Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 22nd Jan 2013 21:28 UTC, submitted by lemur2
Linux "If you consider NetApplications' data set, then Linux owns only about 1 percent of the desktop OS market and Windows has almost 92 percent. But if you consider all computing platforms, including mobile, than Windows has only 20 percent and Linux has 42 percent - and that would be in the form of Google's Android alone." No more or less legitimate than claiming Windows owns 92% of the market. It's all a matter of perspective.
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RE[5]: Marketshare
by lemur2 on Wed 23rd Jan 2013 00:46 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Marketshare"
lemur2
Member since:
2007-02-17

"This is a myth. The selection of commonly-used desktop applications (mail client, web browser, file manager & utilities, office suite, say photo management & editing, etc) for Linux, along with the lack of malware and crapware and the need for anti-virus, make desktop Linux a far better choice for most people, since most people by far are not gamers.


I didn't say Linux didn't have any commonly-used desktop apps. I said there are BETTER ones and a WIDER VARIETY of them on other platforms.
"

There are indeed a wider variety of desktop applications on other platforms, but they are not any better.

"it is an utter myth that desktop Linux is deficient, except for the fact that most people are not offered a convenient and cost-proportionate way to purchase it pre-installed on decent hardware.


And if they were, you could kiss that 'no crapware' sales pitch goodbye. Need proof? Just look at all the vile shit that is done to Android. If you want a decent Android phone without somebody putting crapware all over it, you basically have one model a year to choose from, and even that one is nearly impossible to get at the moment. Oh, I have that phone btw, and it is awesome ;)
"

Actually, as it happens, I am typing this message on a consumer laptop machine that came pre-installed with Ubuntu and no crapware. I purchased it via a customisation page similar to the one linked below, by selecting "Ubuntu" and failing to select any version of Windows.

http://www.pioneercomputers.com.au/products/configure.asp?c1=3&c2=1...

Installing "crapware" is normally a way that OEMs use to offset the cost of Microsoft software they install on machines. If the OEM does not have to pay for Microsoft software, there is no need to offset such costs, and they can deliver a desktop/laptop machine with no crapware and the consumer can still save $AUD109 for the desktop & OS software alone compared with the exact same machine pre-installed with Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium or Microsoft Windows 8. An additional $AUD235 can be saved by not using Microsoft Office 2010 Home and Business Edition as the office suite. This is a significant saving, considering that the hardware itself is $AUD599.

... and it will have BETTER desktop software, and be far easier to maintain and keep running well, as a bonus.

The only real problem is that consumers are forced to shop online & really hunt around to find a great desktop Linux deal such as this, it is not commonly available in bricks & mortar stores.

Here is a glimpse of the desktop & OS software I am running right now, as I type this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ-JOo-tF_Y

"It is a delight to use KDE right now".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNQWVJPLjig

"Kubuntu 12.10 - Fun and Flashy Linux" - "I really like what I see".

Edited 2013-01-23 01:03 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[6]: Marketshare
by WorknMan on Wed 23rd Jan 2013 03:17 in reply to "RE[5]: Marketshare"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

here are indeed a wider variety of desktop applications on other platforms, but they are not any better.


Of course they are. If you go and look at websites sporting Linux alternatives for commercial software, they are mostly inferior knock-offs of their commercial counterparts. This, of course, isn't ALWAYS the case, but is so the majority of the time.

Installing "crapware" is normally a way that OEMs use to offset the cost of Microsoft software they install on machines


How do you explain then the crapware on Android devices (and seeming lack of it on Windows Phone)? I know a lot of people blame carriers for this, but even wifi-only tablets like the Asus Transformer models come with it as well.

In other words, crapware is not strictly the domain of Windows. It is also possible to get Windows machines without crapware if you shop around (Including Microsoft stores). It's not like crapware comes preinstalled on a vanilla Windows disc, Metro on Windows 8 not withstanding ;)

Edited 2013-01-23 03:24 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[7]: Marketshare
by lemur2 on Wed 23rd Jan 2013 05:19 in reply to "RE[6]: Marketshare"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"here are indeed a wider variety of desktop applications on other platforms, but they are not any better.


