Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 20th Jan 2014 23:59 UTC, submitted by Drumhellar
FreeBSD

FreeBSD 10 has been released. You can read the release notes, and, of course, go ahead and install it.

Thread beginning with comment 581286
To view parent comment, click here.
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
Doc Pain
Member since:
2006-10-08

You don't want to hurt religious people, yet your rants tried to impose your secular concepts about symbols and things to religious people?:


Wrong. I don't impose anything, I'm just stating my very individual opinion and make suggestions. In how far those can be followed is a decision everyone has to make for himself. And as I also said, I do not understand why one would misunderstand a sphere with spike as something demonic and de-value the operating system project it's just a logo (of minor importance) for.

I have known people(And these are employers) that in their business will remove or moved objects just to conform to their Feng Shui,


I know about Feng Shui, there's nothing wrong with it.

it may not creep into technology, but when they saw a logo like that of FreeBSD's, I don't know.


I admit this is possible, but again: Judging a computer operating system by its logo simply doesn't sound right to me.

Consider RELEASING a software to the public with a Satanic logo(Google provides you with a log of these symbols) and let us see.


Well, "to the public" is a very broad target audience. All products typically have a specific target market. And for FreeBSD, those who use it are either fine with its logo or just ignore it.

It's mainly about interpretation. As long as nobody "feels offended" by a logo, the product properties or the corporation behind it don't really matter, even if it's a clerical-fascistoid megacorp that spies on people or does other bad things.

Common, please use Oracle in the context of Oracle's business. Your comparisons fall short.


No. I'm applying the same "logic" here, it's all about interpretation, assumption and attribution. And my examples are all wrong. Your statement also works in reverse: Use the FreeBSD logo in the context of the FreeBSD OS.

FreeBSD uses an explicit image that can be interpreted as offensive to some religious folks.


Yes, I don't deny that it can do this. But so can others, too.

Do not go overboard and being an OA.


What's an "OA"?

When someone criticizes a logo, that means we have different opinions over things and thats normal,


It's interesting that nobody had the phantasy that I've demonstrated in my "critic considerations" and carry it to the big corporations with their logos. It seems to be easier to discuss this topic on free and open software instead of "established business software", and FreeBSD has been a typical target over the years. OpenBSD (logo: a fish with spikes) and NetBSD (logo: a flag) hasn't been addressed in that way.

because the world does not revolve around your head and will not spin because your head says so.


It's interesting that the sun did revolve around the earth 500 years ago, and it was an accepted truth. :-)

Some professionalism can be expressed in the used of Logo, AND I CAN'T see it with a demonic figure with fork in his hands.


Isn't it possible to see the intended analogy of a daemon (a system serivce) with a friendly little guy in sneakers and with a pitchfork? Why is there anything demonic (usually in a christian interpretation) in it? Is it in a bull too? It has horns.

That reminds me of the battle between Gabriel and the Devil. Little google search reminds us the importance of logo, http://www.decodedscience.com/why-corporate-logos-matter-to-compani...
and the wikipedia tells us more.


Please read up on the "mark of the beast", its importance in performing trade, and see the analogy in smartphones and upcoming implants. It's possible and valid to draw that implication.

The fact is the world is not the U.S. and the U.S. is not the world. Some people think this way and can't get away to see that there are people that will going to disagree with them on certain subjects, and that because they live in a FIRST WORLD COUNTRY, they can dictate anyone on any subjects, be it religious, marriage, and moral values.


I fully agree.

There are better alternatives, if you can't market your product properly, even if how good you think it is, sorry. I have CentOS, enough already. Thanks.


Marketing has nothing to do with product quality. Instead, aggressive marketing can compensate poor product quality. If you have a bad product and throw money at marketing, people will still buy it even though they could have better alternatives for less money. This is what reality keeps teaching us for many years now.

On the other hand, if you have a good product, people will use it despite it has a strange logo or doesn't perform big marketing acts. FreeBSD for example has many users who value it, even though it's "for free".

