Novell is talking to a number of OEMs about getting its upcoming SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10 preinstalled on the hardware systems they ship. But while Ron Hovsepian, Novell’s president and chief operating officer, said the company had nothing to announce in this regard at its annual BrainShare conference here, Novell is talking to a number of key vendors like Dell in this regard. “I know there is an opportunity here and we are working on the how and the when,” he said in a media and analyst question and answer session. The delay of Vista could not have come at a better time for Novell, in this regard.
Wow, using the word “regard” 3 times in the description. Ok, I’m over that. Didn’t Microsoft get chastized and slapped with an antitrust case for making these same kinds of deals? What makes Novell think they can do it and get away with it?
Um, why’d they get slapped just for pre-loading software on a machine?
Would be very interesting to see if Novell manage to pull this one off. They do have a Window of opportunity now that Vista has gotten delayed. Here at Brainshare I’m using the kids’ laptop that has Windows XP on it, but compared to the beta of Suse 10 that’s on nearly all Brainshare machines it looks and feels positively antique.
Maybe they’ll announce something at the keynote tomorrow; I’ll keep you posted (on http://www.bertplat.nl/brainshare2006 )
Edited 2006-03-24 01:02
A little update here…
I just came out a session with Guy Lenardi on What’s Next for the Enterprise Linux Desktop, and I asked outright if any OEMs were going to preinstall SLED10. The answer was: ‘I can’t tell you. I’m not allowed to talk about that. Yes, we’re talking with a number of vendors, the one you’d expect. You’ve seen that HP and IBM have had a large presence here, but others as well.’
Make of that what you will.
Chap from Dell was sitting right in front of me, though, and he turned around, gave me his card and said to be sure and leave a message if I was interested in having SLED10 preinstalled on Dell. After the session, we talked a bit more, and he said that the main problem for Dell would be in getting the personnel required to support such an animal. What support personnel they have for Linux right now is geared towards (semi-)experts. Supporting the average end user will take a bit more than that.
I found out from both Dell and HP that even though neither offers SUSE Linux on their home consumer line of laptops and desktops replies back from the presales department confirmed warrenty support is not void if a customer decides to install SUSE Linux. Though they both replied the same that at this time while considering SUSE Linux the issue is either to have technical support related to the OS directed to Novell or to have Dell and HP handle OS issues. For me while it would be ideal to go to one vendor for all my issues I’m also used to having multiple support options (ie: hardware, OS, applications). So if I have a hardware issue then it would not be unreasonable to contact the vendor such as Dell and if it’s OS related Novell technical support is available.
Hopefully in the near future we’ll see both Dell and HP offering SUSE Linux not only for home consumers but also for the enterprise. One reason I hope for this is I do believe consumers would like to have more options when configuring systems. Another reason is lower TCO as Microsoft Windows cost more than SUSE Linux and offers little to the consumer with out spending even more money on third party software such as AV and spyware software to keep Windows secure. There’s other reasons but I’m sure everyone understands my point.
As for games which I’m sure some readers are thinking about understand game developers are now porting more games to run natively on Linux. Even though Novell packages free Wine from wineHQ.com with SUSE Linux I believe it would help the commercial version of their distribution to include Cedega (See http://www.transgaming.com/ ) a commercial version of Wine designed specifically for games. Otherwise a suggestion for Novell is to further develope WineTOOLS a free GUI frontend for Wine then package it with SUSE Linux.
Edited 2006-03-25 01:53
I thought they got slapped with an antitrust case for apparently blocking others from doing this. There’s nothing wrong with bundling your product, its sabotaging the competition that is wrong. The problem comes when proving that it is happening, this is expensive, costly and time consuming on such a large scale.
Edited 2006-03-24 01:42
“Didn’t Microsoft get chastized and slapped with an antitrust case for making these same kinds of deals? What makes Novell think they can do it and get away with it?”
Actually no. Microsoft got slapped for making it difficult for OEM’s to bundle any other OS with thier product by removing the product discount so OEM’s would have to pay the regular price for Windows.
Actually, no.