Of course they are. If you go and look at websites sporting Linux alternatives for commercial software, they are mostly inferior knock-offs of their commercial counterparts. This, of course, isn't ALWAYS the case, but is so the majority of the time.
"

How do you define "better". If we talk about functionality alone, I strongly dispute this claim. Take as an example desktop CAD software, an example which is often used in this context. For Linux, the most functional available application here would be Bricscad.

http://www.bricsys.com/en_AU/bricscad/

This is not a knock-off, this is the same software (with a different OS interface layer) for Linux as the version which is sold for Windows.

If we are talking Photoshop, another example which is commonly used, the best option for Linux is to split the functionality between digikam (for working with digital photos) and Krita (for working with creating raster graphics).

http://www.digikam.org/about?q=about/features
http://krita.org/

This is by no means inferior software just on functionality. It certainly isn't a knock off, because it is two applications rather than one.

Another example of cited is Microsoft Visio and One Note. The best alternatives here, for the Linux desktop, would be Calligra Flow and Calligra Braindump:

http://www.calligra.org/flow/
http://www.calligra.org/braindump/

Once again, these are not knock-offs, they are merely applications which perform similar functions. The Linux desktop applications here are not as functional as the ones from MS Office, but for the average consumer of desktop software they are more than adequate. As a bonus, the Linux desktop applications output files in the OpenDocument drawing format (.odg), so the files can be used directly in many other desktop applications. This is not something one can normally say for Microsoft desktop software, as a general rule Microsoft software saves data in the most obscure formats possible.

Now seriously, as a consumer, you must consider value-for-money as at least part of the criteria for determining which software is actually better.

When you factor in even a small consideration of value-for-money, for a normal average consumer the Linux desktop software wins hands down.

"Installing "crapware" is normally a way that OEMs use to offset the cost of Microsoft software they install on machines


How do you explain then the crapware on Android devices (and seeming lack of it on Windows Phone)? I know a lot of people blame carriers for this, but even wifi-only tablets like the Asus Transformer models come with it as well.
"

Out of up to fifty devices/machines I have bought over time, I have never purchased any computing device, other than a couple of Windows machines, which have come with crapware installed. This includes a number of Android phones.

In other words, crapware is not strictly the domain of Windows. It is also possible to get Windows machines without crapware if you shop around (Including Microsoft stores). It's not like crapware comes preinstalled on a vanilla Windows disc, Metro on Windows 8 not withstanding ;)


It is, OTOH, far more common to get a crapware-free offering if one avoids Windows. In my own experience, it is infinitely more common.

Edited 2013-01-23 05:28 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: Marketshare
by unclefester on Wed 23rd Jan 2013 08:02 in reply to "RE[5]: Marketshare"
unclefester Member since:
2007-01-13

I had a look. The Pioneer laptop seems to be extremely poor value at the current price of AUD600 (including GST).

You can readily buy a high quality (Acer, Asus, Toshiba, HP etc) Windows 7/8 model with much better hardware for equal or less money from a number of Australian retailers eg Officeworks, JB HiFi or Dick Smith.

My Acer V3-571G absolutely shits on the Pioneer hardware wise. It was cheaper and came with Windows 7 and Office preinstalled. It also has excellent Linux support.

ps I use Linux and Windows.

Edited 2013-01-23 08:11 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[7]: Marketshare
by lemur2 on Wed 23rd Jan 2013 08:25 in reply to "RE[6]: Marketshare"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I had a look. The Pioneer laptop seems to be extremely poor value at the current price of AUD600 (including GST).

You can readily buy a high quality (Acer, Asus, Toshiba, HP etc) Windows 7/8 model with much better hardware for equal or less money from a number of Australian retailers eg Officeworks, JB HiFi or Dick Smith.

My Acer V3-571G absolutely shits on the Pioneer hardware wise. It was cheaper and came with Windows 7 and Office preinstalled. It also has excellent Linux support.

ps I use Linux and Windows.


