Linked by Eugenia Loli on Fri 31st Oct 2003 17:21 UTC
Original OSNews Interviews Some time ago we featured an interview with an... official Mac OS X switcher. A year later, we found another Apple switcher, James Dorn ("noviteo" for his friends) and we ask him a few details upon the switch. Especially with the recent price cuts on Apple hardware and the Mac OS X Panther release last week, being a switcher becomes "cool" all over again.
Order by: Score:
If only...
by Shawn on Fri 31st Oct 2003 04:24 UTC

If only I hadn't invested so much money in my PC all these years. I can upgrade this ole' PC for a few hundred and it will be a lot faster.

But to buy an equivalent mac would mean spending thousands of dollars, and I would rather pay my car loan off :p

by PantherPPC on Fri 31st Oct 2003 04:27 UTC

For multiple desktops try using this...

http://wsmanager.sourceforge.net/

Re: If only...
by Anonymous on Fri 31st Oct 2003 04:30 UTC

"If only I hadn't invested so much money in my PC all these years. I can upgrade this ole' PC for a few hundred and it will be a lot faster."

Its as if you glossed over every reason he preferred his Mac. You make it sound like he could get the same for less if he bought a PC... [roll eyes]

multiple desktops
by Anonymous on Fri 31st Oct 2003 04:31 UTC

I use fast user switching to get the same desired effect as multiple desktops. it works nearly as good IMHO

v LOL
by Mystilleef on Fri 31st Oct 2003 04:48 UTC
Oh jeez... not again OSNews!
by johnfive on Fri 31st Oct 2003 04:51 UTC

I wouldn't go so far as to call this article propaganda but it's pretty close. I wish Apple would do the world a favor and release OS X on x86, because then we wouldn't have to endure so much anti Microsoft hot air.

Switcher?
by Dave on Fri 31st Oct 2003 04:53 UTC

Although the interview is brief, I'm not convinced that he's actually used all the Operating Systems listed. Not even all the Windows versions!

Hell, I'd even be surprised if he really has a YDLinux partition on his machine. I could be wrong, but he seems to have no reall understanding of an OS beyond the application level. Does sitting in front of a machine with a system installed qualify as using it?

A few thoughts
by nixperson on Fri 31st Oct 2003 05:01 UTC

If apple released OS X on x86, well then microsoft wouldnt bank roll them any more.

As for Dave's comment " I'm not convinced that he's actually used all the Operating Systems listed. Not even all the Windows versions! "

I would have to agree. I believe that he may have installed them but never really used the OS' or explored the app's.

As for MS bashing, "I LOVE IT". Competition from other OS' like *BSD and Linux has put a fire under MS' butt. And I believe that is a good thing. Got to keep comapanies on there tippie toes...

What a load
by rizzo on Fri 31st Oct 2003 05:03 UTC

>>iexplore.exe has caused a page fault in module at WHOTHEHECKKNOWSWHATTHIESENUMBERSMEAN:FFFFFFF01"<<

He makes it sound like apps on the Mac never fail. That's a load of crap. Like a previous poster said, this guy seems to have very little understanding beyond web browsing.

NeXT !
by Robert Folkerts on Fri 31st Oct 2003 05:08 UTC

My .. two of the killer features are
1) a spell checker that works everywhere
2) a beautiful front end on Unix.

This sounds like a NeXT cube from the mid 90's. Jobs certainly got the technology right .. Why oh why can't apple turn that in to larger marketshare .. on both PowerPC and x86 boxen?

addiction of the Microsoft cigaret[te]?
by Mr. Cranky on Fri 31st Oct 2003 05:13 UTC

Ummm, yeah. Using any version of Windows, to me, is more like going to the dentist. Painful and annoying but occasionally necessary (unfortunately). Linux, BeOS, and other OS's might be more difficult to use, harder to understand, or whatever but at least they're not as just plain annoying as Windows 9x, 2000, and ESPECIALLY XP. XP = Windows 2000 + eXtra Puke. Regrettably, I have to use Win2K for work since I'm a cog in the machine that is Corporate America (TM) and my employer is very Microsoft whipped.

If money grew on trees, I'd buy a G5 Powermac. I just looked out the window and saw some trees. Unfortunately I all saw were some dead looking branches where leaves used to be. Didn't see any green paper bills on them.

Thank you, good night.

-Mr. Cranky

True.. true..
by johnfive on Fri 31st Oct 2003 05:14 UTC

I like MS bashing as much as the next man, but it gets a little tiring after awhile. I've actually grown to really like Windows XP now that Microsoft seems to be getting more serious about security/stability issues.

One of the reasons I always refused any Mac OS is because up until recently the way Windows managaes, well, windows, IMO, was superior. But now this Expose thing, though I haven't tried it yet, looks like it raises the bar for Window management.

But, let's call a spade a spade here. Mac OS has now borrowed several UI features that Windows has had since '95. For example:

* The OS X dock == a spiffed up Windows taskbar
* The new program switcher is Panther == Alt-tab in Windows

Only a couple but I'm sure there are more. Also, what's with the way Mac OS has historically handled mice. What am I crippled! I'm not allowed to move the mouse more than 2 inches per second. I heard this is fixed in Panther, but before this release: Apple, get a clue!

Point is no one UI is perfect. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. Just look at the many blunders OS X still makes in Eugenia's recent excellent article: http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=4964.

From what I've read, I do think OS X.3 is probably the best desktop UI now in existence. Though it doesn't hurt to be objective once in awhile. After not only Bill Gates works at Microsoft. There are regular people who work there and they should be congratulated for their UI innovations. The same goes for Apple.

Congrats to all for pushing the state of the art!

Apple
by Alex (The Original) on Fri 31st Oct 2003 05:15 UTC

I have never really used a Mac except once when I was at UNI, they had a few G4s (I think that's what they were) and they were using the old MacOS 9 system. I only then dared to touch this type of system for a few minutes. For some reason I found it very uncomfy and I remember ms word crashing and a popup message box came up on the screen saying it has crashed and all of a sudden this robotic voice appeared reading the text in the message box. I almost cracked lauging because I hadn't seen such a thing before and it was like in the movies hehehe ;) and I tell my friend, hey hey look at this, it talks to you! ;)

Everything was soooo strange because I am used to Windows so much. I have never used OS X but we have some Apple centers in here and I may pay them a visit a few times to play with MAC OS X, just to feel the system and see how it is. After all the reviews I read about G5, I actually wished I had a G5 ;) hehe If I like MAC OS X, the next system may be it would be an Apple system ;)

@Anonymous
by Shawn on Fri 31st Oct 2003 05:17 UTC

"Its as if you glossed over every reason he preferred his Mac. You make it sound like he could get the same for less if he bought a PC... [roll eyes]"

Not what my post was intending. It's more like an existing PC owner lamenting the prohibitive costs of starting over on a new computing platform.

For me, I'd have to purchase a new version of Photoshop, and none of my PC games would be useable of course.

It's a large commitment to switch to a new platform. I run Linux most of the time anyway (since I'm mainly a coder), so blue screens and stuff are hardly an issue.

What little I use Windows I use for Gaming and Photoshop. Nothing else...

Microsoft Bashing?
by Mel on Fri 31st Oct 2003 05:26 UTC

I really do not see how James was microsoft bashing. I am a college student and can honestly say that I have had much better luck with using a mac than with windows. Several times I have been typing huge papers and the blue screen of death appears and completely kills any work I have done. I know there is a feature to save work when this happens, but it doesn't always recover the work. On the other hand I have never had this happen with a mac. I am sure it can, but hasn't happened yet. Also, why is there so much fuss between mac and windows anyways? Mac and Windows both have good ideas and products. I never heard James say that Microsoft was complete crap. He only wrote of an experience he had with the Windows OS. Its only a matter of preference. Both companies have good ideas, but I definately think that macs are now stepping up to the plate to give windows based systems some competition. Thanks,
Mel

@all negative replies
by yutt on Fri 31st Oct 2003 05:41 UTC

The general concensus of the posts before me are, if someone claims to like Apples, they compulsivley lie about what operating systems they use, and have no understanding of computers.

I've never used a Mac, ever. But it is obvious your biases are showing. And so what if he isn't a computer genius, maybe he's just a "User", it doesn't mean the operating system is bad, hell, it just shows how good it must be to attract both technical and non-technical people.

I am certain he has used all of the operating systems he claimed to, has a Yellow Dog installation, and has reasonable knowledge of operating systems. Anyone who thought contrary to that needs to take of the tinfoil hat, lose their "1337" attitude, and stop being so critical of other people.

Jesus, this guy takes time out of his life to do an interesting little interview and all people can do is endlessly complain about it. Grow up. Not everyone is a system administrator or program developer, that doesn't make them any less intelligent than those that are.

RE: Microsoft Bashing?
by Derrick Shields on Fri 31st Oct 2003 05:51 UTC

>> Several times I have been typing huge papers and the blue screen of death appears and completely kills any work I have done. <<

Blue Screen of Death hasn't been around for at least a few year, with the introduction of Windows XP/Windows 2000... maybe it's time you upgraded?

Switching
by Bill Leeper on Fri 31st Oct 2003 05:52 UTC

As a long time computer person, I started in the military in 1970, and almost 20 years of using Intel PC's I can sympathise with the author. And he may indeed have used all the OS's he specified. I have used more than I care to mention and the best was BeOS. With the advent of the new G5 I finally broke down and switched. I speced out a top of the line G5 and Intel system and much to my surprise there was very little price difference.

