Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 27th Dec 2012 10:19 UTC, submitted by anonymous
General Development "Computers are ubiquitous in modern life. They offer us portals to information and entertainment, and they handle the complex tasks needed to keep many facets of modern society running smoothly. Chances are, there is not a single person in Ars' readership whose day-to-day existence doesn't rely on computers in one manner or another. Despite this, very few people know how computers actually do the things that they do. How does one go from what is really nothing more than a collection - a very large collection, mind you - of switches to the things we see powering the modern world?"
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TM99
Member since:
2012-08-26

Listen you little shit. You think you are such a smart young man. "Look at my predictions." I am unique in what I predict, and if anyone disagrees, then fuck them, they are just old, stupid, etc.

Well, your fucking little idea is not original. In fact, it sounds an awful lot like the plagiarism of a DARPA grant proposal done in collaboration between the Corporation for National Research Initiatives (CNRI) & the Python group called CP4E (Computer Programming for Everyone.) It's basic premise is best shared as quotes:

We ask a follow-up question: "What will happen if users can program their own computer?" We're looking forward to a future where every computer user will be able to "open the hood" of their computer and make improvements to the applications inside. We believe that this will eventually change the nature of software and software development tools fundamentally.

We compare mass ability to read and write software with mass literacy, and predict equally pervasive changes to society. Hardware is now sufficiently fast and cheap to make mass computer education possible: the next big change will happen when most computer users have the knowledge and power to create and modify software.The open source movement claims that peer review of software by thousands can greatly improve the quality of software. The success of Linux shows the value of this claim. We believe that the next step, having millions (or billions) of programmers, will cause a change of a different quality--the abundant availability of personalized software.

The tools needed for this new way to look at programming will be different from the tools currently available to professional programmers. We intend to greatly improve both the training material and the development tools available. For example, non-professional programmers should not have to fear that a small mistake might destroy their work or render their computer unusable. They also need better tools to help them understand the structure of a program, whether explicit or implied in the source code.

Our plan has three components:

Develop a new computing curriculum suitable for high school and college students.
Create better, easier to use tools for program development and analysis.
Build a user community around all of the above, encouraging feedback and self-help.
These components come together in the scientific exploration of the role of programming in next generation computing environments.

We intend to start with Python, a language designed for rapid development. We believe that Python makes a great first language to learn: Unlike languages designed specifically for beginners, Python is also the choice of many programming professionals. It has an active, growing user community which has already expressed much interest in this proposal, and we expect that this will be a fertile first deployment ground for the teaching materials and tools we propose to create. During the course of the research we will evaluate Python and propose improvements or alternatives.


http://www.python.org/doc/essays/cp4e.html

Yup, that sounds pretty much word for word what you have been sharing with us here in this discussion, doesn't it?

Now, comes the fucking reality check. The reason I chose the time frame of 5 years is because that is a standard time frame for grant models involving things just like this. So, yeah, real world shit instead of your 'ideas' about statistics.

So how well did this program do? Turns out, not so well. Funding was received for one year. Then the people moved on. The program was never renewed and as it states on the Python.org archive page for this now defunct project, "It is in limbo". The Python in Education Special Interest Group is a dead link. The CNRI have moved on with no initiatives involving anything like this. DARPA has nothing either.

So, yeah, this isn't going to happen. I don't need even five years to predict this. I can look at an initiative from over 13 years ago that failed before it even reached its five year goal mark. You want something in this current climate to become 'mainstream', a part of society? It is done in collaboration between the government, academia, and then private corporations. You do know the history of the internet, right?

Well, government right now in America is cutting funding and social services. It is all about 'austerity' and balancing the budget after we over-spent on two fucking wars. Academia is becoming less liberal and idealistic and more conservative and pragmatic. Most institutions, including the ones I teach at, are now partnering with corporations to increase their funding which dictates in part what is being researched and taught. Finally corporations want more 'users' than 'developers'. Users buy hardware and software constantly. Developers are now being locked into 'proprietary' off-shoots of open programming languages and being driven to constantly upgrade to the next development model being driven by the user's consumerism. But, hey, you know this too, because you work in IT, right?

We all live in bubbles. Mine is just a lot bigger. Between a private consulting business, work at various corporations and government agencies, and teaching, I have experienced and learned a lot more. That is one of the nice things about being 'older'. We have the experience and knowledge to actually start getting it.

For now, kid, you just don't get shit. Hopefully, you will out-grow it and that you are not representative of your generation.

Reply Parent Score: 1

kwan_e Member since:
2007-02-18

Listen you little shit. You think you are such a smart young man. "Look at my predictions." I am unique in what I predict, and if anyone disagrees, then fuck them, they are just old, stupid, etc.


Never said my predictions were "unique".

You haven't actually touched any of my points at all, but continue to argue strawmen that you've projected onto my comments.

Well, your fucking little idea is not original.


Never said it was, dumbass.

In fact, it sounds an awful lot like the plagiarism of a DARPA grant proposal done in collaboration between the Corporation for National Research Initiatives (CNRI) & the Python group called CP4E (Computer Programming for Everyone.) It's basic premise is best shared as quotes:


I never said anything about school programs. I keep talking about things HAPPENING OUTSIDE OF SCHOOL. DO YOU HAVE GLASSES OR DO I HAVE TO KEEP WRITING IN ALL CAPS?

Yup, that sounds pretty much word for word what you have been sharing with us here in this discussion, doesn't it?


No, NOT word for word at all. And some of the "plan" actually DOES EXIST RIGHT NOW. Fuck you're an idiot.

Now, comes the fucking reality check. The reason I chose the time frame of 5 years is because that is a standard time frame for grant models involving things just like this. So, yeah, real world shit instead of your 'ideas' about statistics.


