“Apple Computer plans to serve up a new iMac model with a larger flat-panel display during next week’s Macworld Expo trade show, according to sources. The upgrade to a 17-inch liquid crystal display (LCD) comes as sales have all but stalled on existing 15-inch flat-panel iMacs.” Read the report at ZDNews.Our Take: Let’s hope that the new 17″ LCD will
a) be able to do 1280×1024
b) feature an LCD with better quality than the really bad one the current 15″ iMac has.
A few months ago, Apple made a big deal about their “upgrade” of the iBooks with a 14.1 TFT LCD, additionally to the 12.1″ one, but the resolution stayed the same: 1024×768. Which is something that is (possibly) valuable only to people who can’t see very well (however the quality of the LCDs for iBooks and PowerBooks is already very good, in contrast to the ones used for the iMacs), plus, it does not offer a single benefit to the rest of the users (in fact, it makes the iBook bigger, heavier and it requires more power). Therefore, I hope this time they do it right and they upgrade the resolution as well as the screen size.
Well, here I am being flamebait again. Call me crazy for thinking names matter, but .Mac is a stupid name. It’d be a good thing to do if, say, .NET were a good name, but it’s not.
I tend to think people don’t want to pay extra money for features they don’t understand. It’s my belief that web services will, in general, flop.
I will become another flamebait, but apple will never get out of their small percentage of users. They market things to people who are either below Joe Shmoe or high above. iMac with all those marketing tricks is for below, and the expensive power mac is for the high above. The low quality iMac and the ripoff power mac show it too well.
Apple is too afraid to make a jump to the bigger market. they are afraid to lose their existing market share and they are also afraid that they will be outcompeted by wintel. during this jump the below-shmoe will find using macs too hard and they will go away and the high-above-shmoe will feel betrayed. Apple just seems afraid to take risks.
Joe Shmoe and the Computer Science / IT pros will continue using x86 with windows and/or unix clones while apple is stuck with the “others”.
>>Apple is too afraid to make a jump to the bigger market. they are afraid to lose their existing market share and they are also afraid that they will be outcompeted by wintel. during this jump the below-shmoe will find using macs too hard and they will go away and the high-above-shmoe will feel betrayed. Apple just seems afraid to take risks.<<
You’re way off the mark… how do you think Apple has gotten itself where it is at today?… they took a risk with what they are doing now while the other guys (the PC makers) have been stuck in standardized hell and are afraid to do anything innovative, helk I wont even buy a PC if it’s still using floppy drives, PS/2, Serial and Parallel ports and I have no choice of an operating system with my purchase!
Apple has also increased its marketshare in both the US and the UK (though I could careless about marketshare as well as other Mac users). As long as Microsoft cannot be trusted and Linux can’t rid itself of chaos, Apple will keep on shining along with its overly dedicated userbase!
> how do you think Apple has gotten itself where it is at today?
Dennis: I wonder that myself. Back in the day, Apple had 12% of the market. Today it has less than 3%.
Anonymous: Really, please use a synopsis instead of …
It really helps us replying and make the discussion easier to read.
It was bad enough when everyone started calling their products XP this and XP that (com’on… Athlon XP?) now the dot whatever is the next trend. I liked Apple because they didn’t resemble Microsoft. In my eyes, .Mac is a step backwards in trying to impress me.
Oh yeah, the topic here is flat panel monitors. I like that the new iMacs have this nice light-weight display, everything is in one nice neat package. But integrated displays may not be for everyone because it’s a little more difficult to replace in case of damage, and you can’t swap it for something better when you have the $$. But all this looks good to me. Go Apple.
>>Today it has less than 3%<<
The last time I checked they were sitting at about 3.8% and rising… it’s nothing great, but then again Dell has the biggest percentage at 13.8%, but then the no-name PC makers have at least 50% of the rest, so the other PC makers are not doing much better!
>Anonymous: Really, please use a synopsis instead of …
>It really helps us replying and make the discussion easier to read.
I’m sorry, I’m not a native english speaker.
I’ll try to make my “flamebaits” much more readable in the future
>>I liked Apple because they didn’t resemble Microsoft. In my eyes, .Mac is a step backwards in trying to impress me.<<
Yeah I am also not impressed with this “.Mac” rebranding… it’s a “.NET” copycat in my eyes! Oh well I guess Apple’s marketing folks know best?!
This PC sales slump must really be hurting Apple. As the article mentioned, Apple has rarely ever used special promotions and they’ve had three going at the same time recently and a brand new one now. I think in the computer “big picture”, it is important that there be a healthy Apple.
Whether it increases sales or not, a 17″ flat panel iMac will be very cool.
If Apple can keep the price resonably low, they should do well.
There is just something about the OS X UI that I just don’t like. While the browser and other features are very nice, I just don’t like the package as a whole for some reason. So, while I like the hardware, I won’t buy a new iMac anytime soon.
ciao
yc
“Worldwide, Apple is in ninth place with a 2.4 percent market share.”
http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0207/03.marketshare.php
Quite frankly, I’d much rather see an iMac without a monitor, but with a DVI connector instead. Let me plug in the LCD panel of my choice.
The current 15″ is very low quality and I can’t see Apple putting a high quality display on the iMac without majorly jacking up the price.
All in all, a 17″ iMac is a snooze bar event. I still don’t want to pay big bucks for PC100 SODIMM memory, lousy performance, and non-existent upgradability.
#m
Yes, the “a bit less than 3%” I said comes from IDC’s report for last October. Now, that 2.4% shows that Apple is losing market share instead of gaining any new users. Sad.
What’s wrong with the current LCD? I haven’t done that much testing, but what exactly makes the current LCD lower quality than others?
The fonts are TERRIBLE. The overall quality of the current iMac’s LCD is below par.
The current LCD is not as sharp, bright, or as clear as your better standalone 15″ LCD panels. To hit the price points they wanted to hit, Apple had to skimp on the LCD quality.
There is no technical reason for Apple not to make a simple headless iMac. The economic reason which keeps Apple from doing so is that even if they dropped the 15″ screen, they couldn’t give that big of a price break.
If Apple could offer a low-end Mac with a user-selectable display, it would drive sales of low-end Macs to developers and enthusiasts rather than the current crop of PC-losers that Apple seems to be targeting.
#m
>>The fonts are TERRIBLE. The overall quality of the current iMac’s LCD is below par.<<
I personally think the new iMac LCD display is great… it is more crisp than my old iMac G3!
More flamebait…
I wanted to see what all the Mac fuss was about. I see
these Apple adds on TV all of the time now, and they
tell the story about how Joe Blow does not want to be
stuck in a “Windows” world. They mention that you can
just put all of your files into the Mac and they are all
going to open up.
Basically, I was surprised about alot of things on the
MACs. I looked mainly at the Power Macs, because I can’t
see buying the iMac for lack of power and upgradeability.
This list is what I was most surprised about:
1. Sticker Shock. $3999 for a high end MAC, I think that
I would rather own a loaded Dell, running XP and comming
with Microsoft Office. The MAC had a dual processor
PowerPC @ 1.0 Ghz. They got to be joking with these
prices, basically a good Mac is unattainable for me, just
poor I guess or do I not really want to drop that kinda
cash on something that will be obsolete in two years (yes
it will be).
2. Poor financing. Apple does have financing for the MACS
since the price is so high, but the percentage rate can
exceed 19% according to the Apple sales guy.
3. The sales guy was knowlegeable but talked to me like
I did not know anything about computers until I started
typing Unix commands into the Mac OS X command prompt.
I was surprised that the sales guy was telling me buzz-words
at that point and noticed that some of the stuff he was
saying about Mac vrs Windows was not true. The Apple
sales guy told me that no Windows version has symmetric
multiprocessing, which I know has been around since
Win NT 4.0.
4. Useability is not as good as claimed. That damn
one-button mouse, cheap keyboard and Aqua desktop. My
finger kept trying to hit a second button on the mouse
that was not there! The keyboard looks like it will
shatter in a million pieces if it slides off the desk.