Anyway, I have been using my new system for only a couple of weeks now and I will say that so far I am very happy with it. I spend a lot of time fixing problems on other peoples windows systems so when I sit down at my own keyboard I just want a system that works. I have failed to find that in amy version of windows. If the last couple of weeks are any indication I may have found what I was looking for. As the saying goes, "Try it, you will like it".

RE: True.. true..
by jtfolden on Fri 31st Oct 2003 06:01 UTC

Johnfive said "* The OS X dock == a spiffed up Windows taskbar"


ummm, have you ever heard of NeXTSTEP?

SW, HW
by Emil 'opi' Oppeln Bronikowski on Fri 31st Oct 2003 06:14 UTC

,,Apple makes the hardware, Apple makes the software'' -- This whole Apple looks like Genesi ;->

Our Mac is not hacked. Pure 100% unadalterated Apple stuff. Same with the OS. Yet, I think it's just as annoying (in different ways and some similar) as Microsoft Windows XP and a PC. Anyone here who has seen my postings on this topic will know I have constant and annoying problems with Mac OS X. I'm really tired of seeing the statements about how Apple is so much better and that life using a Mac is so much better. It's just not true. These comments are at best totally subjective. Someone like me can't stand Macs any more than I can stand WindowsXP. Someone else may work totally differently and feel comfortable with a Mac. So be it. But the grass is not greener on the other side for everyone. I'm still looking for MY greener pasture and I don't think it exists... yet.

I'm still waiting for the OS I paid for...

Apple Makes the Hardware....
by Mystilleef on Fri 31st Oct 2003 06:19 UTC

UmmmmHmmmm....yeap, they make the hardware. Sure they do. By the way, when is PartIII coming out?

@john_five
by Rayiner Hashem on Fri 31st Oct 2003 06:21 UTC

The Dock is actually a direct descendent of the NeXT dock, which predates Win95. Its actually superior to the taskbar in several ways once you get used to how it works. Also, the tab-switching has been in CDE forever, so it probably predates Windows as well.

Microsoft innovation
by Rayiner Hashem on Fri 31st Oct 2003 06:23 UTC

In the interest of fair and balanced reporting:

Apple (and everyone else) borrowed one MS innovation --- tabs. Tabs are overused in a lot of ways (I prefer the MacOS style icon sidebar for stuff like config panes) but its undoubtedly an important feature.

More on crashes...
by Jace on Fri 31st Oct 2003 06:29 UTC

Yes, I was particularly annoyed at the implication that OSX and OSX software doesn't crash.

OS X DOES crash and so do the apps.

I'm a victim of the mysterious "It's only YOU, Jace" problem of Safari freezing on forums and other active content sites (come over and I'll show you, it happens every time).

Then there are the times when I close an app and OS X tells me that it "unexpectedly quit." No, you twit, I quit it myself.

Then there's that floppy problem with FAT volumes that will bring the whole OS to a standstill.

My favorite crash is the one that happens for no apparent reason (and with a lack of technical feedback, ALL failures are for no "apparent" reason), when the computer was sitting idle, doing nothing, running nothing other than OS X and IE. My girl was browsing the net. She got up and walked away when she was done. I walked by the computer about 20 minutes later and there was a "You need to restart your computer" message in six languages transparently covering a static screen with a big "power button symbol" in the background. I asked her if this was why she left it and she said no, she was just done. It apparently did this on its own. For no reason that mere mortals can see (and Apple doesn't like to give useful and meaningful information... try copying a file with more than 31 characters in the name to a volume that is HFS standard). If that's not the Apple equivalent to BSOD, nothing is.

And here I am typing this in Safari on Mac OS X on our Mac G4... I'm not an anti-Apple zealot. I just don't like BS and hype.

Microsoft Innovation?? And Taskdockbars...
by Jace on Fri 31st Oct 2003 06:32 UTC

Tabs were in use on OS/2. Not MS OS/2, but IBM OS/2. This was before Win95. Correct me if I'm wrong, but provide proof and don't be an ass ;-)

Besides, I'd rather have a BeOS or Windows taskbar any day over the OS X Dock. Call it personal preference... but I think window management sucks in all versions of Mac OS, with OSX being the only slight improvement.

re: Just read the article...
by debman on Fri 31st Oct 2003 06:39 UTC

Liar. on my HP Pavilion laptop, I have had 4 Blue screens in 2 years. MS has cleverly hidden these from you by restarting your computer so you can't see it, but one time, there was a lag, and I saw a flash of blue with white text.

sure, Windows is WAYYYYY more stable now that in was back in the day, but to say it is bullet proof is just a damn lie. and no, I was not using bad drivers, or weird programs...I have VS 6 and Office installed, nothing else, and the only drivers I have on the laptop are Microsoft signed drivers.

anyone who has read here knows how much crap you spew. with all the problems you have, I suggest you either take your computer in and have it checked, or depending on how old the system is (a beige G3?) get a new system....OR you are running hackware on there.

problems do not just happen in OS X, there is some reason for them. and the reason is fixable....but hey, you don't want to help yourself, then why are you complaining?

v Hurray, a pro- and/or anti- Apple newsitem!
by Jeremy Friesner on Fri 31st Oct 2003 07:00 UTC
v Hurray, a pro- and/or anti- Apple newsitem!
by Jeremy Friesner on Fri 31st Oct 2003 07:00 UTC
@jace
by Rayiner Hashem on Fri 31st Oct 2003 07:10 UTC

Hmm, you're right. OS/2 had tabs about 1990, and apparently, some Amiga apps had them in 1985. They probably go back even farther. I think what I'm remembering is that Windows was the first one to use tabs extensively (for prefs panels and whatnot) and when Apple put tabs into MacOS, it was because of a direct influence from Windows.

As for the Dock, its nice because it preserves a nice spatial relationship between an application window's and its icon in the dock. If you don't really care for classic MacOS's whole spatial thing, then you probably won't care for the Dock either.

RE: Derrick Shields
by About-to-Switch on Fri 31st Oct 2003 07:11 UTC

"Blue Screen of Death hasn't been around for at least a few year, with the introduction of Windows XP/Windows 2000... maybe it's time you upgraded?"

I have a Bluescreen every couple of weeks and I'm using Windows XP Pro on my ThinkPad T21 laptop. Sometimes the entire OS just gets corrupted after repeated bluescreens and automatic restarts. I tried everything from not installing the Service Pack to changing RAM, same thing, and when I run hardware diagnostic programs, everything checks out fine.

This is whats making my buy a new G4 iBook. I've tried FreeBSD on the T21, but the XFree86 drivers for the Savaga IX card are unstable, screensavers crash the entire OS, and the free *nixes simply don't have the applications that I need. Applications like PhotoShop (PLEASE don't tell me to use GIMP). My filmscanner is also only supported under Windows and Mac OS/OSX. And I must admit, no one makes prettier machines than Apple, and with the recent release of G4 iBooks, I now have no excuse NOT to switch.

Reply to debman's typical elite responses
by Jace on Fri 31st Oct 2003 07:11 UTC

Thank you for exemplifying the typical offensive and slanderous response to my valid and honest description of real technical problems with Apple products.

If you had paid attention to what I said before getting into your "arrogant response" position so quickly, you'd know that it is NOT a beige G3.

Thank you for also including the typical redirecting response of "get a new machine" as though ours is somehow inferior because it didn't roll out of manufacturing two weeks ago.

" problems do not just happen in OS X, there is some reason for them."

Are you implying that problems DO just happen on Windows and that Mac OS X is somehow immune to this annoyance?

Of course there are causes. There are not always solutions. At least, not solutions within the grasp of mere mortals like myself. Or at least, not within the grasp of people who want to just use the computer as a tool to get stuff done instead of constantly trying to find out why it doesn't do what it's supposed to do. Maybe someone like you would have it fixed faster than I can say "Yeah right" but I've got a job and other priorities in life that come before troubleshooting products that are supposed to just work.

I suspect that the cause of the problems may be along the lines of ... well let's see... bad OS X code. Such as lack of testing of OS X on the G4 system type I have here (it was superceded by a few other machines before OS X shipped). Bad code in the FAT filesystem handler, as explained by a poster on another Apple article feedback forum here at OSNews (he had equally harsh criticism of OS X). Lack of stress testing in general.

I don't want to help myself, you say... EXCUSE ME. I help myself constantly. More than should be necessary. What I DON'T want to do is disrupt the other computer users in this house for as long as it takes to narrow the cause of these problems (by a drive to backup the existing drive's contents on, wipe the existing drive, reload the OS from scratch, swap out memory, video, etc) and the longer amount of time and money that it would take to solve them (if possible).

One last thing... which problems of mine are you claiming that I don't actually have or that "do not just happen" in OS X? I've so many and you've only responded in the most vaguest of ways, not refering to any of them in specific. I'd love to solve these problems so if you're so sure these problems are fixable... do tell how instead of just going on about how I'm full of crap.

Fact: BSOD on WinXP
by CaptainPinko on Fri 31st Oct 2003 07:19 UTC

i can verify that BSODs exist in XP, the XP driver that came w/ my DVD-RAM combo-drive was not XP signed and attempting to erase (i believe it s been patched since this) a DVD-RW in it could crash the OS and BSOD. i'm not saying that the BSOD in this case was M$'s fault, but the point is that BSODs still do exist in XP

btw why when i get severe internet lag my downloading something huge does my MOUSE cursor become less response on a 2.3 Ghz P4 w/o HT w/ 1 Gig RDRAM ? THAT makes no sense


PS- the *LAST* thing i want is for OSX to be ported to the x86 platform. x86 as an ISA needs to DIE and OSX is the only viable choice. if you don't believe me just trying programming in x86 assembler and then something like SPARC (btw i PPC != SPARC, but still RISCy)

Reply to Rayiner Hashem
by Jace on Fri 31st Oct 2003 07:23 UTC

"Hmm, you're right. OS/2 had tabs about 1990, and apparently, some Amiga apps had them in 1985. They probably go back even farther."