Then you are arguing a strawman. My prediction is about the next 50 years. Argue my prediction, or get the fuck out.

So how well did this program do? Turns out, not so well. Funding was received for one year. Then the people moved on. The program was never renewed and as it states on the Python.org archive page for this now defunct project, "It is in limbo". The Python in Education Special Interest Group is a dead link. The CNRI have moved on with no initiatives involving anything like this. DARPA has nothing either.


And this is why no student has ever picked up Python again... oh wait, no it didn't.

You're still stuck on "official programs". What's happening now is pretty much not done by any single organizational effort. You never heard of "grass roots"?

So, yeah, this isn't going to happen. I don't need even five years to predict this. I can look at an initiative from over 13 years ago that failed before it even reached its five year goal mark. You want something in this current climate to become 'mainstream', a part of society? It is done in collaboration between the government, academia, and then private corporations. You do know the history of the internet, right?


You keep saying "want" or "dream". I'm saying it "will" happen whether anyone wants or not. Stop trying to put words in my mouth you retard.

Well, government right now in America is cutting funding and social services. It is all about 'austerity' and balancing the budget after we over-spent on two fucking wars. Academia is becoming less liberal and idealistic and more conservative and pragmatic. Most institutions, including the ones I teach at, are now partnering with corporations to increase their funding which dictates in part what is being researched and taught. Finally corporations want more 'users' than 'developers'. Users buy hardware and software constantly. Developers are now being locked into 'proprietary' off-shoots of open programming languages and being driven to constantly upgrade to the next development model being driven by the user's consumerism. But, hey, you know this too, because you work in IT, right?


Because EVERYTHING in IT has happened purely in corporate settings, and corporate settings have been oh so successful, right?

We all live in bubbles. Mine is just a lot bigger. Between a private consulting business, work at various corporations and government agencies, and teaching, I have experienced and learned a lot more.


Explain how more people today can drop out of university and manage a successful IT based startup and why your bubble doesn't account for that. Your narrow field of view obviously never incorporates anything that happens outside of it.

For now, kid, you just don't get shit. Hopefully, you will out-grow it and that you are not representative of your generation.


I never said I was. THAT WAS YOU. You're claiming everyone in America was like you. Everyone learned how to program because everyone had a computer. THAT WAS YOU.

Here's an easy test. How many people of your age either has a programming job or some hobby involving programming at some time in their life? I can tell you it wasn't 100% of the American population at your age. I can tell you it's probably not even close to 10%.

You are fucking delusional. Prescribe yourself some pills for your psychosis.

Reply Parent Score: 2

TM99 Member since:
2012-08-26

This is actually become quite fascinating the way you move the goalposts, fail to use logic, and aren't even apparently aware of your own premises.

So, how exactly did the general population become literate and maths capable? Was it a grass-roots effort? Read a history book for the answer, smart ass.

That's why it isn't a straw-man to point out that your premise requires formal education in order to be even remotely accurate as a predication whether in 5 or 50 years, and I provided you several excellent rebuttal as to why that isn't going to happen. They included failed attempts like the CP4E program over 13 years ago in order to implement such an education program (the only part of that program still in existence is the IDLE - look it up on the fucking webpage!); the changing technology since when I was a kid when more 'programming' knowledge was needed to use the damned things (not that everyone had them or programmed them to the level of literacy just that there was more of a need and a greater thrust in the public education systems to 'learn' about computers not just 'use' computers like today); and the current corporate business model like Apple and Microsoft's walled-gardens, vertically integrated hardware & software solutions, transparent & easy to use 'computing devices' and run-away consumerism.

Sure Python is a very popular programming language, but that doesn't mean that it is being used in enough schools where this 'programming literacy' will have to be implemented in order to become wide-spread as you predict in 50 years. Populations became literate due to institutions like the state and the church.

And yes, it is fucking idealistic and delusional I might add, to imagine that some grass-roots effort involving websites like the Khan Academy online are going to some how make populations computer programming literate in the next 50 years. You and I enjoy programming even if only one of us is actually in the field itself.

How many of your friends and family are not in the field? How many of them program? How many actually turn to you for assistance on usage as opposed to figuring out what is going on behinds the scenes? How many of your neighbors? How many of their kids? Have you got kids yourself? Have you got any idea what is happening with children in the public educational system?

You may be too young to remember 'shop classes'. They were a regular part of public high school education in America. They are no longer. Why? One reason is the thrust of simply getting schools tested and into colleges. Another reason is that most appliances, cars, etc. are not worked on daily by the general population in the way that they were 50 years ago. If I can't program an embedded device how to I fix my new Kia? Microwaves are thrown out, not kept and fixed. We pay a repairman to come fix the complicated computer-based dishwashers. The same has become true for computers and programming. It is simply not necessary to use the damned things any more. I can play my games, purchase my apps, send texts, surf for porn, and never need to know what the fuck the device is doing, how it is doing it, and how do make it do things I want it to do.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tarabrown/2012/05/30/the-death-of-shop-...

Here's an easy test. How many people of your age either has a programming job or some hobby involving programming at some time in their life? I can tell you it wasn't 100% of the American population at your age. I can tell you it's probably not even close to 10%.


So who is putting words into the other's mouth. I never said it was 100%. Look up this little statistic dumb ass. How many women in the 1970's and 1980's became computer programmers? Compare and contrast that to how many young women in 1990's and 2000's became computer programmers. Extrapolate from there some possible reasons and causes. That might answer a few of your oppositions to some of my comments.

Just because you believe it will happen, doesn't mean it will. Which, I might, is a sure sign of psychosis. So your response I am sure will be pithy, entertaining, and delusional like all of your other ones have been.

Have at it. This is quite entertaining now watching you dig yourself deeper and deeper in the bullshit.

Reply Parent Score: 1