The Aqua desktop as I saw it was sucky because the
normal “File Edit View…” Menus were at the top
of the screen and not in the open Window. The menus
at the top of the screen change depending on which
window is active, which is very confusing and a throw
back to old Mac design. It seems like every action
done on the Mac takes more movement because of a lack
of a right mouse button. Looks like you will have to
spend even more on a third-party two button mouse and
keyboard.
5. Upgrade path. Once your Mac gets old, you have to
get a third party upgrade to try to enhance it. There
are no motherboard swaps with these babys.
6. The Virtual PC emulation used to run Windows apps is
pathetically slow under OS X. No games running under
this environment. This piece of software is another must
purchase, considering there are alot of key software
pieces that I run now that are only available in Windows
versions. More money for this software.
7. No Microsoft Office? You have to buy this too? Damn
for the amount of cash spend on the hardware, at least
they could bundle Office with it. I did not believe
this but that is what the Apple sales guy claims.
8. The MAC emphasizes many features that Joe Six Pack
does not give a crap about. These include FireWire
with Apples Video Editing Software. Yeah that is neat, but
not only do you need this expensive computer for video
editing, you need a digital camcorder that cost some
bucks as well. I think this feature is for a select
few artists and add agencies that can put it to use.
Can’t you do this with a PC and FireWire? Of course you
can. As for MP3 software and DVD burning, a PC can
do this no sweat either, and in a cheaper and more
compatible way. The DVD+RW is much more compatible than
the DVD-RW Apple uses.
9. PCI Ports that can only be used with PCI cards that
have MAC firmware. This means that you have a standard
bus that only runs cards designed for the MAC. What is
the point besides using standard PCI components in a MAC.
How about either making the MAC work with more PC cards
or using a faster bus on the MAC.
10. What is wrong with having the old standards like
RS-232 and parallel ports, along with the newer USB
and FireWire ports? There are still alot of uses
for the old ports, especially when interfacing the
computer with old equipment and machine controls.
Synopsis, after spending a load of cash, you have a
quirky computer with a limited upgrade path, that
works well for the time being, has a limited amount
of software that runs on it and has features that
the average Joe might not use.
What Apple should lighten up a little with the Mac. I mean
everyone knows the days where the hardware actually counted
are gone (poor Amiga). What Apple should do:
1. The clones were a nice idea. More Mac clones mean more
users, more hardware and software. If not cloning, than
Apple should start producing ATX style MAC motherboards.
2. This will happen when pigs fly, but MAC OS X for Intel
would be a super idea, and a fast way to get the platform
alot of users. Many people want to try something other
than Windows. Linux really still is not ready, but the
MAC OS could be the next best desktop solution.
3. Try to improve financing percentage rates and bring the
price down on the Macs. Allow the iMac2s to work with
external monitors. Make package deals where you get
a break on the monitor price, and throw in a two-button
mouse dammit!
Flame Away,
Dano!
>>The DVD+RW is much more compatible than
the DVD-RW Apple uses.<<
Actually you got that backwards… DVD-RW is 95% compatible with home DVD players whereas DVD+RW is only about 70% compatible, that is why Apple (and I believe Compaq, among others) are pushing this standard!
>>This will happen when pigs fly, but MAC OS X for Intel
would be a super idea, and a fast way to get the platform
alot of users. Many people want to try something other
than Windows. Linux really still is not ready, but the
MAC OS could be the next best desktop solution.<<
This crazy idea would be the suicidal death of Apple and its userbase! I would probably opt for Sun hardware/software myself if Apple went under, helk maybe even go Amiga for the fun of it 🙂
> 3. Try to improve financing percentage rates and bring the
> price down on the Macs. Allow the iMac2s to work with
> external monitors. Make package deals where you get
> a break on the monitor price, and throw in a two-button
> mouse dammit!
I applied for Apple financing just to see what they had to offer (curiosity) as I have a really high credit rating. They turned me down because I “didn’t have enough credit sources”. Apparently I don’t have enough credit cards or loans for them to approve. That is really stupid.
Last month I was planning on buying a Powerbook G4 sometime in the near future. Now with all these recent Apple news stories, I am starting to sway away from the idea. I really don’t want to buy a Powerbook G4 just to eventually run Linux on it.
The fonts are TERRIBLE. The overall quality of the current iMac’s LCD is below par.
Excuse me? Since when did the font rendering of the OS determine the crispness of the screen? I’m actually typing on one right now. Now I’ve gotten used to the Quartz text rendering which is what I’m assumign you mean, which I will admit is not the kind of antialiasing I’m used to. (It’s prettier than most but not always as readable at smaller fonts, unlike BeOS’s which is readable at all sizes just about.) But this is why you have controls to adjust it (and Jaguar is said to have even more precise controls for just that). Even then, I haven’t had any complaints with this LCD screen other than the relatively low max resoloution. Looking at this screen is just wonderful, especially after checking the lane filled with them at BestBuy. It’s disortion from the sides is very minimal (although from bellow or above it goes kinda fast, but that’s much less of a concern that the sides), and with the neck you can adjust it to any confortable angle. I don’t see how it’s a sub-par screen at all.
> Excuse me? Since when did the font rendering of the OS determine the crispness of the screen?
NeoWolf: Oh, please. I saw more than one iMacs, next to the Apple Display Cinemas and next to the iBook and PowerBooks. ALL the other LCDs are LOVELY. The iMacs’ one, is below par. It is not just the fonts. It is everything! It is just not of good quality. The rest of the Apple products that feature LCDs are fine. But not the iMac one.
Dano: Please do not even think post another comment that does not use all the screen space available for your comment resulting in a long difficult to read comment.
While some people feel like this poster, “There is just something about the OS X UI that I just don’t like. While the browser and other features are very nice, I just don’t like the package as a whole for some reason. So, while I like the hardware, I won’t buy a new iMac anytime soon.”, I am exactly the opposite.
I think OSX is the coolest desktop to have ever been created. It is almost enough to make me switch from using PCs to Apple. Almost.
The main problem I have with Apple is with the hardware. It’s too static and cannot be upgraded. In spite of that, if the iMac (or eMac even) were around $700.00 dollars, I would seriously consider it, but when I can buy two decent PCs for $500.00 each, I really have a hard time buying into one Apple for over a thousand.
Apple is too overpriced. For example, I can buy a 512MB DDR ECC RAM chip for $181.00, A non ECC 512 DDR chip for $90.00 and a 512MB SDRAM chip for around $60.00. So, Apple charging $225.00 for a 512MB SDRAM chip is just a little bit ridiculous.
“Sticker Shock. $3999 for a high end MAC, I think that
I would rather own a loaded Dell, running XP and comming
with Microsoft Office.”
Yeah, but don’t forget .. you’re trying to compare a BMW to a Ford Pinto …. oh, uhhh …. something like that
Hey, have you heard the big news on how Apple is innovating now? Forget desk lapms – I hear next year’s iMac models are going to be in the shape of dildos!
Mac clones would be nice to bring the price down, but the fact remains that Apple is a rather profitable company, and the bulk of that profit comes from the hardware. Chances are we won’t see this anytime soon, same reason goes for not letting users upgrade.
Mac OS X on an Intel also would be nice, Apple needs to get out of bed with Motorola and get a real DDR motherboard solution with a chip that can get up to 2 gig. No reason why this hasn’t happened, but Apple needs to protect its hardware, so I doubt Mac OS X will ever come to intel. All of a sudden, no one would need a mac to run Final Cut Pro.
I definitely agree with the 3rd point the most. Sure Mac makes most of its money off hardware, but I think there is some room to play here. 4000$ bucks for a dual gig is a lot of money, too much even for a Mac.
I think the Mac is targeted at people with disposable income who tend toward the creative type (based on the design and the cost). These people probably could afford a digital camera and a few extras. Personally I think getting rid of the old ports isn’t such a bad idea, why not make things easier for Joe Schmoe by making everything USB and firewire, which seems to be able to configure itself?