MS got slapped because they bundled the browser and other software with the OS without a way for OEMs to remove it and sell something else. Such as Opera instead of IE and Helix instead of WMP. OEMs already bundle Works or Openoffice to keep down the price.
The OEM OS restrictions were brought in court but got dismissed quickly. And that’s unfortunate, because *that* would have been the real case over which to sue.
Besides, OEM contracts were declared “commercial secret” by Microsoft (utter idiocy), so using them as proof would have required specific requests by the judges.
I know at one point Microsoft used Linux as a defense, saying something to the effect that they aren’t a monopoly because Linux is competition. Well, here’s the competition.
Because Microsoft also got away with it/is still getting away with it?
Novell has made leaps and bounds with SLED, especially with projects such as Mono, Evolution, and Banshee, which previously have been lacking in the world of open source. Their configuration tools are also top notch. The only thing that bothers me is the lack of an apt-like system for installing software and updating packages. Were such a system put in place, SLED would be well-ahead of many other distros and OSes IMO.
> The only thing that bothers me is the lack of an
> apt-like system for installing software and updating
> packages.
apt, apt, apt. Rule #1: If there’s a Linux with a package manager other than apt, complain.
As some people might know, apt does not support bi-arch situations and is therefore unsuitable for a product like SLED that is actually a bi-arch system at least on some hardware architectures. Neither the original DPKG variant nor the port to RPM supports it.
For the DPKG variant, no bi-arch support is planned mostly because many of the developers working on it claim that “lib64 is ugly and should never have been there; we need something more universal” failing to see that the bi-arch systems currently in use do actually work quite well.
For the RPM backend, the situation is even worse: It’s completely unmaintained for the above reason. But that’s not too much of a problem because a successor, called SmartPM, is already there. It has an apt-like command line syntax and a GUI that looks exactly like Synaptic. In fact, it was written by the same person that wrote Synaptic. This person is also the same one that ported apt to RPM. It supports bi-arch systems, and it’s supported by Novell.
Furthermore, yum is not a “reinvention of the wheel”, it’s quite different. It implements some features that are missing from apt and misses some others – but it was chosen by Red Hat because it fits better into their product. The same is the case for Novell and SmartPM.
Not only apt, but also yum in Fedora has supported bi-arch installs for a long time now.
I mean, c’mon … a delay of 8 weeks with Vista isn’t going to cause OEMs to say, “Gee … why don’t we give Novell a call, instead”. Gotta applaud them for trying, though.
!!!
Maybe not…
The delay makes them unable to release Vista before christmas time, so Ms could loose a big purchasing season there!
So, people wanting a new computer before Christmas, could realise that SuSe and many other Linux distros are actually superior to Windos, and buy a PC with “Linux inside”…
Many of them will… I bet.
Angel–Fr@gzill@
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!!!
Maybe not…
The delay makes them unable to release Vista before christmas time, so Ms could loose a big purchasing season there!
So, people wanting a new computer before Christmas, could realise that SuSe and many other Linux distros are actually superior to Windows, and buy a PC with “Linux inside”…
Many of them will… I bet.
Angel–Fr@gzill@
!!!
True, but the delay is a lot bigger than you think. December is the time when a huge number of computer sales happen. That 8 week delay means Vista won’t be under anyone’s Christmas tree and thus is a significant delay on Vista’s adoption. Any delay in Vista’s adoption is an opportunity for alternatives to step in and fill the gap.
Considering the momentum of OSS, when vista is released, it will be lightyears delayed. Time to buy a Suse and an OpenBSD cd 🙂
Didn’t Microsoft get chastized and slapped with an antitrust case for making these same kinds of deals? What makes Novell think they can do it and get away with it?
The >1% market share of Linux?
The only thing that bothers me is the lack of an apt-like system for installing software and updating packages.
Then why don’t they base their distribution on Debian? They are free to do so. But instead they’ll most likely reinvent the wheel (like Redhat did with yum).
>> The >1% market share of Linux?
Doesn’t Windows have greater than one percent of market also?
“The >1% market share of Linux?”
Good point…
“Then why don’t they base their distribution on Debian? They are free to do so. But instead they’ll most likely reinvent the wheel (like Redhat did with yum).”
