Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 7th Jun 2013 11:40 UTC
Legal This story is getting bigger and bigger. Even though most Americans probably already knew, it is now official: the United States government, through its National Security Agency, is collecting the communications and data of all American citizens, and of non-Americans using American services, through a wide collaboration with the large companies in technology, like Apple, Google, Microsoft, Facebook, and so on. Interestingly enough, the NSA itself, as well as the US government, have repeatedly and firmly denied this massive spying on Americans and non-Americans took place at all.
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tylerdurden
Member since:
2009-03-17


It's it estimated that the Soviet Union killed somewhere between 50 and 70 million of it's own citizens in the 20th century


The USSR population at that time was estimated at a bit over 110 million (tops). So are you claiming with a straight face that the Soviet regime killed over 50% of its own people?

I'm not making the case that the purges and other murderous sprees of the Soviet regime were not insignificant, far from that. The communist regime visited plenty of misery on its own people. But you also seem to have your own agenda.

Also, if we're going to bring genocide of people into this talk. Then percentage wise, the native Americans in what now is the USA sustained far worse culling. E.g. how many "redskins" can you see on the streets of any average American town nowadays. Modern day Americans should not be so quick to get on their soapboxes when it comes to indict other murderous regimes. We have a very very very checkered history ourselves.

Edited 2013-06-07 17:56 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 8

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

The 20th century if I remember correctly was a 100 years long.

Reply Parent Score: 3

tylerdurden Member since:
2009-03-17

You know how long a century is, congratulations?

Reply Parent Score: 5

bnolsen Member since:
2006-01-06

ukraine had to 6-7 million murdered. That's only a small portion of what the USSR.

Reply Parent Score: 2

Tony Swash Member since:
2009-08-22

"
It's it estimated that the Soviet Union killed somewhere between 50 and 70 million of it's own citizens in the 20th century


The USSR population at that time was estimated at a bit over 110 million (tops). So are you claiming with a straight face that the Soviet regime killed over 50% of its own people?
"


You are right, I made a mistake. The 100 million figure is the total of all those killed by all communist governments in the 20th century and includes the 40 million killed by the Chinese 'Great Leap Forward' which itself was the single biggest episode of state killing in human history.

The figure for state killings in the Soviet Union is between 40 and 50 million.

Stalin once said: 'Kill one man and it's murder. Kill a million and it's a statistic"

The point I was making still stands, which is that to try to compare the misdeeds of the US or any other liberal democracy to the misdeeds of the USSR is completely wrong and a terrible twisting of historical fact and ethical judgment.

Reply Parent Score: 1

BallmerKnowsBest Member since:
2008-06-02

"
It's it estimated that the Soviet Union killed somewhere between 50 and 70 million of it's own citizens in the 20th century


The USSR population at that time was estimated at a bit over 110 million (tops). So are you claiming with a straight face that the Soviet regime killed over 50% of its own people?
"

I can't believe I'm actually defending Tony Swash, but... you DO realize that he isn't claiming it happened all at once, right?

Also, if we're going to bring genocide of people into this talk. Then percentage wise, the native Americans in what now is the USA sustained far worse culling. E.g. how many "redskins" can you see on the streets of any average American town nowadays.


...derp? How many Huguenots can you see on the streets of any average French town nowadays? How many Aztecs can you see on the streets of any average Mexican city nowadays? How many Iroquois can you see in downtown Toronto nowadays? And WTF does that have to do with anything?

Modern day Americans should not be so quick to get on their soapboxes when it comes to indict other murderous regimes. We have a very very very checkered history ourselves.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

False equivalence is a logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none.
[...]
A common way for this fallacy to be perpetuated is one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude...

Reply Parent Score: 0

zima Member since:
2005-07-06

How many Aztecs can you see on the streets of any average Mexican city nowadays?

Actually quite a lot. Latin American people are to a very large degree descended from native populations - that's the "latino" look, you won't really find people like that on the Iberian peninsula.

Reply Parent Score: 2