I don’t know, I love my Mac, but I definitely feel like I got ripped off a bit. I would really like to be able to buy new motherboard/processor packages som I could upgrade without buying the whole Mac. Hell, I would gladly pay a little too much just so Apple could keep its margins, but I don’t like having to buy a whole new computer. Wonder what other suprises will come out of the New York expo?
>>Apple is too overpriced. For example, I can buy a 512MB DDR ECC RAM chip for $181.00, A non ECC 512 DDR chip for $90.00 and a 512MB SDRAM chip for around $60.00. So, Apple charging $225.00 for a 512MB SDRAM chip is just a little bit ridiculous.<<
That is why it is best to buy the Mac with the RAM that comes installed then buy the extra RAM from somewhere else and install it yourself. I would never buy the extra RAM from Apple because of that!
> you’re trying to compare a BMW to a Ford Pinto
Give us a break, with those ridiculous car assosiations. I mean, really.
I think Darius was being sarcastic as usual?!
It a…um Jeep versus a Hummer…hehheh…Ok Eugenia, I will learn to allow the type to roll over to the next line.
Dano.
Actually, Apple has a pretty wide range of computers. You can get an “old fashioned” 15″ iMac for $999, you can get a G4 “17” eMac for $1100. And the current flat panel iMac is, what…$1300, depending on options?
All of these include iTunes, iMovie. And iPhoto for OS X and iDVD if you have the Super Drive on the flat panel iMac. Standards like Firewire and USB 2 mean *speed* Joe User is buying digital cameras and camcorders by the millions and these iApps are specifically tailored to be easy to use. And use them people do. Digital pictures and editing your own digital movies have swept the world. And, it is one of the reasons Apple has been rolling in profits since they brought Jobs back. Rolling in profits until, it appears, until this sales slump. I love to use all OS’s as they all have things to offer. But, the Mac is still the easiest to learn for the entry level user.
As for MS Office, Apple has niche markets. 95% of people who use Macs have no need of MS Office – the bundled AppleWorks is just right for them. Come to think of it, I think I saw that there is supposed to be some news about AppleWorks at the MacWorld Expo coming up in a few days. Hopefully, there will be all kinds of news that Eugenia can post for us.
You can order an eMac with a SuperDrive from a third-party, here is the link…
http://www.zettabytesolutions.com/press.html
At least that gives some flex to a budget!
I was just thinking, there’s another thing about Apple hardware – I have no stats on this, but there is less turnover with Apple than with PC’s (although that may not be the case so much now with companies like Dell and Gateway, etc.). I used to think it was because Apple used superior compnents…and I’m sure that’s true in many cases if you look at the whole history of personal computers. But, at some point I realized alot of it had to do with the hardware being totally proprietary. We have an original 128k Mac here at home. It’s seventeen or eighteen years old and still works like it did when it was new. We use it too – my wife and I use it to leave messages to each other. Everywhere you go in Mac circles, you see old Macs still being used. It’s amazing. On eBay, Mac Color Classics are really a hot item. These run like an old 386 PC and people are bidding on them like crazy. With a 12″ screen. LOL, when you have a company that makes its own hardware and software, it becomes an entity unto itself.
9. PCI Ports that can only be used with PCI cards that
have MAC firmware. This means that you have a standard
bus that only runs cards designed for the MAC. What is
the point besides using standard PCI components in a MAC.
How about either making the MAC work with more PC cards
or using a faster bus on the MAC.
False you can use card built for SUN’s hardware. Apple , and sun uses an Open Standard called OpenFirmware ( http://playground.sun.com/1275/ ). Basically it works like that : When you boot the machine up (be it a Mac or be it a SUN), the cpu starts a Forth interpreter( http://www.forth.org/ ) , which will read the machine’s NVRAM to find the boot disk and the boot loader. Open Firmware also scans the buses (beit PCI, SBUS etc …) and initializes all the cards found using some forth code that lies on the card’s ROM. Once initialised those cards are available to the bootloader.
So let’s say I’m a manufacturer, I I create a card for a SUN or an Apple I can use the same ROM, I just need to write drivers for the OS. This also means that If I buy a card for my mac today, and in the future Apple changes its CPU line to say mips, then my card will still be useable on such powered machine.
The only drawback is : there’s no IA-32 motherboard manufacturer that uses a dual Boot MB with both a “classic bios” and a OF two ….
I plan to buy an iBook in the next weeks, but don’t know if I should buy the one with 12,1″ or 14,1″ as the max resolution stays the same. Are 12,1″ enough or is the bigger screen worth the increase in $ and size ?
…helk I wont even buy a PC if it’s still using floppy drives, PS/2, Serial and Parallel ports and I have no choice of an operating system with my purchase!
I wonder, when buying a Mac, do the sales representatives give you a choice of their OS and the competitor’s or do they bundle Mac OS? The correct answer the is the later, in which your last complain isn’t vaild. Besides, I could find plenty of computers that come without the legacy ports, but I opt not to buy it (think cheaper hardware).
As long as Microsoft cannot be trusted and Linux can’t rid itself of chaos, Apple will keep on shining along with its overly dedicated userbase!
Note for the first half of this year, Linux market share in the desktop are increased more than Mac OS market share.
Dennis: I wonder that myself. Back in the day, Apple had 12% of the market. Today it has less than 3%.
It has lost of a lot of market before Jobs was kicked out, and was kicked out for that reason. But with the outster of Jobs, the company gradually lost more and more market share. When Jobs came back, the market share had increased. It has BTW 3.83% of US market share (2.8% for the world).
In my eyes, .Mac is a step backwards in trying to impress me.
They are trying to impress the mainstream, not the anti-MS gang.
The last time I checked they were sitting at about 3.8% and rising…
That is US’s market share. Apple had done practically nothing to capture emerging markets in East Asia (China), South East Asia and South Asia (India). It has 2.4% of world market.
What’s wrong with the current LCD? I haven’t done that much testing, but what exactly makes the current LCD lower quality than others?
For example, if you view the screen from a sharp angle from the left and right, the images would be discoloured, like older LCD screens. The refresh rate is quite low compared to Samsung and Sony. Personally, the best image quality I found is with Sony.
4. Useability is not as good as claimed. That damn
one-button mouse, cheap keyboard
Most Dells come with terrible mouse and keyboards, and just like PCs, you could replace them for a third party one. With more than one mouse button too.
Actually you got that backwards… DVD-RW is 95% compatible with home DVD players whereas DVD+RW is only about 70% compatible, that is why Apple (and I believe Compaq, among others) are pushing this standard!
But I believe by 2004 and after 2004, most home DVD players would be supporting DVD+RW mainly because DVD+RW is supported by Microsoft (would be supported in Longhorn).
Excuse me? Since when did the font rendering of the OS determine the crispness of the screen?…
She was refering to the LCD screen, not the OS. I have to agree with Eugenia, I find the PowerBook’s LCD screen much better (in terms of crispness) than the iMac’s. Never tried the newest iBook though.
I think OSX is the coolest desktop to have ever been created. It is almost enough to make me switch from using PCs to Apple. Almost.
Well, for me, I absolutely hate (okay, not hate as in extreme hate) Aqua. And I wouldn’t buy that expensive hardware
Yeah, but don’t forget .. you’re trying to compare a BMW to a Ford Pinto …. oh, uhhh …. something like that
I didn’t know a Ford had more features than the BMW…
Actually, Apple has a pretty wide range of computers. You can get an “old fashioned” 15″ iMac for $999, you can get a G4 “17” eMac for $1100. And the current flat panel iMac is, what…$1300, depending on options?
The last I checked the iMac G4 came at US$1400 and above. Also, I could get a better deal with other PC OEMs (even with all-in-one boxes). The old fashion iMac is terribly overpriced, BTW.
All of these include iTunes, iMovie. And iPhoto for OS X and iDVD if you have the Super Drive on the flat panel iMac…
Contrary to popular believes, DVD rewritable drives (either DVD-RW or DVD+RW) are available for PCs. Also, for iTunes there is Winamp. And so on. Sure, they don’t get bundled with the computer, but if the consumer is really intested is such things, he would get a third party app.
