Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 29th Oct 2012 23:34 UTC
Games I'm not 100% sure this is actually word-for-word, but alas. "In a presentation at Ubuntu Developer Summit currently going on in Denmark, Drew Bliss from Valve said that Linux is more viable than Windows 8 for gaming. Windows 8 ships with its own app store and it is moving away from an open platform model." I feel like a broken record by now but here we go again: keep an eye on Valve, even if you're not into games. This is the company pushing NVIDIA and AMD to improve their Linux support, with enough clout and name to actually get stuff done. Valve doesn't mess around.
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RE[4]: It's a Valve's game
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 30th Oct 2012 15:40 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: It's a Valve's game"
Thom_Holwerda
Member since:
2005-06-29

1) But saying Win 8 isn't a viable gaming platform is talking garbage.


It isn't when you take long-term into account, something many people refuse to do here. Long-term, Windows is going Metro-only. That effectively kills any serious gaming on Windows - and Microsoft is okay with that, because they've got an Xbox to sell you.

2) Linux is well known for breaking stuff and piss poor 3d (wait until they move to Wayland, Nvidia won't work with that).


Which is exactly why Valve is working with AMD, NVIDIA, and others. The breakage is not something that's unstoppable or insurmountable - just look at Android. Valve could easily work together with the parties involved to come to a - for Valve - stable platform for developers to target. If Google can, then Valve can. Especially with the help of major other game companies with which they're already working anyway through Steam. Remember, a Metro-only no-serious-gaming Windows is disastrous for especially NVIDIA. Nobody needs a powerful graphics chip for Metro and Cut The Rope.

You are stuck in the present, unable to look beyond the horizon. Windows' viability as a gaming platform will end in the very near future when Microsoft pulls the plug on the desktop. They've made it very clear they intend to do so, and luckily for us, Valve has the brains to start addressing that situation NOW, instead of when it's too late.

Edited 2012-10-30 15:41 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[5]: It's a Valve's game
by tomcat on Tue 30th Oct 2012 16:08 in reply to "RE[4]: It's a Valve's game"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

It isn't when you take long-term into account, something many people refuse to do here. Long-term, Windows is going Metro-only. That effectively kills any serious gaming on Windows - and Microsoft is okay with that, because they've got an Xbox to sell you.


You don't know what you're talking about. Native Metro apps written in C/C++ are basically the same as native Win32 apps: They use D3D11, swap chain/flip mode, game loop, input events, raw mouse support, etc. I know because, unlike you, I've actually written Metro games; not regurgitated lame BS that I read on some blog.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[6]: It's a Valve's game
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 30th Oct 2012 16:31 in reply to "RE[5]: It's a Valve's game"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

You don't know what you're talking about. Native Metro apps written in C/C++ are basically the same as native Win32 apps: They use D3D11, swap chain/flip mode, game loop, input events, raw mouse support, etc. I know because, unlike you, I've actually written Metro games; not regurgitated lame BS that I read on some blog.


Why so hostile? Did I insult you?

In any case, let's see how many serious games will be available through Metro one year from now. Hint: it'll be very little.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: It's a Valve's game
by M.Onty on Tue 30th Oct 2012 19:04 in reply to "RE[5]: It's a Valve's game"
M.Onty Member since:
2009-10-23

"It isn't when you take long-term into account, something many people refuse to do here. Long-term, Windows is going Metro-only. That effectively kills any serious gaming on Windows - and Microsoft is okay with that, because they've got an Xbox to sell you.


You don't know what you're talking about. Native Metro apps written in C/C++ are basically the same as native Win32 apps ...
"

Thom didn't mention technical reasons. I assumed he was talking about the family friendly policy on the Windows Store, which suggests Microsoft want to see a certain kind of app on Metro/ModernUI, leaving the gung-ho gaming favourites to the console market.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[5]: It's a Valve's game
by ansidotsys on Tue 30th Oct 2012 16:33 in reply to "RE[4]: It's a Valve's game"
ansidotsys Member since:
2008-08-15

You're buying too much into Gabe's bullshit as if he is some sort of holy and honest defender of gaming territory. He's a defender of his own territory. The bottom line is this: Microsoft is not going to abandon the Win32 gaming market. To do, you have to make the following assumptions:

1) That Microsoft is willing throw away all of their backwards compatibility that they worked so hard to preserve the past few decades.

2) That Microsoft even WANTS to get rid of the desktop. Office 2013 runs on the desktop and do you honestly believe Office 2013 will be incompatible with Windows 9?

3) That Microsoft even CAN get rid of the desktop. As mentioned earlier, WinRT is built directly on top of Win32. The recently released .NET Framework 4.5 sits atop Win32 *AND* the desktop APIs.

In the past, Microsoft has taken many initiatives that developers did not agree with. With the .NET Framework, they wanted a world of managed code. Did they get it? Nope, just about every single game is still running on Win32. They wanted games on Windows 3.0 back in 1990. Did they get it? Nope, game devs continued making games for DOS until DirectX 6 and 7 came out, a whopping 8 years later.

Microsoft won't abandon the Windows desktop until everybody else does. Why? Because they can't. And why would they? Windows 8 has brought many improvements to the desktop, who's to stay Windows 9 won't bring even more? Sure, they focused heavily on touch this time around but that is because that is what they needed the most. Hell - do you think Gabe will?

Let's make this very clear: Gabe is not running from Windows 8 because of its deficiencies as a gaming platform, he's running from it because its strengths as one. If Microsoft improves the Metro UI, improves the Store policies, and improves their Xbox Live initiatives such to the point that it becomes an excellent gaming platform, it will kill Valve's position as an online publisher.