About re-inventing the wheel…they are: it’s called rug.
Well, on my dual amd64 as it stands right now,
– Ubuntu (Dapper) can’t boot into the 2 most recent kernels due to a kernel panic and various “window not responding Force Quit” in Gnome issues.
– FC5 has no 3D accelleration for nForce boards due to a snafu at the end of the release cycle.
– OpenSUSE has xgl, 3D, stability, ttf, and good integration.
Why shouldn’t I deploy it on my machines that interact with the Universities Novel/Winblows systems?
To be honest I don’t know what the point of your post was in the context of this topic, but here goes:
– Ubuntu Dapper is not released yet, today’s comparison would be with the latest stable version. Tomorrow’s comparison can be done with Ubuntu 6.06.
– FC5 doesn’t support 3D accell on nVidia cards because there are no free drivers to support that. If you download the drivers from nVidia you’ll also need to update the OS, big deal.
– openSUSE also doesn’t ship nVidia’s proprietary drivers.
Actually, my comparisons are relevant:
– Dapper is not released yet and OpenSUSE 10.1 is still in beta as well (beta 8 in fact).
– FC5 (release) Does not support 3D under nvidia nForce for amd64 even _WITH_ the nvidia drivers and the fix for the problem in kernel-2.6.15-1.2054_FC5.x86_64 (? by memory as it was wiped from my drive earlier today) is scheduled for some ‘upcoming release’ where we can actually install the nvidia drivers if necessary.
– OpenSUSE is using ‘nvidia’ and works correctly.
I don’t see the relevance in the topic of Novell entering the OEM desktop market. Fedora and openSUSE have nothing to do with it, though Ubuntu is a competitor.
– Like Dapper, 10.1 beta8 is a beta. Which means both have bugs, but you pointed out the bugs of one of the them and ignored the bugs of the other.
– FC5 needs an update to support proprietary Linux drivers. That update is available unofficially from Red Hat and will be available officially in a matter of days.
– I thought openSUSE was the “Open Source Software edition” version of SUSE Linux? I don’t see proprietary software in there.
you only need to do a click to install nvidia driver via you……
If I were a few months away from a potential bankrupcy filing, I would create a press release like this too.
It won’t work. People in general want to buy their computer and have it just work with whatever games or programs they buy. Pop in the CD and it automatically installs for them. Look around almost any store and all the software is for Windows. Besides that Linux is still just too hard to use for most people. I think it’s been tried already, wasn’t Wal-Mart selling Linux PCs for a while? For the niche market that can use Linux or wants it, those are the usually the people that build their own computer and download the nix of their choice to install on it. I’m afraid Microsoft has nothing to worry about.
I agree, the lack of software suitable for home users is a problem. But what about companies? The Novell Linux offerings comes with a lot of software suitable for business use. This is also in this setting that Novell has its broadest brand recognition.
You also have to keep in mind that what makes Linux difficult to most people is that they have to install it for themselves, as opposed to windows that comes preinstalled. In this case we are talking about a preinstalled Linux. So no difficulty here.
Another difficulty is unsupported hardware. This is not a problem as Linux would be bundled with hardware that works. No difficulty here either.
The third problem people use to mention when they say Linux is hard is the lack of media multimedia support. This is due to legal problems when releasing free Linux distros. This will not be a problem in this case. People will be paying for these boxes, and some of that money could be used for licensing this kind of software
so that it could be preinstalled, just like on windows.
As for popping in a CD and have automagic installation like in windows, I’m not entirely sure that this is a good thing. You never know what software that gets installed next time you listen to a CD.
Besides, software installation in Linux is actually much easier in Linux than it is in Windows. Most Linux distros have automated net based installation system that finds and installs and once installed keeps track of the software you need.
You don’t hunt all over the internet to find what you need as software is collected in repositories. This means that software installation in Linux is often as easy as checking a checkbox. No CDs, no extra work to find it. It all behaves very much like windows update on steroids.
You also have to remember that the modern Linux desktop is a lot different than what it was when Wal-Mart started selling Linux boxes. Today, it do just work. Most of the problem people have when first installing Linux springs from the fact that they didn’t buy their hardware with Linux in mind.
