Linked by Yoni on Fri 18th Jan 2013 21:56 UTC
Apple "Never mind the fact that the iPod turned the entire music industry on its head. Never mind the fact that most successful notebooks today resemble designs first popularized by Apple. Never mind the fact that the blueprint of the modern day smartphone remains the original iPhone. Never mind the fact that competitors are scrambling wildly to copy the success and design of the iPad. Forget all of these things, because when it comes to Apple, the 'what have you done for me lately?' mentality reigns supreme."
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Reponse
by WorknMan on Fri 18th Jan 2013 22:21 UTC
WorknMan
Member since:
2005-11-13

I think my response can be summed up in just one image:

http://techmog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/android-evolution.jpg

It's cool to be innovators (just ask Nintendo), but as Microsoft found out with IE6, being the best on the block only buys you so much time. Your competition will eventually catch up and surpass you. While Android continues to improve by leaps and bounds, iOS is getting very stale, so Apple had better do something big. And do it soon.

Edited 2013-01-18 22:24 UTC

Reply Score: 13

RE: Reponse
by wigry on Fri 18th Jan 2013 22:29 in reply to "Reponse"
wigry Member since:
2008-10-09

But then again everybody (most of them anyway) are upset if Microsoft dears to innovate in Windows. Everybody are happy to use the concepts put in place in 1995. But if Apple uses the same UI concept for 5 years then it is already stale and old and out of fashion?

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Reponse
by Thom_Holwerda on Fri 18th Jan 2013 22:31 in reply to "RE: Reponse"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

That's easily explained: Windows 8 is disliked because it forces a touch interface on a mouse/keyboard system.

Metro should have been restricted to tablets/smartphones, and Microsoft should have saved the desktop for regular PCs.

Reply Parent Score: 20

RE[2]: Reponse
by WorknMan on Fri 18th Jan 2013 22:34 in reply to "RE: Reponse"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

But then again everybody (most of them anyway) are upset if Microsoft dears to innovate in Windows.


Microsoft's idea of Windows innovation is putting a tablet OS on a desktop, so of course people are going to reject it, and rightfully so. Metro on Windows 8 sucks so much ass, it's amazing that it even went past the conception stage. It is a joke. A complete clusterf**k.

The difference between MS and Apple is that when Apple tries to innovate, they're reasonably competent at it. MS can't innovate shit. Hell, MS has tried to copy Apple in many areas (*cough* Zune *cough*) and they can't even get that right.

Reply Parent Score: 7

RE[2]: Reponse
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Fri 18th Jan 2013 22:40 in reply to "RE: Reponse"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Change can be good or bad. Microsoft's change was bad, that's why its getting slapped around. That isn't to say that all change is bad.

Smart companies are always looking at how to do what the customer does today, better tomorrow. Apple has made major attempts at improvements to ios : Cut & Paste, multi-tasking, the app store and siri. Some of those are so basic as to be embarrassing, but major improvements none the less. Apple has also always been super secretive on its R&D, so no news isn't necessarily good or bad news.

That said, it was a stupid article which could be summed up as : people who criticize apple tend to criticize apple. Then it throws un sourced numbers out of the air to indicate that Apple's doing great because people are buying their current products. Rim and Nokia were doing great a year after the iphone too...

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[2]: Reponse
by WereCatf on Sat 19th Jan 2013 00:25 in reply to "RE: Reponse"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

But then again everybody (most of them anyway) are upset if Microsoft dears to innovate in Windows. Everybody are happy to use the concepts put in place in 1995. But if Apple uses the same UI concept for 5 years then it is already stale and old and out of fashion?


Rubbish.

The problem isn't with Microsoft innovating, the problem is with Microsoft removing freedoms and useful functionality and forcing round-about ways of doing things in the name of innovation. The complaints are about Metro's short-comings, not about Microsoft trying to innovate, and you seem to be terribly confused about that. You do realize that one can appreciate development and innovation while still criticizing the short-comings, yes?

Reply Parent Score: 10

RE[2]: Reponse
by bassbeast on Sat 19th Jan 2013 17:13 in reply to "RE: Reponse"
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

Nobody minds if MSFT innovates, what they mind is when MSFT puts out a BROKEN interface.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTYet-qf1jo

Watch the video, here is a guy that writes TECH ARTICLES and has written about multiple OSes and even HE can't find what should be simple tools that everybody will need, simple things like "how to make a restore disc" and "How do i close metro Apps" because MSFT doesn't explain anything or give ANY context for the user to learn the new UI, which leads to frustration.

