Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 22nd Mar 2013 16:31 UTC
Windows Paul Thurrot: "Tipped off by a reader, I checked my System log in Event Viewer today and what did I find but a stack of pending updates for all of the core apps in Windows 8. I'm not 100 percent sure this is what I think it is. But if we're right, it looks like 18 of the core apps in Windows 8 are about to get updated. Or, almost all of them." Foley confirms it. By far Windows 8's weakest link, so I'm hoping this is true. Especially the Mail application is dreadful.
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RE[5]: Comment
by moondevil on Mon 25th Mar 2013 07:30 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment"
Member since:

I think .NET vs WinRT is a bit a consequence of Vista's failure.

When .NET came out, the idea was to migrate everything to .NET, and C++ got a second class status.

There were two attempts to bring C++ developers to .NET world, first with Managed C++ and with .NET 2.0 C++/CLI.

Additionally, not all wannabe .NET developers, even today, are aware that you can compile to native code on installation time via NGEN.

Vista suffered a bit from the typical over engineering that is part of so many enterprise projects, which lead partly to its failure.

This allowed the Windows division, which isn't a big .NET fan, to make the Tools division go full circle back to native code.

This is why we have the C++ Renaissance, most of the new Windows APIs since Vista are COM based and not Win32, and finally WinRT offers a .NET like experience for native languages.

Even C++/CX is a set of C++ extensions, which although similar to C++/CLI, are used in native code.

While I don't like them, they are no different than C++ Builder's language extensions, or the ones almost every C or C++ compiler offers.

For those that are not aware, .NET applications are actually compiled to native code in Windows Phone 8, and according to some job offers on Microsoft, they might eventually integrate Visual C++ backend with native code backend for .NET.

Personally, I think the best way would be just to have a direct to native code compiler for .NET, or improve NGEN optimizations. But the political wars between Microsoft divisions have most likely lead to WinRT, which was in part the initial design for .NET, before they adopted the bytecode model.

This is nothing new, I have a few scars from political wars between software teams in Fortune 500 companies.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment
by Nelson on Mon 25th Mar 2013 09:44 in reply to "RE[5]: Comment"
Nelson Member since:

Yeah, it's crazy. WP8 cloud compiling seems to be a step above even what NGEN does, by introducing an additional type of IL that is closer to the metal and avoids the issues that install time NGEN has on Windows 8: Its not immediate.

Windows Store apps typically perform better (from a launch POV) after you've used them for a little while, this is because the NGEN service needs to get around to compiling your app and avoiding JIT.

That said, we live in dark days. Mirosoft's JIT suffers from an almost criminal lack of investment. There's been no real advancement in years prior to this.

Things could be so much closer to native code, but here we are, paying the price for a JIT that doesn't even output SIMD instructions yet (Except for hacked on Windows Phone XNA code)

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment
by moondevil on Mon 25th Mar 2013 11:00 in reply to "RE[6]: Comment"
moondevil Member since:

I think they suffer from lack of competition.

There are some posts in MSDN forums which state Microsoft was only having one guy for Visual C++ bug fixes in the days the company was 100% on .NET (around early Vista days).

The .NET 4.5 is the first version where the JIT rewrites code, something that Java JITs are doing for ages.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment
by ze_jerkface on Tue 26th Mar 2013 02:46 in reply to "RE[5]: Comment"
ze_jerkface Member since:

This is why we have the C++ Renaissance

There is no C++ renaissance. Sinofsky was another irrational managed code hater that couldn't answer most of our technical questions. Yes he got WinRT through but it will be almost entirely ignored just like WPF.

A team of .NET or Java developers can outproduce a team of C++ developers and that won't change with WinRT. C++ is used heavily for games but the enterprise world has zero interest in bringing it back for internal applications.

If anything there is a Java renaissance thanks to Android. The future of internal applications is the web and that has only been strengthened with Microsoft's incredibly stupid move of creating yet another API. The corporate world is getting sick of Microsoft trying to sell a new API every few years, especially when they have a hard time explaining productivity benefits and hope we all just fall for new 'n shiny.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment
by moondevil on Tue 26th Mar 2013 07:01 in reply to "RE[6]: Comment"
moondevil Member since:

If all you do is write database boring CRUD applications, then yeah, there are better options then C++.

Reply Parent Score: 2