Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sun 28th Jul 2013 14:06 UTC
General Development "There is a reason I use 'old' languages like J or Lush. It's not a retro affectation; I save that for my suits. These languages are designed better than modern ones. There is some survivor bias here; nobody slings PL/1 or Cobol willingly, but modern language and package designers don't seem to learn much from the masters. Modern code monkeys don't even recognize mastery; mastery is measured in dollars or number of users, which is a poor substitute for distinguishing between what is good and what is dumb. Lady Gaga made more money than Beethoven, but, like, so what?" This isn't just a thing among programmers. The entire industry is obsessed with user numbers, number of applications, and other crap that is meaningless when you consider programming to be art. When I post a new item about some small hobby operating system, the comments will be filled with negativity because it's no Windows or iOS, whereas only ten years ago, we'd have lively discussions about the implementation details. And then people wonder why that scene has died out.
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Forgotten past
by Treza on Sun 28th Jul 2013 14:38 UTC
Member since:

Every young programmer must try oldies like Lisp and Smalltalk. This is an eye opening experience.
This is also, in a way, very saddening as it shows how much nothing has really evolved, or evolved in a bad way.

A recent Smalltalk implementation, SQUEAK was for me quite a revelation a few years ago.
When Apple 'borrowed' the GUI at Xerox, they tucked it into static languages (C, Pascal), to cope with slow hardware. They also ingrained the idea that applications are monolithic pieces of code.

The web languages, Python or Objective-C don't have the brilliant coherence of Smalltalk and Lisp Machines.

Reply Score: 3

Obligatory: May the FORTH go with you
by shotsman on Sun 28th Jul 2013 18:07 in reply to "Forgotten past"
shotsman Member since:

A truly powerful language who's syntax is hardly understood by anyone these days.


On a slighty different tack...


And the answer is?

Reply Parent Score: 3

Treza Member since:

Something octal?
Like a 36bits computer?

Reply Parent Score: 3

galvanash Member since:

I haven't touched a PDP-11 in 25 years but...

012701 000065 MOV #65,R1
012702 000001 MOV #1,R2
060102 ADD R1,R2


Reply Parent Score: 6

RE: Forgotten past
by panzi on Sun 28th Jul 2013 19:47 in reply to "Forgotten past"
panzi Member since:

I think one has to write some programs (more than hello world) in these kind of languages, just to recognize what's possible, what paradigms are out there and to get an understanding what is suited for what:
a low-level language (e.g. C, maybe write a compiler for a very simple language that compiles to assembler)
a object oriented language (C++, Java, C#)
a dynamically typed language (Python, Ruby, JavaScript)
a language with meta-classes (Python, Smalltalk; although I think Python meta-classes > Smalltalk meta-classes)
a functional language (Haskell; it's the best choice if your goal is to understand what it truly means to write functional code)
a logic orientated language (Prolog)

Also use at least two query languages (SQL, SPARQL, XPath) and compare different kinds of "generics" (C++ Templates, Java Generics, C# Generics). And these days maybe also a language like Go or Rust. I actually haven't written any programs in these myself. Hmm, how would you classify these languages?

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[2]: Forgotten past
by Wafflez on Sun 28th Jul 2013 20:37 in reply to "RE: Forgotten past"
Wafflez Member since:

Well today I watched this hilarious Scala presentation:

And I feel that putting Java and C# in the same "directory" is so wrong. He touts on how Scala improves Java. And I agree. But compared to C# only valid point is less verboosines. Writing var, predicates for LINQ and using async - yeah I do that in C#.

But it's cool to hate C# and suggest Java to others, because you need not to only buy a server, but buy a Windows Server OS (that comes with a GUI and eats tons of megabytes of RAM just to do nothing, OH THE HORROR) and SQL Server. And it's from Microsoft.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Forgotten past
by Wafflez on Sun 28th Jul 2013 20:38 in reply to "RE: Forgotten past"
Wafflez Member since:


Edited 2013-07-28 20:39 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2