Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 15th Dec 2012 19:11 UTC
In the News "Peers and scientists including Professor Stephen Hawking are once again pushing for an official pardon for codebreaker Alan Turing. Turing's death from cyanide poisoning in 1954 was ruled a suicide, coming after his conviction for gross indecency at a time when homosexuality was illegal." The fact that he still hasn't been pardoned is an utter disgrace.
Thread beginning with comment 545530
To view parent comment, click here.
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
RE[5]: And justice for some...
by JAlexoid on Mon 17th Dec 2012 14:13 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: And justice for some..."
JAlexoid
Member since:
2009-05-19

I remember being told "all men are equals" but I guess that was bullshit, eh?

It actually is total BS. Not all men are equal. Even égalité in French "Liberté, égalité, fraternité" doesn't mean that all men are equal. It means that all men should be treated as equally as possible...

it's interesting to note that at some point in time some would have made the same argument ("they're not equals") when choosing between a white man and a black man or, hey, a straight man and a gay man.

Yes. That is a problem where colour of the skin, nationality or sexuality override achievements and contributions to society.

I bet Turing himself would have been less than happy with your argument.

Only if he was a humble man.

you don't know what that other guy could accomplish later in life if you let him in the boat.

What about the "track record"? Try applying for a job with that attitude. Bring an empty CV stating "you don't know what I can accomplish later in life". Or maybe by the same logic you should take a cut in your salary/wage be be treated the same way as a person without a track record. You know... being paid a higher salary/wage is also a way of treating you unequally(Even though I implore you to not do that, because I believe strongly that discriminating based on lack of achievement is perfectly reasonable).

So in short, I doubt that you live up or even want to live up to your own ideals. Though I'm perfectly fine when being treated with less attention compared to people that are smarter/faster/stronger than me. Even if it means I'll be left on that sinking boat...

That's because they're quite often sociopaths.

That research only targeted CEOs, not founders and creators.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: And justice for some...
by Alfman on Tue 18th Dec 2012 04:42 in reply to "RE[5]: And justice for some..."
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

JAlexoid,

"Or maybe by the same logic you should take a cut in your salary/wage be be treated the same way as a person without a track record. You know... being paid a higher salary/wage is also a way of treating you unequally(Even though I implore you to not do that, because I believe strongly that discriminating based on lack of achievement is perfectly reasonable)."

Of course I understand what your saying, but we need to be extremely careful not to go too far down that line and assume that all wage discrimination is justified. Wage/Promotion gaps can be the CAUSE of achievement discrepancies as much as they might be the effect of them.

There was an eddie murphy movie where some wealthy guys made this very bet and swapped places with some poor bum. In the end the rich guys became impoverished and the poor one adopted quickly to high society. Of course this is just a fictional comedy from the 80s or so, but I think there is still some truth to it.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: And justice for some...
by zima on Sat 22nd Dec 2012 17:09 in reply to "RE[6]: And justice for some..."
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Wage/Promotion gaps can be the CAUSE of achievement discrepancies as much as they might be the effect of them.

Reminds me about one TED talk...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrkrvAUbU9Y (or an animated variant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc )

...this wage/promotion thing, as the cause, can work in unexpected direction ;)

Reply Parent Score: 2

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

That is a problem where colour of the skin, nationality or sexuality override achievements and contributions to society.


In both cases you arbitrarily assign more value to a person, be it because of color, sexual preference or past achievements,
How about when achievements and contributions override compassion?

What about the "track record"? Try applying for a job with that attitude.


Wow. Because dying at sea and not getting a job are comparable. Totally.

Or maybe by the same logic you should take a cut in your salary/wage be be treated the same way as a person without a track record.

Or hey, maybe that person could get paid the same amount as me if we're doing the same job? Or maybe I'm better at my job.
Neither has any bearing on leaving someone to die at sea.

So in short, I doubt that you live up or even want to live up to your own ideals


Because trying is bad. We should stop that and all be selfish. Besides, I'm pretty sure I would have favored neither Turing nor the other man in the situation we're talking about.

Reply Parent Score: 3

JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

In both cases you arbitrarily assign more value to a person, be it because of color, sexual preference or past achievements

Past achievements aren't arbitrary in most cases.

How about when achievements and contributions override compassion?

History would be totally different.

Wow. Because dying at sea and not getting a job are comparable. Totally.

Actually, in a lot of cases it is. But my leaving to die at sea was a hyperbole, subsequent reply was not using that hyperbole. Too bad you stuck to that point and blew it's significance out of proportion.

Or hey, maybe that person could get paid the same amount as me if we're doing the same job? Or maybe I'm better at my job.

Ah... See? Even there you put in discrimination based on "same job". Why should a cleaner be paid less than you?
I'm sure you are better at your job. That is why I said I don't want you to go all "no discrimination based on achievement". Your past achievement is what sets your salary. Your contributions to society are valued more then the contributions of a cleaner.

The same reason why Turing is the spearhead into making these pardons a simple political decision. His contributions and achievements are much bigger than any of the other people who were convicted.

Because trying is bad. We should stop that and all be selfish.

You do realize that you started complaining that Hawking throwing his support for individual pardon(which is politically easier). That is that "trying".
And so far, you've held the line that no one should be pardoned unless everyone is pardoned.

Besides, I'm pretty sure I would have favored neither Turing nor the other man in the situation we're talking about.

The described situation is a hyperbole and we are talking about discrimination.

Reply Parent Score: 2