Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 21st Nov 2013 18:41 UTC, submitted by MOS6510
Windows

The big story in The New York Times on November 20, 1985, concerned Hurricane Kate's advance as it smashed into northern Cuba and the Florida Keys before barreling north to threaten the Gulf Coast. But another big story -- for the technology world -- was about to unfold thousands of miles away in Las Vegas, where the Comdex trade show was getting under way.

Apple had grabbed headlines a year earlier with the introduction of its graphical Macintosh. Now, after two years of delays, Microsoft was finally ready to debut the much-promised Microsoft Windows.

It became the blueprint for many of Microsoft's new product launches. Early versions suck, but get progressively better over the years.

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RE[8]: Comment by MOS6510
by tylerdurden on Sat 23rd Nov 2013 03:11 UTC in reply to "RE[7]: Comment by MOS6510"
tylerdurden
Member since:
2009-03-17

RTFM is not something that normal people should need to do or want to do. It is failing of the system if it requires a user to do that.

In fact I shouldn't need to do it either. The system should work for me ... not the other way around.


It's called "instructions/information" which is something normal humans still have to do when faced with something they do not know. That is, until we have figured out how to transfer information directly into our brains by bypassing basic cognitive processes. Until that happens RTFM it is...

If you do not know what you're doing, you have to find out. That applies to linux as well as Windows.

It is an indictment against the entire system because, it shows that it just isn't mature enough to be used effectively by people that aren't savvy unless it is significantly abstracted away (android is the perfect example).


How in bloody hell is an indictment against a system for it to not work on a platform it does not support? If I give my grandma an old ass laptop and a Windows 8 DVD, throw away the instructions, and tell her to install a fresh copy of windows on it. Guess what? She won't know what the fuck I'm even asking her to do. Oh well, I guess that's an indictment against the entire Windows ecosystem. What a failure!

Gnome and friends can talk all they like about HID guidelines and the ilk, but if people can't actually do stuff with it without mucking about it is essentially useless for the majority of the population.


You mean like how people had to google how to do basic stuff such as turning off the computer or close down an application under Metro? And I'm talking about people with PhD's in CS, because there is nothing more intuitive than a GUI concept called "charm" or dragging a window with a mouse to close the app. Obviously I assume as far as you're concerned is impossible for a Microsoft product to be flawed, they're just "featureful."

Linux has always succeeded on servers and embedded (I consider Android sufficiently locked down to be called embedded) because what we know as Linux is abstracted away from the user.

I dunno why this is so hard to grok.


Apparently is not as easy as you think, since you don't seem to understand what "embedded" means in the context of computing.

The API changed so Manufacturers didn't get it right. It doesn't change as nearly as often as the Linux API/ABI does. The only way to ensure compatibility is to give your code over and that isn't an option for a lot of companies ... thus you have the churn change situation.


There is more to it than that. Also, care to produce quantitative reference to how many times Linux's APIs have fundamentally changed vs. Windows?

I think it is f--king crazy that there are slightly different versions of the same components put together in different distros and people aren't surprised by it working.


Is this the part where you have to be explained what "distro" means in the context of Linuxland?

I know that even changing how some of my JS is called in my larger JS apps can break everything and there is far less code than in distro.

But hey, I am a software engineer ... not a hacker, so what do I know.


I know what you mean, as a kid I had a crappy summer job as a fossil fuel engineer specializing in transfers of broad octane spectrum petrochemical hydrocarbons. Alas, people never took my arguments to authority on chemistry and the oil industry in general seriously...

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[9]: Comment by MOS6510
by lucas_maximus on Sat 23rd Nov 2013 09:24 in reply to "RE[8]: Comment by MOS6510"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

It's called "instructions/information" which is something normal humans still have to do when faced with something they do not know. That is, until we have figured out how to transfer information directly into our brains by bypassing basic cognitive processes. Until that happens RTFM it is...

If you do not know what you're doing, you have to find out. That applies to linux as well as Windows.


Well there are these companies that called Apple that work on the principle you shouldn't need to, they make a lot of money. There a quick startup guide and that is about the only thing you get.

Most web development is about usability, check out people like brad frost.

http://bradfrostweb.com/blog/

People have better things to do than read manuals ... like getting on with their life. If the system is too complicated or onerous they will just choose something else or avoid using it.