So, I think Novell could be succesful if they manage to get some OEM company to cooperate.
I agree, the lack of software suitable for home users is a problem.
Last time I checked, most people do the majority of their “home computing” in only a couple of applications, a web browser, an email client, a word processor, a spreadsheet program (occasionally), viewing pdfs and listening to music or watching videos.
When my wife made the transition with me to Linux, she had zero problems. We had used Firefox in Windows, we use Firefox in Linux. We used Gmail for email, so no problem there. For word processing and spreadsheet, we use OpenOffice.org (and for most people who just write letters and manage small spreadsheets for budgets, it works fine). For PDFs, yep we still have Adobe Reader. Music is handled by Beep Media Player and video is handled by VLC or MPlayer. Done and done.
I will concede that when she has to write a paper for school, she will use MS Office since it has grammar check. I know that Abiword has grammar check, but formatting is often messed up when you have professors who require papers turned in as .doc and OO.o does not have grammar check support. Minor detail, so I keep it around for her.
Things have gotten extremely easy compared to what they used to be. One morning, I found the computer off. I asked my wife if she had turned it off and she said, “Yes, I shut it down.” With a wave of panic washing over me, I ask, “How”, to which she replied, I went to this menu and clicked there and selected Shut Down. I never showed her that. She figured it out on her own and she’s a technophobe! Minor, I know, but the areas that used to be really bad (printing) are getting much better. I could go on and on.
// I went to this menu and clicked there and selected Shut Down. I never showed her that. She figured it out on her own and she’s a technophobe!//
Er … and how do you suppose she figured that out? By using Windows.
So, it was good for at least one thing, I guess. 🙂
I may be missing something here, but last year 2005 I tried Autopackage and it worked like a charm on Xandros and FC4. It seems that a generic package manager would do wonders for Linux.
Synaptic and apt-get and Yum are very good, but a package manager which is easy to use and installs on every Distro would be nice.
penguin7009
Novell hired some of the best minds in Open Source (miguel, nat, Ximian, Robert Love!) and then bought a great distro (SuSE). So far, they haven’t shown much of a vision and people always gripe about it.
It seems like SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop will be the answer to that. OpenOffice that can read visual basic macros (heavily used in accounting firms), new gnome applications menu with integrated beagle, out of the box mp3 support with banshee, amazing effects using Xgl/compiz, the newer gnome with everying that “Just Works TM” thanks to Project Utopia, etc… Novell is positioning themselves to have the best corporate Linux offering and eclipsing redhat workstation.
Provided that they market all of the great new features I see SLED selling quite nicely. I personally will buy a copy just to support Novell.
!!!
Novell Wants the OEM Desktop… and they just could start to get it…
They deserve it at least. They have one of the easiest, nicer (eye candy) and more solid distros out there. With plenty of programs, and much more in the repositories. They are also inventing ans giving back to the OpenSource-Libre software comunity (although, not perfect, and projects such as Mono, Evolution, and Banshee, were not created by Novell, Suse, but bought and incorprated to the company).
Their distro is superior to Windows XP, No doubt!
And if you get the commercial version, you mostly get rid off of the somme lacks about propietary software not included in OpenSuse and in many distros.
I just would like them to compile it to be quicker…
Anyway even without some propietary software, many or most of the Linux and BSD distros are already superior to Windows XP…
I have several PCs and I’m forced to use Windows in 2 of them, but any Debian, Suse or almost any Linux, or BSD distro is better than Windows for a too large number of reasons to expose here…
For instance, people complain about not having DVD capabilities out of the Box in Many Linux distros, not included for Legal reasons.
Well, you do not have decent DVD out of the Box in Windows neither… You have to install WinDVD or Power DVD…
You have to install Nero, and many multimedia codecs, and, Office, Adobe acrobat, update Flash, and many patches and security, and so on…
You have to install also the propietary drivers for Nvidia and ATI, because those included in Windows XP do not include OpenGL, for instance, what does prevent you for playing plenty of very good and know games (Quake, Wolfenstein, and DOOM series, Unreal, Enemmy Territory, etc.)…
Summarizing… You have to install almost the whole stuff after the Windows OS installation, and never ending installing and patching…
Windows is much less out of the box than most Linux distros. Windows is actually LESS “Destop ready” than Linux.