As for MS Office, Apple has niche markets. 95% of people who use Macs have no need of MS Office – the bundled AppleWorks is just right for them.
And the AppleWorks is nothing superior to MS Works, bundled on a lot of PCs.
I plan to buy an iBook in the next weeks, but don’t know if I should buy the one with 12,1″ or 14,1″ as the max resolution stays the same. Are 12,1″ enough or is the bigger screen worth the increase in $ and size ?
What are you using it for? Go to a Apple Store or a Mac dealer, try out both. Personally, I would go for the 12″ one as it fits my backpack.
Apple has done some great marketing. They actually have people believing that Mac computers are easier to use than a Windows machine. And cheaper to own over the life of the machine.
Well, other than a report on TCO that Gartner of Australia would not stand behind for publication, Apple has no data verifying these claims. Nothing. There are no usability studies showing the Apple’s hodge podge UI is easier to use than Windows’ hodge podge UI. Prettier? Perhaps, yet beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
PC’s have so dramatically outsold Apple’s computers, the vote is clearly in. 98% of computer users clearly don’t want what Apple has to offer. The majority of people find Windows and Linux easy enough to use. And as you can buy almost two PC’s for the price of a Mac, there obviously is no truth to the “Mac’s are cheaper” hype. Again, we find Apple relying on “soft data” such as “usability” to shore up its TCO numbers. Gartner withdrew mighty fast when Apple of Australia started quoting a report Apple had paid Gartner to write. There is no real data.
So what about that 2%? Apple seems to be selling computers to the “me too” crowd. Meaning you’ve either got “me too stupid” to use a PC (so you get an expensive low end Mac instead) or you’ve got “me too smart” to use a PC (so you get an even more expensive high-end Mac). The “me too” market seems pretty small to me. Attacking 98% of the computer owners out there seems like another “dare to be stupid” act on the part of Apple.
So for a 17″ iMac, all I can ask is “Why?”. The Mac world needs affordable machines, not integrated machines. The iMac sold because it was cheap, not because it was one piece. A little iCube + your choice external monitor would have revolutionized the Mac marketplace. Too bad Apple is too greedy to do that.
Today, any sort of iCube would be fantastic, especially if it included a couple slots. A modern day version of an Apple ][. Today, Apple has no entry level expandable Mac. And the only machine that Apple makes that works with DVI is their titanium laptop.
Apple does have a great OS. The market is looking for alternatives today, especially with Microsoft’s Palladium push. Apple has to make the OS more accessible to have a chance of staying alive. This will require delivering much more value to the computer buyer, either through licensing the OS or making the hardware better/faster/cheaper. The market is waiting. Will Apple seize this opportunity or squander it?
#m
Actually it all depends on what you use the iBook for regarding battery life. I have a 14″ one and a coworker uses the 12″ model. In general use, my battery ends up lasting longer than his does.
DVI, the acronym for digital video interface, is a necessity if you want to get 1080i video from the new generation of high-definition satellite receivers coming this fall. Sony is releasing this month, the first of their rear projection televisions featuring the DVI interface.
So not only do we have almost all new LCD panels available via DVI, but also some CRT monitors, more and more projectors, and now, satellite TV and home video systems.
In a nutshell, everything is DVI.
One can buy an adapter to go from ADC to DVI. But why create this extra complexity? Beyond making every customer who wants to use normal equipment spend more money, creating a special connector makes it much more costly to create video cards for Mac computers. So the bulk of video cards are never ported to the Mac.
For instance, the PC had shipping high end Geforce 4 Ti 4600 cards for 3-4+ months before Apple shipped theirs. On the PC there are numerous vendors for every chipset, providing many options.
Why don’t we see the Quadro4 on the Mac, for instance? Or Wildcat? The Mac misses out on lots of great technology and consumer choices because of yet another “fuck the customer” decision. As usual, Apple is doing much more harm than good by using proprietary hardware interfaces.
Do any of the Apple fanatics out there know how to effectively send “suggestions” to Apple? What works? Or is Apple wandering around in the haze of their jar-jar binks monobutton monoculture and impossible to communicate with? What’s the scoop on Apple & customer input?
#m
Just a few months ago we were told that skyrocketing LCD prices were driving the iMac price up. Now they are going to increase the screen to a more expensive format. How much more are they going to charge. As the article said, if they tack on more than a couple hundred, this is going to be DOA. Furthermore, if they push out the current high-end iMac–the only desktop Mac truly worth it’s cost, then I think they are going to be shooting themselves in the foot again. In the mean time, they have to get their tower models out of the stratosphere.
I don’t like the idea of these computer/software vendors maintaining they keys to my universe. The concept of a huge central repository of consumer data, both financial and statistical, is scary and appalling. This area of the internet is completely unregulated. Before government laws are available to protect consumer privacy, these areas of the internet should not be used. Using .BS as an online credit card replacement opens up the door for some scary corporate tactics. The bottom line is that every major company, including Apple, has shown they have no scruples when it comes to pimping their databases out to the highest bidder. I don’t want to have every search I’ve ever executed, every book I’ve ever bought and other such information archived by any of these companies to be available to telemarketers and other money grubbing entities.
Some may see this as a reactionary stance, but I consider it a prudent one. Corporate morality is practically a contradiction in terms. Without government enforcable laws against the distribution of this data, I refuse to use these services, and intentionally avoid companies who promote them.
With Apple’s latest business practices falling in line with Microsoft’s and other malicious corporations’, I may have to abandon the platform that I have just recently come back to.
Hello guys,
those of you who know the numbers (market shares) and are able to analyze them. This is my humble opinion about the future of Apple market share. If you speak about the market share WORLDWIDE, then there’s no way for Apple to increase it.
NO
WAY.
market share can grow nowadays only because of fast computerization in developing countries. This means that cheap hardware and free software will rise their market shares. Well, thanks to BSA, Micosoft will also benefit from lots of piracy software finally licensed…
Think about what those percentages really mean, nothing!
Every 5yrs the total PC market changes dramatically.
Back in 84-86 period, PC penetration was still quite low even in US, & basically close to 0 in most of the world. Apple % was at it’s peak when it was a huge deal that there was even 1M Macs & about 5-10M PCs running Dos so Apple at one time had about maybe 20% of an easy pickings market. I remember that time quite well as I was quite happy to be a Mac developer on the vastly superior machine (linear address space 68K v clunky 286 640K etc).
Fastforward nearly 20yrs, & Apple is below %3 and goin down fast. Does it mean Apple is failing, NO. It means Apple has saturated it’s particular share of the market types, the fairly affluent US/EU, artistic, Mac nerdy types who can afford the Apple brand HW.
What has really happenned is that PCs have become truely affordeable to another 1B people who absoluteley never would or could have bought a Mac. And now that market is saturated also, so prices must keep falling & Apple is at a big disadvantage. I suspect a big part of the 1B PCs are 3rd world, pirated Windows, below par slow machines so that market never had any real $ value, but it sure depresses Apples % nos.
20yrs ago, Apple HW & SW were both vastly better than anything in the PC world. Today, only the SW is some better, the HW is perhaps better styled but no faster, not better, but more expensive. The Mac market still tries to sell addons devices for top $ too.
Anyway, I agree with most of the previous comments about going x86, headless etc, but that won’t happen.
Re: Apple and mythology
Right on the mark.
Same old, same old.
There has got to be some soft of Eliza type program out there that spits out the same old tired Apple FUD boilerplate hooked up to a web spider that scourers the net for Apple news stories and posts this garbage.
You’re right – the “old fashioned” 15″ iMacs are overpriced, especially with the emergence of the eMac, which is sensational. I wonder…after MacWorld, if those old iMacs will get dumped for good.
Michael, in the Dock on OS X, there is a direct link to send feedback to Apple. Whatever the reasons may be, you have to realize that the people who use Macs love them. Also, it is Steve Job’s objective to be the Sony of the USA. Everything he does is aimed to that goal. If you view Apple’s actions from that point of view, the things they do make more sense – lol, if any sense can be made at all.
