Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 21st Nov 2013 18:41 UTC, submitted by MOS6510
Windows

The big story in The New York Times on November 20, 1985, concerned Hurricane Kate's advance as it smashed into northern Cuba and the Florida Keys before barreling north to threaten the Gulf Coast. But another big story -- for the technology world -- was about to unfold thousands of miles away in Las Vegas, where the Comdex trade show was getting under way.

Apple had grabbed headlines a year earlier with the introduction of its graphical Macintosh. Now, after two years of delays, Microsoft was finally ready to debut the much-promised Microsoft Windows.

It became the blueprint for many of Microsoft's new product launches. Early versions suck, but get progressively better over the years.

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RE[7]: Comment by MOS6510
by lucas_maximus on Fri 22nd Nov 2013 22:07 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by MOS6510"
lucas_maximus
Member since:
2009-08-18

Yeah, but that's true for any system; OSes tend to run best on HW they support properly. RTFM is a wonderful thing and saves much time and effort in the tech field.


RTFM is not something that normal people should need to do or want to do. It is failing of the system if it requires a user to do that.

In fact I shouldn't need to do it either. The system should work for me ... not the other way around.

I can understand the frustration if one has some random laptop (purchased for other original purpose/intent) laying around and wants to try out Linux on a whim, only to find out the HW is not supported properly. But using that as an indictment against the entire system would be as odd as me claiming how Windows 8 still does not scale properly because I couldn't even get it to boot on my Raspberry Pi.


It is an indictment against the entire system because, it shows that it just isn't mature enough to be used effectively by people that aren't savvy unless it is significantly abstracted away (android is the perfect example).

Gnome and friends can talk all they like about HID guidelines and the ilk, but if people can't actually do stuff with it without mucking about it is essentially useless for the majority of the population.

Linux has always succeeded on servers and embedded (I consider Android sufficiently locked down to be called embedded) because what we know as Linux is abstracted away from the user.

I dunno why this is so hard to grok.

Edit to add: There are also flaws on any system. Linux distros will foobar things and drivers every now and then. But so does windows as well, for example we can revisit the debacle which were the graphics drivers on Vista's early days. Now, if Linux is not the right tool for someone, then they should not use it nor waste time with it.


The API changed so Manufacturers didn't get it right. It doesn't change as nearly as often as the Linux API/ABI does. The only way to ensure compatibility is to give your code over and that isn't an option for a lot of companies ... thus you have the churn change situation.

I think it is f--king crazy that there are slightly different versions of the same components put together in different distros and people aren't surprised by it working.

I know that even changing how some of my JS is called in my larger JS apps can break everything and there is far less code than in distro.

But hey, I am a software engineer ... not a hacker, so what do I know.

Edited 2013-11-22 22:17 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[8]: Comment by MOS6510
by tylerdurden on Sat 23rd Nov 2013 03:11 in reply to "RE[7]: Comment by MOS6510"
tylerdurden Member since:
2009-03-17

RTFM is not something that normal people should need to do or want to do. It is failing of the system if it requires a user to do that.

In fact I shouldn't need to do it either. The system should work for me ... not the other way around.


It's called "instructions/information" which is something normal humans still have to do when faced with something they do not know. That is, until we have figured out how to transfer information directly into our brains by bypassing basic cognitive processes. Until that happens RTFM it is...

If you do not know what you're doing, you have to find out. That applies to linux as well as Windows.

It is an indictment against the entire system because, it shows that it just isn't mature enough to be used effectively by people that aren't savvy unless it is significantly abstracted away (android is the perfect example).


How in bloody hell is an indictment against a system for it to not work on a platform it does not support? If I give my grandma an old ass laptop and a Windows 8 DVD, throw away the instructions, and tell her to install a fresh copy of windows on it. Guess what? She won't know what the fuck I'm even asking her to do. Oh well, I guess that's an indictment against the entire Windows ecosystem. What a failure!

Gnome and friends can talk all they like about HID guidelines and the ilk, but if people can't actually do stuff with it without mucking about it is essentially useless for the majority of the population.


You mean like how people had to google how to do basic stuff such as turning off the computer or close down an application under Metro? And I'm talking about people with PhD's in CS, because there is nothing more intuitive than a GUI concept called "charm" or dragging a window with a mouse to close the app. Obviously I assume as far as you're concerned is impossible for a Microsoft product to be flawed, they're just "featureful."

Linux has always succeeded on servers and embedded (I consider Android sufficiently locked down to be called embedded) because what we know as Linux is abstracted away from the user.

I dunno why this is so hard to grok.


Apparently is not as easy as you think, since you don't seem to understand what "embedded" means in the context of computing.

The API changed so Manufacturers didn't get it right. It doesn't change as nearly as often as the Linux API/ABI does. The only way to ensure compatibility is to give your code over and that isn't an option for a lot of companies ... thus you have the churn change situation.


