Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 9th Sep 2013 21:22 UTC, submitted by lucas_maximus
X11, Window Managers Intel on Ubuntu's XMir:

We do not condone or support Canonical in the course of action they have chosen, and will not carry XMir patches upstream.

Ubuntu has to do virtually all its work on Xmir drivers by itself. No one else supports it.

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Ubuntu had good reason
by carltonh on Tue 10th Sep 2013 02:58 UTC
carltonh
Member since:
2007-05-02

Ubuntu had good reason to think that the dominant commercial Linux community that doesn't like it (i.e. Red Hat) would act to thwart Ubuntu's attempt at a unique independent user experience, exactly like they did with GNOME 3.0. Remember that GNOME fought tooth and nail against letting the common user know how to shut down a PC...even when sleep or hibernation would crash the majority of PCs running Linux. Ubuntu at least fought this absolute idiocy.

Remember that Wayland has been around for FIVE YEARS with trivial progress before Mir was announced, and wasn't inclined to accept Ubuntu's patches. Given that, I don't fault Ubuntu, and Intel's action is understandable given their developer association with Red Hat.

I'm not an Ubuntu fanboy, as my time is 60/20/20 for Windows/Ubuntu/Sabayon. In the end, IMHO, Red Hat is jealous of Ubuntu's fame with annoyance at Ubuntu's trivial support for core elements such as the Linux kernel. However, IMO, such support should be fairly supported in proportion to profits, not fame.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Ubuntu had good reason
by Rahul on Tue 10th Sep 2013 04:22 in reply to "Ubuntu had good reason"
Rahul Member since:
2005-07-06

You have made several factual inaccuracies.

Intel is the primary backer of Wayland. Red Hat does work on other parts of the graphics stack including the input system but most of the contributors are either from Intel or Collabora

Canonical was the first commercial vendor to announce that they will be supporting Wayland however they never contributed to it and developed Mir for nearly an year in private without ever talking to Wayland developers who work for Intel and not Red Hat.

They also made some incorrect assertions about Wayland to justify creating Mir but had to fix it quickly after the PR disaster.

Also Wayland developers made enormous strides in making the transition from Xorg smoother including working on DRI and XWayland and Mir wouldn't even have been possible without all that work according to the Mir developers themselves.

Reply Parent Score: 8

RE[2]: Ubuntu had good reason
by Soulbender on Tue 10th Sep 2013 08:14 in reply to "RE: Ubuntu had good reason"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Intel is the primary backer of Wayland.


That explains it even more, doesn't it?

developed Mir for nearly an year in private without ever talking to Wayland developers who work for Intel and not Red Hat.


So you're saying they behave exactly like RH does on many of it's projects?

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE: Ubuntu had good reason
by Finalzone on Tue 10th Sep 2013 04:24 in reply to "Ubuntu had good reason"
Finalzone Member since:
2005-07-06

[...] Remember that GNOME fought tooth and nail against letting the common user know how to shut down a PC...even when sleep or hibernation would crash the majority of PCs running Linux. Ubuntu at least fought this absolute idiocy.

Please, Red Hat has nothing to do with Gnome decision despite their influence. Replace Gnome 3.0 by Unity, you have the same experience until it was fixed. Show how easily to install Unity on other distributions. Gnome Shell fully supports suspend and hibernation without crashing unless you use an obscure driver. Common users as you call have no problem using Gnome Shell. Shutdown feature was always available by pressing Alt to replace "Switch" prior to 3.6. That behaviour can be changed by either dconf or Tweak tools (now part of Gnome 3.10 by default)

Remember that Wayland has been around for FIVE YEARS with trivial progress before Mir was announced, and wasn't inclined to accept Ubuntu's patches. Given that, I don't fault Ubuntu, and Intel's action is understandable given their developer association with Red Hat.

Display server is argually the most complicated software to work on meaning the process are non-trivial considering the complexity of the nearly 30 years old X server. Without these five years done on Wayland, Mir would not exist, period. Many Canonical patches were either distro specific, hacks or bad hence reject. Wayland is distribution agnostic backed by several organisations, one of them is Intel hence this topic.

I'm not an Ubuntu fanboy, as my time is 60/20/20 for Windows/Ubuntu/Sabayon. In the end, IMHO, Red Hat is jealous of Ubuntu's fame with annoyance at Ubuntu's trivial support for core elements such as the Linux kernel. However, IMO, such support should be fairly supported in proportion to profits, not fame.


To quote a French expression: "qui s'excuse s'accuse". How Red Hat be jealous considering its biggest contributions in the Linux ecosystem especially the kernel Canonical heavily depends on?