>>The DVD+RW is much more compatible than
the DVD-RW Apple uses.<<
>>Actually you got that backwards… DVD-RW is 95% compatible with home DVD players whereas DVD+RW is only about 70% compatible, that is why Apple (and I believe Compaq, among others) are pushing this standard!
Not according to many Magazines such as Linux Sources, etc. DVD+RW is suppost to work with like 95% of the old players already out there.
>>This will happen when pigs fly, but MAC OS X for Intel
would be a super idea, and a fast way to get the platform
alot of users. Many people want to try something other
than Windows. Linux really still is not ready, but the
MAC OS could be the next best desktop solution.<<
>>This crazy idea would be the suicidal death of Apple and its userbase! I would probably opt for Sun hardware/software myself if Apple went under, helk maybe even go Amiga for the fun of it 🙂
Crazy Idea huh? Well you don’t make a computer popular by making it quirky and expensive. You have to raise people on a platform in order to grow it. The best way that history tells us is to make a cheap option available for kids to learn as they are growing up. I think the PC has this area covered. Just for this reason Intel hardware will keep on rollin…
I am also kinda shocked to hear how Apple sales people still tell people that Intel hardware is “flawed”. I was wondering exactly what does this mean and if the AMD Hammer and other 64 bit designs are also “flawed”. Is the Hammer flawed because it can run legacy software? This seems like the best way to migrate to 64 bit…
Dano
>>I wonder, when buying a Mac, do the sales representatives give you a choice of their OS and the competitor’s or do they bundle Mac OS?<<
Well if you want to get technical, Apple is shipping both Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X with their Macs, some people (like my good friend and colleague who is also a Mac freak) doesn’t like Mac OS X much and prefer OS 9, I like both, so it’s not a bother of which one I use, though I use OS X 99% of the time! Apple is in a different position than Microsoft… Apple delivers both the hardware/software (as you already know) whereas Microsoft doesn’t so alternatives should be available like they were 20 years ago, of course we are now seeing Linux being an option with IBM and I think HP now in some cases, so maybe my point is flawed?!
Anyhow… I kinda don’t sweat Microsoft anymore since I do like MS Office v. X and that I am a full time Mac user though my profession does revolve around the likes of Solaris, Linux and Windows… I can’t complain to be honest since I get a good taste of all three environments 🙂
There are already “Hello Kitty”-Dildos out there – why would I wanna get a Mac-one..?!
poiti, the iBooks – yes, if I was a backpacking person, I’d go for the 12″. The 14″ is more in the alleged “desktop replacement” catagory.
>I plan to buy an iBook in the next weeks, but don’t know if I should buy the one with 12,1″ or 14,1
Buy the 12.1 model available. If you do not have a huge problem with your eyes, DEFINATELY get the 12.1 and not the 14.1. The 14.1 is the same as the 12.1, but it is more expensive, bigger, heavier and consumes more battery.
If you need a combo CD-RW/DVD drive, get the second 12.1 available at http://store.apple.com
If you just need a CD-ROM, get the simple model, the one with $1,199.
In ANY CASE, make sure you upgrade to AT LEAST 256 MB of RAM.
If I were you, I would wait for the MacWorld and see if they will have any new models. Macworld is only in one week from now.
That is why it is best to buy the Mac with the RAM that comes installed then buy the extra RAM from somewhere else and install it yourself. I would never buy the extra RAM from Apple because of that!
I realize this is possible. My point is that if the extra memory at Apple.com is over 150% overpriced, what is the markup on just the base system?
If they would lower their prices a bit, I think they would be able to sell a lot more machines.
Actually it all depends on what you use the iBook for regarding battery life. I have a 14″ one and a coworker uses the 12″ model. In general use, my battery ends up lasting longer than his does.
I do believe that one of the other benefits of the 14″ model is that it actually does use a bigger battery..
>>I realize this is possible. My point is that if the extra memory at Apple.com is over 150% overpriced, what is the markup on just the base system?
If they would lower their prices a bit, I think they would be able to sell a lot more machines.<<
I totally agree with you, that is why I don’t fall for Apple’s overpricing of those components and I just get them myself later.
Everyday post an article about the Apple this and that and just let the STUPID, MORONIC, and DUMB, people argue about which one is better than the other.
Then run a new site for people like me who really care about how these machines (PC or Mac) will help me in my everyday life and then allow me to go out and see the SUN!
There is just something about the OS X UI that I just don’t like. While the browser and other features are very nice, I just don’t like the package as a whole for some reason. So, while I like the hardware, I won’t buy a new iMac anytime soon.
———–
I know what it is. It’s the stupid horizontal lines throughout the whole UI. And the “true” images instead of representations of them. It’s gotta be!
Well, it is for me, anyway. Awful UI.
Ok, Dano makes some good points, but…
Usability: You are used to Windows. You really are. It takes TIME to get adjusted to Aqua. The only reason some Unix desktops are “easier” is because they copy Windows.
to kreechah: The stripes are weird, aren’t they? Not too bad for me, just weird.
DVI is a good thing. ADC was a stopgap solution. Apple is supposedly offering their own conversion cable. Let’s hope ADC goes byebye. I’d love to see Matrox Parhelia cards in new Macs.
Ten million compliments to the person who brought up Open Firmware, the IEEE processor independent STANDARD that noone else SEEMS to use.
Ten million more compliments to the poster who referred to Apple’s lack of growth in developing countries. If/when those countries develop a strong middle and upper economic class, then Apple’s efforts will be successful. OR they could come out with the super-cheap Mac. The cMac? The eMac is a step in the right direction, though. I may get one
—JM
Are LCD displays significantly better than a regular flat screen? 15″ is a *tiny* screen, and 17″ isn’t much better. Unless the picture is really much clearer… I am used to a 19″ screen and wouldn’t want anything smaller than that.
Looking at a new Dell flier that came in the mail: Upgrading to a 19″ flat screen monitor (model M992) adds $190 to the price. Upgrading to a 19″ Trinitron costs $220, and those have Great pictures. Does LCD provide a better picture than a Trinitron? Is there a 19″ flat screen monitor upgrade option on the iMac for $200?
ADC doesn’t suck. It _IS_ DVI + USB + Power. And it’s actually an IBM thing that Apple borrowed, not a proprietary type of Apple dealio.
It _is_ DVI. Dumbasses
>>Ok, Dano makes some good points, but…
>>Usability: You are used to Windows. You really are. It takes TIME to get adjusted to Aqua. The only reason some Unix desktops are “easier” is because they copy Windows.
I definitely am used to Windows, but I don’t understand why you have to move your mouse all over the desktop just because it doesn’t have a second mouse button for extended functions. Also why do you have to move all over the desktop because the pulldown menus are at the top of the screen instead of being in the windows, where they are closer?
>>Ten million compliments to the person who brought up Open Firmware, the IEEE processor independent STANDARD that noone else SEEMS to use.
I was in the IEEE, and there were alot of standards that the IEEE established that no one used. Not sure how good an Open Firmware standard is if only a few architectures use it. Does anyone know the IEEE standard number this architecture falls under?
>>Ten million more compliments to the poster who referred to Apple’s lack of growth in developing countries. If/when those countries develop a strong middle and upper economic class, then Apple’s efforts will be successful. OR they could come out with the super-cheap Mac. The cMac? The eMac is a step in the right direction, though. I may get one
Linux will be the “third-world standard” in the next 5 years. The system is very capable, is basically free, can run on old hardware, and is open for study. Also, pirated copies of Windows will also prevail in the 3rd world. Even Microsoft is happy that at least the third world is pirating Windows instead of other systems! You can get alot done with Linux at a low cost, hell I’m even typing this in Mandrake.
Well, im rambling here…
Dano.
<<I definitely am used to Windows, but I don’t understand why you have to move your mouse all over the desktop just because it doesn’t have a second mouse button for extended functions.>>
The OS supports multi-button mice very well. That was the first thing that I bought when I got my new Mac. I tried to make it with a single-button mouse but it was just less convienent. They *need* to offer a two-button mouse optional *free* replacement for the single-button mouse.