It wouldn't surprise me :-) Thanks for pointing out that Amiga used them too. I never had one of those.

I think what I'm remembering is that Windows was the first one to use tabs extensively (for prefs panels and whatnot) and when Apple put tabs into MacOS, it was because of a direct influence from Windows.

MS has the enviable position of being envied. Lots of things that they do come from elsewhere, but, when MS does it, it suddenly gets noticed and people try to emulate it. Sometimes this is good and sometimes this is bad.

As for the Dock, its nice because it preserves a nice spatial relationship between an application window's and its icon in the dock.

I don't think I can agree here. I would say you're wrong, but maybe I don't understand your statement. The Dock, specifically, goes against many "good UI design practices." Such as maintaining a consistent location and size for and of a control or object that a user needs to interact with (I could give about 6 specific examples of this one). So, spacially, the Dock is an utter failure except with the fact that it is a place to store shortcuts and limited window management that is always on screen (unless you have it auto-hide, which is good that this is not a default behavior).

If you don't really care for classic MacOS's whole spatial thing, then you probably won't care for the Dock either.

I like these things about classic Mac OS very much. Classic MacOS had far more adherence to spacial concepts than OS X does. Classic Mac OS has a lot of things that OS X lacks (not that it can't acquire them through hard work and attention to details). Not just the little features like spring loaded folders and labels, either. Basic and fundamental design concepts such as easy system management, modularity, sensible names for most all objects in the file system (including the system folder's contents!!), consistency, UI speed, easy management of system add-ons, etc. Classic OS just lacked the modern memory and tasking functions that everyone wanted. The new Mac OS Apple was working on before they brought Jobs back to the company was a much better product (it just didn't live up to management's time expectations). The Classic mode in OS X is actually a port from that OS (the OS was called Copland).

Blue Screen
by Alex (The Original) on Fri 31st Oct 2003 08:06 UTC

I am not sure what you people experience but I have a custom built system for such a long time now and ran XP on it, I haven't seen a single BSOD literally.

@Jace
by Rayiner Hashem on Fri 31st Oct 2003 08:08 UTC

About the dock. I don't know too much about how OS X does it, my experience with docks is mostly in Linux. Linux docks invariably follow the NeXT model, which keeps a very strong spatial connection between a window and its icon. I suppose the Dock in OS X is a bit different, because it tries to be a shortcut bar at the same time, as well as doing all sorts of resizing and moving around and whatnot. NeXT style docks don't do that. Also, they can be large and visible without taking up lots of space. NeXT style docks can be managed basically as just another window. That means that apps can lie on top of them, to avoid wasting screen space. However, if you move your cursor to one side (or corner) of the screen, the dock will rise to the top of the window stack, which ensures that it is always quickly accessible.

Replies
by CooCooCaChoo on Fri 31st Oct 2003 08:21 UTC

Shawn (IP: ---.kc.rr.com) - Posted on 2003-10-31 04:24:38
If only I hadn't invested so much money in my PC all these years. I can upgrade this ole' PC for a few hundred and it will be a lot faster.

But to buy an equivalent mac would mean spending thousands of dollars, and I would rather pay my car loan off :p


I can agree with your to a certain extent. I have heard others say, "if they had a competitive upgrade policy which allowed me to move from from the Windows to equivilant Mac version, I would be happy to pay the media costs". I am probably lucky in the fact that the software I owned was dual-operating system, that is, MacOS and Windows version came on the same CD, which was rather neat.

With that being said, there isn't a lack of games but the ability to purchase them is a real nightmare. Sure, you can buy a Mac and productivity applications no problems, however, even finding something as common as "Civilisation III" or "Simcity 4000" is almost impossible. Sure, I *could* purchase it online, however, I am a bit of a ludite and prefer going in and actually

Yet on the other hand, I love Office X for MacOS, it is a great piece of software and I would love to purchase the next version of Office when made available. As for Macromedia 2004, apart from the activation, again, it is great piece of software. The only let down IMHO is Corel Graphics Suite, however, its speed is crap both on the Mac and PC, maybe once I have saved my "pennies and pounds" I can purchase Adobe Creative Suite; having used informally InDesign 2, IMHO I can't believe I put up with all the ideosyncracies of Corel Draw for so long.

johnfive (IP: ---.ne.client2.attbi.com) - Posted on 2003-10-31 04:51:06
I wouldn't go so far as to call this article propaganda but it's pretty close. I wish Apple would do the world a favor and release OS X on x86, because then we wouldn't have to endure so much anti Microsoft hot air.

The whole attraction of the Mac isn't the hardware or the software but the whole package, it is what the marketspeak people call a "vertical business". To achieve the level of integration between the hardware and software which Apple has, they need to control all the aspects of the system and I'm sorry, if you produce a MacOS X, even under the best conditions you're still going to be handstrung by the fact that Apple will need to test their operating system on the numerous hardware combinations; that doesn't even take into account the number of small white box producers who make up a good portion.

That doesn't take into account the amount of possibly different chipsets and the necessary software to work around bugs in the actual chipsets themselves, then there are the video cards, each vendor adding a tweak of their own even though they're all based on the same GPU, hence the reason why it is such a hit and miss to whether you get realiable performance from video cards running on Linux regardless of the fact that the video card is based on a the same GPU's.

rizzo (IP: ---.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net) - Posted on 2003-10-31 05:03:49
He makes it sound like apps on the Mac never fail. That's a load of crap. Like a previous poster said, this guy seems to have very little understanding beyond web browsing.

Which represents Joe Average. This is the same audiance that Windows and MacOS pander to. Whether or not the issue is hardware or software, the fact remains that the end user will either blame the computer company, Microsoft or both. The fact remains that if the user perception is that the software is buggy, it doesn't matter whose fault it is, they (the customer) assume that it is the computers fault.

The fact remains that if the hardware and software companies work together OR are under the same roof, it is less likely for problems to arrise. Imagine if every Dell was stress tested with Windows XP and any problems that are found can correct by Microsoft and Dell, you would effectively end up with a situation similar to Apple except both would be independent of each other.

Ugh...
by NA on Fri 31st Oct 2003 08:27 UTC

I'm primarily a Mac user and this is the stupidest interview I've ever read.

A much bigger 'switcher' story
by Anonymous on Fri 31st Oct 2003 08:54 UTC

Optus Australias' second largest telecom announced it is replacing 5000 (five thousand) Mac desktops with PCs running Windows.

http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7708246%255E15317,0...

I suspect that there are 10 Mac desktops switched to x86 for every Windows to Mac switcher.

Seriously ?
by robUx4 on Fri 31st Oct 2003 09:02 UTC

Anyone able to say such sentences as "Would I ever go back? I will never go back to XXX: not for anything in the world." shouldn't be taken too seriously !

Apparently this guy have a very limited sight of the future. And prefer to stick to a definitive (temporary) point of view...

Re: Switcher?
by John Blink on Fri 31st Oct 2003 09:10 UTC

Although the interview is brief, I'm not convinced that he's actually used all the Operating Systems listed. Not even all the Windows versions!

I have used all versions of windows over my computing life but I don't still use them all.

Hell, I'd even be surprised if he really has a YDLinux partition on his machine. I could be wrong, but he seems to have no reall understanding of an OS beyond the application level. Does sitting in front of a machine with a system installed qualify as using it?


Is this a bad thing. I find if I am playing with the OS then I am not doing any work. Unless your work involves OSes ;)

v Eh.
by Negvibe on Fri 31st Oct 2003 09:54 UTC
Reply to Rayiner Hashem
by Jace on Fri 31st Oct 2003 09:55 UTC

About the dock. I don't know too much about how OS X does it, my experience with docks is mostly in Linux.

Heh heh heh...

Linux docks invariably follow the NeXT model, which keeps a very strong spatial connection between a window and its icon. I suppose the Dock in OS X is a bit different, because it tries to be a shortcut bar at the same time, as well as doing all sorts of resizing and moving around and whatnot. NeXT style docks don't do that.

I was very interested in NeXT... just before Jobs through out the baby with the bath water. I was too late and NeXT was too costly even before then. Thanks for the notes about the differences of the Dock in the Linux. I would hope that they don't begin to copy the behaviors of the Dock in OSX. Sadly, most alternative OSes seem to only copy the (often bad) ideas of the commercial OSes on the top of the food chain.

I think that's the last post for me tonight...
by Jace on Fri 31st Oct 2003 10:01 UTC

At 4:59am... my typos are making me look like English may be my second language... and I'm a lame monolingual.

I'm not intending to be so down on Linux and open source and alternative OSes with that last comment. It's just a trend that needs to be seriously looked at. Choose a design for good reasons. Do research. Don't just imitate. There are some good new ideas here and there but most stuff is just in immitation mode.

an "official" switcher?
by jose_g on Fri 31st Oct 2003 10:09 UTC

wow! no wonder the guy is an "official" switcher. no complaints at all! only positive feelings about Macs. even one button mouse didn't make him feeling uncomfortable. that's weird!