What happens is that more people is Windows savy than Linux savy, and they can get through the painfull process of patching and improving the system better. Or if not, they can find people to help them (friends, in the office …) more easyly.
Is this better than any Linux distro… IMHO the answer is NOT, is NOT better at all
So, the more people use Linux, BSD, any other OS, Distros… the quicker and easier they will solve the system problems that any OS have, since nothing is perfect, and everything can be improved…
In an imperfect world, close the “Windows” to the most imperfect systems, and “open” the door to what is open, and more perfect…
Angel–Fr@gzill@
!!!
Thats my question; if Dell were to offer it, on their latest wizz bang desktop, and lets say, for all intensive purposes, all hardware is supported flawlessly – so what now? where are the applications? the Adobes, Macromedias, Quickens, MYOB”s and Corels of the world.
All very nice getting your operating system on the desktop, but bloody useless if there is absolutely NO commercial applications for mainstream desktop users such as myself.
!!!
“so what now? where are the applications? the Adobes, Macromedias, Quickens, MYOB”s and Corels of the world.
All very nice getting your operating system on the desktop, but bloody useless if there is absolutely NO commercial applications for mainstream desktop users such as myself.”
—-
The apllications are there in big number…
Only if you need very specific applications, for very specific task you will not find an equivalent application in Linux for the Windows apllications!
If you read my former post you will get a better idea…
–Adobe Acrobat reader has a Linux version, and there are also programs to substitute Reader. There are programs too to create PDF files.
–There are open source Linux Flash substitutes in the “oven”, but since visiting websites with Flash is a pain in the a$$, not sure if this technology is vey convenient…
–Corel.. Corel what?? Corel Office, Corel Draw ??
You have Open Office Org.
–ForCorel Draw and other Graphics of all kinds you have Inkscape, Sodipodi, Blender, PovRay, CinePaint…
–For Photoshop. Well the GIMP Is very good, not yet 100 % substitute of Photoshop, but about 90 % of it. But you hav also “GIMPShop” (http://www.gimpshop.net/ and http://blog.yumdap.net/archives/20-GIMPshop-for-Windows.html), much ssimilar to Photoshop, and you have also PIXEL (comercial), that runs in many OSs and will overtake Photoshop in the near future future.
–For Quicken. Well, try Gnucash (www.gnucash.org.), also moneydance (moneydance.com), which is java-based.
More applications??? everyday they are comming out, and the propietary, monopolistic soft will notice that even more, very soon…
Angel–Fr@gzill@
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Babe, I don’t care about replacements, I want the applications I use – no compromises, replacements or half-assed opensource equivilants; I want to see a Linux native version of Creative Suite, a linux native version of Painter IX, a linux native version of
Get those applications on Linux, then we’ll talk – until then, Linux will be an irrelevant operating system sitting on the fringes of the operating system world; for me, but not only me, by the vast majority of people out there.
If you want people to move to your operating system, get those software houses to port their applications natively to Linux; people have already invested time learning how to use those applications, they’ve already got a large number of documents saved in those formats – its time that Linux fanboys realised that software and computers are mean to work FOR the end user; and I’m sorry, an end user isn’t going to suddenly biff away all their stuff in favour of embracing a bunch of half-baked, poorly supported, buggy as hell software titles that seem to end up dying off after a year and a half – Pan USENET reader and XChat being two examples of this.
!!!
— “Babe, I don’t care about replacements”
BABE ??? LOL. 185 cm, 105 Kgr (not fat), and pretty hairy…
You don’t care about replacements. OK, keep on using Windoza. After all the applications you cited are not mainstream. There are others much commonly used and well known…
–“no compromises, replacements or half-assed opensource equivilants; I want to see a Linux native version of..”
I use many of those “compromises, replacements or half-assed opensource equivilants”, but I am very lucky, cause they run mostly quick, smoothly, powerfully, usefully, and with less trouble than in windows, to me… and they are free.