<<Also why do you have to move all over the desktop because the pulldown menus are at the top of the screen instead of being in the windows, where they are closer? >>
I thought it was a bunch of BS about it being easier to have the menu bar at the top of the screen consistently, but I actually do find it to be more convienent there. I never have to worry about the menu being obscured, or changing into multiple lines when the window is shrunk down. This is probably a personal preference issue again though.
Well if you want to get technical, Apple is shipping both Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X with their Macs, some people (like my good friend and colleague who is also a Mac freak) doesn’t like Mac OS X much and prefer OS 9, I like both, so it’s not a bother of which one I use, though I use OS X 99% of the time!
This is quite different from the PC market where sourgrapes like Be Inc. are complaining they can’t get OEM deals because of Microsoft. OS 9 was there for legacy compatiblity and a convinience for those not ready to migrate to a new OS (you do need OS 9 to use Classic in OS X, right?).
Apple is in a different position than Microsoft… Apple delivers both the hardware/software (as you already know) whereas Microsoft doesn’t so alternatives should be available like they were 20 years ago, of course we are now seeing Linux being an option with IBM and I think HP now in some cases, so maybe my point is flawed?!
Just like Intel has a right make sure OEMs only bundle their processor or the other instead of both, and Nvidia has the right to make sure OEMs don’t bundle ATI stuff with their GPU in new machines, Microsoft do have the right to make sure their OS, if bundled, is the only OS on the machine. It is just like in McDonalds where mainstream Meat Producer A can say for the Big Macs, they can only use their meat alone, while small timer Meat Producer B cannot complain that Meat Producer A is being anti competitive…
Anyhow… I kinda don’t sweat Microsoft anymore since I do like MS Office v. X …
Enjoy Office while you can.
poiti, the iBooks – yes, if I was a backpacking person, I’d go for the 12″. The 14″ is more in the alleged “desktop replacement” catagory.
The specs doesn’t seem that way… oh wait, it is a Mac.
Actually it all depends on what you use the iBook for regarding battery life. I have a 14″ one and a coworker uses the 12″ model. In general use, my battery ends up lasting longer than his does.
But if you two do the same thing, your battery would run out first.
Usability: You are used to Windows. You really are. It takes TIME to get adjusted to Aqua. The only reason some Unix desktops are “easier” is because they copy Windows.
My KDE desktop doesn’t at all look like Windows at all. In fact in KDE 3.1, there is no similarities in between. And thats the most used desktop. GNOME, second most used, by default, doesn’t have anything that looks like Windows. And most of the other desktops/ WMs (like XFce, Flux, BB, E) doesn’t at all look like Windows.
DVI is a good thing. ADC was a stopgap solution. Apple is supposedly offering their own conversion cable. Let’s hope ADC goes byebye. I’d love to see Matrox Parhelia cards in new Macs.
They are already expensive with GeForce 4 MX, imagine with a card that cost $400. Oh, I’m afraid to imagine the price..
Ten million more compliments to the poster who referred to Apple’s lack of growth in developing countries. If/when those countries develop a strong middle and upper economic class, then Apple’s efforts will be successful. OR they could come out with the super-cheap Mac. The cMac? The eMac is a step in the right direction, though. I may get one
It is quite impossible to make a strong middle and upper class in places like China (communist rule) and India (caste system). Besides, the computer sales there are coming from the middle class and the upper class- the lower class are too poor to even afford electricity. It is not that the target audience at these countries can’t afford Macs, it is that Apple never bother to let them know there is such a thing as a Mac.
Are LCD displays significantly better than a regular flat screen? 15″ is a *tiny* screen, and 17″ isn’t much better. Unless the picture is really much clearer… I am used to a 19″ screen and wouldn’t want anything smaller than that.
A 17″ LCD is about the size of a 19″ CRT.
I definitely am used to Windows, but I don’t understand why you have to move your mouse all over the desktop just because it doesn’t have a second mouse button for extended functions.
Get a multi button USB mouse for goodness sake! Mac OS 9 and X supports them. Heck, for certain apps like Maya, it is a requirement.
Also why do you have to move all over the desktop because the pulldown menus are at the top of the screen instead of being in the windows, where they are closer?
This is a case of personal preferences. You are used to Windows’ UI, and therefore find it hard to use a UI so alien to you. Give it some time, you would be used to it. Besides, it has been years since I open a menu with a mouse (the Alt button is there).
>>I definitely am used to Windows, but I don’t understand why you have to move your mouse all over the desktop just because it doesn’t have a second mouse button for extended functions.<<
That is why you either:
1- use the control-click for the contexual menu option (like Windows)
2- go out and buy a 2 button mouse for your Mac.
3- know your keyboard shortcuts… I just had a friend come visit me from the US and he works for Microstrategy, so he is around Windows 40+ hours a week. He (like myself) uses a lot of keyboard shortcuts because that is what we are use to. Take Solaris (using CDE) for example… its contextual menu is not convenient, so I use mostly use keyboard shortcuts, though Solaris does support 3 button mice and you can use the middle button to copy and paste in most situations, but when I code, I use the keyboard shortcuts and have adapted this to Solaris, Windows, Linux and Mac!
“Also why do you have to move all over the desktop because the pulldown menus are at the top of the screen instead of being in the windows, where they are closer?
”
There is an option in OS X to customize exactly that.
You can can put anything you want on every window.
Very nice indeed.
Dano:
Open Firmware is IEEE 1275 (most recent revision was in 1994 I think). It is nice and architecture independent, BUT it requires implementing the Forth programming language. This was likely too much work for not enough reward for most PC vendors, especially considering many of them don’t care about the world outside IA-32.
You know what? I agree with you about Linux and pirated Windows catching on in third world countries (and many that are “in-between”). Many of them aren’t using the most current hardware anyway, and likely will NOT give a flying **** about Palladium. And let’s not forget Openoffice-dot-org being free and completely not sucking (might need more translations into odd dialects, though). On the other hand, I’d like to see Apple reach out a lot more to the super-cheap markets.
Me, Myself, and I:
Ok, ADC is clever. But history shows us that being clever and innovative does NOT win you acceptance (*cough*BeOS*cough*). Apple sells a nifty $149 adapter that lets you connect any of Apple’s REALLY NICE displays to a standard DVI video card and lets you keep the USB functionality. This of course, assumes that the video card has an Open Firmware BIOS and Mac drivers. Unfortunately, it is $149 and sold separately. I think Apple should just include it with new computers as a courtesy. Either way, I hope this at least encourages video card makers to move to the Mac.
–JM
ADC doesn’t suck. It _IS_ DVI + USB + Power. And it’s actually an IBM thing that Apple borrowed, not a proprietary type of Apple dealio.
It _is_ DVI. Dumbasses
An ADC connector may contain DVI signals, but it is not a DVI connector. You may notice that Apple charges $149 for a DVI to ADC converter. That $150 goes quite a ways to getting you a good video card instead of blowing it on a converter.
To build a Mac video card that fits in the Apple world, the video maker would have to put an ADC connector on their video card instead of a DVI connector. Not only does that cost more money, it requires a separate design, manufacturing, testing, etc. It all adds to time, money, and hassle.
So the manufacturer would end up with the Apple video card being non-standard compared to all the other video cards the manufacturer is already making with DVI outputs.
Did the customer need a non-standard display? No. Did they an integrated power cable? No. Did they need a non-standard video card? No. Did they need to pay more for their monitor? No. Did they need to wait for a new video card to come out on their proprietary platform? No.
What does the customer get out all this? Fucked.
There is no good reason that ADC exists. It forces vendor lock-in, higher prices, and lower availability all for the sake of eliminating a cable or two.
Apple used to use DVI… until they realized people were buying non-Apple monitors to save money (and get better monitors). Instead of coming out with a good monitor at a good price, they designed ADC instead, forcing Apple customers into lower choice and higher prices.
Just another one of the many reasons why Apple’s market share decreases every year.
#m
Another mac hater who is wasting a hellova lotta energy on the hate vibe.