RE: an "official" switcher?
by hezekiah on Fri 31st Oct 2003 10:21 UTC

wow! no wonder the guy is an "official" switcher. no complaints at all! only positive feelings about Macs. even one button mouse didn't make him feeling uncomfortable. that's weird!

iBooks don't come with a mouse. As for the one-button mouse issue, you can always use a 3rd-party gazillion button USB mouse with any USB-equipped Macs and they'll work just fine.

re: Blue Screen
by bagdadbob on Fri 31st Oct 2003 11:12 UTC

I am not sure what you people experience but I have a custom built system for such a long time now and ran XP on it, I haven't seen a single BSOD literally.

That's because XP's default is to reboot in the case of BSOD. You have to go to "System Properties", "Startup and Recovery" settings, and unclick "Automatically restart". Now instead of the magical, sponteaneous reboots, you will get your BSOD.

I get them on my Dell laptop with the "Designed for Microsoft Windows XP" sticker on it. All signed drivers. Installed and configured by the corporate infrastructure team.

common sentiment
by randall flagg on Fri 31st Oct 2003 11:22 UTC

his experience with PCs is a common sentiment that drives people to switch.

BSOD, viruses, vulnerabilties, cryptic error messages and Windows in general are good enough reasons for most people. I don't understand why people are surprised with his comments. Most people are frustrated with PCs and if not they are generally indifferent. The people that are not are usually more technically inclined to fix their problems and even these people get frustrated.

I'm not saying that Macs and MacOSX is perfect but if you give it a real test drive most usually find that its better than what you are normally accustomed to.

Wow, Calm down people!
by James Dorn on Fri 31st Oct 2003 11:32 UTC

Please understand, this is just my own opinion. The fact of the matter is, I have used every operating system I did list, for at least a year at a time. If you really want to know, I WAS a computer tech for 3 strait years at a single store. If you want a stressful job, please take my place. You even begin to understand my frustrations until you do. I am indeed an experianced user, who used to build machines & maintain a Windows network. I cannot fight my experince with everyone, because not everyone has the same view as me, I understand that. I am tired of the people who think they are computer techs because they can build a Windows jiggsaw computer. Thiese are the same people who have 5 diffrent types of screws holding the mother board strait down to the metal backing, if not the brass stand-offs. Until you get frustrated with the hassles of Microsoft Windows, witch, you will - Do not fault me for my opinion.

As far as Apple computers - I never said applications do not crash, or are so much better. The application department for MacOS X is still very much a young child. What I can tell you is, I am not going to spend my time re-loading my computer every 30 days because I upgraded my web browser and now nothing works.

Re: bagdadbob
by Alex (The Original) on Fri 31st Oct 2003 12:13 UTC

There are no automatic restarts, nor there are any BSODs. Once I had problems when I had the Intel Application Accelerator installed and I believe that caused instant reboots, it was as if someone had clicked the reset button. That's how my system restarted. I thought my RAM or mainboard could be at fault but ever since I did a re-format and did not install the app accelerator, never seen any problems. I am not saying the app accel, caused the reboots, may be it was something else but I haven't seen any problems now. My system is rock stable.

Why not to switch to Apple !
by Bugtrqa on Fri 31st Oct 2003 12:37 UTC

20 10/28 @stake Advisori (3,4K) Mac OS X Arbitrary File Overwrite via Core Files
-> 21 10/28 @stake Advisori (4,7K) Mac OS X Systemic Insecure File Permissions
22 10/28 @stake Advisori (3,3K) Mac OS X Long argv[] buffer overflow
Fix : Update to Panther


For the moment, it is not clear if Apple will release for free bugfixes for his 15days old operating system.
Even Microsoft doesn't dare to such things nowdays.

Re: OS X on X86
by mini-me on Fri 31st Oct 2003 12:55 UTC

It seems that people are either not informed, or they have short memories.

Back when OS X was called Rhasody, apple did have two versions of teh OS, an X86 version (which I now run under VPC) and a PPC version. Apple let the DEVELOPERS decide. They gave developers both copies and they said "go ahead and knock yourselves out, make any app that you want ;) " In the end PPC apps were more than double the x86 apps! Even though apps for either platform could be made with a simple recompile (well possibly some adjustments too), developers chose to compile for the PPC platform mostly. These were not all mac developers, I would fathom to guess that most were NeXTSTEP developers that made the jumped from NeXT to Rhapsody.


After the dev Ed 2 f Rhapsody, the x86 version was never again made.

RE :Why not to switch to Apple !
by peragrin on Fri 31st Oct 2003 13:08 UTC

" By Bugtrqa (IP: ---.atis-stud.uni-karlsruhe.de) -
20 10/28 @stake Advisori (3,4K) Mac OS X Arbitrary File Overwrite via Core Files
-> 21 10/28 @stake Advisori (4,7K) Mac OS X Systemic Insecure File Permissions
22 10/28 @stake Advisori (3,3K) Mac OS X Long argv[] buffer overflow
Fix : Update to Panther"

yea okay @stake didn't list ms blaster warnings, fired a top guy because he said bad things about a monocultre operating system. (microsoft only world)

Also apple has not said whether or not it will fix the probelms. it is in limbo at the moment.

Compared to msblaster, SQL slammer and 31 remote Internet Explorer holes(unpatched and won't be)

3 little holes with no known remote exploit is a minor deal

v .:.
by HAL on Fri 31st Oct 2003 13:13 UTC
RE: common sentiment
by Max on Fri 31st Oct 2003 13:18 UTC

>BSOD, viruses, vulnerabilties, cryptic error messages and Windows in general are good enough reasons for most people.

A message from the Real World(tm): Most people use Wintels, 95% + X actually.
Apple is more irrelevant than ever before with only 1-2% marketshare. The only real competition for MS is Linux on the server and the sysadim-managed cooperate desktop.





windows and linux crows...
by mini-me on Fri 31st Oct 2003 13:34 UTC

..gotta love em :-D
No company is irrelevent my friend, not sun, not SGI, not apple.

my bad
by mini-me on Fri 31st Oct 2003 13:35 UTC

previous title should read "Windows and Linux crowDs" not crows ;)

BeOS?
by rajan r on Fri 31st Oct 2003 13:49 UTC

I'm not going to post anything about this clear Apple propaganda, but

The MacOS is absolutely ASTONISHING. It has the same simplicity & stability of the BeOS

Heck, Windows XP was more stable for me than BeOS. Hrmmph.

RE: More on crashes
by UFOGoldorak on Fri 31st Oct 2003 13:57 UTC

"You need to restart your computer" message in six languages transparently covering a static screen with a big "power button symbol".
99% of the time this is caused by bad ram. Shit does go bad. Even Apple's shit. It is not made from pure holly energy you know. No one says the Mac is perfect. It is just the best solution out there.

RE: common sentiment
by grapegraphics on Fri 31st Oct 2003 14:00 UTC

"A message from the Real World(tm): Most people use Wintels, 95% + X actually.
Apple is more irrelevant than ever before with only 1-2% marketshare. The only real competition for MS is Linux on the server and the sysadim-managed cooperate desktop."

Hmm... Most car owners buy GM/Ford et al... So, I guess with this premis, Ferrari's, BMWs etc. are irrelevant as well.

Hmm... Most DESIGNERS use MAC. Period. That's not to say that ALL designers use a Mac... I get more done, in less time on my Mac... with minimal foibles... yes, I yell at my computers, and I yell at the PC's in my life a LOT more than I yell at my Mac.

Servers... The Mac OSX has been making great strides in that department... I'd love to MicroSnort loose big time to Linux Servers... Wouldn't be nice to have a world of Mac & Linux, together? Hmmm, Servers could be either Mac OR Linux... Portables and Desktops Mac?

personally, I use a PC(XP) at my day job and a Mac for my freelance work. With all the differnt distros of Linux et al, I can't see myself using Linux in an actual work environment, unless I have a box (linux) dedicated to being a server or running 'certain' apps etc.



Re: @Jace
by rajan r on Fri 31st Oct 2003 14:00 UTC

Rayiner, I've used a lot of Window Maker, AfterStep, etc. on Linux, I can definately say that a lot of good points about NeXT's model. The same can't be said about OS X dock. Had OS X kept the Dock mostly intact, it would have been fine. But it decided to be a cross between the Dock and Windows' taskbar, and having it in the middle of the screen with no constant location for each icon is a terrible idea for me. And the fact that unless you hover over, they don't come with labels is bad (NeXT at least had labels underneath, and I could imagine the Dock with smaller icons and larger labels).

Overall, if I used OS X, I would try to replace the Dock. Right now using Windows, on the quick launch, as it had been for more than one and a half years, the icons to Opera is right there and I automatically click it everytime I want to browse. The same can be said of Thunderbird's icon, although it is more recent and my reflects less spontanous. I can't imagine the same for the Dock. Sure, it would be easier with a big red O icon to attract my attention, but I hate the size of the dock anyway.

Funny, though. I loved Platinum (Classic's UI). May not be the best thing to look at, could sure need some new icons, as well some polishing here and there and not to mention a little rearrangement (especially the control panel/ preferences, as well as the Apple menu). But hands down, I would choose Classic over OS X anytime. (And Dock isn't the only reason).

No upgrade path
by teknishn on Fri 31st Oct 2003 14:33 UTC

Id like to give OSX a try, but it just wont happen because of their upgrade paths. I upgrade my PC for a few hundred every year or so, Linux is free, and Microsoft takes many years to release new OSs. So, at the end of the day my computer isnt costing me very much. Mac, on the other hand costs a bundle to get into, has no hardware upgrade path worth mentioning outside of buying whole new machines, and has regular expensive updates to OSX. All told the OSX platform simply costs way too much IMO. It costs more and does less. This is why Apple as 1 - 2% market share. Before anyone gets excited and turns on the flame thrower.....when I say it does less, Im referring to its ability to play most games out there. You could go further to say that when you walk into your local electronics retailer, there is usually row after row of x86 software and a small 5 x 5 shelf for the Mac stuff if at all.

