Linked by martini on Tue 23rd Oct 2012 22:02 UTC
X11, Window Managers Wayland 1.0 was officialy released on October 22. Wayland is a protocol for a compositor to talk to its clients as well as a C library implementation of that protocol. The compositor can be a standalone display server running on Linux kernel modesetting and evdev input devices, an X application, or a wayland client itself. The clients can be traditional applications, X servers (rootless or fullscreen) or other display servers.
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Comment by stabbyjones
by stabbyjones on Tue 23rd Oct 2012 22:49 UTC
stabbyjones
Member since:
2008-04-15

Now that I've seen they're aiming for network transparency in some form I would really like to try it out when it starts hitting repos.

As long as I can ssh a nautilus window from home at work I'll give wayland a go.
While X is better than it was when I started using Linux, it doesn't get enough money/attention to keep up.

Hopefully wayland can keep it simple.

Reply Score: 4

v RE: Comment by stabbyjones
by Yoko_T on Tue 23rd Oct 2012 23:38 in reply to "Comment by stabbyjones"
RE[2]: Comment by stabbyjones
by TechGeek on Wed 24th Oct 2012 01:22 in reply to "RE: Comment by stabbyjones"
TechGeek Member since:
2006-01-14

Well, Gnome3 wasn't a change that anyone really wanted. Wayland aims at fixing something everyone knows needs fixing. That plus its being aimed at Fedora and eventually RHEL. Others can choose not to use it, but they will be giving up a lot of compatibility to do so. Apps will start to be ported over to Wayland support, making anyone without Wayland a dying breed. Unless of course it sucks. Then it just won't go anywhere.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE: Comment by stabbyjones
by ssokolow on Wed 24th Oct 2012 01:14 in reply to "Comment by stabbyjones"
ssokolow Member since:
2010-01-21

Now that I've seen they're aiming for network transparency in some form I would really like to try it out when it starts hitting repos.

As long as I can ssh a nautilus window from home at work I'll give wayland a go.
While X is better than it was when I started using Linux, it doesn't get enough money/attention to keep up.

Hopefully wayland can keep it simple.


Agreed. With network transparency on the plans, I'm cautiously optimistic but I'll wait until I can see how good a job KWin does of ignoring clients' attempts to use client-side window decorations.

I've seen far too much pain and suffering from Windows, where a busy app can block itself from being moved, resized, refocused, or minimized.

As is, it feels as if Linux might be the only platform REgressing rather than PROgressing when it comes to not trusting applications to be perfect.

Edited 2012-10-24 01:21 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by stabbyjones
by renox on Wed 24th Oct 2012 11:28 in reply to "RE: Comment by stabbyjones"
renox Member since:
2005-07-06

I've seen far too much pain and suffering from Windows, where a busy app can block itself from being moved, resized, refocused, or minimized.

Weston (like Windows now) will ping the application and if it doesn't answer will takeover the window, which will allow you to still manage the window.

As is, it feels as if Linux might be the only platform REgressing rather than PROgressing when it comes to not trusting applications to be perfect.


It's an either/or situation, both have advantages and drawback:
-client side decoration: looks better but can be a problem if the application is blocked and resizing can be "jerky" if the application is slow.
-server side decoration: resizing the window is smooth but the content of the window can be ugly if the application is slow, less pretty for transformed windows.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[2]: Comment by stabbyjones
by butters on Wed 24th Oct 2012 14:44 in reply to "RE: Comment by stabbyjones"
butters Member since:
2005-07-08

I'm not optimistic about network transparency in Wayland unless it coincides with a major push to bring network transparency to D-Bus. In fact, one could argue that Wayland should be built on top of a network-transparent message bus.

The client-server paradigm is the original sin of UNIX and everything/everybody that was influenced by it. Clients often want to talk to one another. Servers often want to talk to one another. Servers often want to make requests on clients. In modern software systems, the distinction between clients and servers often breaks down or creates artificial limitations.

This is why D-Bus (or COM in the Windows world) has become such an important architectural element of modern operating systems. Of course, it was implemented in userspace, and it wasn't until years later that anyone even thought to suggest that maybe the Linux kernel should have a native pub-sub socket type -- so ingrained is the client-server mindset.

We live in a peer-to-peer world, with peer-to-peer programming models and a fantastic peer-to-peer network architecture, and the extent to which we shoehorn this all into the client-server paradigm is shameful.

Just look at how web frameworks have evolved as crude and awkward bastardizations of the MVC pattern, which doesn't really translate from object-oriented programming to a client-server protocol like HTTP.

In both X11 and Wayland, clients aren't really pure clients, because they respond to requests from the server to handle input and exposure events. So what we're really talking about are applications of the generalized peer-to-peer message bus.

We need a first-class, network-transparent, pub-sub, multicast socket implementation in the kernel. D-Bus would be a thin abstraction of that, and since the kernel implementation would replace two expensive copy operations with a cheap page table mapping, Wayland could ride on the D-Bus without performance issues, gaining network transparency as a matter of course.

Reply Parent Score: 4

Wait... network Tranaparency???
by gfolkert on Wed 24th Oct 2012 21:54 in reply to "Comment by stabbyjones"
gfolkert Member since:
2008-12-15

You do realize we've had that *FOR SOME TIME* like well more than 20 years.

I've been using XDMCP and "willing to manage" super duty centralized machines, doing the heavy lifting of hard work and using local graphics for Display... since 1995 for myself.

I mean, why have a big honking machine producing LOTS of heat sitting under your desk... when it can be sitting in a Climate Controlled Server Room... and displaying/sending all graphical events (along with sound) to my local desktop?

I mean, I've done it with OSF1, SunOS (pre-Solaris), HP-UX, AIX... of course Linux, *BSDs.

You realize that the centralized machine is actually a "client" of the local Desktop Graphical Server.

X was never/is not the problem, just people's perception of it.

I mean, heck, I've done server installs of Linux in the server room... do the rest of the install at my desk once I boot it properly. This being in 1998 when "Windows" stuff like that was IMPOSSIBLE, without third party consoles or other addon.

Heck, Direct Remote Administration really wasn't on Microsoft's radar until late 1999.

Network transparency... with X, we've had it for *YEARS*, probably decades.

Reply Parent Score: 2

stabbyjones Member since:
2008-04-15

We know.

Wayland doesn't do it so to replace x it well need it.

Reply Parent Score: 2