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Of course they are. If you go and look at websites sporting Linux alternatives for commercial software, they are mostly inferior knock-offs of their commercial counterparts. This, of course, isn't ALWAYS the case, but is so the majority of the time.



How do you explain then the crapware on Android devices (and seeming lack of it on Windows Phone)? I know a lot of people blame carriers for this, but even wifi-only tablets like the Asus Transformer models come with it as well.

In other words, crapware is not strictly the domain of Windows. It is also possible to get Windows machines without crapware if you shop around (Including Microsoft stores). It's not like crapware comes preinstalled on a vanilla Windows disc, Metro on Windows 8 not withstanding

Edited 2013-01-23 03:24 UTC

Of course they are. If you go and look at websites sporting Linux alternatives for commercial software, they are mostly inferior knock-offs of their commercial counterparts. This, of course, isn't ALWAYS the case, but is so the majority of the time. "

How do you define "better". If we talk about functionality alone, I strongly dispute this claim. Take as an example desktop CAD software, an example which is often used in this context. For Linux, the most functional available application here would be Bricscad.

http://www.bricsys.com/en_AU/bricscad/

This is not a knock-off, this is the same software (with a different OS interface layer) for Linux as the version which is sold for Windows.

If we are talking Photoshop, another example which is commonly used, the best option for Linux is to split the functionality between digikam (for working with digital photos) and Krita (for working with creating raster graphics).

http://www.digikam.org/about?q=about/features
http://krita.org/

This is by no means inferior software just on functionality. It certainly isn't a knock off, because it is two applications rather than one.

Another example of cited is Microsoft Visio and One Note. The best alternatives here, for the Linux desktop, would be Calligra Flow and Calligra Braindump:

http://www.calligra.org/flow/
http://www.calligra.org/braindump/

Once again, these are not knock-offs, they are merely applications which perform similar functions. The Linux desktop applications here are not as functional as the ones from MS Office, but for the average consumer of desktop software they are more than adequate. As a bonus, the Linux desktop applications output files in the OpenDocument drawing format (.odg), so the files can be used directly in many other desktop applications. This is not something one can normally say for Microsoft desktop software, as a general rule Microsoft software saves data in the most obscure formats possible.

Now seriously, as a consumer, you must consider value-for-money as at least part of the criteria for determining which software is actually better.

When you factor in even a small consideration of value-for-money, for a normal average consumer the Linux desktop software wins hands down.



How do you explain then the crapware on Android devices (and seeming lack of it on Windows Phone)? I know a lot of people blame carriers for this, but even wifi-only tablets like the Asus Transformer models come with it as well. "

Out of up to fifty devices/machines I have bought over time, I have never purchased any computing device, other than a couple of Windows machines, which have come with crapware installed. This includes a number of Android phones.



It is, OTOH, far more common to get a crapware-free offering if one avoids Windows. In my own experience, it is infinitely more common.

Edited 2013-01-23 05:28 UTC

I had a look. The Pioneer laptop seems to be extremely poor value at the current price of AUD600 (including GST).

You can readily buy a high quality (Acer, Asus, Toshiba, HP etc) Windows 7/8 model with much better hardware for equal or less money from a number of Australian retailers eg Officeworks, JB HiFi or Dick Smith.

My Acer V3-571G absolutely shits on the Pioneer hardware wise. It was cheaper and came with Windows 7 and Office preinstalled. It also has excellent Linux support.

ps I use Linux and Windows.

Edited 2013-01-23 08:11 UTC

I am not touting the Pioneer laptop per se ... I am using this site to demonstrate the cost of Windows. A lot of people seem to think that because it comes pre-installed that Windows is free. It simply isn't.

If one could avoid the Windows tax that retailers such as Officeworks, JB HiFi or Dick Smith force upon you and buy from them the Acer V3-571G laptop with a blank hard disk (and say a free Linux LiveDVD), I am sure that it would be a wonderful value-for-money purchase. Since you can't buy it like that, it simply isn't.

Edited 2013-01-23 08:40 UTC

I actually have installed Ubuntu on my ARM Chromebook it costs US $249, it does everything most people need from a small laptop.

The video driver for 3D acceleration, Flash and suspend isn't there yet but I'm sure it will. And the installation procedure and information how to do it is still a bit scattered around the web.

But these are the only problems.

The Acer C7 Chromebook which has a Sandy Bridge Celeron chip is only $199. Maybe the batterylife is a bit short though, only 4 hours.

