Linked by Rayiner Hashem on Tue 15th Nov 2005 17:44 UTC
Apple I recently bought one of the new dual core PowerMacs. Having used the machine for a couple of weeks, I thought I would share some of my observations and feelings about it. First, let me get my biases out in the open. I have, for about four years, very happily used Linux on my desktop. Doing so has made me very comfortable with the UNIX environment in general, and with GNOME specifically. During that time, I have used OS X machines on a regular basis, so I am quite comfortable in that environment as well. Since I switched to Linux, I have not used Windows for anything more than the occasional bit of software testing or lab work, and generally feel quite uncomfortable with it. Thus, this article is very much written from the perspective of someone who finds OS X and Linux pleasing on principle. I implore the reader to make his own value judgments based on my comments.
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japail
Member since:
2005-06-30

> What is the value add?? The fancy heatspeader and the
> Corsair name???

Tested memory that is certified for aggressive timings, bandwidth, dual-channel configurations, and the quality of the circuitry of the modules. These are the highest-quality are resilient batches of memory supplied with guarantees of performance. And this isn't just a matter of Corsair, it's a matter of premium memory. Which doesn't exist for you, outside of the uniform-quality ECC DIMMs that you don't mind replacing just as long as they detect they're pieces of crap before they go.

> Yes I do. What is a premium ECC memory Brand? Corsair
> doesn't even make ECC memory and they only have
> buffered DDR1 DIMMs. I am curious what is "premium
> ECC memory"

OCZ does provide ECC memory, so does Mushkin.
If you understand how ECC memory works you know that ECC memory quality is as variable as any other DRAM, and that the error correction is only useful for correcting one-bit errors and does nothing to ensure the quality of the memory. Premium ECC memory will be from the better bins, have quality circuitry, and all of the niceties associate with selectiveness.

> Your definition of generic is flawed at best.

My definition of generic applied directly to what I said. Though your continued allusion to BMWs (now I'm certain you're an Apple zealot, btw) is certainly comparable to the DRAM industry.

> Please tell me what the technical difference is
> between a Corsair DIMM and a Samsung DIMM with the
> same memory chips. Why would you need a heat spreader
> on slower clocked DIMMS?

What do you mean the same memory chips? Do you mean identical memory chips put through no different sorting with no different circuitry? What would be the difference in that? Hey, what's the difference between 3.6GHz and a 3.4GHz Xeon? Did you ever get around to that whole GPU discussion?

> I wonder why Corsair's Valueselect line has no timing
> information or heatspreaders on them. Is the value
> select line from Corsair still considered premium
> memory according to you?

No. Why would it? Don't tell me, despite that I told you that these brands have value models hours ago, you've just now discovered them. To think, you only need to Google everything someone says to construct a half-assed response.


> BTW you were claiming crucial was a premium brand,
> till I told you that crucial sells the same OEM
> micron sticks and adds a crucial label. Wonder why?

And I quote me:

"Samsung is a company, not a model of memory. They provide a large variety of modules, but they are not a premium performance brand. Mushkin, OCZ, and Corsair are premium brands (though they have 'value' models). Crucial isn't a premiun brand either, so it's not a big improvement."

"Crucial for example is Micron memory with a different brand name to set it apart as "quality." Keep in mind that there are only a few DDR/DDR2 manufacturers in world. In picking Hynix, Samsung, or Micron branded memory you're picking from the ass-end of the spectrum."

Hey, maybe you can repeat me some more and lie about what I've said. Quality, that.

You can pick your designation from (1) illiterate (2) stupid (3) troll that's wasted my time.

Edited 2005-11-16 19:18

Reply Parent Score: 1

Arun Member since:
2005-07-07

Tested memory that is certified for aggressive timings, bandwidth, dual-channel configurations, and the quality of the circuitry of the modules. These are the highest-quality are resilient batches of memory supplied with guarantees of performance.

All this means what exactly at 4-4-4-12 timings? Absolutely nothing!! So no value add. On rayiner's G5 a cl 3-3-3-8 memory isn't better or more reliable. You can pretend all you want but the memory that comes with the G5 is Good not some cheap generic no name brand as you and Rayiner seem to suggest.

OCZ does provide ECC memory, so does Mushkin.

They have no DDR2 533Mhz ECC memory in thier catalog. Hmmm.. the G5 needs one of those. Let me see. Corsair, Mushkin and OCZ have none. Premium indeed. They are hobbist gaming enthusiast brands. Not serious companies making serious products for the entire computing industry.

If you think top end computing is an X2 or pentium Dxxx with OCZ or corsair or mucskin DIMMS. I have bad news for you about Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.

If you understand how ECC memory works you know that ECC memory quality is as variable as any other DRAM, and that the error correction is only useful for correcting one-bit errors and does nothing to ensure the quality of the memory. Premium ECC memory will be from the better bins, have quality circuitry, and all of the niceties associate with selectiveness.

Really. You can do multi-bit correction with ECC and chip kill. Sun's recently announced UltraSPARC T1's memory controller supports quad error correct and octal error detect ECC and chipkill.

According to me that is top-end computing. Not Corsair, OCZ and mushkin in a gaming PC.

No. Why would it? Don't tell me, despite that I told you that these brands have value models hours ago, you've just now discovered them. To think, you only need to Google everything someone says to construct a half-assed response.

No I knew they had a value brand. I bought mushkin DIMMS before remmember. I was looking a t corsair the orher day. But is thier value brand any better than the samsung DIMM? No google query will answer an opinion I thought you would provide. Now answer the question.