I didn’t know realism was now called hate. Is that part of “think different” … 😉
#m
Call constant strong negativism whatever you want.
It’s the same MO ‘speed’ has and you’re taking the torch from him.
Realism? Heh.
I told a guy once I thought Bela Fleck was a great musician.
He asked, what does he play? Banjo,I said.
Banjo? Banjos suck, he can’t be a great musician.
Theres an analogy there (sorta) in regards to some folks opinions on macs.
I’ve used Apple computers for TWENTY YEARS. I’m not a stranger to this world. I’ve used PC’s for 15 years. I’ve had an Amiga 1000, a NEC CP/M machine, a Vector CP/M machine, VAX 11/780, and many flavors of *NIX workstations. Even played with a Stardent Titan for a bit.
Why do I have what you call negativity towards Apple? Because the company warrants it, that’s why. Because I can be a Mac user and not be a starry eyed Mac fanatic. Because I have perspective.
For the Mac user who doesn’t have any perspective, it’s difficult to understand. If Apple and Apple customers refuse to listen to anything but “we love Mac. we’ll pay anything for Mac”, they will be not be long for this world. And at 2.4% global market share and shrinking every day, this very well may turn out to be the case.
There is a part of me that really likes what Apple is doing with Mac OS X. But to see how the company started out as “capable and expandable computers for normal people” with Woz involved and became “closed system computers for rich and stupid wannabe computer users” with Jobs at the helm, well, part of me is disgusted by this.
Back in the Apple ][ days, the company paid less attention to what exact shade of white the case was, but paid much more attention to having things like SLOTS on the base machine.
My approach is not to let Apple gently slide into the annals of history but to shout out “HEY, WAKE UP AND FUCKING DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT”.
Perhaps that is the bottom line:
DO SOMETHING different vs. THINK different.
#m
>> I’ve used Apple computers for TWENTY YEARS. I’m not a stranger to this world. I’ve used PC’s for 15 years. I’ve had an Amiga 1000, a NEC CP/M machine, a Vector CP/M machine, VAX 11/780, and many flavors of *NIX workstations. Even played with a Stardent Titan for a bit.
Wow, you must be at least as old as I.
>>Why do I have what you call negativity towards Apple? Because the company warrants it, that’s why. Because I can be a Mac user and not be a starry eyed Mac fanatic. Because I have perspective.
I second the motion!
>>For the Mac user who doesn’t have any perspective, it’s difficult to understand. If Apple and Apple customers refuse to listen to anything but “we love Mac. we’ll pay anything for Mac”, they will be not be long for this world. And at 2.4% global market share and shrinking every day, this very well may turn out to be the case.
The only reason why MAC is being thought about now is because of all the commercials they are running on TV with the “Former Systems Admins, Programers, Artists and Writers”. Kinda makes me laugh but the actors on the commercials just look like a bunch of PC losers. How can a programmer just decide to switch platforms all of the sudden, and also decide to program for a platform that only has 3% of the market?
>>There is a part of me that really likes what Apple is doing with Mac OS X. But to see how the company started out as “capable and expandable computers for normal people” with Woz involved and became “closed system computers for rich and stupid wannabe computer users” with Jobs at the helm, well, part of me is disgusted by this. Back in the Apple ][ days, the company paid less attention to what exact shade of white the case was, but paid much more attention to having things like SLOTS on the base machine.
Yeah, but Woz actually had the talent, and kept Job’s attitudes at bay. Woz did more with less and looked for ways to make the computer affordable without getting exotic and complex. Apple took the Apple II to the limit with the Apple II GS, but could have even went further with the platform if it wanted to. Had Woz even been allowed to work on the early Macs or Lisas?
>>My approach is not to let Apple gently slide into the annals of history but to shout out “HEY, WAKE UP AND FUCKING DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT”.
Perhaps that is the bottom line:
DO SOMETHING different vs. THINK different.
I think that Apple should keep their image as a high-end company, but should make products that work with defacto standards, many of which are set by the PC. Do something that does not have so many proprietary features, yet continue on with the MAC OS.
Dano.
” The only reason why MAC is being thought about now is because of all the commercials they are running on TV with the “Former Systems Admins, Programers, Artists an…..”
etc.etc.
The only reason? Heh.
Mac OS X.
” think that Apple should keep their image as a high-end company, but should make products that work with defacto standards, many of which are set by the PC.”
Dan with an O, my O my, please do a lil learnin.
——–I have perspective also, M with a #.
I and many others are not the Mac zealots you and others try to stereotype to further your arguements against the Mac platform.
If you only use one platform, think one platform is the best for everything, cannot rationally analyze the platform, etc, etc… well, that seems like zealotry to me. One platform to fool them all.
I haven’t heard ONE idea from the Mac fanatics on how to make Mac computers more accessible to more users. Woz used to focus on this. Whereas Woz created the “US Festival”, Jobs would likely create the “ME Indoctrination”.
It really strikes me as “Well, if more people had Macs, I would lose my status. If you don’t have a Mac, well, tough shit.”
There is a lot of wisdom in what Dano has to say. Declining market share is the mark of a company and a culture that does not listen.
Why is it so hard for a Mac owner to say, “Yeah, we fucked up.”
As for standards and where they came from:
PCI PC
AGP PC
100MhzSDRAM PC
133MhzSDRAM PC
DDR RAM PC
USB PC
GigE PC
101/104 keybd PC
CDRW PC
NVIDIA PC
ATI PC
ADC Apple / PC (DVI came from PC)
Firewire Apple
ShitSound Apple (referring to current sound)
1 but mouse Apple
Outside of Firewire, Apple has innovated nothing of value. Everything of worth has come from the PC.
And because Apple spends so little money on real hardware technology and so much money on “what shade of white plastic does Jobs like best?”, you find quite expectedly that that Mac delivers poor value for your hardware dollar.
If Apple wants more cult members, they need to charge less for entry tickets.
#m
>>If you only use one platform, think one platform is the best for everything, cannot rationally analyze the platform, etc, etc… well, that seems like zealotry to me. One platform to fool them all.
Very True. I have seen more computer platforms in the
past than you can shake a stick at.
>>I haven’t heard ONE idea from the Mac fanatics on how to make Mac computers more accessible to more users. Woz used to focus on this. Whereas Woz created the “US Festival”, Jobs would likely create the “ME Indoctrination”.
This is because many MAC addicts want to protect the idea that the reason they spend so much on their computer is because it is believed to be technically better than what everyone else uses (PCs). Its a superiority complex. What strikes me as interesting as how dramatic the MAC platform has changed over the years versus the incremental steps taken by the PC.
>>It really strikes me as “Well, if more people had Macs, I would lose my status. If you don’t have a Mac, well, tough shit.”
Wierd concept but probably true. The ability of Apple to tell everyone that their method is the “true way” to compute makes me kinda chuckle.
>>There is a lot of wisdom in what Dano has to say. Declining market share is the mark of a company and a culture that does not listen.
You flatter me, but they don’t listed because they believe that they can re-ignite a revolution or something.
>>Why is it so hard for a Mac owner to say, “Yeah, we fucked up.”
I don’t think that MACs are as bad as you believe, as you still can get alot of work done with Macs.
>>As for standards and where they came from:
etc…
Actually, many of these “standards” arrived on the PC first, some came from standards bodies and others from people in the industry that needed to solve some problems (Intel and Microsoft). I mean, even FireWire came from a standards body. Its just that Apple uses “standards” that no one else in the PC industry has the time or will to implement
You can easily by a cheap FireWire card for your PC.
>>And because Apple spends so little money on real hardware technology and so much money on “what shade of white plastic does Jobs like best?”, you find quite expectedly that that Mac delivers poor value for your hardware dollar.