Re: No upgrade path
by teknishn on Fri 31st Oct 2003 14:35 UTC

I meant to say "inability" in the second to last sentence

Mac Administration
by BriDaddy on Fri 31st Oct 2003 14:56 UTC

Has anyone had much experience working with Macs in the workplace? At my job, we provide IT support for a small company in our building, for the last 2 years. Half of their network uses Macs, half Win9x/2k PC's. While I'll be the first to admit that I can't stand Windows (especially the Win9x series), maintaining the Macs running OS 9 is much worse. It seems like the Macs work perfectly (much better than the PCs), until there is some problem. Then, diagnosing, and fixing the problem takes much more time and energy.

Is this true for OS X? Does anyone else feel the same about Macs, i.e. - when they break, they REALLY break hard?

Re: Wow, Calm down people!
by PC on Fri 31st Oct 2003 14:58 UTC

If you really want to know, I WAS a computer tech for 3 strait years at a single store.

Yup. Nothing like sysadmin or tech work to make those endearing traits of different OS'es become major pains in the neck. Most people can deal with it on one machine, but when it comes to fixing 10+ you start to lose your patience pretty fast, no matter what OS.

As far as Apple computers - I never said applications do not crash, or are so much better. The application department for MacOS X is still very much a young child.

Well, depends on the approach a person takes. I notice most anti-Mac people find ways to complain about how their apps don't map over, whereas pro-Mac users usually find better apps, or find they don't need those old apps anyhow. An argument on Linux vs Windows vs MacOS apps usually degenerates into something resembling kids fighting over GameCube vs XBox vs PS2. Rather juvenile, indeed.

What I can tell you is, I am not going to spend my time re-loading my computer every 30 days because I upgraded my web browser and now nothing works.

Or mal/spyware crept in and redirects your home page to porn sites all the time. Well, ironic these days, most motherboard manufacturers ship Ghost with the motherboard software pack now...

Mindless zombies
by anon on Fri 31st Oct 2003 15:08 UTC

What is it about Mac zealots that makes them mindlessly repeat Apple sales slogans such as "It just works" and "switch"? One would think, listening to them, that Mr. Jobs is a Svengali and can make his converts repeat anything his marketing department dreams up.

Re: Mac Administration
by PC on Fri 31st Oct 2003 15:12 UTC

Has anyone had much experience working with Macs in the workplace?

Yes. Over 5 years now officially, unofficially over 15 years.

...maintaining the Macs running OS 9 is much worse. It seems like the Macs work perfectly (much better than the PCs), until there is some problem.

You need a SOE for MacOS since users generally start creeping stuff into the system which starts a downwards spiral, as once a Mac starts crashing, it generally keeps on doing it if the System is flakey, while general app faults are pretty easy to fix. Most of the time, you can reinstall the app or ditch the preferences to fix the problem, or do some troubleshooting to fix the problem. Depends what is going on.

Again - if you are not experienced with troubleshooting MacOS, what could be a trivial problem becomes a rather big problem psychologically. In my case, I had a lab of iMacs running Mac Manager and 8.6 - my total workload for the year would be 2 weeks. If a Mac died beyond all recognition (ie, didn't boot anymore), you could zip up and reinstall the OS via NetBoot trivially. (I think about 3 iMacs did this over a year, though).

Is this true for OS X? Does anyone else feel the same about Macs, i.e. - when they break, they REALLY break hard?

MacOS X has all new quirks to deal with, so it's more like Unix so you have to check file permissions, /etc files, processes etc. In general, a cleanly set up MacOS X kept up to date with all the security patches and updates and the user is kept from installing software or messing things up with run nicely for quite a while. (Plus you can blast it and reinstall a SOE MacOS X quickly).

Though, for MacOS 8/9 - if it breaks in a big way, it breaks badly, however this is pretty rare. Most of the time (95%) it's apps crashing and leaving bad prefs lying around, or software not being kept up to date. If you are familiar with MacOS diagnosing it is pretty straightforward. Especially if you keep tabs on the person's machine and tell them not mess with the System.

In general, if OS'es switch to signing/MD5'ing preferences and keeping backups, and in general, stopping users from messing with the application files, a sizeable amount of the wierd stuff that happens on a PC/Mac would be trackable and preventable.

Its called Desktop-Manager
by Me on Fri 31st Oct 2003 15:48 UTC

http://wsmanager.sourceforge.net/

Its not listed on versiontracker.com. Its free its opensource and it great! (haven't tested it with panther tho).

re: Upgrade path
by mini-me on Fri 31st Oct 2003 15:48 UTC

I do not really get what you mean.
There is an upgrade path if you wish to go that way. It is called a CPU upgrade PCI card. You CAN upgrade your CPU, you CAN upgrade your video card, you CAN upgrade other things in your computer. You CAN get USB and FireWire preipherals. Heck you can even go out and buy another motherboard from an apple parts store if you wish. It is more worthwhile though to just buy a new computer. If you get a computer from Dell, Gateway, IBM et al, there is no real upgrade path. The only upgrade path is if you make a computer from scratch and you just upgrade components as you see fit. However that can be a nightmare. I had a friend who bought a new modem for his homebrewed x86 machine and it did not work with his motherboard. Then he bought a new motherboard, and a new processor chip (figured "hey what the hell, I am buying a new MB so why not upgrade my processor?"). The old RAM did not work with the new MB so he bought more RAM to put in his new MB.

He spent a lot of dough just because he bought a new modem... personally I would much rather buy a new mac and either (1) canibalize parts from my old mac (video card, HD, DVD, etc) and put it in my new mac, or (2) just have both computers side by side with a monitor switcher box and use both simultaneously for different purposes, or (3) cluster both machines and get the most out of it.


The botton line is that PCs aren't as cost effective as you might think, unless you REALLY plan ahead and make your own from scratch and you try to figure out all the incompatibilities ahead of time. I have a 3.5 year old mac at home and the only 2 upgrades that I got for it in the time that I have owned it was an external 30GB HD and RAM (total cost: 450USD). Not bad eh?


Here's a good OS comparison
by Pubert on Fri 31st Oct 2003 16:01 UTC


Although I don't agree with some of the feature comparisons, for those that have never used OS X (or XP), here is a rather good OS X vs XP feature comparison:
http://www.xvsxp.com/

Re: Wow, Calm down people!
by Dave on Fri 31st Oct 2003 16:02 UTC

My original comment was directed at the interview itself: He lists a number of operating systems that he has used, but the interview is so insubstantial that I had no reason to believe it. And when I said "all the Windows versions," I meant all of the versions he lists, my Aussie friend.

I don't have a problem with anyone's choice of technology. The thing that seems curious to me is that someone can conceivably just sit in front of a computer, mouve the mouse around a little, and then say "Oh, I've used that."

Technically this may be acceptable from a "Joe User" point-of-view, and a fair assessment of a system. But I'm not expecting anyone to manage a network or work with a development platform. I just think they should live with a system for a little while and get to know it.

I have to agree that managing Windows networks is a good way to cultivate an interest in the alternatives, although the newer versions may be more agreeable. But if you represent yourself as an ordinary user who prefers a certain platform and has experienced others, I hope by "experience" you mean actually used them for a little while to do the kind of work you ordinarily do. Then your thoughts might be a bit more insightful to me, although that may not be necessary to convince someone else who is looking to buy some hardware.

RE:  Mindless zombies
by Manik on Fri 31st Oct 2003 16:06 UTC

Probably because for most of them, and most of the time, it's true? It has been for me.

As for "switch", if you have a better word, it will be welcome.

RE: Here's a good OS comparison
by grapegraphics on Fri 31st Oct 2003 16:16 UTC

"Although I don't agree with some of the feature comparisons, for those that have never used OS X (or XP), here is a rather good OS X vs XP feature comparison:
http://www.xvsxp.com/"

Pretty good... now can we get add a couple of columns for SuSE, Mandrake and some other workable Linux distros... I'd LOVE to read that.

Jb

Re: Upgrade Path
by teknishn on Fri 31st Oct 2003 16:26 UTC

Sorry Mini-Me but you are wrong. I used to be a PC/Server manufacturer/systems integrator. I know they are cheaper. Doesnt matter if its Dell or Gateway either. x86 is built on standards like ATX etc. I change out my motherboard and cpu once a year with a good value chip for about 2 to 300 bucks tops. I upgrade memory every 2 to 3 years or as needed for very little money. I upgrade my video card for gaming purposes only every 2 years or so and prices can vary on those. Every once and a while I might need to upgrade a power supply or just get a new chassis....also less than 100 bucks. I can do all of this on a Dell or Gateway system just as I do on my own custom built system. How many Mac users can do that with their Mac hardware and at those prices? Its so expensive to upgrade a Mac that youre best bet is milking your outdated stuff as long as possible before buying a new one. Lets not forget that anyone can also build or buy a high speed x86 desktop for half the price of a good Mac. If not half the price.....still much less.

Since this is an upgrade path, software is also important. Apple doesnt offer an upgrade to Panther. Nope you want it, you have to shell out over 120 bucks for a new point release. Im also hearing that Panther is not doing so well with backwards compatibility to 10.2 apps either. I have 2 desktops at home, one runs Gentoo Linux and the other is XP for my gaming rig. Gentoo costs me nothing obviously and XP was paid for a long time ago and wont cost me another dime til Longhorn in 2006. In the meantime I get XP security updates, service packs and other point release type updates from MS for free. When Longhorn does finally ship the upgrade will cost about 1/2 what Apple charges.

