Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 16th Apr 2013 16:37 UTC
Windows Microsoft's Terry Myerson, corporate vice president of Windows Phone, talks about the competition. "With iPhone, I sense that it's running out of steam. With iOS, [Apple] just added a fifth row of icons. Android is... kind of a mess. Look at Samsung - there's clearly mutiny going on. The only OEM making money off of Android is Samsung." There's truth to all these statements, which makes it all the more surprising that Microsoft appears to be unable to properly capitalise on them. Sure, WP appears to be doing well in a few select markets, but by no means the kind of success Microsoft and (Nokia) was banking on. Microsoft will pull through. Nokia on the other hand...
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RE[6]: Bleah
by Nelson on Wed 17th Apr 2013 04:31 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Bleah"
Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29


Name the final judgement or settlement terms for any Android OEM?


This is misleading. Microsoft makes bank off of almost every Android device manufactured by a major OEM and now recently even another ODM with Foxconn.

Nokia is looking to severely unload on Android with VP8 patents, the really hard to design around, non FRAND, very powerful types.

Its again, misleading to suggest that because the extremely lengthy legal process has not been completely exhausted, that the judgements up to this point in time are invalid on those merits alone.

Samsung has been found to infringe on Apple's patents. The case is on appeal, but they have been found to infringe. You don't call a convicted murderer innocent because he hasnt exhausted the decades of appeals he's entitled to.

Hint: The legal system is painfully slow.

What you should instead consider are the relatives strengths and weaknesses of the cases at hand. That to me is a much more accurate representation of Android's situation.

When looked at from this point of view, its easy to find various instances of dangerous situations for Android. Apple still has pending litigation in multiple countries that are all still very dangerous.

Oracle likely has a stronger case still than people consider. The Judge's ruling in its case really was odd and unprecedented if you look at past case law, and Android could still be found to be in the wrong there.

I mentioned Nokia with their VP8 patents, but there's also HTC who routinely gets smacked around for various patents by various individuals.

Microsoft has again signed up a large majority of these OEMs for a reason. The likes of Samsung doesn't go into a contract with Microsoft lightly, considering they didn't take a license for Apple on what are probably more favorable terms, the fact that they took one from Microsoft is telling.

There is an incredible amount of legal uncertainty surrounding Android, and trying to equate it with a platform like Windows Phone, where OEMs are idemnified is wrong.

Edited 2013-04-17 04:33 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: Bleah
by JAlexoid on Wed 17th Apr 2013 09:47 in reply to "RE[6]: Bleah"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Samsung has been found to infringe on Apple's patents. The case is on appeal, but they have been found to infringe. You don't call a convicted murderer innocent because he hasnt exhausted the decades of appeals he's entitled to.


A) There are two patents that vanilla Android was found to infringe
B) Android 4.0 does not include the bounceback patent infringing feature
C) Android 4.2 does not include the other one

IP infringement is not same a a murder. You can stop being an infringer, once you killed one person you are a murderer for life.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[8]: Bleah
by Nelson on Wed 17th Apr 2013 14:42 in reply to "RE[7]: Bleah"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


A) There are two patents that vanilla Android was found to infringe
B) Android 4.0 does not include the bounceback patent infringing feature
C) Android 4.2 does not include the other one


After a case was willfully wittled down for brevity, this only means the patent holder will be back later for more if he can get some.

You're not capped at two or anything, it could still increase. Plus most OEMs don't roll vanilla Android, and if the ability for them to differentiate is essentially neutered by patent litigation, then it would have an effect on Android.

Microsoft doesn't sign up something like 17 OEMs/ODMs, including Samsung which has billions of bank, on bluster alone.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: Bleah
by TemporalBeing on Wed 17th Apr 2013 14:33 in reply to "RE[6]: Bleah"
TemporalBeing Member since:
2007-08-22

"
Name the final judgement or settlement terms for any Android OEM?


This is misleading. Microsoft makes bank off of almost every Android device manufactured by a major OEM and now recently even another ODM with Foxconn.
"

While that has been stated, please quote how much each pays. Show the money trail.

