Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 15th Dec 2012 19:11 UTC
In the News "Peers and scientists including Professor Stephen Hawking are once again pushing for an official pardon for codebreaker Alan Turing. Turing's death from cyanide poisoning in 1954 was ruled a suicide, coming after his conviction for gross indecency at a time when homosexuality was illegal." The fact that he still hasn't been pardoned is an utter disgrace.
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RE[2]: fat lot of good
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 16th Dec 2012 13:09 UTC in reply to "RE: fat lot of good"
Thom_Holwerda
Member since:
2005-06-29

Regardless of whether the law was unjust, it was the law and Turing was guilty. I genuinely wish the circumstances were different, but they weren't. So if we set a precedence that historic figures are now considered innocent then where the hell do you draw the line? It would make current laws infinitely more difficult to maintain because any future change to the law could potentially see guilty people freed from jail on technicalities, or even innocent people sent to jail because of actions they did in their past.


So, we shouldn't honour Anne Frank? I mean, she clearly violated the laws of the time so, fcuk her, right?

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: fat lot of good
by Laurence on Sun 16th Dec 2012 14:36 in reply to "RE[2]: fat lot of good"
Laurence Member since:
2007-03-26


So, we shouldn't honour Anne Frank? I mean, she clearly violated the laws of the time so, fcuk her, right?

Did you even read my post? I wasn't saying we shouldn't honour Turing. I was saying we shouldn't pardon him because doing so would set a very dangerous legal precedence. There's a huge gulf of difference between the two.

I'm all for the government donating to related charities, opening up museums honouring his life or even having a Turing national holiday to remember him. Or any other way of remembering and honouring the guy that seems fit. However we should not undermine our legal system in the process, and that's a real risk if we pardon him.

Given how much law-related content you post on here, I thought you of all people would have grasped the implications of such a ruling.



...Anne Frank...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

[edit]

Also, I'm loving how you don't seem to give a rats arse about any of the other British homosexuals who were persecuted over that dumb law. To single Turing out like Anne Frank and say we should honour them specifically is just impassionate against the thousands of others who fell foul to unjust laws like this.

But who cares about the 'little' people just so long as your personal heroes are celebrated?

Edited 2012-12-16 14:48 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[4]: fat lot of good
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 16th Dec 2012 15:12 in reply to "RE[3]: fat lot of good"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

qAlso, I'm loving how you don't seem to give a rats arse about any of the other British homosexuals who were persecuted over that dumb law. To single Turing out like Anne Frank and say we should honour them specifically is just impassionate against the thousands of others who fell foul to unjust laws like this.

But who cares about the 'little' people just so long as your personal heroes are celebrated?


Movements have always had figureheads. A part representing the whole. Like William the Silent, the personification of the Dutch struggle against Spanish oppression, the Founding Fathers, Anne Frank, Rosa Parks, Ghandi, Aung San Suu Kyi, Martin Luther King, and loads of others, on both grand and smaller scales.

Caring about MLK was caring about the fate of African-Americans. Giving Aung San Suu Kyi the Nobel Peace Prize was acknowledging all the people in Myanmar, and honouring Anne Frank is, yes, honouring all those innocent people who shared a similar gruesome fate during the holocaust.

It even goes beyond people - Sniper Alley (Snajperska aleja) has, for me, become a "figure head" for the siege of Sarajevo, and the name alone makes me think of the countless innocent lives that were lost during that horrible war.

In the same way, honouring Turing would mean honouring all gay people both in and outside of the UK who shared similar fates - and, who are, in large parts of the world, still sharing the same fate. Heck, even in Europe, most countries' laws still consider gay people inferior - yes, in the UK too.

None of the above means you don't care about the other people behind the figure heads. I've never heard such a ridiculous thing in my entire life. In fact, it's grossly insulting.

Edited 2012-12-16 15:14 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[4]: fat lot of good
by JAlexoid on Mon 17th Dec 2012 01:17 in reply to "RE[3]: fat lot of good"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

I wasn't saying we shouldn't honour Turing. I was saying we shouldn't pardon him because doing so would set a very dangerous legal precedence.


Pardons aren't an issue of a precedent. They don't set legal precedents. They are by definition extraordinary cases.
And there are a lot of precedents where people have been pardoned after being found unequivocally guilty.

You may be against, but a precedent this would not set. Not would this be the first time.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: fat lot of good
by allanregistos on Tue 18th Dec 2012 04:18 in reply to "RE[2]: fat lot of good"
allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10


So, we shouldn't honour Anne Frank? I mean, she clearly violated the laws of the time so, fcuk her, right?


Thom, you are talking as though the morality of Sexual indecency is equivalent to a crime committed by the Nazis in the 40s. Its different, homosexuals' behaviors are not accepted generally in conservative countries like ours, and so we behave as much as the Nazis? And WHO ARE YOU to dictate that it is morally acceptable to just have same sex relationships in a society? Do you really have that evidence(by experimenting it yourself) that society remains healthy even if homosexuals practices are rampant?
It is still open to debate, while murder is murder from the very beginning.

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[4]: fat lot of good
by zima on Sat 22nd Dec 2012 16:19 in reply to "RE[3]: fat lot of good"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

They are very much present also in your society, just kinda hidden.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: fat lot of good
by Soulbender on Tue 18th Dec 2012 06:14 in reply to "RE[2]: fat lot of good"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

So, we shouldn't honour Anne Frank?


I'm sure you're aware that honoring and pardoning are two very different things.
No-one has said we shouldn't honor Turing.

Reply Parent Score: 2