I had a PC running win 8 at the shop for nearly 7 months for users to try and I can tell you he is NOT alone, none of my users could figure out how to do squat without using one of the other PCs to Google what to do which when you need a Win 7 PC just so you can Google how to use the Win 8 PC? I'm sorry but that isn't innovation, that is just broken.

I've been using PCs since the VIC 20, I'm always up for trying and learning new OSes, but after a month of Win 8 I wanted to pull my hair out. its so obviously built for touch that it hurts. "Well what is wrong with that?" most will ask. Simple less than 2% of the PCs on the planet are touch and that isn't gonna change anytime soon and using a trackpad with it is just agony, it can't decide whether you are swiping or moving so half the time you'll get one, half the time the other, the whole OS feels random and out of control.

Reply Parent Score: 7

RE: Reponse
by Thom_Holwerda on Fri 18th Jan 2013 22:29 in reply to "Reponse"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

That's exactly what happened in the PC space. Apple stagnated completely - the classic Mac OS was a trainwreck, and even though some are unwilling to admit it, Windows was better. Windows 2000 was leaps and bounds better, and Windows XP just ran circles around classic Mac OS and early Mac OS X.

iOS is in danger of the same fate. I'm really hoping Apple has some cool stuff to come for iOS, because right now, going back to iOS after using Android and Windows Phone feels like going 5 years back in time.

Reply Parent Score: 10

RE[2]: Reponse
by moondevil on Fri 18th Jan 2013 23:54 in reply to "RE: Reponse"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

Lets not forget the price.

In Portugal during the 80-90's, Apple hardware was way much more expensive than PCs.

Only at the university I did see someone really using them, and we did have a few LCs available alongside countless VT 100, X terminals and PCs.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[2]: Reponse
by shotsman on Sat 19th Jan 2013 05:34 in reply to "RE: Reponse"
shotsman Member since:
2005-07-22

So Thom, you are one of those who must have the latest shiny, shiny UI then?

If IOS is a bit dated so what? Does it do what it is supposed to do? If not then it needs changing.

IMHO, there is far to many people riding roughshod over the 'If it ain't broker then don't fix it.'

Sure there will be changes to IOS, there always is.

Take the basic LandRover defender. The current model is the same shape and does the same job as the one first produced in 1948. you can see the design history in the current model that dates back to the first one.
Does it work? Yes it does. So why change it.

I fully expect that around Android 4.4 it will stop changing so much and then in a few years/months people will start saying 'boy does this Android look dated now'.
Will you be one of them Thom? I am sure we would all like to know?

There again, I and I am sure a good number of other OSNews readers would like to know that you think should be done to iOS to make it 'shiny shiny' again? It is all right criticising something but isn't it a bit more productive to make suggestions for change at the same time as saying it is dated?

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Reponse
by tomcat on Sat 19th Jan 2013 11:24 in reply to "RE: Reponse"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

That's exactly what happened in the PC space. Apple stagnated completely - the classic Mac OS was a trainwreck, and even though some are unwilling to admit it, Windows was better. Windows 2000 was leaps and bounds better, and Windows XP just ran circles around classic Mac OS and early Mac OS X.

iOS is in danger of the same fate. I'm really hoping Apple has some cool stuff to come for iOS, because right now, going back to iOS after using Android and Windows Phone feels like going 5 years back in time.


Absolutely. The latest version of iOS is klunky and amateurish compared to Android and WP8. Apple captured people's imaginations by releasing revolutionary hardware and software. It's no longer doing that. Its releases are purely evolutionary (more pixels, smaller, lighter, stronger); and while these advances aren't trivial, they just aren't enough to hold off the competition anymore. Its UI design is stale and dated. Apple has to do something revolutionary in order to convince people that it's still innovating but, quite frankly, the market is betting against that possibility. Tim Cook is no Steve Jobs. Apple peaked last year and, while I don't doubt that the company's future is secure thanks to its immense cash hoard and devoted fan base of dumb, fashion-oriented lemmings, its market share in key markets is going to continue to slide, in my opinion.

P.S. The Maps and senior staff outflow debacles have undermined confidence in the Apple brand, as well.

Edited 2013-01-19 11:27 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Reponse
by bassbeast on Mon 21st Jan 2013 02:06 in reply to "RE: Reponse"
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

I have a question...how do you stand the WinPhone appstore?