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[2]: Ubuntu had good reason
by Soulbender on Tue 10th Sep 2013 08:19 in reply to "RE: Ubuntu had good reason"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

How Red Hat be jealous considering its biggest contributions in the Linux ecosystem especially the kernel Canonical heavily depends on?


Because Ubuntu has made inroads in the sector where RH failed spectacularly and never made a dent, namely desktop? (No Fedora doesn’t count and it's pretty much also a failure in this sector)

Edited 2013-09-10 08:20 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Ubuntu had good reason
by BallmerKnowsBest on Wed 11th Sep 2013 21:05 in reply to "Ubuntu had good reason"
BallmerKnowsBest Member since:
2008-06-02

Remember that Wayland has been around for FIVE YEARS with trivial progress before Mir was announced, and wasn't inclined to accept Ubuntu's patches. Given that, I don't fault Ubuntu, and Intel's action is understandable given their developer association with Red Hat.


That's the main reason why all of the whinging over this "issue" seems so overblown. It's essentially the same as what happened with Nokia - there's the self-serving myth where Maemo/Maego/whatever was poised for imminent success, if only big mean Microsoft hadn't come along and smothered it in the crib. But reality is that Maemo didn't NEED to be smothered by Microsoft, because it was already stillborn - Nokia had the better part of a decade to build a Linux-based mobile OS, and instead they wasted the time with directionless floundering, political in-fighting, etc.

Nokia doomed their Linux OS long before Windows Phone was even a glimmer in Microsoft's eye. And what makes Nokia's missteps truly inexcusable was when Palm came along in 2009, started their own Linux-based mobile OS and basically overtook Nokia from a standing start. Palm went from conception to having a product to market... in less time than it took Nokia to decide on a UI toolkit. It's like the fable of the tortoise and the hare... except in this case the hare still won even after sleeping through most of the race. 'Course, for Palm, their "prize" was becoming part of a figurative rabbit stew, but that's besides the point.

Same thing with Wayland/Mir: the current "problem" would never have existed in the first place if Wayland's development wasn't so glacially slow. I guess Canonical was just supposed to sit around with their thumbs up their asses, while the Wayland developers spent another 5 years bike-shedding...

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[2]: Ubuntu had good reason
by Rahul on Thu 12th Sep 2013 04:40 in reply to "RE: Ubuntu had good reason"
Rahul Member since:
2005-07-06

"Same thing with Wayland/Mir: the current "problem" would never have existed in the first place if Wayland's development wasn't so glacially slow. I guess Canonical was just supposed to sit around with their thumbs up their asses, while the Wayland developers spent another 5 years bike-shedding.."

Nonsense. Wayland developers (who are really Xorg developers btw) wrote major portions of KMS, DRI etc that made the transition away from Xorg even possible and Mir simple wouldn't even exist without all that work done from Wayland developers and in the open source world, if you want to speed up a project even further, you submit patches rather than write a new alternative from scratch.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Ubuntu had good reason
by zima on Sat 14th Sep 2013 13:09 in reply to "RE: Ubuntu had good reason"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

It's essentially the same as what happened with Nokia - there's the self-serving myth where Maemo/Maego/whatever was poised for imminent success, if only big mean Microsoft hadn't come along and smothered it in the crib.

I predict this will be worse than Amiga mythos...

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Ubuntu had good reason
by allanregistos on Thu 12th Sep 2013 04:58 in reply to "Ubuntu had good reason"
allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

Ubuntu had good reason to think that the dominant commercial Linux community that doesn't like it (i.e. Red Hat) would act to thwart Ubuntu's attempt at a unique independent user experience, exactly like they did with GNOME 3.0. Remember that GNOME fought tooth and nail against letting the common user know how to shut down a PC...even when sleep or hibernation would crash the majority of PCs running Linux. Ubuntu at least fought this absolute idiocy.

I remember fighting this at gnome-mailing list. And I've stopped subscribing to that list because of this. I think, from what I've experience from that mailing list, most GNOME developers knew nothing about the needs of a common business desktop PC, or just blinded. Their reasoning is that, they want to force users to use hibernate so that if some problem occurs, the more bugs they received, then they can fix hibernate issues in computers. But the subscribers(I think many were developers) were mostly using LAPTOPS, and I told them that in a business, we need to properly shutdown computers, unlike laptops. And it took them many releases before they gave up to this foolish reasoning and offered users the way how to SHUT DOWN computer. Previously they told users to LOG-OUT so that they can shutdown or press the ALT to reveal the hidden menu.

Woohh...

Reply Parent Score: 2