The performance is even slightly better as the ARM Chromebook I'm using. A Linux distribution should be fine on these devices. And I think hardware support for the Intel-based Chromebook will probably be better than the ARM-based one.

Here is a review:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6476/acer-c7-chromebook-review/5

Right, we'll just take your word for it. Because it's certainly not as if Linux advocates have a illustrious history of dishonest exaggerations, or doing absurd things like claiming that GIMP is on par with Photoshop...



Too bad that small online-only OEMs like that typically don't include crapware on their Windows PCs, either. So if we apply your reasoning, then in looks like Linux is irrelevant to whether or not a PC has crapware - it's the size of the OEM that matters. Or at least that's the way it looks when you don't conveniently leave out relevant details.



You'd have to be hopelessly naiive to actually believe that. Take any big OEM that currently bundles crapware with their Windows PCs - there's no way in hell they would stop bundling crapware if they switched to selling Linux PCs. Instead, they would look at like this: "Hey, if we bundle crapware with Linux PCs, then we'll make even MORE money from it."

But I guess it's easier to believe some simplistic myth where OEMs would stop bundling crapware AND pass the savings on to customers, if it weren't for big mean Microsoft.





What, you couldn't find any more generic-sounding hyperbole? You left out "tour de force" and "rollercoaster thrill ride of excitement." And I assume, of course, that it has an ending that will leave me breathless.

Edited 2013-01-23 17:54 UTC

At least lemur2 fits perfectly the description of an irate Linux-fanboy with blinders on both sides. Have you noticed how he constantly tries to portray non-Linux OSes -- especially Windows -- in a negative light by comparing the price of Linux+F/OSS-software to e.g. Windows+MS Office+expensive DVD-players+expensive AV+whatnot, always carefully presenting things as if most of the same F/OSS-software wasn't available for Windows at all. When he claims some software isn't available for Windows at all and he's proven wrong he conveniently "forgets" that the whole discussion ever took place or claims that software only works properly when run under Linux, he completely ignores any and all use-cases where F/OSS-software just simply isn't up-to-notch or where there doesn't exist an alternative at all, goes on to explain how re-installing the whole OS is somehow a proof of superiority when it doesn't break and so on?

Rabid fanboy-ranting does more harm than good and he completely refuses to see that. Hell, I use Linux on my server, in a VM on my desktop, on my Pandaboard and on my Nokia N900 and yet lemur2's incoherent ramblings and exceedingly annoying holier-than-thou - attitude makes me want to stop using Linux just to spite his face. An Average Joe would definitely be put off by him and most likely would avoid Linux altogether if he thought all Linux-users are like that.

As for the article in question here: yes, the Linux - kernel is in use all kinds of devices, ranging from wrist-worn clocks to room-filling supercomputers, but... well, it's just a kernel. By itself the kernel isn't really terribly useful, it needs userland to actually become something, and Android is seemingly the dominating userland - package in use nowadays. The problem with that is that neither the kernel used by Google or the Android userland are actually F/OSS, so the comparisons to Linux - distros and the likes is totally bogus and misleading. The adoption of the Linux-kernel for use by Android-powered devices hasn't really boosted the relevancy of Linux-distro, for example, or the development-efforts of even the most popular F/OSS - applications.

Personally, I wouldn't advocate GIMP, I would use digikam for digital photos, and krita for creation of raster graphics such as comics.

For a tablet, I would advocate krita sketch, which is available for Windows too.

http://krita.org/item/124-krita-on-the-go-krita-sketch

Now as for your claims of dishonesty ... what exactly can I do with Adobe CS6 Photoshop for Windows, costing $AUD965, that I cannot do with some combination of FOSS software costing nothing?

As an ordinary non-professional consumer and a private individual with a limited budget, please recognise that value-for-money is indeed a part of my decision-making process here, and I would include value-for-money as a part of my assessment of being "on par".

Edited 2013-01-23 23:59 UTC

Additionally... Android phones often already include what is essentially crapware! (UI "enhancements" would be counted as crapware on Windows PCs...)

There is a category of Linux computers which are very popular with consumers, chiefly responsible for large Linux sales share: Android smartphones. Certainly no hunting around is necessary.

And guess what... they typically include crapware (UI "enhancements" alone would be counted as crapware on Windows PCs...). In the appstore, also a lot of essentially malware/spyware.

PS. Generally, understand what your posts accomplish; nobody better than you, lemur2, unites Windows and Linux users that frequent here - even Nelson gets upvoted ( http://www.osnews.com/thread?549981 ). As for me & KDE... http://www.osnews.com/thread?550536

Edited 2013-01-29 23:10 UTC