Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 3rd Apr 2013 22:27 UTC
Google It's apparently browser engine day today. After Mozilla and Samsung announcing Servo, Google has just announced it's forking WebKit into Blink. Like WebKit, Blink will be open source, and it will also be used by other browser makers - most prominently, Opera has already announced it's not using WebKit, but Blink. Update: Courtesy of MacRumors, this graph illustrates how just how much Google contributed to WebKit. Much more than I thought. Also, Chrome developer Alex Russell: "To make a better platform faster, you must be able to iterate faster. Steps away from that are steps away from a better platform. Today's WebKit defeats that imperative in ways large and small. It's not anybody's fault, but it does need to change. And changing it will allow us to iterate faster, working through the annealing process that takes a good idea from drawing board to API to refined feature."
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RE[3]: Comment by vtolkov
by Valhalla on Thu 4th Apr 2013 16:42 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by vtolkov"
Valhalla
Member since:
2006-01-24

The innovation was exactly Microsoft's argument. It is a common argument, as if users want innovation from browsers.

Of course they want 'innovation' or rather new features, better performance, etc for their browsers. How do you think Mozilla managed to take a huge chunk of the browser market share from IE to begin with?

Microsoft paid no heed to standards and could get away with that because they had leveraged their desktop market dominance to being the 'de facto' standard browser, with appalling results. The situation we have today with several competing browsers is nothing like that.

Adding new browser features does not equal breaking standard compliance, tab process separation has no effect on web standards, faster javascript has no effect on web standards, neither does plugins architectures, mouse gestures, customization, automatic updates, private browsing etc. Yet these are 'innovations' which are popular with users.

And as for standards, delivering the best support for existing standards is also a feature with which to attract users, like HTML5, which will lead to better standard adherence all around when the browser engines have to compete.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by vtolkov
by Nelson on Thu 4th Apr 2013 16:58 in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by vtolkov"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Thats nice and pie in the sky and all, but its not what happens in practice.

The W3C throws a wrench in all of this with their lethargic standard setting process.

WebKit is a wild beast from version to verson, browser to browser. Its basically a "Browser stack" where vendors choose shelf made components, substitute others (v8 instead of JSC) and generally this leads to a bunch of incompatible implementations with varying degree of standard support.

We had one IE6. We have a ton of WebKit splinters running on various mobile devices, some having varying syntaxes for the same feature and others being so chocked up on vendor prefixes that its not really the web anymore.

This isn't WebKit's fault per say, and other browsers suffer from this to an extent -- its just the most prominent example.

What web standards needs is a more nimble process that doesn't take ten years per standard.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[5]: Comment by vtolkov
by Radio on Fri 5th Apr 2013 13:17 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by vtolkov"
Radio Member since:
2009-06-20

The W3C throws a wrench in all of this with their lethargic standard setting process.

The W3C is sabotaged by infighting between vendors. Fix the W3C, instead of sneaking in a "de facto" standard.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[4]: Comment by vtolkov
by lucas_maximus on Thu 4th Apr 2013 17:37 in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by vtolkov"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Of course they want 'innovation' or rather new features, better performance, etc for their browsers. How do you think Mozilla managed to take a huge chunk of the browser market share from IE to begin with?


Which Modern IE has taken back. Firefox was a good kick in the backside for Microsoft and with modern versions of IE are excellent. The jQuery Team recently said that it had less shims for Modern IE than Other browsers.

Microsoft paid no heed to standards and could get away with that because they had leveraged their desktop market dominance to being the 'de facto' standard browser, with appalling results. The situation we have today with several competing browsers is nothing like that.


Oh like any browser actually followed standards at the time. It was shit, especially if you were doing JavaScript development back in 2003/4 like I was doing.

IE6 was better than every other browser at the time and was free. There wasn't a reason to download something better. Firefox got market share because it was free and better than IE6.

So you can't say it is entirely because Microsoft leveraged their desktop dominance, because many of the first firefox users were Windows users.

Adding new browser features does not equal breaking standard compliance, tab process separation has no effect on web standards, faster javascript has no effect on web standards, neither does plugins architectures, mouse gestures, customization, automatic updates, private browsing etc. Yet these are 'innovations' which are popular with users.


Yes because it improves the browsing experience.

And as for standards, delivering the best support for existing standards is also a feature with which to attract users, like HTML5, which will lead to better standard adherence all around when the browser engines have to compete.


Most users do not care if there are better standard supports. The user-interface, add-ons and extensions is what made Firefox Popular.

Standards compliance is a great for developers but it does not drive acceptance.

Edited 2013-04-04 17:39 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[5]: Comment by vtolkov
by Valhalla on Thu 4th Apr 2013 18:42 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by vtolkov"
Valhalla Member since:
2006-01-24


Which Modern IE has taken back.

What exactly have they taken back? Hardly the market share they lost as Firefox still has a good chunk, and so does Chrome.

Most users do not care if there are better standard supports.

If the browser you are using fails/works poorly on an increasing amount of sites due to poor standard support then you will start looking at alternatives.

HTML5 could be such a standard where the one who delivers the best experience can stand to gain lots of users. That of course depends alot on the rate of HTML5 adoption.

Reply Parent Score: 2