Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 25th Mar 2013 21:09 UTC
Legal Late last week, Nokia dropped what many consider to be a bomb on the WebM project: a list of patents that VP8 supposedly infringes in the form of an IETF IPR declaration. The list has made the rounds around the web, often reported as proof that VP8 infringes upon Nokia's patents. All this stuff rang a bell. Haven't we been here before? Yup, we have, with another open source codec called Opus. Qualcomm and Huawei made the same claims as Nokia did, but they turned out to be complete bogus. As it turns out, this is standard practice in the dirty business of the patent licensing industry.
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RE[10]: Big picture...
by galvanash on Tue 26th Mar 2013 22:59 UTC in reply to "RE[9]: Big picture..."
galvanash
Member since:
2006-01-25

I don't care about what everyone can use, because there is always someone that will only change from a rotary telephone because they have to.


That is a patently stupid analogy in this discussion. You are equating h.264 to technological progress, as if users who don't want to use it are trying to stay in the stone age. No one wants to use VP8 or Theora because they are ludites - they want to use them because they are licensed liberally - and h.264 is not.

You cannot support everyone well, you can only support the majority well.


Why the hell not? You saying that Microsoft and Apple are incapable of including a liberally licensed video codec? They are perfectly capable of doing so - they choose not to...

There is no charge for streaming. Only for people that make an encoder or an decoder.


There is no charge for streaming free content... If I want to sell my video (I don't, but if I did) why should I pay MPEGLA for the privilege of doing so? They had nothing to do with creating it, and I don't want them to have anything to do with me distributing it...

The streaming exemption also doesn't apply to downloadable videos (free or not)... So if you supply a download link you have to pay for that (at some point).. Also, and I cant stress this point enough, it isn't only about streaming. You have to pay for licensing to include h.264 encode/decode in software. You technically can't even use x264 freely (the most popular encoder on the planet) without purchasing a patent license from MPEGLA

Do you really understand how the licensing works?

http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/avc/Documents/AVC_TermsSummary....

ps. x264 does offer commercial licensing now. This is an excerpt from their terms of use:

4. You're responsible for patent licensing if you're based in a
nation where patents are an issue. This isn't our choice; the rules of MPEG-LA require that if Company A uses Company B's encoder in their product, Company A must pay the fees, not Company B. FYI, MPEG-LA's fees are zero for the first 100,000 units, 20 cents per unit until 5 million, and 10 cents beyond that, capping at around $5m per year.


Sure, the licensing only really costs money at high volumes... 100,000 units may seem like a whole lot of breathing room, until you create something popular and hit the limit. In my world 100,000 ain't all that much...

Wouldn't you rather have something that doesn't have such strings attached?

Edited 2013-03-26 23:11 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[11]: Big picture...
by lucas_maximus on Tue 26th Mar 2013 23:41 in reply to "RE[10]: Big picture..."
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

That is a patently stupid analogy in this discussion. You are equating h.264 to technological progress, as if users who don't want to use it are trying to stay in the stone age. No one wants to use VP8 or Theora because they are ludites - they want to use them because they are licensed liberally - and h.264 is not.


Way to misunderstand. The whole point of is that h264 is available to most people and those who don't want to out of bullshit reasons will only do so when they really need to.

Sorry those who are using HAIKU, ICAROS and OPENBSD aren't really going to worth supporting by most web developers.

Anyway VP8 is technically worse than h264 so why are you bringing up luddites.

Why the hell not? You saying that Microsoft and Apple are incapable of including a liberally licensed video codec? They are perfectly capable of doing so - they choose not to...


If I said I should support IE6 users as well I am sure your tone would change. This is what you are asking me to do outside of users of Windows, OSX, iOS and Android.

It is bullshit, and unrealistic. If WebM is dominate over flash/h264 then I would agree. It isn't.

I argue with what is the current reality not idealism.

content... If I want to sell my video (I don't, but if I did) why should I pay MPEGLA for the privilege of doing so? They had nothing to do with creating it, and I don't want them to have anything to do with me distributing it...


Quite easy don't use a codec that infringes on their patents. Oh there probably isn't any.

The streaming exemption also doesn't apply to downloadable videos (free or not)... So if you supply a download link you have to pay for that (at some point).. Also, and I cant stress this point enough, it isn't only about streaming. You have to pay for licensing to include h.264 encode/decode in software. You technically can't even use x264 freely (the most popular encoder on the planet) without purchasing a patent license from MPEGLA


Only after 100000 views and over 12 minutes long. Sorry if you are able to provide that sort of bandwidth your $2500 is not spent on the f--king MPEG-LA license.

FFS. This is ridiculous.

Do you really understand how the licensing works?

http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/avc/Documents/AVC_TermsSummary....

ps. x264 does offer commercial licensing now. This is an excerpt from their terms of use:


YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE TERMS OF USE IT SEEMS:

In the case of Internet Broadcast AVC Video (AVC Video that is delivered via the Worldwide Internet to
an End User for which the End User does not pay remuneration for the right to receive or view, i.e., neither Title-by-Title nor Subscription), there will be no royalty for the life of the License.