Because I had a friend that got one despite my warnings (I had the misfortune of getting a couple of games that use GFWL and I figured if they couldn't even copy Valve correctly the odds of them copying Apple correctly were virtually nil) and sure enough just a month after getting the phone he ended up putting it on eBay just to recoup some of his costs because the appstore is such a mess.

So I am curious if you feel the same as he did, which was the hardware and OS was nice, it was a shame that the appstore was so horribly broken it made it at least for him not worth owning.

And I do agree Win2K was incredible which is what makes Win 8 so painful for me. Win 7 was the first OS since Win2K that truly impressed me, in fact I would argue its as close to perfection as one can get on a desktop or laptop. Incredible memory management that learns as you use it, breadcrumbs and jumplists making getting back to where you were working at simple and intuitive, a sane driver subsystem that can kill and restart drivers without a crash, intelligent application caching, its truly top shelf.

Which is what makes Win 8 so painful as its like they fired everybody that made this good thing and replaced them with somebody whose idea of OSes is cheap Chinese knockoffs. in fact i think that is the perfect description of Win 8, its a Chinese knockoff. Like a Chinese knockoff it has a few superficial things that look like the original but once you actually use it the experience is just wrong and fake and bad. And like a Chinese knockoff the iconography doesn't even follow conventions or make any sense!

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Reponse
by ezraz on Mon 21st Jan 2013 18:34 in reply to "RE: Reponse"
ezraz Member since:
2012-06-20

That's exactly what happened in the PC space. Apple stagnated completely - the classic Mac OS was a trainwreck, and even though some are unwilling to admit it, Windows was better. Windows 2000 was leaps and bounds better, and Windows XP just ran circles around classic Mac OS and early Mac OS X.

iOS is in danger of the same fate. I'm really hoping Apple has some cool stuff to come for iOS, because right now, going back to iOS after using Android and Windows Phone feels like going 5 years back in time.



This is revisionist history. The 'stagnant' Apple you speak of owned desktop publishing, graphics, CD Rom development, digital audio editing, was a major player in handheld, handwriting recognition, and object-oriented computing. Macs were priced higher than a Windows 95 machine but still had far more built in features, reliability, and resale value, so the value proposition was strong for Mac or it's mid-90's clones.

At least in the US. I know this is a European site and I notice the difference in markets. I know Apple did not have the success in Europe that it did in the US. I do wish you would remember this, being that Apple is a very american company.

In my opinion, the business of clones, backward engineering, and 3rd party developer relations is what doomed the original mac to small market share. Microsoft's design hurt them (and still does). The company is run by dorks, for dorks, the kind of people who see no difference between a plastic fork and anything else. Apple appeals to a sense of both engineering grace and human touch, sight, hearing, etc. Apple considers people's senses, like a great designer. Very european, actually ;-)

The same playbook has been played by Android, but it's still just the chaos of java/linux trying to compete with the ultra-organized (and now wildly rich) Apple. The App store, the itunes media empire, the jillions of ipods around the world... it was an amazing strategy and it's still crushing competitors in the way. Android exists by being the non-Apple iOS in my opinion. Most people that have android don't even know, it's just "a smartphone". It's like the last people to get a smartphone on the planet get an android for free.

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE: Reponse
by Nelson on Fri 18th Jan 2013 22:31 in reply to "Reponse"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Android has changed so much because it needed to change. It is just now with JellyBean becoming reasonably usable w.r.t performance.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[2]: Reponse
by WorknMan on Fri 18th Jan 2013 22:37 in reply to "RE: Reponse"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

But then again everybody (most of them anyway) are upset if Microsoft dears to innovate in Windows.


It's always been usable, it's just that vendors did some horrific things with it and put it on underpowered hardware. As long as you had the right phone, it was fine. Even in 2009 with the original Droid, it was light years ahead of iOS. Anything that ran stock (as opposed to skins like NonSense or Bloatoblur) ran beautifully. Maybe not as smooth as iOS, but smooth enough.

It's like Linux... ya just gotta be using the right distro ;) hehe

Edited 2013-01-18 22:40 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Reponse
by Soulbender on Sat 19th Jan 2013 05:25 in reply to "RE: Reponse"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Really? Is that why my Gingerbread phone runs so well? (Especially for a phone that cost a tenth of an iPhone).

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE: Reponse
by mdsama on Fri 18th Jan 2013 23:22 in reply to "Reponse"
mdsama Member since:
2005-07-08

I think you have a good point, but the image... That isn't exactly a huge evolution, really, is it?
The phones (and interfaces) got blacker, and then slightly bigger...