How in bloody hell is an indictment against a system for it to not work on a platform it does not support? If I give my grandma an old ass laptop and a Windows 8 DVD, throw away the instructions, and tell her to install a fresh copy of windows on it. Guess what? She won't know what the fuck I'm even asking her to do. Oh well, I guess that's an indictment against the entire Windows ecosystem. What a failure!


That wasn't what I was talking about. Things that are easy on other operating systems just don't always work as expected on Linux the situation hasn't changed in over 10 years (I started using Linux in the Redhat 7.2 days).

You mean like how people had to google how to do basic stuff such as turning off the computer or close down an application under Metro? And I'm talking about people with PhD's in CS, because there is nothing more intuitive than a GUI concept called "charm" or dragging a window with a mouse to close the app. Obviously I assume as far as you're concerned is impossible for a Microsoft product to be flawed, they're just "featureful."


I am talking generally about usability and expected feature sets.

My SD card never worked right in my laptop until a few months before I sold it last year .... and I don't care why it doesn't work ... I expect it to work, it is a simple bit of kit compared to others things that were working on there.

As moondevil said after a while you get sick of fiddling and just use an existing system that works.

I moved to OSX for a short period because I needed a stable usable nix. My choices were Solaris (slow as fuck and doesn't run well on a laptop) or a Mac.

We are moving away from TFS at work, to GIT ... because TFS is a big pile of shit and for a lot less money we can have the same experience using GIT with Atlassian tools.

This isn't about Windows vs Linux, or Microsoft vs Open source. This is about "Does this work for what I want it to do", if it doesn't I don't care how good you think it is.

I want to leave the office on time, so I can go home get ready and spend my Evening as I wish.

Apparently is not as easy as you think, since you don't seem to understand what "embedded" means in the context of computing.


* Server is locked down environment normally only certain people with experience of working with them are allowed to make changes on them directly.

* Phone operating systems are typically tied to the phone i.e the hardware is almost useless without that OS on the system. That is close to being embedded IMHO. I know it technically isn't, but you knew what I meant.

* Actual embedded platforms.

You knew what I meant. Being a pedant doesn't make you right, it just makes you sound like a arsehole.

There is more to it than that. Also, care to produce quantitative reference to how many times Linux's APIs have fundamentally changed vs. Windows?


I don't know, but I don't have to get a new nvidia driver package everytime there are updates in Windows, in Linux land I do.

That suggests to me something is wrong with their designs decisions somewhere.

Is this the part where you have to be explained what "distro" means in the context of Linuxland?


Most people would think you were talking about traditional distros like fedora, debian and the ilk.

Again being a pedant for the sake of it.

I know what you mean, as a kid I had a crappy summer job as a fossil fuel engineer specializing in transfers of broad octane spectrum petrochemical hydrocarbons. Alas, people never took my arguments to authority on chemistry and the oil industry in general seriously...


Being trite as per usual. Pathetic.

I put things together in a way that can be easily changed. I use quite a lot of different software components to put together a web application, there are huge amounts of system and server side code I have to interface with (I work for a gambling company, the systems aren't much different that high frequency trading systems).

I am a software engineer. I work at a higher level than you do yes, but this ivory tower bollox I get tired of.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[10]: Comment by MOS6510
by tylerdurden on Sat 23rd Nov 2013 22:53 in reply to "RE[9]: Comment by MOS6510"
tylerdurden Member since:
2009-03-17


Most web development is about usability, check out people like brad frost.

http://bradfrostweb.com/blog/


Uh, a random post about web design? We're discussing different processes. Installing and configuring an OS from scratch requires some level of understanding, be it Windows, Linux, or even OSX.

You think the windows process is easy because you're used to it, so it's easy to confuse something being familiar with it being intuitive. Ask any random person who knows little about 'puters to install windows from scratch and configure it properly without instructions. Good luck with that. That's why there is a whole consulting industry around consumer computing (esp. Windows).

I have no idea why once again you're bringing random tangential crap to obfuscate things.


People have better things to do than read manuals ... like getting on with their life. If the system is too complicated or onerous they will just choose something else or avoid using it.


Which means that system is probably not for them. Linux is not for everybody. That again applies to Windows, Mac, or whatever.