I am not touting the Pioneer laptop per se ... I am using this site to demonstrate the cost of Windows. A lot of people seem to think that because it comes pre-installed that Windows is free. It simply isn't.

If one could avoid the Windows tax that retailers such as Officeworks, JB HiFi or Dick Smith force upon you and buy from them the Acer V3-571G laptop with a blank hard disk (and say a free Linux LiveDVD), I am sure that it would be a wonderful value-for-money purchase. Since you can't buy it like that, it simply isn't.

Edited 2013-01-23 08:40 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: Marketshare
by Lennie on Wed 23rd Jan 2013 12:03 in reply to "RE[6]: Marketshare"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

I actually have installed Ubuntu on my ARM Chromebook it costs US $249, it does everything most people need from a small laptop.

The video driver for 3D acceleration, Flash and suspend isn't there yet but I'm sure it will. And the installation procedure and information how to do it is still a bit scattered around the web.

But these are the only problems.

The Acer C7 Chromebook which has a Sandy Bridge Celeron chip is only $199. Maybe the batterylife is a bit short though, only 4 hours.

The performance is even slightly better as the ARM Chromebook I'm using. A Linux distribution should be fine on these devices. And I think hardware support for the Intel-based Chromebook will probably be better than the ARM-based one.

Here is a review:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6476/acer-c7-chromebook-review/5

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: Marketshare
by BallmerKnowsBest on Wed 23rd Jan 2013 17:48 in reply to "RE[5]: Marketshare"
BallmerKnowsBest Member since:
2008-06-02

There are indeed a wider variety of desktop applications on other platforms, but they are not any better.


Right, we'll just take your word for it. Because it's certainly not as if Linux advocates have a illustrious history of dishonest exaggerations, or doing absurd things like claiming that GIMP is on par with Photoshop...

Actually, as it happens, I am typing this message on a consumer laptop machine that came pre-installed with Ubuntu and no crapware. I purchased it via a customisation page similar to the one linked below, by selecting "Ubuntu" and failing to select any version of Windows.


Too bad that small online-only OEMs like that typically don't include crapware on their Windows PCs, either. So if we apply your reasoning, then in looks like Linux is irrelevant to whether or not a PC has crapware - it's the size of the OEM that matters. Or at least that's the way it looks when you don't conveniently leave out relevant details.

Installing "crapware" is normally a way that OEMs use to offset the cost of Microsoft software they install on machines. If the OEM does not have to pay for Microsoft software, there is no need to offset such costs, and they can deliver a desktop/laptop machine with no crapware and the consumer can still save $AUD109 for the desktop & OS software alone compared with the exact same machine pre-installed with Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium or Microsoft Windows 8. An additional $AUD235 can be saved by not using Microsoft Office 2010 Home and Business Edition as the office suite. This is a significant saving, considering that the hardware itself is $AUD599.


You'd have to be hopelessly naiive to actually believe that. Take any big OEM that currently bundles crapware with their Windows PCs - there's no way in hell they would stop bundling crapware if they switched to selling Linux PCs. Instead, they would look at like this: "Hey, if we bundle crapware with Linux PCs, then we'll make even MORE money from it."

But I guess it's easier to believe some simplistic myth where OEMs would stop bundling crapware AND pass the savings on to customers, if it weren't for big mean Microsoft.

"It is a delight to use KDE right now".


"Kubuntu 12.10 - Fun and Flashy Linux" - "I really like what I see".


What, you couldn't find any more generic-sounding hyperbole? You left out "tour de force" and "rollercoaster thrill ride of excitement." And I assume, of course, that it has an ending that will leave me breathless.

Edited 2013-01-23 17:54 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[7]: Marketshare
by WereCatf on Wed 23rd Jan 2013 18:59 in reply to "RE[6]: Marketshare"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

Right, we'll just take your word for it. Because it's certainly not as if Linux advocates have a illustrious history of dishonest exaggerations, or doing absurd things like claiming that GIMP is on par with Photoshop...