And please consider something else:

The BSDL (FreeBSD license) allows using its source code without contribution or notification, changing it, turning it into closed source, and selling it, even develop own products. Just think how many routers,
managed switches, firewalls and NAS are out there, running FreeBSD, without anyone knowing it? And how comfortable are you with the fact that you probably have no way of finding it out?

Reply Parent Score: 3

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

"You don't want to hurt religious people, yet your rants tried to impose your secular concepts about symbols and things to religious people?:


Wrong. I don't impose anything, I'm just stating my very individual opinion and make suggestions. In how far those can be followed is a decision everyone has to make for himself. And as I also said, I do not understand why one would misunderstand a sphere with spike as something demonic and de-value the operating system project it's just a logo (of minor importance) for.
"Okay.

"I have known people(And these are employers) that in their business will remove or moved objects just to conform to their Feng Shui,

I know about Feng Shui, there's nothing wrong with it.
"For the curious, from a perspective of a Christian, I do not agree with Feng Shui, it is inconsistent with Christianity.

"it may not creep into technology, but when they saw a logo like that of FreeBSD's, I don't know.


I admit this is possible, but again: Judging a computer operating system by its logo simply doesn't sound right to me.
"
Sorry, I attribute the importance of logos in virtually all product made by man. I agree with you that FreeBSD will not be judged according to the logo. I only made a statement that I've felt their is something wrong with their logo, in this case, only the logo, not the FreeBSD people. I believe these people are highly talented, we can see it in the product. But I can't see it in the logo.

If it is true(I think it is) that they(FreeBSD) don't care much about the logo, then a change of the logo is fine for them. But I doubt this is the case, maybe it involves a lot of work. Maybe, there are also a lot of fanboys who will going to disagree of the change, not for technical reasons but for religious reasons as well, even though they do not belong to any religious sect.

"Consider RELEASING a software to the public with a Satanic logo(Google provides you with a log of these symbols) and let us see.


Well, "to the public" is a very broad target audience. All products typically have a specific target market. And for FreeBSD, those who use it are either fine with its logo or just ignore it.
"
Okay. But I consider FreeBSD a product made for the public to use. My point being is, you cannot just put a logo around your product without thinking of what your logo represents or tells about your product. And I've found the FreeBSD mascot disturbing. Well, its okay with you since you do not belong to a group that cares about symbols.

It's mainly about interpretation. As long as nobody "feels offended" by a logo, the product properties or the corporation behind it don't really matter, even if it's a clerical-fascistoid megacorp that spies on people or does other bad things.

"Common, please use Oracle in the context of Oracle's business. Your comparisons fall short.


No. I'm applying the same "logic" here, it's all about interpretation, assumption and attribution. And my examples are all wrong. Your statement also works in reverse: Use the FreeBSD logo in the context of the FreeBSD OS.
FreeBSD uses an explicit image that can be interpreted as offensive to some religious folks.


Yes, I don't deny that it can do this. But so can others, too.
"
Word Oracle. They can predict of what the future holds in terms of technology and create a product around it, and there's nothing wrong with it, in contrast to the Demon holding a fork.

"Do not go overboard and being an OA.


What's an "OA"?
" Sorry for the confusion. Its Over Acting.

"When someone criticizes a logo, that means we have different opinions over things and thats normal,


It's interesting that nobody had the phantasy that I've demonstrated in my "critic considerations" and carry it to the big corporations with their logos. It seems to be easier to discuss this topic on free and open software instead of "established business software", and FreeBSD has been a typical target over the years. OpenBSD (logo: a fish with spikes) and NetBSD (logo: a flag) hasn't been addressed in that way.
"Now you see that problem.

"because the world does not revolve around your head and will not spin because your head says so.


It's interesting that the sun did revolve around the earth 500 years ago, and it was an accepted truth. :-)
"
Actually what I am saying is sometimes what we consider true is not always true as you've stated about the sun. What you consider in your _culture_ to be the absolute truth is not an absolute truth elsewhere. In the FreeBSD circle, I agree that there is no such a thing as giving an importance to the logo, but this is not _always_ true outside of that circle. You have to accept that. Try to suggest a Logo change in one of their mailing list, and let us see the feedback.