Installing the latest Ubuntu is as complex as installing the latest Windows 8. The latter may have a slight edge but it costs money so people expect more, while the former is free thus some accommodating may be expected. But all in all consumer stuff is easier. On the other hand, integrating and configuring a corporate environment requires a bit more effort and knowledge in both linux and windows.

Simple concepts really.


That wasn't what I was talking about. Things that are easy on other operating systems just don't always work as expected on Linux the situation hasn't changed in over 10 years (I started using Linux in the Redhat 7.2 days).


And the vice versa also applies; things that are bloody easy on linux are really really hard on windows. No system is perfect, every single one has warts. Stop dealing with absolutes, because that's the easiest way to be absolutely wrong.



I am talking generally about usability and expected feature sets.


so was I. Turning off the computer and closing an application are right up there in the list of basic usability requirements.

People manage to be productive on both Windows and Linux. You're trying to make it seems as if it is impossible to be productive on a linux desktop/laptop which is just plain FUD. Just like how people claimed it's impossible to get anything done on Win8, which was also silly uninformed FUD.


My SD card never worked right in my laptop until a few months before I sold it last year .... and I don't care why it doesn't work ... I expect it to work, it is a simple bit of kit compared to others things that were working on there.


The fingerprint reader in my other laptop stopped working when I upgraded to Windows 8. I don't care why it doesn't work... I expect it to work, it is a simple bit of kit compared to other things that were working on there.

What's good for the gander should be applicable for the geese as well. So obviously Windows 8 is an utter failure, Right?


As moondevil said after a while you get sick of fiddling and just use an existing system that works.


That, again, applies to every fucking OS on the planet. If Linux doesn't work for you, do not use it. It's a tool.

But I also suspect you have had to put a little bit of fiddling in order to get your Windows system to work just like you need it/want it to. You just simply like Redmond's Finest better, so what you thought was an unacceptable chore in Linux, becomes a pleasurable opportunity to geek out with Windows. I assume linux zealots suffer from the same affliction but the opposite direction.


I moved to OSX for a short period because I needed a stable usable nix. My choices were Solaris (slow as fuck and doesn't run well on a laptop) or a Mac.


I like when you try to show off with those irrelevant personal anecdotes, but they end up highlighting you really have little to no clue on certain stuffs. It really is not that hard to get a productive and stable linux mobile environment, especially if you're buying the laptop for that purpose.


This isn't about Windows vs Linux, or Microsoft vs Open source. This is about "Does this work for what I want it to do", if it doesn't I don't care how good you think it is.


And I'm simply trying to explain to you that "it doesn't work, for you" it's a bit different than "it does not work, period."


I want to leave the office on time, so I can go home get ready and spend my Evening as I wish.


That's not very professional. Perhaps you should actually work when you're at the office, rather than waste time commenting on a random website.


You knew what I meant. Being a pedant doesn't make you right, it just makes you sound like a arsehole.


How exactly is it my fault that you don't know basic computing terminology?

In the time it took you to write all that nonsense you could have googled a basic definition for the term and learn what it means. Alas...


I don't know, but I don't have to get a new nvidia driver package everytime there are updates in Windows, in Linux land I do.

That suggests to me something is wrong with their designs decisions somewhere.


No, it simply suggest you're comparing apples to oranges because you don't understand what's going on. E.g. You don't have to update the driver in linux whenever you update things, because not every linux update is a kernel update. Just like not every update in windows affects the kernel either.

Remember what I said earlier about absolutes?


Most people would think you were talking about traditional distros like fedora, debian and the ilk.

Again being a pedant for the sake of it.


I'm starting to suspect "pedantic" is yet another item in the long list of terms that do not mean what you think they do...


Being trite as per usual. Pathetic.


It's called a joke. Humor is something that people without massive insecurity complexes don't tend to find that threatening.



Blah, blah, bah...

I am a software engineer. I work at a higher level than you do yes, but this ivory tower bollox I get tired of.


Again, I don't give a shit what it is that you do. In the same sense nobody should give a shit that I have orders of magnitude more industry experience and academic formation than you. It's irrelevant because arguments to authority on an anonymous forum are silly.

That you're a supposed "software engineer" it's irrelevant to this discussion, because it does not make your opinion automatically correct. You could very well be a shitty "software engineer" who does not know what he's talking about.

Reply Parent Score: 2