Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 20th Jan 2014 23:59 UTC, submitted by Drumhellar
FreeBSD

FreeBSD 10 has been released. You can read the release notes, and, of course, go ahead and install it.

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Doc Pain
Member since:
2006-10-08

For the curious, from a perspective of a Christian, I do not agree with Feng Shui, it is inconsistent with Christianity.


But it doesn't have to be. The chrisitian religion is one among many.

I attribute the importance of logos in virtually all product made by man. I agree with you that FreeBSD will not be judged according to the logo. I only made a statement that I've felt their is something wrong with their logo, in this case, only the logo, not the FreeBSD people. I believe these people are highly talented, we can see it in the product. But I can't see it in the logo.


I assume that the logo is of such a low importance to others that they never really thought about changing it. M. K. McKusick came up with the idea many years ago and it has been kept that way. Some years ago, it has been changed to the more neutral "sphere with spikes" which itself isn't "anything". Some people attribute to it that it symbolizes a head with horns, others say it's some strange sex toy, and even others say that it's an orb with two cones on top, nothing more, nothing less. The logo itself is neutral, it's attribution and interpretation that apply a personal feeling and make it "non-neutral".

If it is true(I think it is) that they(FreeBSD) don't care much about the logo, then a change of the logo is fine for them.


Technically it should be possible, but as FreeBSD is community-driven, there needs to be a consensus on what to do. This isn't a "boss decision" in some corporate hierarchy.

But I doubt this is the case, maybe it involves a lot of work. Maybe, there are also a lot of fanboys who will going to disagree of the change, not for technical reasons but for religious reasons as well, even though they do not belong to any religious sect.


In the distant past, Christianity has been considered a sect too. In my opinion, religious belief is something so personal and individual that it shouldn't dictate business decisions. Of course people don't just judge with their brain (even though sometimes they should), but also with their heart or stomach. This is fully natural, as the heart "in between" the mind and the hands, so you shouldn't buy a product which you don't feel comfortable with. Whatever makes you uncomfortable, be it a logo, a business strategy, the appearance of the company's CEO in public, or the connections a corporation has with governments and secret services - that should be considered. Of course big companies won't give up their important contracts with spying agencies and oppressive regimes just to please a few potential customers (or should I say "users" because their users often are the products, not the customers)...

But I consider FreeBSD a product made for the public to use. My point being is, you cannot just put a logo around your product without thinking of what your logo represents or tells about your product.


Tells whom, that is significant. For example, the swastika is a highly-negatively perceived symbol since WW2, but there are cultures where this symbol is noting negative, or to be more precise, is a positive symbol.

Context matters a lot.

People who are not "picky-christian" will possibly not feel offended. :-)

And I've found the FreeBSD mascot disturbing. Well, its okay with you since you do not belong to a group that cares about symbols.


Oh, I care about symbols a lot, when they are significant and influence people. Symbols aren't just graphical images, it's also words, gestures, even whole cultures that represent things, concepts, or companies. But I know when it's not worth caring about a symbol and trying to see something in it that actually isn't even there.

Word Oracle. They can predict of what the future holds in terms of technology and create a product around it, and there's nothing wrong with it, in contrast to the Demon holding a fork.


Oh, really? I think now you're leaving the path of logic, education, truth and common sense.

Oracle cannot predict the future any more or less a normal person can. They can even be criticized of collecting data they don't have the right to obtain and use it in their calculations to make up figures about the future. They control future demands by vendor lock-in, they control people's expectations by advertising.

See the word "oracle" in its initial meaning: a divination. Even in christian mythology, oracles refer to blessings toward people who deceive a divine revelation of god. Do you really assume Oracle managers and shareholders are addressed by god in that way?

Actually what I am saying is sometimes what we consider true is not always true as you've stated about the sun. What you consider in your _culture_ to be the absolute truth is not an absolute truth elsewhere.


There is no absolute truth, except maybe logic which is independent from individual opinions, preferences or imaginations.

In the FreeBSD circle, I agree that there is no such a thing as giving an importance to the logo, but this is not _always_ true outside of that circle.


I'm not sure that that the logo is void of importance. It's simply that many people receive the "message of the logo" as a friendly little helper (I won't even say daemon or ghost or whatnot) that serves you by keeping your systems running. It's attributed positive aspects.

You have to accept that. Try to suggest a Logo change in one of their mailing list, and let us see the feedback.


This discussion has been held on the mailing lists many times, as the archives show.

What is a demon by the way?


Ha, now we're getting to the interesting questions!

First of all, spelling matters. It's not a demon, it's a daemon. A daemon is usually understood as a lower deity that serves you. They are usually associated with nature or its forces, being benevolent, understanding and helpful, a guide or a messenger.

The daemon has been chosen as a mascot because daemons are important system processes of any UNIX system. They are even called daemons. Such processes exist in other systems too, but they're named differently, for example services or jobs.

The negative attribution of possession is something Christianity's superiors created. There is even "logic" in doing so: Things can't simply be abolished, they need to be replaced and reinterpreted, and to make people avoid them, it has to be something negative. This is what we see here, I assume.

You can find out more technical details here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(computing)

Regarding the BSD daemon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_Daemon

http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/daemon.html

It would be better to market a product with quality inside and out.


That would be the optimal solution that would make itself superfluous: A really good product doesn't need marketing, it will speak for itself. :-)

Regarding "hidden FreeBSD in products":

Then use GPL. I fail to see the connection.


That doesn't solve the problem that you could be using FreeBSD in your router or WLAN AP without knowing. That's a general problem of closed source products: You have no real way of finding out what's inside. Companies also steal open source code and put this in their products without following the rules of the GPL. The BSDL explicitely allows them to do this, that's why it's sometimes called a "rape me license".