And the final point Id like to make again is this: At the end of the day I can still do more for less on x86 than on a Mac. I use my computer for IM, email, web design stuff, development, internet surfing, gaming, and the occasional word processing or spreadsheet doc. I have no doubt that OSX is the prettiest and most polished desktop OS out there, but its not worth thousands more to be able to do the exact same things and without support for DirectX games.

RE:RE: Mindless zombies
by anon on Fri 31st Oct 2003 16:44 UTC

There is nothing wrong with liking your Mac, of course, but "It just works" is an ad slogan and in no way describes the way a computer functions. Certainly there are better words to describe your interactions with Apple products. The fact that some people repeat these words incessantly is disturbing. Imagine someone liking, for example, Campbell soup and describing it to everyone they know as being "mmm...mmm...good". It brings memories back from the "Stepford Wives" movie.

The "Switch" campaign is plastered all over Apple's website, thus it is a prime example of terms frequently over used by their most ardent supporters.

Re: Mindless zombies
by teknishn on Fri 31st Oct 2003 16:48 UTC

"Imagine someone liking, for example, Campbell soup and describing it to everyone they know as being "mmm...mmm...good"

rofl....thats the PERFECT analagy

Macs
by mindwarp on Fri 31st Oct 2003 16:58 UTC

Macs are so good that they even http://news.com.com/2100-1045_3-5099878.html?tag=nefd_top">erase without you even having to ask!

re: Reply to debman's typical elite responses
by debman on Fri 31st Oct 2003 17:18 UTC

Jace...first off, I read the post BEFORE the one in which you mention the G4...second...the get a new machine comment was based on the assumption that you were running older hardware LIKE A BEIGE G3!!

as for you claiming your problems...well, if you are running OS X on an oldr machine that was not built with that OS in mind, then get a new machine!!!


I run an Old G4...I have a G4 AGP 400 MHz power mac. it has a DVD-RAM in it. it is going on 5 years old now. OS X runs fine on her, so you either have:

1)a weird set-up with hackware runing
2)are using cheapo RAM sticks, and yes that does cause Crashing if you have bad RAM in any OS.
3)you box was hit by a power serge, and the power surge has damaged your Power supply which in turn is cause ing all sorts of problems resulting in crashes.

IMO, you have a hardware problem, either from faulty hardware purchased by you, or a damaged piece of hardware caused by a power surge that got through your protector.

BSOD's and PC's
by Fidelius on Fri 31st Oct 2003 17:27 UTC

I never entered a Mac vs. Windows "flame war" before because I think the whole matter stupid as hell. I won't buy a Mac not because I "hate" Macs but because I have a deep dislike for proprietary hardware. The fact that you have to buy everything from Apple just turns me off. THAT'S a monopoly if I ever saw one!

Now, on BSOD's, I think it's funny that people keep blaming MS for BSOD's when in more than 90% of the cases the problem lies in dodgy hardware (usually MB / Mem combos). Sure, XP is not bullet-proof when it comes to crashes, but neither is Linux (from MY experience), especially when you are in a hurry and have to wait for the computer to de-freeze (don't press the reset button or you can say goodbye to a lot of data). I am currently using a "custom-built" PC, to MY specification, and I didn't have a crash for almost a year (some freezing, but I never needed to reboot) in both XP and Linux! It's all up to the hardware! Macs will (obviously) crash less because the number of parts is far lower and the QA is done by Apple and they have no excuse for including dodgy parts at the price range they sell.

Gaming
by yutt on Fri 31st Oct 2003 17:33 UTC

I have no doubt that OSX is the prettiest and most polished desktop OS out there, but its not worth thousands more to be able to do the exact same things and without support for DirectX games.

I agree that gaming would be an issue for me as well. That's why I would never have a Mac as my primary computer. However, there are quite a few major games with Mac support. All of Blizzard's games come with PC/Mac versions out-of-the-box. Also, Aspyr (http://www.aspyr.com/games.php/mac/) officially ports a lot of games to the Mac. Splinter Cell, Jedi Knight 2, C&C Generals, Rainbow Six 3, and several others have official Mac support through Aspyr ports.

While it's nothing close to the library of games available for PC, you must admit the lineup isn't terrible.

re: Upgrade path
by mini-me on Fri 31st Oct 2003 17:59 UTC

Everything on the Mac is standard as well, with the exception of the motherboard. Apple manufactures that, but Video Cards, RAM, etc are just run of the mill products foumnd

 Re:Gaming
by debman on Fri 31st Oct 2003 18:17 UTC

I was surprised when I went to the Apple store on line and checked out the 3rd party software section, just how many games they have!!!

way more than they had a few years ago,

Hell Froze Over
by Rasmuskl on Fri 31st Oct 2003 18:17 UTC

No, I am not trying to, as people put it, 'spout Apple Marketing Slogans', but merely point out that Hell will indeed freeze over before any form of agreements are reached here.
Apple love their Macs and will say so.
Wintel people love their games and will never switch,
Linux and other Open Source people are 99% computer geeks and will never understand that most people don't want to write their own software and/or OS. Or tweak it etc.

Anyways (being a Mac user) i will continue using my TiBook, and long for my OS X.3 upgrade, try to switch my friends and co-workers (rather successfully) and help my Windows using friends with their defragmentations, reinstalls etc.

Let the hot winds of the Flames fly! HELL WILL NOT FREEZE OVER ;)

Wintels - $$$$ - Macs
by w on Fri 31st Oct 2003 19:24 UTC

I love to read about all the dumb things wintel lovers say about Macs. My favorite is always the COST issue!

“Macs cost too much… I would rather pay off my car…”.

I don’t know what world you wintel people live in but wintels are not cheep! There are cheep computers that have a cheep OS (XP home edition) but I hope you’re not comparing these junk computers to real ones.

Take this test.

#1. Go to the Dell web site and price out a good workstation.
#2. Go to the Apple web site and price a good workstation. (G5)

Wintels are price in the same ballpark and when you get down to “brass tacks” more often than not wintels are more $$$$ or you get more on a Mac at the same price.

What gives wintel lovers?

W

what I've noticed
by linuxlewis on Fri 31st Oct 2003 19:40 UTC

I've noticed that Macs and MacOSX tend to promote themselves. People are really enthusiastic about the OS and hardware weather they have a Mac or not.

People switching to Macs tend to be extremely loyal and a lot of people don't understand where this loyalty comes from which goes to show just how strong the brand is.

People aren't being brainwashed. Mac owners generally like their systems and PC owners are generally indifferent to unenthusiastic about PCs.

Its the perfect example of a good product promoting itself. It applies to Dells and IBM laptops so I don't see what people are perplexed by how loyal Mac owners are. They really like the brand.

Am so out of it
by Corax on Fri 31st Oct 2003 19:58 UTC

Two quick points.

1) OS X has a good UI built on UNIX foundation. The UNIX underneath is still as complex and fun as ever (mostly). They have not yet made UNIX easy to use except in its simplest forms. This is ok for most situations.

2) Am starting to admire Microsoft :| Yes, Gates and Balmer still sound like Gates and Balmer, plus the world wide legal hassles are well deserved. But it seems that little things are starting to creap into the rhetoric that indicates they may be listening. Just a little. Cool.

Re: true.. true..
by Brett Johnson on Fri 31st Oct 2003 21:24 UTC

> Mac OS has now borrowed several UI features that Windows has had
> since '95. For example:
> * The OS X dock == a spiffed up Windows taskbar
> * The new program switcher is Panther == Alt-tab in Windows

Actually these are carried over from NeXTStep. The dock was in in NeXTStep 0.8 in 1988. I cannot remember when CMD-Tab to rotate
among open apps appeared, but I remember it in NeXTStep 2.1 in '91.


> Also, what's with the way Mac OS has historically handled mice.
> What am I crippled! I'm not allowed to move the mouse more than
> 2 inches per second.

Variable mouse acceleration also comes from the NeXT software base.
If you move the mouse slowly, you get very fine precision. If you move
the mouse quickly, the pointer moves rapidly over large distances. A
quick jerk of the mouse can send the pointer up to the menu bar in a
flash.

HW and SW upgrades for fabled stability = waste of money
by Anonymous on Fri 31st Oct 2003 21:48 UTC

I use Linux and I don't write software. I'm a novelist. My wife uses Linux and she doesn't write software. She's in healthcare. We like it because it's free and updates to the OS and applications are free, and our machines are fast and stable.

People who shout "upgrade your os" or "upgrade your computer" miss the point. Why should someone have to keep throwing money at a tool in order to get the "newer better more stable" system that is always promised year after year?

What we like about Linux is we took our current, low-end systems and for no money turned them into solid, dependable workstations where the latest software is only a download away. No hardware upgrades needed.

PS: Photoshop runs on Linux, I use it from time to time.
PPS: OpenOffice has all the features that I need as a novelist and that my wife needs to do powerpoint-compatible presentations.
PPPS: cheap hardware is not necessarily bad, do your research. I have two bargain ECS k7S5A motherboards and they work great. I haven't upgraded my bargain-basement PCs in ages but I have zero problems.