Imagine further in Windows 9 that the Windows Store comes to the desktop, further solidifying the staying of power of the desktop, yet retaining compatibility with all previous software built for Windows.

THAT is what Gabe fears.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[6]: It's a Valve's game
by M.Onty on Tue 30th Oct 2012 19:11 in reply to "RE[5]: It's a Valve's game"
M.Onty Member since:
2009-10-23

I think you're right to imagine Microsoft taking a far more pragmatic approach than Valve is suggesting. And Valve are certainly doing this for self preservation reasons. But its still worth looking forward to Linux for the desktop being knocked into better shape and thrust upon the world as a platform with a sense of purpose.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[5]: It's a Valve's game
by lucas_maximus on Tue 30th Oct 2012 17:52 in reply to "RE[4]: It's a Valve's game"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

It isn't when you take long-term into account, something many people refuse to do here. Long-term, Windows is going Metro-only. That effectively kills any serious gaming on Windows - and Microsoft is okay with that, because they've got an Xbox to sell you.


No it isn't. There is always going to be something like classic mode. There is just too much existing code to kill it off.

Which is exactly why Valve is working with AMD, NVIDIA, and others. The breakage is not something that's unstoppable or insurmountable - just look at Android.


Android is a completely different, they aren't even comparable.

Android development is controlled via Google. What sits underneath Android Layer could be anything ... It could be a modified OpenBSD, QNX or something else. When you develop for Android ... you develop against the Android SDK ... the fact that it is Linux is irrelevant to those who release Apps and Games.

Valve could easily work together with the parties involved to come to a - for Valve - stable platform for developers to target. If Google can, then Valve can


Only if there is a Steam Distro or we are using Ubuntu (which tends to push stuff buggy crap out early, like the pulse audio fiasco, and in another 6 months wayland).

Especially with the help of major other game companies with which they're already working anyway through Steam. Remember, a Metro-only no-serious-gaming Windows is disastrous for especially NVIDIA. Nobody needs a powerful graphics chip for Metro and Cut The Rope.


Oh great, so Valve now dictates what hardware will work best with their games, brilliant!

There is C++, Direct X and probably a lot of other stuff. There is no reason why triple A titles can't run in Metro. Considering the Unreal 3 Engine can run in Flash ... There is no reason why say the CryEngine or the Unreal 3 engine can't run in Metro.

You are stuck in the present, unable to look beyond the horizon. Windows' viability as a gaming platform will end in the very near future when Microsoft pulls the plug on the desktop. They've made it very clear they intend to do so, and luckily for us, Valve has the brains to start addressing that situation NOW, instead of when it's too late.


I just don't think the future is the same as you are predicting. That isn't the same as the fact that I don't understand what you are saying, I just disagree. Who is right or who will is wrong we will find out, pretending you are some sort of oracle just makes you sound like an arsehole.

I don't think anything like the Traditional Desktop is going to go away for maybe another decade, because there is just too much stuff written out there for the current Desktop.

Anyway, all my steam games work on Windows 8 perfectly fine, so that alone disproves Gabe's "viability argument".

Edited 2012-10-30 18:00 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[6]: It's a Valve's game
by karunko on Wed 31st Oct 2012 10:20 in reply to "RE[5]: It's a Valve's game"
karunko Member since:
2008-10-28

Anyway, all my steam games work on Windows 8 perfectly fine, so that alone disproves Gabe's "viability argument".

Exactly! And just a few days ago Tom's Hardware benchmarked a few games on both Windows 7 and Windows 8: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/windows-8-gaming-performance,33...

In other words, if someone has something to sell you, you better not take his words as the Gospel.

Also, although I would like to see modern games run on Linux without having to jump through hoops, I'm afraid it's never going to happen. A "Steam Box", on the other hand, is far more likely.


RT.



RT.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[6]: It's a Valve's game
by galvanash on Thu 1st Nov 2012 04:38 in reply to "RE[5]: It's a Valve's game"
galvanash Member since:
2006-01-25

No it isn't. There is always going to be something like classic mode. There is just too much existing code to kill it off.


snip...

I don't think anything like the Traditional Desktop is going to go away for maybe another decade, because there is just too much stuff written out there for the current Desktop.


That is exactly what people said about Rosetta when Apple shipped it in OSX 6 years ago..

It didn't even last 5 years.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[5]: It's a Valve's game
by WereCatf on Tue 30th Oct 2012 20:23 in reply to "RE[4]: It's a Valve's game"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

It isn't when you take long-term into account, something many people refuse to do here. Long-term, Windows is going Metro-only.


Thom, people aren't refusing to see the long-term plan, we are simply arguing the fact that no matter what Microsoft's plan for the future is doesn't make Windows 8 itself any more or less viable, it only makes the future versions less viable. What happens in the future happens in the future, and what we have right now is Windows 8 -- something that works just as well and peachy as its predecessor.

You're confusing long-term plans with the present.

Which is exactly why Valve is working with AMD, NVIDIA, and others. The breakage is not something that's unstoppable or insurmountable - just look at Android.


That comparison is dysfunctional. Android comes as a whole OS and you don't arbitrarily update parts of it, whereas under GNU/Linux the OS consists of thousands of individual packages, each of which can be updated separately. It's a whole lot easier to keep the one, large bundle functional without breakages than one that consists of so many small things and that keeps changing on a daily basis.

Reply Parent Score: 3