"Some professionalism can be expressed in the used of Logo, AND I CAN'T see it with a demonic figure with fork in his hands.


Isn't it possible to see the intended analogy of a daemon (a system serivce) with a friendly little guy in sneakers and with a pitchfork? Why is there anything demonic (usually in a christian interpretation) in it? Is it in a bull too? It has horns.
"
What is a demon by the way?

"That reminds me of the battle between Gabriel and the Devil. Little google search reminds us the importance of logo, http://www.decodedscience.com/why-corporate-logos-matter-to-compani...
and the wikipedia tells us more.


Please read up on the "mark of the beast", its importance in performing trade, and see the analogy in smartphones and upcoming implants. It's possible and valid to draw that implication.
"
I have no time yet.

"The fact is the world is not the U.S. and the U.S. is not the world. Some people think this way and can't get away to see that there are people that will going to disagree with them on certain subjects, and that because they live in a FIRST WORLD COUNTRY, they can dictate anyone on any subjects, be it religious, marriage, and moral values.


I fully agree.

There are better alternatives, if you can't market your product properly, even if how good you think it is, sorry. I have CentOS, enough already. Thanks.


Marketing has nothing to do with product quality.
" I agree.
Instead, aggressive marketing can compensate poor product quality. If you have a bad product and throw money at marketing, people will still buy it even though they could have better alternatives for less money. This is what reality keeps teaching us for many years now.

It would be better to market a product with quality inside and out.

On the other hand, if you have a good product, people will use it despite it has a strange logo or doesn't perform big marketing acts. FreeBSD for example has many users who value it, even though it's "for free".

And please consider something else:

The BSDL (FreeBSD license) allows using its source code without contribution or notification, changing it, turning it into closed source, and selling it, even develop own products. Just think how many routers,
managed switches, firewalls and NAS are out there, running FreeBSD, without anyone knowing it? And how comfortable are you with the fact that you probably have no way of finding it out?

Then use GPL. I fail to see the connection.

Reply Parent Score: 1

Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

For the curious, from a perspective of a Christian, I do not agree with Feng Shui, it is inconsistent with Christianity.


But it doesn't have to be. The chrisitian religion is one among many.

I attribute the importance of logos in virtually all product made by man. I agree with you that FreeBSD will not be judged according to the logo. I only made a statement that I've felt their is something wrong with their logo, in this case, only the logo, not the FreeBSD people. I believe these people are highly talented, we can see it in the product. But I can't see it in the logo.


I assume that the logo is of such a low importance to others that they never really thought about changing it. M. K. McKusick came up with the idea many years ago and it has been kept that way. Some years ago, it has been changed to the more neutral "sphere with spikes" which itself isn't "anything". Some people attribute to it that it symbolizes a head with horns, others say it's some strange sex toy, and even others say that it's an orb with two cones on top, nothing more, nothing less. The logo itself is neutral, it's attribution and interpretation that apply a personal feeling and make it "non-neutral".

If it is true(I think it is) that they(FreeBSD) don't care much about the logo, then a change of the logo is fine for them.


Technically it should be possible, but as FreeBSD is community-driven, there needs to be a consensus on what to do. This isn't a "boss decision" in some corporate hierarchy.

But I doubt this is the case, maybe it involves a lot of work. Maybe, there are also a lot of fanboys who will going to disagree of the change, not for technical reasons but for religious reasons as well, even though they do not belong to any religious sect.


In the distant past, Christianity has been considered a sect too. In my opinion, religious belief is something so personal and individual that it shouldn't dictate business decisions. Of course people don't just judge with their brain (even though sometimes they should), but also with their heart or stomach. This is fully natural, as the heart "in between" the mind and the hands, so you shouldn't buy a product which you don't feel comfortable with. Whatever makes you uncomfortable, be it a logo, a business strategy, the appearance of the company's CEO in public, or the connections a corporation has with governments and secret services - that should be considered. Of course big companies won't give up their important contracts with spying agencies and oppressive regimes just to please a few potential customers (or should I say "users" because their users often are the products, not the customers)...