You can start programming native versions of those programs you want at anytime, of course…
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–“until then, Linux will be an irrelevant operating system sitting on the fringes of the operating system world; for me, but not only me, by the vast majority of people out there”
???? ?????
Take a belt and slap yourself 10 times in the back for saying nonsenses…
Almost 70% of Web Servers, between 50 and 60% of the general servers, 99% of the SuperComputers, about 5 or 6% of the destops worldwide… YOU call this irrelevant ??? Go and whip yourself again 10 times…
–“If you want people to move to your operating system, get those software houses to port their applications natively to Linux; people have already invested time learning how to use those applications, they’ve already got a large number of documents saved in those formats”
I want nothing… If they move to Linux or other Free-Libre OSs, so much the better for them and for all. If not sorry for them.
Some of the standard apllications of Windows and Mac OS will be ported, others will run natively, and others will never be ported. They will simply be replaced for those of Linux..
wait and see…
–“its time that Linux fanboys realised that software and computers are mean to work FOR the end user; and I’m sorry, an end user isn’t going to suddenly biff away all their stuff in favour of embracing a bunch of half-baked, poorly supported, buggy as hell software titles that seem to end up dying off after a year and a half””
Half-Baked.. LOL Many Linux and Free-OpenSource applications are much better and much more solid that their Windows counterparts. Those that still are not, will become more solid and better. Just a question of time. But not much time, openn source moves quicker than propitary software…
Many applications I use do NOT “end up dying off after a year and a half”. Actually I have been using them for several years, and still improving. There are much more windows applications gone with the wind, anyway…
Relax baby, type “format /s” to your hard drive and install one good Linux distro, you will see that quickly you will soon divorce from windows…
I have a network at home of more than 10 computers, 2 of them with windows only,(its true that for very occasional tasks and programs you may still need it, but this will change in the near future), and for 95% of what I use them I do not need Windows.
So, I guess that about 90 or 95 % of the computers in the world DO NOT REALLY need windows right now. They will move to Free-OpenSource little by little during the next 10 years to come… You’ll see
Angel–Fr@gzill@
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5 or 6% of the destops worldwide
And yet every piece of evidence so far shows that Linux has less than 3% of the market.
Half-Baked.. LOL Many Linux and Free-OpenSource applications are much better and much more solid that their Windows counterparts. Those that still are not, will become more solid and better. Just a question of time. But not much time, openn source moves quicker than propitary software…
Oh pulease, the last time I made a bug report to Mozilla, in respects to Firefox and MacOS X, I was abused to buggery and told to literally to either shut up or f*ck off – sorry, thats the type of ‘community’ that you’re cheerleading around? filled with arrogant, out of touch programmers who think we should be kissing the ground they walk on because they sent in a patch for a OSS application?
Relax baby, type “format /s” to your hard drive and install one good Linux distro, you will see that quickly you will soon divorce from windows…
How about getting an education; I’ve run Linux since 1995, with the occasionally dabble in FreeBSD or Solaris – so I am familar with Linux. I’m now an old (24) ugly fart who has more important priorities than trying to work around other peoples bugs, massive egos (when it comes to reporting bugs) and perpetually waiting for things to be fixed or added simply to bring the respective application up to what I would called, a reasonable degree of functionality.
As for your self deluded “little by little” – sorry, Microsoft’s profits keep rising, shipments keep rising; so please, there is no one yet winning Linux over.
Like I said, when I start seeing mainstream application vendors like MYOB, Quicken, Corel, Adobe and their products on LInux in native form, then you can say “Linux for the desktop is ready for mass consumption”.
Have you forgotten Crossover Office? It actually works great for the apps that are supported, which include MS Office, iTunes, Photoshop and a bunch more. Support only improves over time. Throw together a polished desktop with native options for the basic stuff and Crossover Office for those Windows apps which are absolutely required over open-source counterparts and you have a pretty solid Linux offering.
and you forgot to mention that the performace of windows programs under crossover is actually far faster than running them on windows.