Sweetness
by Charles on Sat 1st Nov 2003 02:01 UTC

I was test driving WinXP under virtual PC on a 17 inch PBG4 today, and, though the video emulation was slow, I was overall pleased. This could be help those who are transitioning to do so. I am not an advocate of the mac, other than that I think it is the tool that allows ME to best get my computing work done. I also have a pentium II win2k box for MS visual studio, and some other functions (generally) not work-related. That way, I use the mac to perform functions that are best suited to the mac, and the pc for functions that are best suited to the pc. If youve got beefy mac hardware, and dont game, VPC may allow you to perform tasks best performed in windows in VPC, and elimate the need for two sets of hardware. (a desirable setup in case of a laptop IMHO.)

To those who get all uptight- explore more options to find what works best for YOU, but dont poo-poo anothers choices, (well, maybe if they have cheap hardware.) You may find the results to be awesome, and by awesome, I mean totally sweet. ( http://www.realultimatepower.net/ )

Double everything
by Harry Lake on Sat 1st Nov 2003 02:22 UTC

The gateway gives you twice what the Mac offers and a monitor.

Gateway® 710X
Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 3.00GHz 512MB memory 17" LCD flat panel 160GB HD DVD±RW/ ±R/ CD-RW Recorder and 16x DVD-ROM $1999.99



1.6GHz PowerPC G5 800MHz frontside bus 512K L2 cache
256MB DDR333 128-bit SDRAM 80GB Serial ATA SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra 64MB DDR video memory
56K internal modem $1,999.00

RE: Harry Lake
by ACK!! on Sat 1st Nov 2003 05:02 UTC

Ok he has a point about the price breaks lately. If you compare Sony Viao's to Powerbooks the differences start to look at little lighter.

But, the real killer for the Macs versus the PCs in Desktop realms turns out to be the specs. You get twice the RAM with the PC (System and Video), twice the hard drive space ... etc.. etc..

That sucks nuts people.

BTW, I like Macs. I am tired of crappy PC hardware. I have used Gateways, Dells, Compaq, HP the list goes on and on.. There is only bit of PC hardware that gets the kind of no-complaint love that Mac hardware gets from its owners. That was the old Sony Vaios but even they feel cheaper and more flimsy like Sony is coasting on the name alone now.

I know the difference when a company puts together a tight machine. I use to work off an old Sparc Ultra 5 workstation back in the day and those things were built like bricks next to the typical PC desktop. Felt the same way the last time I was on a Mac desktop at work about two years ago.

Go to one of those Gateway stores and type awhile and toy with one of their laptops. Then go to an Apple store or Compuseless and do the same with a Mac. If you can't tell the difference in quality and the way the two machines are built then there is no hope for you.

Is it worth the difference in price if you upgraded all the things you listed? I don't think so myself and wish both the specs and the prices were more in line with the PC world.

In laptops I got the difference between a Sony Vaio and a 15" inch Powerbook priced out about $200 bucks. At that level next time I look for a notebook I have to seriously look at a Mac.

With my new job that ain't happening soon, I get a new Compaq laptop (last time I used one they were pieces of stinking shite) and I get a new Sun Workstation.

I might post a review of the Sun Workstation and what it takes to use one as a decent workstation machine with all the fixing like Gnome and Evolution and all that.


Smart move sunshine
by CooCooCaChoo on Sat 1st Nov 2003 08:38 UTC

Harry Lake (IP: ---.ne.client2.attbi.com) - Posted on 2003-11-01 02:22:02
The gateway gives you twice what the Mac offers and a monitor.

Gateway® 710X - Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition, Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 3.00GHz, 512MB memory, 17" LCD flat panel 160GB HD, DVD±RW/ ±R/ CD-RW Recorder and 16x DVD-ROM $1999.99


Purchasing a PC from a vendor in a worse financial shape than SUN and SGI put together.

Heck, why don't you buy some discount Enron shares whilst you're at it.

A PowerMac is a workstation, you want to compare like with like, compare it to a Dell Precision or IBM Intellistation.

Re: Smart move sunshine
by Harry Lake on Sat 1st Nov 2003 12:45 UTC

From Dell are they in financial trouble too?

Base Model Includes:
Intel Pentium 4 processor at 3.0GHz w/ 800FSB

Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition

512MB Dual Channel DDR SDRAM at 400MHz

17" (16.0"vis) Monitor

80GB Ultra ATA Hard Drive

128MB Nvidia GeForce FX 5200

$1,599

Response to randall flagg 's comments
by Jace on Sat 1st Nov 2003 14:52 UTC

"BSOD, viruses, vulnerabilties, cryptic error messages and Windows in general are good enough reasons for most people. I don't understand why people are surprised with his comments. Most people are frustrated with PCs and if not they are generally indifferent. The people that are not are usually more technically inclined to fix their problems and even these people get frustrated."

Am I the only one that gets cryptic error messages on Mac OS X? For example: instead of saying "Copy Problem: Files with more than 31 characters in their names cannot be copied to HFS Standard volumes. Please rename the file and try again" it just quits the operation with a message of "An error of type -50 ocurred." It took me about 10 days of experiencing this on and off before I figured it out on my own what this cryptic message meant.

"I'm not saying that Macs and MacOSX is perfect but if you give it a real test drive most usually find that its better than what you are normally accustomed to."

What I'm accustomed to... More like, what I've been spoiled by. BeOS has really spoiled me with the overall user-experience. Prior to that, I was accustomed to Windows and Classic Mac OS. Going to Windows or OS X from BeOS is frustrating. Going from Classic to OS X is frustrating.

I use OS X for the same reason I use Windows XP: there's far far far more hardware and software supported there than on the OS I personally prefer. I have given MacOS X a real test drive. That's why I bought it. To find out for myself. I work with it daily. My experience has been bad, but it is no better or worse than Windows XP. When people make comments about Windows XP being rock solid and not doing BSODs, I get annoyed the same as I get annoyed with people who claim the Mac experience is any better.

Reply to debman
by Jace on Sat 1st Nov 2003 15:00 UTC

Seems my Mac is only a small step above your G4 AGP (which you seem to have no OSX problems with). Ours is a G4 AGP with a 450MHz processor. Once again, it's an "Apple accepted" OSX computer and there is no hackware. Believe it or don't.

As for memory... I suppose I could swap out the memory if I have some spares that are compatible. But then, wont I be "doing a no-no" by not using "Apple certified" hardware? (yes, that is partially sarcastic) I'm not going to buy new memory to see if the existing memory is somewhat screwy. Especially if all the problems I have are with OS X only. Is OSX that much more brittle with flakey memory? Most of the problems I have in OSX are in direct comparison to acceptable functionality in OS9 (like my USB LS-120 drive, which works perfectly in OS9).

Jace - Then you have a hardware problem
by Safari on Sat 1st Nov 2003 21:35 UTC


If those things are indeed happening to you running OS X, then you either have some bad RAM or some other hardware problem.

It's not "just you", it's just that it doesn't happen unless you have an underlying problem.

After over a year of running an iBook, two PowerBooks, a 17in iMac and an upgraded Power Computing, and hitting them full tilt with everything that a power user can, I can say that I had **ONE** kernel panic in all that time.

That doesn't mean that apps don't go down occasionally, Safari for a while was a major crash-hound. But they never took the system down, just the app, a force-quit was the worst that would happen.

No, OS X ain't perfect, but it's damn solid, and problems like yours almost always come down to either bad RAM or a failure of some piece of hardware.

As if rajan's true agenda wasn't clear
by Safari on Sat 1st Nov 2003 22:03 UTC


>>>. But hands down, I would choose Classic over OS X anytime. (And Dock isn't the only reason)<<<

The only people who would choose Classic over OX X "anytime" are:

1) Windows fanboys who post in every single story about Apple or Mac's.

2) Apple fanboys who are so stuck in their rut that any OS that doesn't have static memory is inferior

3) Trolls who simply hate Apple like rajan


Fidelius says:
by Safari on Sat 1st Nov 2003 22:32 UTC


>>>I won't buy a Mac not because I "hate" Macs but because I have a deep dislike for proprietary hardware. The fact that you have to buy everything from Apple just turns me off<<<

So, will you never buy a Sony PlayStation, with your definition it is a "monopoly".

Same with the X-Box.

How about Tivo? Will they let you build your own?

Damn, I want to get Cable TV, but their converter box only works with their software! Monopoly!

Same with DirectTV! Monopoly!

I wanted to get one of those satellite radio systems, but they are also a monopoly, once you buy it YOU ARE TIED INTO THEIR PROPRIETARY SYSTEM!!!

So I completely agree with you, Apple is way too proprietary, and certainly a monopoly!

(note to self, where do these idiots come from?)

Pile it on, dig it deeper, shovel some more
by Safari on Sat 1st Nov 2003 23:01 UTC


>>>As for memory... I suppose I could swap out the memory if I have some spares that are compatible. But then, wont I be "doing a no-no" by not using "Apple certified" hardware? (yes, that is partially sarcastic) I'm not going to buy new memory to see if the existing memory is somewhat screwy. Especially if all the problems I have are with OS X only. Is OSX that much more brittle with flakey memory? Most of the problems I have in OSX are in direct comparison to acceptable functionality in OS9 (like my USB LS-120 drive, which works perfectly in OS9)<<<

You're kidding me, you have an LS-120 drive hooked up?

What, do you have a Syquest 44/88 hooked up also?

Forgive me if I no longer pay any attention, I thought perhaps you had a shred of credibility, and weren't just a sour, Apple-hating troll.

And if you don't want to find out if it's bad memory, then STFU, trouble-shooting is what you have to do with any computer, it would take you less time to take out a module at a time and see how things went than the time you spend on these forums bitching about how bad OS X is.