But I consider FreeBSD a product made for the public to use. My point being is, you cannot just put a logo around your product without thinking of what your logo represents or tells about your product.


Tells whom, that is significant. For example, the swastika is a highly-negatively perceived symbol since WW2, but there are cultures where this symbol is noting negative, or to be more precise, is a positive symbol.

Context matters a lot.

People who are not "picky-christian" will possibly not feel offended. :-)

And I've found the FreeBSD mascot disturbing. Well, its okay with you since you do not belong to a group that cares about symbols.


Oh, I care about symbols a lot, when they are significant and influence people. Symbols aren't just graphical images, it's also words, gestures, even whole cultures that represent things, concepts, or companies. But I know when it's not worth caring about a symbol and trying to see something in it that actually isn't even there.

Word Oracle. They can predict of what the future holds in terms of technology and create a product around it, and there's nothing wrong with it, in contrast to the Demon holding a fork.


Oh, really? I think now you're leaving the path of logic, education, truth and common sense.

Oracle cannot predict the future any more or less a normal person can. They can even be criticized of collecting data they don't have the right to obtain and use it in their calculations to make up figures about the future. They control future demands by vendor lock-in, they control people's expectations by advertising.

See the word "oracle" in its initial meaning: a divination. Even in christian mythology, oracles refer to blessings toward people who deceive a divine revelation of god. Do you really assume Oracle managers and shareholders are addressed by god in that way?

Actually what I am saying is sometimes what we consider true is not always true as you've stated about the sun. What you consider in your _culture_ to be the absolute truth is not an absolute truth elsewhere.


There is no absolute truth, except maybe logic which is independent from individual opinions, preferences or imaginations.

In the FreeBSD circle, I agree that there is no such a thing as giving an importance to the logo, but this is not _always_ true outside of that circle.


I'm not sure that that the logo is void of importance. It's simply that many people receive the "message of the logo" as a friendly little helper (I won't even say daemon or ghost or whatnot) that serves you by keeping your systems running. It's attributed positive aspects.

You have to accept that. Try to suggest a Logo change in one of their mailing list, and let us see the feedback.


This discussion has been held on the mailing lists many times, as the archives show.

What is a demon by the way?


Ha, now we're getting to the interesting questions!

First of all, spelling matters. It's not a demon, it's a daemon. A daemon is usually understood as a lower deity that serves you. They are usually associated with nature or its forces, being benevolent, understanding and helpful, a guide or a messenger.

The daemon has been chosen as a mascot because daemons are important system processes of any UNIX system. They are even called daemons. Such processes exist in other systems too, but they're named differently, for example services or jobs.

The negative attribution of possession is something Christianity's superiors created. There is even "logic" in doing so: Things can't simply be abolished, they need to be replaced and reinterpreted, and to make people avoid them, it has to be something negative. This is what we see here, I assume.

You can find out more technical details here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(computing)

Regarding the BSD daemon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_Daemon

http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/daemon.html

It would be better to market a product with quality inside and out.


That would be the optimal solution that would make itself superfluous: A really good product doesn't need marketing, it will speak for itself. :-)

Regarding "hidden FreeBSD in products":

Then use GPL. I fail to see the connection.


That doesn't solve the problem that you could be using FreeBSD in your router or WLAN AP without knowing. That's a general problem of closed source products: You have no real way of finding out what's inside. Companies also steal open source code and put this in their products without following the rules of the GPL. The BSDL explicitely allows them to do this, that's why it's sometimes called a "rape me license".

Fact is that many parts of the BSDs (especially OpenBSD, but also FreeBSD) has made its way into other products, such as Mac OS X, storage products, firewalls and closed source server tools. The logo isn't shown anywhere, but people keep using it. In most cases, they don't even know.

Reply Parent Score: 3