"Crucial for example is Micron memory with a different brand name to set it apart as "quality." Keep in mind that there are only a few DDR/DDR2 manufacturers in world. In picking Hynix, Samsung, or Micron branded memory you're picking from the ass-end of the spectrum."

Hey, maybe you can repeat me some more and lie about what I've said. Quality, that.


Scroll down in that link and take a look at the picture of the Crucial DIMM. That is exactly like the DIMM I got from crucial for my G5.

http://www.short-media.com/printcontent.php?print=r&id=290

What value or "quality" is that extra curcial sticker adding to the micron DIMM. Nothing? Only naive idiots like you think a subsidiary or spin off means quality somehow.

You can pick your designation from (1) illiterate (2) stupid (3) troll that's wasted my time.

Or Smarter and less gullible than you and you don't want to admit it.

Edited 2005-11-16 19:58

Reply Parent Score: 1

rayiner Member since:
2005-07-06

You can pretend all you want but the memory that comes with the G5 is Good not some cheap generic no name brand as you and Rayiner seem to suggest.

The only part in the Mac that I suggested was cheap was the Western Digital. I did so because when I bought the X2's drives, the 2500JD was running in a completely different price bracket from the Maxtor and Seagate 250GB drives I was considering. This is because it was previous-generation technology (older platter designs, etc). For the rest of the parts, I simply suggested that they were nothing you wouldn't find in a Dell. You've done nothing but prove that. Dell doesn't use no-name parts in their computers. They use cheap, often generic, but decent parts. My last Dell tower came with Micron RAM, for example.

The whole point of the exercise was to debunk the idea that Apple uses particularly high-quality parts in their machines. The underlying implication, of course, is also that these parts cost more, justifying the price premium of Apple computers. All you've done is debunk these claims with your insistence that quality fans don't matter, or quality RAM doesn't matter. Maybe they don't. That doesn't change the fact that Apple machines use the same parts Dell machines do.

Reply Parent Score: 1

japail Member since:
2005-06-30

> All this means what exactly at 4-4-4-12 timings?
> Absolutely nothing!!

The constraints of the processor don't change the status of the brand, which is the whole point of this. The RAM shipped in the PowerMac isn't 'premium' memory, it's just common OEM memory. Do you think I'm suggesting Apple pay $50+ more for memory? No. The cost doesn't match the benefit.

> On rayiner's G5 a cl 3-3-3-8 memory isn't better or
> more reliable.

Well reliability is another matter. It isn't any faster when used there. ECC memory isn't useful at all in his X2 configuration.

> G5 is Good not some cheap generic no name brand as
> you and Rayiner seem to suggest.

It's cheap mediocre memory. It isn't nameless as Rayiner suggested, but I don't really care about what Rayiner suggested. That precisely why I quoted "generic" and provided an appropriate meaning.

> They have no DDR2 533Mhz ECC memory in thier catalog.

I didn't say that they did. I said that they had ECC memory, though they're essentially in a different market segment.

> Not serious companies making serious products for the
> entire computing industry.

Your good friend BMW makes a lot of budget cars. The entire computing industry isn't desktop computers. In fact the computing industry at large doesn't consist of 'premium' products. No aggregate does. That's not premium, that's average. What does your watch need with 800MHz DDR2?

> If you think top end computing is an X2 or pentium
> Dxxx with OCZ or corsair or mucskin DIMMS. I have bad
> news for you about Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.

HPC has nothing to do with this discussion. That's not even remotely the same market. Buying high-performance desktop memory for anything that require reliability is retarded. Though the processor concern is a little amusing. Multicore Xeons and Opterons will fill far more slots on the Top500 than the PowerMac will.

> Really. You can do multi-bit correction with ECC and
> chip kill. Sun's recently announced UltraSPARC T1's
> memory controller supports quad error correct and
> octal error detect ECC and chipkill.

If you want to pay in latency, cost, and space you can implement all sorts of codes. I'm not sure what that matters to the discussion of the G5 and the Athlon64, since they don't.

> No I knew they had a value brand. I bought mushkin
> DIMMS before remmember.

I think I've been clear-enough about what I've stated that precludes the lack of any process improvements from producing superior products. I think I've been perfectly clear from the onset that 1) You shouldn't compare brands you should compare models 2) If you're going to compare brands, then the brands considered "premium" are not Samsung, Micron, et al 3) The reason they're considered premium are previously outlined

> What value or "quality" is that extra curcial sticker
> adding to the micron DIMM. Nothing? Only naive idiots
> like you think a subsidiary or spin off means quality
> somehow.

None. Crucial isn't a premium brand. The "quality" is solely in Micron shedding its name (as a good supplier in your opinion) for sales. I specifically stated that it wasn't a premium brand. I really hate repeating myself, and I don't like you repeating what I say as if it's original.


> Or Smarter and less gullible than you and you don't
> want to admit it.

I have have a total of 4GB of Kingmax memory (I bet you can't guess who provides the DRAM for those spectacular modules) and probably another 8GB in assorted brands. I don't buy premium memory because it's not important to me. If you think you're smarter than all the more power to you, but given your ignorance, your inability to focus, your reliance on Google queries to make silly comments that don't make any sense in this discussion, your lack of knowledge of this subject, I don't know what you're basing that on. It must be your Sennhisers.

Edited 2005-11-16 20:55

Reply Parent Score: 1