Isn't it funny how the same few individuals show up on every Mac discussion, always with the same story about how they use both platforms, and always with the same bias.

WTF?

JohnnyFive
by B_Bop on Sun 2nd Nov 2003 03:28 UTC

But, let's call a spade a spade here. Mac OS has now borrowed several UI features that Windows has had since '95. For example:

* The OS X dock == a spiffed up Windows taskbar
* The new program switcher is Panther == Alt-tab in Windows
Nope...Next Os had a dock i forget what it was called.
Had it in Mac OS 8.5...read that this has been around since 1985.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---
Also, what's with the way Mac OS has historically handled mice. What am I crippled! I'm not allowed to move the mouse more than 2 inches per second. I heard this is fixed in Panther, but before this release: Apple, get a clue!
---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---
Change the mouse settings in the control panel. I'm a graphic artist and regularly use the mouse to draw with. I have used both Windows & Mac. The accuracy of the Macs mouse is far superior to Windows. I can draw with this thing accurately. The Windows mouse is jumpy & erratic. You should get a clue. You obviously do not know what you are talking about. What UI innovations have happened at MS? Name some. Each time they seem to ad something new I've already had that function for 3-5 years on the Mac. Ignorance is bliss. Shortcuts? Nope. Apple had aliases (same as shortcuts) 5 years earlier. Start menu...Apple menu totally customizeable in System 7 (predates Win 95). The dock Next OS & probably other Unix systems before that. How about how you resize Windows by dragging from the corner? Came from Apple. Drag & Drop. The list goes on & on. Like you said plenty of people have made contributions to the UI. Some a hell of alot more than others. You are comparing an avalance of ideas to a snowball of ideas & a borrowed one at that. If you are intereted do some research. MS even stole code from Quicktime to get Windows media player working properly.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/1048.html
http://www.mackido.com/Interface/ui_history.html
About the mouse comment:
http://www.mackido.com/Interface/ui_mouse.html


Butgra
by B_Bop on Sun 2nd Nov 2003 03:48 UTC

Apple has acknowlegded thes bugs & is going to fix them as they always have in the past.

Even Microsoft doesn't dare to such things nowdays. Yeah, Okay.

So you imply they have done it in the past. Why is that better?

More elitist arrogance... reply to Safari
by Jace on Sun 2nd Nov 2003 19:16 UTC

"You're kidding me, you have an LS-120 drive hooked up?
What, do you have a Syquest 44/88 hooked up also?"


Are you that ignorant, elitist and arrogant?? LS-120 is actually a newer technology compared to Zip drives; do you go bashing Mac users who still have Zip Drives as standard issue on their G4 computers? The LS-120 drive I own is a "designed for Mac" piece of hardware (it's got the iMac look and all, for whatever that matters). There's a HUGE difference between Syquest 44/88 removable hard disk cartridges and LS-120 (in fact, those old winchesters are probably 100 times faster than LS-120, Zip and the best Mac "Superdrive"). In fact, since you want to bring up old Syquest technology in your anti-me-rant... The Syquest EZ-135 was the direct competitor to the Zip drive. But who cares about accuracy... You're only interested in being sarcastic. Well, the parameters of your sarcasm are out of date.

Can you believe it? I own a Syquest EZ-135 drive too. I am sooooo uncool!

If you really believe that people should throw away perfectly good hardware just because something more "cool" has come along then that's pretty damned sad. But once again, how clever of you elitists to redirect the focus of the topic. You don't want to touch on the issue that the hardware works PERFECTLY in OS9 while it sucks on OSX. No, you want to attack me for having such "arcane" hardware. A little growing up may be in order, Safari.

<sarcasm>"But OSX is a different OS! It's not from the same code base as OS9!",</sarcasm>

Yeah, let's just ignore the little fact that Apple themselves have marketed OSX as a direct successor and upgrade path FROM OS9. So I don't want to hear this excuse again. OSX should not do ANYTHING in an inferior manner compared to classic Mac OS.

"Forgive me if I no longer pay any attention, I thought perhaps you had a shred of credibility, and weren't just a sour, Apple-hating troll."

What exactly has changed your opinion of me? The fact that I have an LS-120 drive??? Are you that shallow? Are you a mindless bigot in the real world, too? The trolling here is being done by elitists like yourself.

"And if you don't want to find out if it's bad memory, then STFU,"

Do you want to pay for new memory sticks for me to troubleshoot this situation? When did it become acceptable to waste money? Oh yes, I should have DVD-R and memory sticks up the wazoo instead of the old, sinful LS-120 drive. Since you seem to be able to afford all the new cool stuff, would you like to donate?

"...trouble-shooting is what you have to do with any computer,"

It's sad that you believe this is natural. Do you troubleshoot every new car you buy? Every new refridgerator? Stereo? DVD player? And don't give me the "computers are extremely complex devices" nonsense. The computer industry has successfully spread the meme that the very nature of computers means that they will never work up to the standard of reliability that any other industry's product does. <sarcasm>Oh but let's not talk about this... that might make people uncomfortable and make me look like a trolling whiner who's only goal is to start arguments and bash Apple. Yeah, that's it. Let's shoot the messenger. </sarcasm>

"...it would take you less time to take out a module at a time and see how things went than the time you spend on these forums bitching about how bad OS X is."

You don't even know what you're talking about. You have no idea what my system problems are and you're not really interested. Your interest is in being right. In showing how the only problems that Macs have are caused by stupid trolling whiners who are so dumb that they actually want to use equipment made for a Mac. All you care about is that I have something older than what you deem cool. You don't care that none of these problems exist when running OS9. You don't care that the majority of the problem behaviors indicate bad OS and application code, not bad hardware. You, nor anyone else, have once responded to the cryptic error messages that I've pointed out. You're only motivation is to be right (as much as you must redirect, ignore and plug your eyes and ears) and to make sure that someone like me doesn't share with others how greener the grass is NOT looking on the Mac side of the fence. How dare I offend you by pointing out flaws that I deem unacceptable in commercial product. You want me to bash BeOS, too? I'd be up for that if it would make you feel like I'm being fair. Oh, yes, here we go:

"Isn't it funny how the same few individuals show up on every Mac discussion, always with the same story about how they use both platforms, and always with the same bias.

Since you seem to know everything... what's this so-called bias that I have? Preference for Windows? HAH! Pal, you don't know me at all and you've not paid attention to anything other than my hardware list and the fact that I'm sick of dealing with endless problems. Windows, MacOS, whatever. It's all the same damn story. My problems actually come from trying to use the Mac and the PC together, in peaceful co-existence. That's why I have an LS-120 drive in all of my computers. That's why I use FAT formatted disks sometimes. I DO use both platforms every day. Call me a liar? Fine.

"WTF?"

Yes, exactly. WTF. You're not saying anything. You're just barking and spitting. It's like I wounded you or something. Strangely enough, you're doing this barking and spitting right after you made a moderate posting to me about possibly having bad hardware. Now suddenly, after reading the next posting from me that tells what one of my pieces of hardware is, I don't deserve any "respect" because I'm just a whining, trolling, outdated leper with unacceptable hardware, who has a bias against... whatever you think my bias is. WTF indeed.

Thanks for the continuing illustration of just how mindless and arrogant people in the computer using community can be when trying to make themselves look knowledgeable. This elitist attitude only compounds the stereotypes of tech people.

Whenever I come in here to counter the blitheful "everything's greener on the Mac side" comments, the only responses I get are from the people who apparently take it personally (WHY??). People who want to tell me I'm a whiner and a troll and that I must be lying or an idiot. GREAT ATTITUDES.

I have received a few polite messages about swapping memory and I thank the kind folks who were polite; however, I do not think memory is the issue. Especially when half of my complaints are with inherent design choices on Apple's part. Hello, someone already posted here confirming that floppy support SUCKS in OSX. Now suddenly I'm the only one who dares to use floppies? And... It isn't bad memory that makes OS X provide cryptic and meaningless error messages.

B_Bop's "you're clueless" statements..
by Jace on Sun 2nd Nov 2003 19:22 UTC

"Change the mouse settings in the control panel. I'm a graphic artist and regularly use the mouse to draw with. I have used both Windows & Mac. The accuracy of the Macs mouse is far superior to Windows. I can draw with this thing accurately. The Windows mouse is jumpy & erratic. You should get a clue. You obviously do not know what you are talking about."

OS X, prior to Panther, does not allow you to set the mouse speed as fast as can be set on Windows or BeOS or most other OSes. This is the complaint. Because you are comfortable with the available settings, that does not make anyone who isn't comfortable with it clueless. I hate the Mac OS mouse tracking speed. I guess I'm clueless and don't know what I'm talking about. As for accuracy... I've been doing graphic arts on Windows OSes for years and have found the pointer movement to be far more comfortable. With the Windows settings, I don't need to move the mouse so much on my workspace. With the Mac, I constantly am feeling held back and forced to move the mouse in ways that are uncomfortable and inefficient. But I must be clueless, right? Sure I am.

More elitist responses to honest complaints against the Mac's behaviors. How dare we. We must be trolls.

RE: Oh jeez... not again OSNews!
by extort on Sat 8th Nov 2003 11:59 UTC

well you have to think it wouldnt be amazing easy for apple to release os X for x86... even if they could use the BSD modules for x86 hardware, they still have to provide technical support for everything, which would be a huge headache for them. and altering it to run on a 32bit processor would be even more of a pain that apple does not need to take, id assume it would be a waste of money and time and support to attempt to run os X on an x86.

but thats just my oppinion