Linked by Rayiner Hashem on Tue 15th Nov 2005 17:44 UTC
Apple I recently bought one of the new dual core PowerMacs. Having used the machine for a couple of weeks, I thought I would share some of my observations and feelings about it. First, let me get my biases out in the open. I have, for about four years, very happily used Linux on my desktop. Doing so has made me very comfortable with the UNIX environment in general, and with GNOME specifically. During that time, I have used OS X machines on a regular basis, so I am quite comfortable in that environment as well. Since I switched to Linux, I have not used Windows for anything more than the occasional bit of software testing or lab work, and generally feel quite uncomfortable with it. Thus, this article is very much written from the perspective of someone who finds OS X and Linux pleasing on principle. I implore the reader to make his own value judgments based on my comments.
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Arun
Member since:
2005-07-07

If you read the article carefully you would realise he is not dissing the G5 CPU or MOBO. Those thing he liked. It was the excessive use of FANS, noisier HDD, Generic RAM, soft keyboard and mouse and acoustic design of the case.

I am sorry but hardware in a PC means the electronics first and fore most. Quality of the fans is subjective. The memory in my G5 is samsung, I'd hardly call that generic. Samsung is one of the leading supliers of memory chips.

Whereas the components in the X2, except for the motherboard were quality items handpicked by himself.

You hit the nail on the head. The operative words being "hand picked".

I don;t care if he likes or hates his G5. But the X2 he has is not a very superior peice of hardware because it has hand picked fans.

Since when did noise become a sole factor in determining HDD quailty. He did a massivle cpu benchmarks but failed to do any reasonable I/O benchmark. Why?

Here are the acoustic specs from WD's site for the WD2500JS.
Acoustics (average)
Idle Mode 28 dBA
Seek Mode 0 33dBA
Seek Mode 3 29 dBA

Here is the acoustic information from Seagate on the 7200.8
Acoustics
Idle (bels—sound power) ?2.8 / 28db
Quiet Seek (bels—sound power) ?3.2 / 32db
Performance Seek (bels—sound power) ?3.7 /37db

As you can see from the above specs the WD2500JS is quieter or as quiet as the seagate 7200.8 250 GB.

If Rayiner claims he can hear the difference he is lying. Human hearing isn't that sensitive.

I am only pointing out the parts of the review which are too filled with opinion to be taken seriously. Some are flat out false.

Reply Parent Score: 1

thebluesgnr Member since:
2005-11-14

"As you can see from the above specs the WD2500JS is quieter or as quiet as the seagate 7200.8 250 GB. "

You believe those specs, and you think they're comparable? Haha.

"If Rayiner claims he can hear the difference he is lying. Human hearing isn't that sensitive. "

Yes, he's lying. The point of this article was to lie about noise leves on Seagate and WD hd's. Right on.

Reply Parent Score: 1

rayiner Member since:
2005-07-06

I am sorry but hardware in a PC means the electronics first and fore most.

I thought Macs were about the whole package?

Quality of the fans is subjective.

Subjective does not mean incomparable. Evaluation subjective things just requires a good evaluation function, and an acceptance of the fact that the result is only as applicable as the original function. Conveniently, most people tend to perceive noises in the same way. In the context of fans, mechanical noises are perceived as more offensive than airflow noises. Smooth, consistent noises are perceived as less distracting than intermittent noises. Higher-pitched noises are considered more irritating than lower-pitched ones. By these objective measures, I can make a subjective judgement that the G5's fans are lower in quality than the Yate Loons in my X2.

The memory in my G5 is samsung, I'd hardly call that generic. Samsung is one of the leading supliers of memory chips.

Samsung supplies memory chips, they don't make DIMMs. Who made the DIMMs in the G5? Don't know? That's why they are called generic! FYI, most generic RAM uses name-brand chips (Infineon, Hynix, Micron, etc). It's the actual PCBs and surrounding circuitry that differentiates generic sticks from name-brand ones.

You hit the nail on the head. The operative words being "hand picked".

And the parts-list for the G5 was generated by a computer?

Since when did noise become a sole factor in determining HDD quality?

Since hard-drives in the same market category ceased to have interesting performance differences?

He did a massivle cpu benchmarks but failed to do any reasonable I/O benchmark. Why?

Let's look at a massive hard drive benchmark. From Tom's Hardware's Sept. 2005 Roundup: http://www.tomshardware.com/storage/20050927/hd_round_up-36.html

After throughly benchmarking 22 hard drives, you know what his conclusion was? "Current drives are fast drives". He further goes on to say: "And while performance differences from one drive generation to the next may be measurable, only in a few isolated cases do increases make a perceptible difference to users." If the performance difference between generations is negligible, what does that make the performance difference within a generation? You guessed it: immaterial!