Fact is that many parts of the BSDs (especially OpenBSD, but also FreeBSD) has made its way into other products, such as Mac OS X, storage products, firewalls and closed source server tools. The logo isn't shown anywhere, but people keep using it. In most cases, they don't even know.

Reply Parent Score: 3

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

In the distant past, Christianity has been considered a sect too. "That's correct.
In my opinion, religious belief is something so personal and individual that it shouldn't dictate business decisions. " You are absolutely wrong. Respecting competitors to your business and allowing them to thrive as well _may_ come from a religious person's personal beliefs, in the same way that loving your neighbor(a competitor in this case) is fundamental to his belief.
Of course people don't just judge with their brain(even though sometimes they should), but also with their heart or stomach. This is fully natural, as the heart "in between" the mind and the hands, so you shouldn't buy a product which you don't feel comfortable with. Whatever makes you uncomfortable, be it a logo, a business strategy, the appearance of the company's CEO in public, or the connections a corporation has with governments and secret services - that should be considered. Of course big companies won't give up their important contracts with spying agencies and oppressive regimes just to please a few potential customers (or should I say "users" because their users often are the products, not the customers)...
You touched on many subjects including religion which speaks and demands understanding in as much or more than a OS kernel. In this case, I made a specific statement that I am not comfortable with the logo. Period. FreeBSD is a good product especially it now supports ZFS, and FreeNAS being derived from it I will use in the future. It is not something about snooping or any of those subjects that requires time for me to respond to. Please make your argument stay on topic.

"But I consider FreeBSD a product made for the public to use. My point being is, you cannot just put a logo around your product without thinking of what your logo represents or tells about your product.


Tells whom, that is significant. For example, the swastika is a highly-negatively perceived symbol since WW2, but there are cultures where this symbol is noting negative, or to be more precise, is a positive symbol.
" Why use a swastika logo when everybody knows(even those same people who interpret it positively) as the symbol used by the Nazi? You are inviting trouble, making wasted arguments on defending, WHEN you are free to choose zillions of logos available. It doesn't make sense.

Context matters a lot.
People who are not "picky-christian" will possibly not feel offended. :-)
Yes, especially when we are talking about many subjects, including Christianity. Well, many non-Christians speak evil against Christians in an _OUT_ of context especially against the Bible. I've been in debates. There is no monopoly of knowledge as I said above about US/World/thing.

"And I've found the FreeBSD mascot disturbing. Well, its okay with you since you do not belong to a group that cares about symbols.


Oh, I care about symbols a lot,
"Fine for you.
when they are significant and influence people. Symbols aren't just graphical images, it's also words, gestures, even whole cultures that represent things, concepts, or companies. But I know when it's not worth caring about a symbol and trying to see something in it that actually isn't even there.
And you choose FreeBSD, and I choose all.

"Word Oracle. They can predict of what the future holds in terms of technology and create a product around it, and there's nothing wrong with it, in contrast to the Demon holding a fork.


Oh, really? I think now you're leaving the path of logic, education, truth and common sense.
"You know that there are research companies that predicts of what the future holds according to the recent trend of events, there is no divination or magic involve.

"Actually what I am saying is sometimes what we consider true is not always true as you've stated about the sun. What you consider in your _culture_ to be the absolute truth is not an absolute truth elsewhere.


There is no absolute truth,
" Self defeating nonsense. That statement alone claims an absolute truth that there is no absolute truth.

"In the FreeBSD circle, I agree that there is no such a thing as giving an importance to the logo, but this is not _always_ true outside of that circle.


I'm not sure that that the logo is void of importance. It's simply that many people receive the "message of the logo" as a friendly little helper (I won't even say daemon or ghost or whatnot) that serves you by keeping your systems running. It's attributed positive aspects.

You have to accept that. Try to suggest a Logo change in one of their mailing list, and let us see the feedback.


This discussion has been held on the mailing lists many times, as the archives show.
"
It speaks for itself the importance of the logo.

"What is a demon by the way?


Ha, now we're getting to the interesting questions!

First of all, spelling matters. It's not a demon, it's a daemon. A daemon is usually understood as a lower deity that serves you. They are usually associated with nature or its forces, being benevolent, understanding and helpful, a guide or a messenger.

The daemon has been chosen as a mascot because daemons are important system processes of any UNIX system. They are even called daemons. Such processes exist in other systems too, but they're named differently, for example services or jobs.

The negative attribution of possession is something Christianity's superiors created. There is even "logic" in doing so: Things can't simply be abolished, they need to be replaced and reinterpreted, and to make people avoid them, it has to be something negative. This is what we see here, I assume.

You can find out more technical details here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(computing)

Regarding the BSD daemon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_Daemon

http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/daemon.html
"
Thank you for the resources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon(classical_mythology)
We should learn more about Christianity's definition of wordly spirits.

"It would be better to market a product with quality inside and out.


That would be the optimal solution that would make itself superfluous: A really good product doesn't need marketing, it will speak for itself. :-)
" So we don't need to market anything and the use of logo or images must be important to anything else and not to operating systems especially FreeBSD. Really cool idea from you.

Reply Parent Score: 1

zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Fact is that many parts of the BSDs (especially OpenBSD, but also FreeBSD) has made its way into other products, such as Mac OS X, storage products, firewalls and closed source server tools. The logo isn't shown anywhere, but people keep using it. In most cases, they don't even know.

Also NetBSD, notably in Apple access points and backup appliances (and some other examples... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetBSD#Examples_of_use )

Reply Parent Score: 2