If a said website is getting more than half a million views it isn't going to be independent except for the in extraordinary circumstances and it is going to be hosted via youtube anyway.

We are getting into the realms of sillyness.

Wouldn't you rather have something that doesn't have such strings attached?


I don't care because it doesn't affect me or the work that I am doing. It doesn't affect most of the end-users I support. It called pragmatism ... look it the f--k up and tell me why then I am wrong for having this point of view.

I make my living out of delivering the right solution, not what OSNEWS commentators think I should.

Also why shouldn't the MPEG-LA be re-reimbursed for a codec that is used so much and works so well?

Anyway I made my points clear. I am out of this conversation.

Edited 2013-03-26 23:46 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[12]: Big picture...
by galvanash on Wed 27th Mar 2013 02:33 in reply to "RE[11]: Big picture..."
galvanash Member since:
2006-01-25

Way to misunderstand. The whole point of is that h264 is available to most people and those who don't want to out of bullshit reasons will only do so when they really need to.


Windows is available to most people and those who don't want to run it out of bullshit reasons will only do so when they really need to.

That sound fair to you? Same thing.

If I said I should support IE6 users as well I am sure your tone would change. This is what you are asking me to do outside of users of Windows, OSX, iOS and Android.


Again with the implication that VP8 is old and/or broken... Why are you equating supporting an 11 year old deprecated piece of software to supporting a well maintained and actively supported video codec? Its not at all the same thing and you know it.

Besides... Who is asking YOU to do anything at all? I don't care what video codec you use - use whatever you want. I just want(ed) the standard for internet video to be universally accessible, and that means NO ROYALTIES. Didn't get my way unfortunately, so we have the cluster f*ck that is the video tag now.

You don't have to like VP8 and you don't have to use VP8, all I want is for you to understand why some people (like me) want it (or something equally as liberal) to exist - it opens up all kinds of opportunities for innovation that are simply not possible when you have the MPEGLA tax collector looming on the other side of success...

It is bullshit, and unrealistic. If WebM is dominate over flash/h264 then I would agree. It isn't.


Why is it unrealistic to ask all browsers to incorporate a baseline codec? I totally don't get this argument. It is certainly not because of patent concerns, the only holdouts hold the patents everyone is concerned about. What is Microsoft and Apple going to do? Sue themselves?

Quite easy don't use a codec that infringes on their patents. Oh there probably isn't any.


If VP8 infringes on someone's patent and they are willing to go to court over it we will all see how that turns out. Right now it is a moot point. Id rather hold out hope that it will survive patent litigation than simply give up and use h.264.

Im sorry, but I refuse to use a product with a licensing regime modeled after street corner drug dealing...

Only after 100000 views and over 12 minutes long. Sorry if you are able to provide that sort of bandwidth your $2500 is not spent on the f--king MPEG-LA license.


Your understanding of the math for this is seriously f*cked up.

Streaming 2.5TB of data (25MB (roughly the size of a 12 min video) * 100,000) over a period of a month costs about $300 using amazon S3... That is $3,600 a year.

So month one is free for your MPEGLA license. In month 2 you would have to pay $2,000 US to MPEGLA (2 cents per stream). That ends up being $22,000 for the entire year.

bandwidth is BY FAR cheaper than MPEGLA licensing...

FFS. This is ridiculous.


Yes it is.

YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE TERMS OF USE IT SEEMS:


In the case of Internet Broadcast AVC Video (AVC Video that is delivered via the Worldwide Internet to an End User for which the End User does not pay remuneration for the right to receive or view, i.e., neither Title-by-Title nor Subscription), there will be no royalty for the life of the License.


Didn't I already concede streaming free videos is free? Why are you bringing it up again? I just don't understand why otherwise intelligent people are so willing to accept this street-corner-crack-1st-hit-is-free licensing model like it is the greatest thing ever...

If a said website is getting more than half a million views it isn't going to be independent except for the in extraordinary circumstances


You are seriously sheltered or something. 500,000 views is nothing...

I don't care because it doesn't affect me or the work that I am doing. It doesn't affect most of the end-users I support. It called pragmatism ... look it the f--k up and tell me why then I am wrong for having this point of view.


Im pragmatic too. I don't see how VP8's existence in any way affects you - so why do you care? It's non-existence on the other hand effects me greatly, so why are you so hell bent on arguing against its existence and industry support?

Also why shouldn't the MPEG-LA be re-reimbursed for a codec that is used so much and works so well?


I never said they shouldn't. I am not opposed to h.264, it is a great codec. Some people just want an option that doesn't cost money - the web NEEDS an option that doesn't cost money, and the only reason such an option doesn't exist universally is because of a protectionism racket which intentionally squashes any attempt to create an alternative...

Reply Parent Score: 2