[Immaterial Vendor Specs Clipped]

Now, let's consider the vendor specs. First, they don't matter. They are usually made up anyway. Second, even if they weren't made up, your data points don't prove anything. Mysteriously absent anywhere in that little clip are the distances at which the drives are measured. Sound power decreases with the inverse square of the distance. Therefore, something at 3m will be 1/9 as loud as the same thing at 1m. In terms of measurements, something 37db at 3m will be 28db at 1m. Therefore, without knowing the distances in question, you can't compare the two numbers at all.

If Rayiner claims he can hear the difference he is lying. Human hearing isn't that sensitive.

The Just Noticeable Difference (JND) of the human ear is a complex function, but for regular-volume noises, 1db is a decent figure. Therefore, the difference between 28db and 29db is noticeable, and the difference between 37db and 33db is very noticeable. Of course, it should be, since a 37db noise is well over twice as loud as a 33db noise!

Reply Parent Score: 1

Arun Member since:
2005-07-07

I thought Macs were about the whole package?

Yes they are but I was talking about hardware and the point I was responding to in the article, so were you. So please pay attention and stay on topic.


Samsung supplies memory chips, they don't make DIMMs. Who made the DIMMs in the G5? Don't know? That's why they are called generic! FYI, most generic RAM uses name-brand chips (Infineon, Hynix, Micron, etc). It's the actual PCBs and surrounding circuitry that differentiates generic sticks from name-brand ones.

Really, you must be blind and quite ignorant. The module on my G5 is
samsung m378t335cz3-cd5. 256mb pc2-4200u-444-12-c3. It even has a blue samsung logo on it and looks something like this

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.asp?Image=20-147-147-01.jpg...)%20%20Unbuffered%20System%20Memory%20Model%20 M378T2953CZ3-CD5

Newegg even sells samsung dimms.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?Submit=Suggested&Desc...

[Immaterial Vendor Specs Clipped]

Why because they prove you wrong? Convenient. Did you measure the noise levels of the two drives and get real data to counteract the published specs.

Now, let's consider the vendor specs. First, they don't matter. They are usually made up anyway.

Really and I should take your word for it. I have actually been to my companies anechoic chamber to measure the fan output levels for a workstation.

Second, even if they weren't made up, your data points don't prove anything. Mysteriously absent anywhere in that little clip are the distances at which the drives are measured.

Paranoid today aren't we. The measurements are verbatim what the manufacturer's claim. I converted the bels to decibels for the seagate.

Seagate:
http://www.seagate.com/docs/pdf/datasheet/disc/ds_barracuda7200.8.p...

Wdc:
http://wdc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wdc.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_f...

Sound power decreases with the inverse square of the distance. Therefore, something at 3m will be 1/9 as loud as the same thing at 1m. In terms of measurements, something 37db at 3m will be 28db at 1m. Therefore, without knowing the distances in question, you can't compare the two numbers at all.

But I should take your ears to be more accurate. Please!


The Just Noticeable Difference (JND) of the human ear is a complex function, but for regular-volume noises, 1db is a decent figure. Therefore, the difference between 28db and 29db is noticeable, and the difference between 37db and 33db is very noticeable. Of course, it should be, since a 37db noise is well over twice as loud as a 33db noise!

Yes a 3db difference should be noticeable but with other noises present it probably isn't much discernible. I can garauntee that in a double blind test you would fail to identify either drive by name.

Thanks for making my point. The seagate drive is the one rated at 37db at performance seek and the WD 32db so the seagate drive should be perceived as twice as loud as the WD. But you claimed the contrary indicating that your observation was biased and didn't perceive correctly.

BTW I have the EIDE version of the 7200.8 200GB in my tivo and it is just as loud the WD in my g5.

I did like the article and thought it was quite good but your biased opinions detracted from the quality. I know you want to defend your baby but please be reasonable.

Edited 2005-11-16 05:45

Reply Parent Score: 1

japail Member since:
2005-06-30

> Quality of the fans is subjective.
One can define what the 'quality' of a fan is then perform measurements to ascertain the quality of fan. Actually measuring fan quality is probably easier than measuring the quality of the system memory or capacitors for the typical reviewer.

> The memory in my G5 is samsung, I'd hardly call that
> generic. Samsung is one of the leading supliers of
> memory chips.

Samsung is a company, not a model of memory. They provide a large variety of modules, but they are not a premium performance brand. Mushkin, OCZ, and Corsair are premium brands (though they have 'value' models). Crucial isn't a premiun brand either, so it's not a big improvement.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820147147
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820146426

Tell me which of these is "premium" and which of these is "generic." Don't even look at the price, the cost isn't the important aspect.

Reply Parent Score: 1