The problem is, the numbers are not public. For all we know MS could be paying out more than they are receiving back. So please, stop quoting Microsoft's press information and quote real, hard numbers for individual OEMs.

Nokia is looking to severely unload on Android with VP8 patents, the really hard to design around, non FRAND, very powerful types.


Again, don't look at accusations. Look at the real numbers. VP8 has not yet been found to necessarily contain any patents, let alone any enforceable patents.

Its again, misleading to suggest that because the extremely lengthy legal process has not been completely exhausted, that the judgements up to this point in time are invalid on those merits alone.


Until you have a final judgement, then it is only speculation as to what will happen in the end.

Look at The SCO Group. They predicated a win all along, but not only did they lose (even after having the trial tilted in their favor), but they are out of business. Sure Microsoft, Apple, Nokia may remain in business, but litigations in court are hard to predict, especially as one party may decide to settle before too much gets out to the public.

That is why I asked for final judgements and settlement information. Nothing else can be relied on as it can all be appealed. Patents can be revoked or found to be non-infringed during the process; and products can be modified to remove infringement.

Samsung has been found to infringe on Apple's patents. The case is on appeal, but they have been found to infringe. You don't call a convicted murderer innocent because he hasnt exhausted the decades of appeals he's entitled to.


FYI - Samsung was found to infringe by a jury that didn't consider any evidence of prior art; even as the USPTO found among the same evidence prior art. So it's hard to say the jury got it right, especially as appeals proceed. Again, that's why I asked for final judgements and settlements, to try to keep it simple for the conversation.

Hint: The legal system is painfully slow.


Yes it is. And with respect to patents and copyrights you have to wait until it is done to determine the actual result.

What you should instead consider are the relatives strengths and weaknesses of the cases at hand. That to me is a much more accurate representation of Android's situation.


And you are qualified to make such determinations? That's why we have the courts, to settle things people can't agree on using defined processes and procedures. If it was simple enough that a layman could make a determination then we wouldn't need the courts.

When looked at from this point of view, its easy to find various instances of dangerous situations for Android. Apple still has pending litigation in multiple countries that are all still very dangerous.

Oracle likely has a stronger case still than people consider. The Judge's ruling in its case really was odd and unprecedented if you look at past case law, and Android could still be found to be in the wrong there.

I mentioned Nokia with their VP8 patents, but there's also HTC who routinely gets smacked around for various patents by various individuals.


Again, neither you nor I are qualified to make such determinations.

Microsoft has again signed up a large majority of these OEMs for a reason. The likes of Samsung doesn't go into a contract with Microsoft lightly, considering they didn't take a license for Apple on what are probably more favorable terms, the fact that they took one from Microsoft is telling.


There's multiple factors involved.

For instance, some decided it was easier and cheaper just to pay off a racketeer than to go to court to fight it out.

So unless you know the motives of the individual companies involved, you don't know why they did it. It may have had nothing to do with any actual patents, but merely the threat.

There is an incredible amount of legal uncertainty surrounding Android, and trying to equate it with a platform like Windows Phone, where OEMs are idemnified is wrong.


Stop spreading the FUD line. You are not getting yourself anywhere with it.

You certainly don't seem to understand how court proceedings work, or why one can only really count final judgements. And the OEMs for Android that have taken it to court seem to have generally done very well in tossing patents, etc.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[8]: Bleah
by Nelson on Wed 17th Apr 2013 14:46 in reply to "RE[7]: Bleah"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I just think we have a fundamental disagreement. You can tell a lot from how a case is proceeding and how a Judge is ruling. You can also infer a lot from established legal precedent and objective analysis.

There's a reason why essentially the only people who thought Samsung would prevail over Apple were people on Groklaw and OSNews. Everyone else understood that Samsung was in for a bruising.

Yes, these cases can be appealed, and the process is long, but would it yield a different result? What are the odds that the verdict will be overturned?

I don't really buy the notion that you can't put forth your own analysis, you can qualify it by saying you're not a professional, but I think not doing so is a bit of a cop out.

Reply Parent Score: 2