There is more to it than that. Also, care to produce quantitative reference to how many times Linux's APIs have fundamentally changed vs. Windows?

I think it is f--king crazy that there are slightly different versions of the same components put together in different distros and people aren't surprised by it working.


Is this the part where you have to be explained what "distro" means in the context of Linuxland?

I know that even changing how some of my JS is called in my larger JS apps can break everything and there is far less code than in distro.

But hey, I am a software engineer ... not a hacker, so what do I know.


I know what you mean, as a kid I had a crappy summer job as a fossil fuel engineer specializing in transfers of broad octane spectrum petrochemical hydrocarbons. Alas, people never took my arguments to authority on chemistry and the oil industry in general seriously...

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[9]: Comment by MOS6510
by lucas_maximus on Sat 23rd Nov 2013 09:24 in reply to "RE[8]: Comment by MOS6510"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

It's called "instructions/information" which is something normal humans still have to do when faced with something they do not know. That is, until we have figured out how to transfer information directly into our brains by bypassing basic cognitive processes. Until that happens RTFM it is...

If you do not know what you're doing, you have to find out. That applies to linux as well as Windows.


Well there are these companies that called Apple that work on the principle you shouldn't need to, they make a lot of money. There a quick startup guide and that is about the only thing you get.

Most web development is about usability, check out people like brad frost.

http://bradfrostweb.com/blog/

People have better things to do than read manuals ... like getting on with their life. If the system is too complicated or onerous they will just choose something else or avoid using it.

How in bloody hell is an indictment against a system for it to not work on a platform it does not support? If I give my grandma an old ass laptop and a Windows 8 DVD, throw away the instructions, and tell her to install a fresh copy of windows on it. Guess what? She won't know what the fuck I'm even asking her to do. Oh well, I guess that's an indictment against the entire Windows ecosystem. What a failure!


That wasn't what I was talking about. Things that are easy on other operating systems just don't always work as expected on Linux the situation hasn't changed in over 10 years (I started using Linux in the Redhat 7.2 days).

You mean like how people had to google how to do basic stuff such as turning off the computer or close down an application under Metro? And I'm talking about people with PhD's in CS, because there is nothing more intuitive than a GUI concept called "charm" or dragging a window with a mouse to close the app. Obviously I assume as far as you're concerned is impossible for a Microsoft product to be flawed, they're just "featureful."


I am talking generally about usability and expected feature sets.

My SD card never worked right in my laptop until a few months before I sold it last year .... and I don't care why it doesn't work ... I expect it to work, it is a simple bit of kit compared to others things that were working on there.

As moondevil said after a while you get sick of fiddling and just use an existing system that works.

I moved to OSX for a short period because I needed a stable usable nix. My choices were Solaris (slow as fuck and doesn't run well on a laptop) or a Mac.

We are moving away from TFS at work, to GIT ... because TFS is a big pile of shit and for a lot less money we can have the same experience using GIT with Atlassian tools.

This isn't about Windows vs Linux, or Microsoft vs Open source. This is about "Does this work for what I want it to do", if it doesn't I don't care how good you think it is.

I want to leave the office on time, so I can go home get ready and spend my Evening as I wish.

Apparently is not as easy as you think, since you don't seem to understand what "embedded" means in the context of computing.


* Server is locked down environment normally only certain people with experience of working with them are allowed to make changes on them directly.

* Phone operating systems are typically tied to the phone i.e the hardware is almost useless without that OS on the system. That is close to being embedded IMHO. I know it technically isn't, but you knew what I meant.

* Actual embedded platforms.

You knew what I meant. Being a pedant doesn't make you right, it just makes you sound like a arsehole.

There is more to it than that. Also, care to produce quantitative reference to how many times Linux's APIs have fundamentally changed vs. Windows?


I don't know, but I don't have to get a new nvidia driver package everytime there are updates in Windows, in Linux land I do.

That suggests to me something is wrong with their designs decisions somewhere.

Is this the part where you have to be explained what "distro" means in the context of Linuxland?


Most people would think you were talking about traditional distros like fedora, debian and the ilk.

Again being a pedant for the sake of it.

I know what you mean, as a kid I had a crappy summer job as a fossil fuel engineer specializing in transfers of broad octane spectrum petrochemical hydrocarbons. Alas, people never took my arguments to authority on chemistry and the oil industry in general seriously...


Being trite as per usual. Pathetic.

I put things together in a way that can be easily changed. I use quite a lot of different software components to put together a web application, there are huge amounts of system and server side code I have to interface with (I work for a gambling company, the systems aren't much different that high frequency trading systems).

I am a software engineer. I work at a higher level than you do yes, but this ivory tower bollox I get tired of.

Reply Parent Score: 2