Have you forgotten Crossover Office? It actually works great for the apps that are supported, which include MS Office, iTunes, Photoshop and a bunch more. Support only improves over time. Throw together a polished desktop with native options for the basic stuff and Crossover Office for those Windows apps which are absolutely required over open-source counterparts and you have a pretty solid Linux offering.
I’ve used Crossover Office before, and its support for Microsoft Office isn’t too bad – if they extended that support out for the whole Creative Suite and Painter IX, I would move without any problems, the problem is, that isn’t the case, only Photoshop is ‘supported’.
// I’m now an old (24) ugly fart who has more important priorities than trying to work around other peoples bugs, massive egos … //
24 is “old?”
I must be dead then. 🙂
24 is “old?”
I must be dead then. 🙂
lol, its just going by the response quality of some people around here, I feel like I’m the only one thats aged over 20 and has a full time job 🙂
Its like, ‘What do you mean you like to use that application! how dare you, I’m going to ramn this half baked OSS equivilant down your throat till you like it!’ seems to be the mantra for many around here.
lol, its just going by the response quality of some people around here, I feel like I’m the only one thats aged over 20 and has a full time job 🙂
Its like, ‘What do you mean you like to use that application! how dare you, I’m going to ramn this half baked OSS equivilant down your throat till you like it!’ seems to be the mantra for many around here.
Well I can say that I’m not old, but I’m older than you and I don’t consider open source software to be half baked. If your assumption is that only kiddies use Linux and push its acceptance then you are wrong. I have used open source software start a small business and it worked without a hitch. In fact the business wouldn’t have been started at all if proprietary software had to be licensed because the up front expense would have been much too high.
Sorry for them if they don’t move to Linux?
Whatever happened to choice?
They do have a choice, and too bad for them if they choose something that sucks.
Which choice sucks the most is something I will leave to others to debate.
But you cannot be sorry about people choosing something unless they have a choice, so your question was meaningless.
But it gave me the chance to write this piece on nonsens
Thag you very buch, as Bilbo said while he was in Esgaroth.
No, my point is why feel sorry for someone because they didn’t choose what you chose.
Sorry for them if they don’t move to Linux?
Whatever happened to choice?
I feel sorry for you. Has that affected your choice?
!!!
Thank you for your simpathy… LOL
No, it hasn’t!
reread my posts!
Again, I repeat, my point is that OSS people are about choice, are they not? So if someone has choices, and they make a choice different from yours, you shouldn’t care. Because they have that choice. Feeling sorry for them for not making the same choice as you is very condescending.
I find the “true believers” as annoying as you do, but I think you’re being more than a bit shortsighted here.
Many of the applications you mention are indeed crucial for some folks to do their jobs and are thus reasonably considered a non-negotiable component. Fair enough. But how does the installed base of Creative Suite compare to the installed base of XP Pro + Windows 2000? How does Macromedia Studio MX compare? Or the Corel Suite?
I’ve noticed that most of the apps you mention are tools used by people in the so-called “content creation” fields. A Linux desktop may very well be unworkable for most people working in content creation, but most people don’t work in content creation.
Of course, there are many other fields which are just as tied to specific software packages for doing their work as content creators are to their preferred packages. Novell, and everyone else testing the market for a Linux enterprise desktop, simply aren’t aiming at replacing those Windows installations.
The bet is that 1) some not insignificant percentage of the overall Windows desktop install base can be reasonably replaced by a Linux desktop, 2) that it makes finacial sense to do so, and 3) that capturing a significant portion of that market is sufficient to make one rich beyond the dreams of Avarice (if still a pauper in the eyes of Bill Gates).
So how much of the overall Windows desktop install base is able to be replaced by a Linux desktop? That’s billion dollar question, but my guess would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 20% – 35%. And in combination with Citrix and/or MS Terminal Server that percentage could actually be much, much higher.
My recommendation to those companies looking to sell Linux desktops would be to forge a strong relationship with Citrix before going after the Adobes and Corels of the world. Photoshop ain’t gonna run well over Citrix, but the overwhelming majority of bespoke and custom in-house apps will. Quicken will. Access databases will. Accounting packages will.
