Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 22nd Apr 2013 12:10 UTC
Windows The Verge confirms an earlier story by Mary Jo Foley. "Microsoft is preparing to revive the traditional Start button it killed with Windows 8. Sources familiar with Microsoft's plans have revealed to The Verge that Windows 8.1 will include the return of the Start button. We understand that the button will act as a method to simply access the Start Screen, and will not include the traditional Start Menu. The button is said to look near-identical to the existing Windows flag used in the Charm bar."
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RE: Even if they do...
by Nelson on Mon 22nd Apr 2013 17:17 UTC in reply to "Even if they do..."
Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29

Their motivation for removing it in the first place was driven purely by customer feedback through CEIP. The Building 8 blog clearly outlined their rationale and backed it up with statistics they've gathered from customers using Windows.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Even if they do...
by UltraZelda64 on Mon 22nd Apr 2013 17:28 in reply to "RE: Even if they do..."
UltraZelda64 Member since:
2006-12-05

If that's the case, then their "statistics" must have been gathered purely in-house by people who are getting paid by Microsoft's marketing division...

Clearly, now that Windows 8 is out in the wild, the "true" statistics are out.

Say, was it customers who wanted Metro to be foisted upon everyone too? I doubt it. Microsoft had the option to make both of these an option--but instead they decided to try to enforce them, against their resisting customers' wishes. As if removing a core part of Windows since 1995 was such a brilliant, infallable idea that would never be challenged!

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[3]: Even if they do...
by Nelson on Mon 22nd Apr 2013 18:46 in reply to "RE[2]: Even if they do..."
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

If that's the case, then their "statistics" must have been gathered purely in-house by people who are getting paid by Microsoft's marketing division...


The CEIP is a feedback mechanism built into Windows. It is not an in house statistic or done by Microsoft's marketing division. I'm unsure where you got this from.

I find it curious that you choose not to even address the relevant stats, not to challenge them on any basis other than some unsupported astro turfing claim which is characteristic of your lack of objectivity to the subject matter.


Clearly, now that Windows 8 is out in the wild, the "true" statistics are out.


What do you mean? Windows 8 has sold tens of millions of copies, and will continue to do so. Are you suggesting that Windows 8 isn't selling? I wasn't aware that serious people were making this claim.

This is whats most annoying, that people like you feel that they're entitled to their own facts. Do you have any idea what the scale of the Windows install base is?

Any way you slice it, Windows 8 has sold millions and millions of copies. App developers can and are becoming rich on the Windows Store.


Say, was it customers who wanted Metro to be foisted upon everyone too? I doubt it. Microsoft had the option to make both of these an option--but instead they decided to try to enforce them, against their resisting customers' wishes.


Metro is an option. If you don't like it you can just open the Desktop tile and run your classic apps. I don't understand how this is not choice.

A lack of choice would be removing the Desktop from Windows 8 completely.

Then, when Microsoft does a little to appease the annoying "power" (term used loosely here) users, people like you still manage to find a way to complain. Microsoft is damned if they do, damned if they don't.

The meme that Windows 8 isnt selling, or even more hilarious, that Windows 8 isnt selling because you cant access the start menu is so rooted in fantasy that it s almost astonishing.

There are no data points to back up this FUD. None. What so ever. People are not ditching Windows, the PC is decline for a variety of reasons that are a hell of a lot more complex than any theory you put forth.


As if removing a core part of Windows since 1995 was such a brilliant, infallable idea that would never be challenged!


What exactly has been removed from Windows? The start menu that everyone HATED when Vista/7 came out? You people are unreal.

The same people who now miss the start menu dearly and hold it up as an example of why Windows 8 is a failure are the same people who called it a piece of shit in prior releases.

This isn't about a genuine concern over a lack of a start menu, this is a missing feature than you can use as a stick to hit Microsoft with. Its so disingenuous.

Edited 2013-04-22 18:59 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[2]: Even if they do...
by Alfman on Mon 22nd Apr 2013 19:32 in reply to "RE: Even if they do..."
Alfman Member since:
2011-01-28

Nelson,

"Their motivation for removing it in the first place was driven purely by customer feedback through CEIP. The Building 8 blog clearly outlined their rationale and backed it up with statistics they've gathered from customers using Windows."

So they say, I sure didn't buy that excuse the first time round...if anything customers were screaming for the choice to set it back ever since the previews came out. The thing that's especially annoying though is that MS could fix all of these issues without causing any fuss for those who actually like the default windows desktop/metro integration as is. Windows 8 would be a better OS for it.

MS are shooting themselves in the foot with customers who don't like metro, but it's clearly a deliberate part of a longer term strategy to phase customers off the desktop and into their metro app store. I wonder how many lost sales they consider acceptable in pursuit of this strategy. If they could maintain their monopoly and convert a majority of consumers to metro apps over time, it would put them in a position to levy fees on billions of dollars from 3rd party software sales.

Edited 2013-04-22 19:42 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: Even if they do...
by Nelson on Mon 22nd Apr 2013 19:41 in reply to "RE[2]: Even if they do..."
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

No. It isn't so they say. That's exactly how it is, backed up by figures, charts, and thousand word posts.

You can argue WHY the customers provided feed back and argue that Microsoft's usage interpretation was wrong,but trying to say that the usage isn't legitimate feed back is wrong.

What's even more dubious is the claim that Microsoft is losing a statistically relevant amount of sales over a missing Start Menu. I really don't think Windows 7 would've lifted the PC market more than Windows 8 did, and in fact, without the Surface RT and Surface Pro running Windows 8, Microsoft's revenue would've seen a shortfall the size of the PC market's shortfall.

It didn't because they made up for OEM sales with pure hardware sales of a touch based tablet. In other words, Windows 8 helped save Microsoft from what would've been a disastrous quarter for them.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2013/04/20/microsoft-surface...

The Surface has made Microsoft $200 million dollars alone. The Pro alone contributed 4% of their revenue.

These arent $199 Nexus devices with razor thin margins, they're $1000 ultrabooks with touch screens. That Microsoft sells directly.

Now this might seem like a bit of an aside, but my point in all this is that Microsoft is starting to transition and cater to a new type of user with Windows 8.

Maybe traditional Desktop users wont' like it as much, but there's evidence that its an increasingly shrinking segment -- with ultra portables like the Surface set to see an explosion of growth in that sector.

If Microsoft can do something to grow Surface sales in a semi significant manner, they could start to seriously transition themselves into a Devices and Services company.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Even if they do...
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Mon 22nd Apr 2013 22:24 in reply to "RE: Even if they do..."
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

I think their methodology was deeply flawed. They made that decision based on how people used windows when the start button was there . They didn't go back and see what happened when they removed it. Somethings we have just for decoration, even if they at one point had a real function.

Reply Parent Score: 3