At least lemur2 fits perfectly the description of an irate Linux-fanboy with blinders on both sides. Have you noticed how he constantly tries to portray non-Linux OSes -- especially Windows -- in a negative light by comparing the price of Linux+F/OSS-software to e.g. Windows+MS Office+expensive DVD-players+expensive AV+whatnot, always carefully presenting things as if most of the same F/OSS-software wasn't available for Windows at all. When he claims some software isn't available for Windows at all and he's proven wrong he conveniently "forgets" that the whole discussion ever took place or claims that software only works properly when run under Linux, he completely ignores any and all use-cases where F/OSS-software just simply isn't up-to-notch or where there doesn't exist an alternative at all, goes on to explain how re-installing the whole OS is somehow a proof of superiority when it doesn't break and so on?

Rabid fanboy-ranting does more harm than good and he completely refuses to see that. Hell, I use Linux on my server, in a VM on my desktop, on my Pandaboard and on my Nokia N900 and yet lemur2's incoherent ramblings and exceedingly annoying holier-than-thou - attitude makes me want to stop using Linux just to spite his face. An Average Joe would definitely be put off by him and most likely would avoid Linux altogether if he thought all Linux-users are like that.

As for the article in question here: yes, the Linux - kernel is in use all kinds of devices, ranging from wrist-worn clocks to room-filling supercomputers, but... well, it's just a kernel. By itself the kernel isn't really terribly useful, it needs userland to actually become something, and Android is seemingly the dominating userland - package in use nowadays. The problem with that is that neither the kernel used by Google or the Android userland are actually F/OSS, so the comparisons to Linux - distros and the likes is totally bogus and misleading. The adoption of the Linux-kernel for use by Android-powered devices hasn't really boosted the relevancy of Linux-distro, for example, or the development-efforts of even the most popular F/OSS - applications.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[7]: Marketshare
by lemur2 on Wed 23rd Jan 2013 23:58 in reply to "RE[6]: Marketshare"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Right, we'll just take your word for it. Because it's certainly not as if Linux advocates have a illustrious history of dishonest exaggerations, or doing absurd things like claiming that GIMP is on par with Photoshop.


Personally, I wouldn't advocate GIMP, I would use digikam for digital photos, and krita for creation of raster graphics such as comics.

For a tablet, I would advocate krita sketch, which is available for Windows too.

http://krita.org/item/124-krita-on-the-go-krita-sketch

Now as for your claims of dishonesty ... what exactly can I do with Adobe CS6 Photoshop for Windows, costing $AUD965, that I cannot do with some combination of FOSS software costing nothing?

As an ordinary non-professional consumer and a private individual with a limited budget, please recognise that value-for-money is indeed a part of my decision-making process here, and I would include value-for-money as a part of my assessment of being "on par".

Edited 2013-01-23 23:59 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[7]: Marketshare
by zima on Sun 27th Jan 2013 16:13 in reply to "RE[6]: Marketshare"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Take any big OEM that currently bundles crapware with their Windows PCs - there's no way in hell they would stop bundling crapware if they switched to selling Linux PCs

Additionally... Android phones often already include what is essentially crapware! (UI "enhancements" would be counted as crapware on Windows PCs...)

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: Marketshare
by zima on Tue 29th Jan 2013 23:07 in reply to "RE[5]: Marketshare"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

a consumer laptop machine that came pre-installed with Ubuntu and no crapware [...] Installing "crapware" is normally a way that OEMs use to offset the cost of Microsoft software they install on machines. If the OEM does not have to pay for Microsoft software, there is no need to offset such costs [...] The only real problem is that consumers are forced to shop online & really hunt around

There is a category of Linux computers which are very popular with consumers, chiefly responsible for large Linux sales share: Android smartphones. Certainly no hunting around is necessary.

And guess what... they typically include crapware (UI "enhancements" alone would be counted as crapware on Windows PCs...). In the appstore, also a lot of essentially malware/spyware.

PS. Generally, understand what your posts accomplish; nobody better than you, lemur2, unites Windows and Linux users that frequent here - even Nelson gets upvoted ( http://www.osnews.com/thread?549981 ). As for me & KDE... http://www.osnews.com/thread?550536

Edited 2013-01-29 23:10 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2