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE: Reponse
by bassbeast on Sat 19th Jan 2013 06:19 in reply to "Reponse"
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

Even that though ignores what we are seeing in the mobile market which is an exact (on fast forward) repeat of what we saw in X86.

You have the chip used in all these systems (ARM) hitting a thermal wall and going from MHz wars to core wars, with Nvidia up to 5 and Samsung up to 6, and just like with X86 we are seeing that when they can no longer compete on speed (because the average user won't "feel" the difference between a dual and a quad because writing programs that scale with cores is VERY difficult) so they are competing the only way they can...on price.

This severely hurts Apple as while there will always be Apple fans that will pay any cost for the Apple logo most folks? Just want a device that works. Apple has already basically admitted this by keeping their older models being built as well as introducing the iPad Mini but even that isn't gonna help when you have offerings like Kindle Fire for $200 and from the looks of it we'll have dual core tablets running the latest Android for $100 or less by this summer.

The reason Apple HAS to have "the next big thing" is that is how Jobs kept the Apple premium so high, they were the first in the market and were cutting edge. The longer they are in a market the more the market will sour for them as they are no longer unique and therefor can't command the premium prices anymore. Just look at how few X86 laptops they sell compared to the larger market, how Android smartphones are exploding thanks to having price points for everybody (they even have a $75 USD Android 4 phone at Walmart on their pre-paid and it actually works quite nicely) and now in tablets we are seeing more and more units with nicer hardware at lower prices, because they don't have to please Wall Street with higher profit margins.

So its not so much "what have you done for me lately?" its instead "If we don't have a new market we are gonna end up in commodity land" because as any retailer will tell you "good enough" with cheap prices will always end up winning in the end. Apple will always have a niche but without new markets it will continually become a smaller niche until it becomes a repeat of X86.

Reply Parent Score: 9

RE[2]: Reponse
by Soulbender on Sat 19th Jan 2013 06:51 in reply to "RE: Reponse"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

+1 insightful

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Reponse
by Tony Swash on Sun 20th Jan 2013 13:24 in reply to "RE: Reponse"
Tony Swash Member since:
2009-08-22

Even that though ignores what we are seeing in the mobile market which is an exact (on fast forward) repeat of what we saw in X86


I think that is a common but completely wrong interpretation of what is happening in the mobile device markets. What is interesting is how different the mobile device markets are and how differently the dynamics of platform performance in the mobile device markets are compared to the PC markets.

In the PC era a Mac was pretty much an equivalent of a Wintel PC when it came to platform utilisation. On both Macs and Wintel PCs people did pretty much the same things, they all ran programs to do similar things and with similar patterns of usage. It was probably true that there was a slightly higher amount of graphic design being done on Macs compared to Wintel PCs but that difference wasn't hugely significant and the difference faded over time. People generally used their Macs as much as people used their Wintel PCs and people generally pretty much did the same sort of stuff on both platforms.

This was very important.

Because is meant that one Mac and one Wintel PC had an equivalent impact and value when it came to platform utilisation. Broadly speaking if twice as many Wintel PCs were sold as Macs then there would be twice as many people buying Wintel PC software, twice as many Wintel PC compatible documents would be produced, twice as many web pages would be surfed using Wintel PC browsers, etc etc. Broadly a Mac was only as valuable as a Wintel PC in the larger PC ecosystem and value chain.

And this this meant that if the ratio of Wintel PCs sold to Macs was ten to one then Wintel PCs would utterly dominate the PC ecosystem and value chain. Macs were marginalised because the money followed the consumers and the Mac ecosystem became less attractive and this in turn drove even more marginalistion.

This is what people think is happening with iOS versus Android. But it isn't.

Mobile device platform utilisation can be measured by these sort of common sense metrics (I have probably missed some)

Web browsing
Web commerce
Developer revenues
Peripheral makers revenues
Hardware makers profits
Advertising income and spend
Availability of digital content

The most striking thing when one looks at the statistics for these sorts of platform utilisation metrics is how consistently they show iOS significantly out performing Android. It seems that in terms of platform utilisation, and therefore in terms of added value in the ecosystem, one average iOS user is worth several times one average Android user.

This is has very big implications. It means that in order for the Android ecosystem to just reach parity with the iOS ecosystem there needs to be something between four and ten times as many Android devices as iOS devices in the installed base. In order for Android to have a richer and healthier ecosystem than iOS might require Android to achieve an installed base twenty or more times that of iOS.

