The problem I see with this article and with what you and way to many other do is to define a “good programmer” as somebody who knows X, Y and Z. Anybody who doesn't know about those things is a clueless, bad programmer.
The problem is today we need a lot of programmers, and there are a hell of a lot of kinds of programmers too. So even tough I know C/C++ and have a strong interest in operating systems I do web stuff it dynamic languages (right now in JavaScript and Ruby) for a living and I like it. The field has grown and is now so damn big that none of us have a fair chance to be competent in more then one or two problem domains and some don't even get past one programming language. That doesn't make them or rather US (me and all the other devs here) incompetent or useless. A lot of time has passed since programming meant writing batch processes for mainframes or small BASIC scripts for your home computer.
We need those legions of programmers to get all the work done that exists now (how many devices to you own now that you can classify as computer?) so the barriers to entering the job market is low but only the good and capable get all the way up to the good jobs.
Back in the days all programmers where the equivalent to engineers, now we have mechanics too.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Web "developers"
by biffuz on Sat 29th Sep 2012 22:49 in reply to "RE: Web "developers""
biffuz Member since:

Mine is just a small selection of sentences to show the situation, but talking and working with this kind of "programmers" reveals their real knowledge or even interest in their job. I said "a large part", not "all", and I choose "web developers" because that's the category where this effect is most visible nowadays. Of course nobody can be an expert in every field, but you can't miss the fundamentals.
Most of the people I heard these sentences from were very good at other task - say web design, graphics works, management, or simple zealous workers. They also manage to make scripts that appears to be working, or they wouldn't be in this sistuation.
But probably the best way to describe them is that they _refuse_ to learn a better method, to get a larger vision of their work. They're happy because their products (apparently) works, they're happy because their boss is happy that their products (apparently) works, and they're happy because an happy boss will help in keeping thir job. I've learned that when you find yourself in this situation you should either get out as soon as possible, or work as bas as your neighbour.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: Web "developers"
by lucas_maximus on Sun 30th Sep 2012 12:51 in reply to "RE[2]: Web "developers""
lucas_maximus Member since:

Some people do programming as a day job, some do it as a vocation.

I tend to spend a bit of my own times learning new techniques, my colleague while she is a very solid programmer has her skillset is mostly VB6 and C#.NET 1.1 stuff. Which is fine, the code works and is perfectly readable what she produces ... although it is a little bit "oldschool" compared to C# 4.0.

Reply Parent Score: 2