I am not sure this is true…they actually ate up alot of engineering time on the new iMac…just to fit it into a half-sphere case…so perhaps you are right in one respect, that they are wasting time on bullshit cosmetics and not new hardware designs…this is debateable also though. I just think that all of the cosmetics of the Macs make them actually less useable. We already talked about the lame keyboard and mouse…but can you do a motherboard swap in a G4 tower? Forget-a-bout-it. Harkens back to the Amiga days when you had to add a bunch of third party upgrades because early Amiga models had their own expansion port and case designs. It was not until the 4000 till Amiga figured out that working with PC style cases were not so bad, even if they had thier own expansion ports…remember Zorro? Mac could use this same strategy to make an every-day working man’s MAC. They could hire me and ill get the job done
>>If Apple wants more cult members, they need to charge less for entry tickets.
My point exactly. I would like to have one to try out, but after my experience at the MAC store, I decided to buy some upgrades for my current PC…which is turning out to have most every part upgraded in the past year or so…its fun!
Dano!
wow.
What a load of bullshit opinions.
How would M with a # know what platforms I use at work and at home.
Stereotype to suit your opinion.
There is a lot of negativity and hateful vibes coming from your posts.
Yeah, macs sux.
PC’s rulez.
boulderdash.
macs are on the brink of exinction.
Hurragh!
I hate the mac so I’m glad they suck and they’re goin out of business.
My PC is so much better.
macs are waay too expensive,for me so they suck.
Macs are too pretty for me.
Apple is dying , I will use stats to back that up.
coloured computers? blasphemy!
max sux!
No innovation, ripped off from Unix.
PC rules, max drulez.
I luvs me PC.
I hates the mac, buncha fag mac users.
Every magazine, even Time Canada, has involved articles on how much time and money it cost Apple to fit the iMac in the little mushroom case. And how they had gone through a different design before the mushroom and then decided to scrap it and start with the new Jobs vision.
Apple could have come out with a cool rounded corner iCube similar to a Shuttle SS40G (but with AGP). This machine could have an upgradeable motherboard, an AGP slot, a couple PCI slots, space for 1 or 2 IDE drives, space for a 5.25″ optical drive (Superdrive, CDRW, DVDROM, whatever), and a ZIP drive (or floppy or flash/memorystick/smartdisk reader). It would have gotten to market much faster than the iMac and been cheaper. And because it was expandable and upgradeable, would have broadened the user base. Oh yeah, and it could have included a video card with a DVI port so the buyer would have more choice of LCD monitors.
Sounds in many ways like a modern day, Apple ][ — an entry level expandable upgradable machine.
You can’t get too many PC users to switch to an entry-level platform that is not expandable and not upgradeable. And since Apple had to pay all the PC users to switch anyway, the whole ad/concept is just a stupid “think different” lie anyway.
Hey, 2.4% global share and shrinking has got to create some pain. The question is whether or not Apple really feels enough pain to abandon some of their sacred cows — like making the customer buy the most expensive Mac just to get a damn PCI slot or AGP graphics card or space to put another IDE drive. The Linux crowd likes PC hardware because it is cheap and flexible. Without comparable hardware, Apple will find it more difficult to convince the UNIX programmer community to switch to OS X.
I’ve had a Mac and I currently use Mac’s at work. There’s nothing quite like having all those dead-end iMacs. I’d love to upgrade the video, the processor, get Firewire on some of them, etc. But, nope, that’s not allowed. You’ve got to purchase a whole new computer. Oh yeah, the colors. I’d love to have a basic tan computer made out of METAL these days. The Mac puts out an amazing level of RFI. My cell phone doesn’t even ring if it is too close to my Mac.
And, Willem, thanks for your words. It takes a while for the true nature of a Mac zealot to come out, but it always comes out. You sound like a spoiled 14 year old rich kid whose special toy has been insulted. Sorry, kid, the truth hurts sometimes.
#m
A really now, entry level? i’ll need to add that to the above.
Paid switch?
Again, add that to above.
You’re pretty funny for a PC zealot!
(I know Liza R. from the switch ad– paid ? she’s a sound consultant for mov’s, and a DJ for KCRW, etc.
Her cred is so above your anti mac hatred it is humerous)
it’s like saying Dicky Betts uses a Gibson so he’s a sham.
I like a world where there is more choice than MS.
Period.
M with a #,
I use a variety of platforms at home and work for your info.I also use a variety of vehicles, drums , keyboards, surfboards, skis,sunglasses, TV’s, etc.etc.
I do object to your obvious hatred for the mac. because a lot of yor neg vibe is bouloderdash.
Reminds me of the ‘Calvin peeing on a ford’ bumpersticker.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/view2002-07-12rl.html
If I’ve owned a Mac and used Mac computers since they came out and have a different opinion than “Mac is great”, why do you keep trying to categorize my analysis as hatred? I suppose it’s some drug in your coolaid or is it the years of monobutton mouse usage that resulted in monotrack mind?
From the news —
Windows “Switchers” Were Solicited, Paid
It turns out that Apple’s latest ad campaign, in which former Windows users explain why they moved to the Mac, is less than honest. Contrary to comments made by CEO Steve Jobs last week, Apple solicited the ex-Windows users featured in the ads–the users didn’t approach the company first. Furthermore, the participants were paid to be in the ads and will receive royalties each time their ad airs. I don’t think any of this would be noteworthy if Jobs hadn’t implied that the users approached Apple instead of the other way around.
Oh, rich kid has a “variety of vehicles, drums, keyboards, surfboards, skis, sunglasses, TV’s, etc. etc.” ? And rich kid still gets touchy when I don’t say nice things about his special toy? Well, I’m sure rich kid has a good therapist too.
Sorry, kid, sometimes it’s better to accept the facts, take it like a man, and move on. Telling us about all your other toys is still playing the part of the whining 14 year old.
#m
http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/weblog/view/wlg/1683
Also, Wininformant.com is wrong.
Apple.com was soliciting comments all spring from folks who switched.
Liza Richardson was one of the ones who responded , and because of her status, they hired her to speak about her experience.
And horrors, they paid her for appearing in a commercial!
If they didn’t pay her, you would rail against them for that.
One button mice slam!
mac elitist asshole slam!
I should add them to the list of tired cliched slams I listedabove.
I posted above about the different manufactors of tools (you call them toys) I use not to boast about that (that would be lame, and I wrote that not too clearly to make my point)– but to counter your false claim that I am a victim of corporate brand control.
Diffrernt tools for different tasks (platform agnostic) was the cliche I was trying to avoid.
Your constant negative and some false statements that I challenge does NOT make me a mac zealot or a drug user as you claim. projecting ae you?
I WISH I was a kid again (in your mind , do only rich kids surf and play music and use 3 different platforms to work and make a living from?
what a tired little world you live in, go on, get outside, recreate).
The thing that is funny is that your assumption about who I am, is as insightful and true as your slams about someone who uses an Apple product. FALSE!
PS. M with a #,I have not once slammed windows ,Linux, (and the people who choose to use them as their Primary platform).
contrary to your MO.
On the O’Reilly weblog:
I cannot fathom how Nat went wrong with Windows. I’ve found Windows 2000 and Windows XP to be very simple to use. And every application supports “right-click”, something that cannot be said of Apple. With the amazing amount of choice that a Windows user has, I am amazed at how much of it simply works out of the box.
On this whole topic:
Perhaps I do go into “Slashdot mode” more than I’d like when it comes to the topic of Apple making their machines more available and more expandable — to slide the bar a bit closer to the customer. I’d like to see this happen, but most Apple owners are close-minded.
I am learning to see you as a well-rounded individual, not as an Apple mind slave. Yet on these topics, I still feel you don’t really acknowledge that Apple’s machines are not a good value for the hardware performance and expandability. I still get the feeling that Apple users are “lost in space” for the most part.
Twice I’ve looked at getting a G4 tower recently, but have been absolutely floored by how little machine you get for the money. And the entry level Macs are dog meat. They cannot even scroll a web page with reasonable speed.
As I don’t work at Apple, it doesn’t make sense for me to be any sort of champion for Apple making better machines. Far from being a PC zealot, I am a computer zealot, meaning I believe that computers have the potential to make our lives better. That is why I am carping on Apple’s poor attitude when it comes to making affordable high performance machines.
#m