The mobile device market is not the PC market. The dynamic is completely different and trying to analyse it using concepts and patterns from the PC era will lead to a misunderstanding of what is happening.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: Reponse
by MOS6510 on Sat 19th Jan 2013 07:50 in reply to "Reponse"
MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

It could explain the high marks the iPhone always gets for user satisfactions and the much lower scores for Android.

Use an iPhone, buy a newer model, synch back your settings/apps and you instantly know how to use it and everything is there. There is no learning curve when upgrading to a new model. Besides the fun/usefulness is in the 3rd party apps. iOS gets nicely out of the way. The Android fans here make it sound like people are using the OS itself all day or keep staring at the home screen. Normal users launch their favorite apps.

Android keeps changing, manufacturers keep adding their own UIs. Switching either OS, model or brand and it's a new and confusing experience.

Apple adds features to each iOS release, but the basics remain the same. You are not forced to first master these changes to be able to use your device. They do the same with OS X.

Looking at usage statistics iPhone users are much more active, while Android users aren't and kind of seem so lost that they don't even bother figuring out how it all works.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Reponse
by Tony Swash on Sat 19th Jan 2013 11:57 in reply to "Reponse"
Tony Swash Member since:
2009-08-22

I think much of the techie community, certainly those sections not that keen or positively hostile to Apple, are still reeling from the explosion of Apple in the last decade or so. Apple's mode of operation (vertically integrated, software-hardware combined, etc) was ideally suited to the next phase of tech evolution which was the spread of powerful touch operated computers in tiny and cheap consumer objects but Apple could have easily fluffed it.

They didn't.

Instead they had a brilliant decade of execution and innovation that built a huge empire and actually drove the new mobile device markets. Even with all it's units shipped Android still cannot come close to iOS in terms of the metrics of actual platform utilisation.

I cannot see how Apple can fail to grow, prosper and be one of the two platforms that will dominate the mobile device markets for the next decade even if everything they do is just iteration from now on in. They are almost the only player that holds all the cards, they just have to play them reasonably competently.

The inability to appreciate what Apple is capable of and to write them off is exemplified by this article

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2006/sep/13/comment.business

Guess what the article is about before you read it.

Here are a couple of quotes from it:

Apple is losing its hip and unpredictable edge as it risks being left behind by the very technology it helped to proliferate…

Make no mistake, these are going to be difficult times for Apple. Jobs’s resuscitation of the company after it nearly collapsed, is one of the great corporate turnarounds of US business history. But gratitude also belongs to history. From now on, Apple faces stiff competition on all fronts.

Reply Parent Score: -1

RE[2]: Reponse
by Thom_Holwerda on Sat 19th Jan 2013 12:45 in reply to "RE: Reponse"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Are you a pastebot for Gruber, Dalrymple, and their associates?

I swear you just repost their stuff as comments here.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Reponse
by JAlexoid on Mon 21st Jan 2013 06:38 in reply to "RE: Reponse"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

I cannot see how Apple can fail to grow


Hahahahahaha!!! Really? How about they iterate and everyone else is innovating? What if Windows Phone actually gets it's big break? Even the fact that they released iPad Mini shows that they don't share the blind love/faith you do.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE: Reponse
by wocowboy on Sat 19th Jan 2013 12:47 in reply to "Reponse"
wocowboy Member since:
2006-06-01

And how many hundred million of those classic-design iPhones have they sold in all that time? Is it more or less than those Androids?

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: Reponse
by lustyd on Sun 20th Jan 2013 19:30 in reply to "Reponse"
lustyd Member since:
2008-06-19

"I think my response can be summed up in just one image:

http://techmog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/android-evolution.jpg...

I completely agree. Apple designed an interface before release and has since been able to reap the rewards of a stable platform for developers and users alike.

Android, as shown in your excelent picture, was released as pre-beta with no thought to usability. It has taken many iterations and redesigns and is only now becoming a usable system after many years. Unfortunately users and developers alike cannot rely on even this version being carried forward and becoming a stable environment to learn.

Reply Parent Score: -1

RE[2]: Reponse
by zima on Thu 24th Jan 2013 17:39 in reply to "RE: Reponse"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Just because the UI remains how it was originally designed, doesn't mean it's optimal - Apple for the first year didn't even allow 3rd party apps, IT WASN'T A PLATFORM AT ALL for developers.

Reply Parent Score: 2