1) If the only thing not available for Linux, rightn now was Microsoft Office, I would be quite happy to move to OpenOffice.org – I don’t ever expect to see Microsoft Office natively on Linux, but what I do expect is to atleast see Creative Suite, Painter IX and some sort of application that will enable me to manage my ipod without a problem (audio/video, the whole shebang).
2) Games – want to win over the desktop for the end user (assuming that is being targeted as well), then you’ll need games, and good video card support by both ATI and Nvidia; if I am a gaming end user, I’m not going to suddenly ‘upgrade’ my graphics card to an nvidia simply so I have a decent level of hardware support – whose to blame, for the end user, it doesn’t matter, he or she just wants the darn thing to work.
3) Hardware – hardware may be supported, but not fully exploited, an example of this would be sound cards; basic playback and recording is no problems, but when you move out of that, and start wanting 96khz 24Bit support and the likes, the whole thing falls flat on its face.
— NOW! it all your office requires is Office an office suite, email, and you’re quite happy to port your VB macro’s and internall written application to something that can work on Linux, then sure, Linux would be a great deal, and hey, I won’t stand in your way if you want to move to it.
The fact is, they’re in the minority, businesses rely on software that isn’t available for Linux – for example, a mate of mine in Australia owns his own catering business (and is a chef on site for those who want a chef to cook at their house for a dinner party) – he has built his business around the use of MYOB and probably a lesser extent Microsoft Office.
MYOB can automate all his tax needs; he throws in numbers, prints the information out at the end of the year, passes to accross to his accountant to get signed off before handing it to the ATO – does Linux have a version of MYOB? no, meaning, he can’t use it. If in the US sense, replace that with Peachtree or what ever other package takes your fancy.
As for the “Enterprise Market”, again, it isn’t just a matter of email and typing up word documents; its a whole lot more complicated than that. Talk to enterprise customers, and they’ll tell you that if all their clients just did that all day, they would have moved to Linux years ago – the simple fact is, like I said, its a whole lot more complex than just that.
Did you even read what I wrote before responding?
what I do expect is to atleast see Creative Suite, Painter IX and some sort of application that will enable me to manage my ipod without a problem (audio/video, the whole shebang).
So Linux isn’t suitable for your purposes. Fine. You’ll get no argument from me on this point. That said, you are not representative of most corporate users. The majority of desktops used in companies do not have any of the above mentioned programs installed. Don’t believe me? Compare the volume of licenses sold for each of the above programs to the volume of licenses MS has sold for XP Pro.
Games
Games are utterly irrelevant to the market I’m talking about, which happens to be the same market that Novell is targeting. People who install the latest FPS on their work computers should be fired rather than encouraged and catered to.
Hardware – hardware may be supported, but not fully exploited, an example of this would be sound cards; basic playback and recording is no problems, but when you move out of that, and start wanting 96khz 24Bit support and the likes, the whole thing falls flat on its face.
I repeat: corporate desktops. Not gaming rigs. Not media center doo-dads.
businesses rely on software that isn’t available for Linux
Absolutely correct. And this is most certainly the biggest hurdle Linux faces in moving into the corporate desktop space. Which is why I mentioned Citrix. I’m not familiar with MYOB, but I can assure you that Peachtree’s products do in fact work quite well with Citrix. The same is true of most accounting packages, time entry packages, CRM, and ERP packages, etc… It is also the case that once we’re talking about more than 50 seats or so, the economic rationale for deploying applications via Citrix becomes pretty damn persuasive (and that is true whether the desktop client is Windows, Linux, or Mac).
Talk to enterprise customers
I am an “enterprise customer” (or rather I manage a portion of the IT assets for one). I’m also happen to be a Linux enthusiast, but I’m most certainy not a Linux fanatic. For instance, I would never even entertain the idea of introducing Linux desktops into the organization where I currently work. We could probably succesfully replace some very small portion of our current desktops with Linux, but not nearly enough to make it financially worthwhile. Our organization is entirely too dependent upon MS Office and even if OpenOffice were every bit the equal of MS Office (which it currently is not), we still couldn’t replace MS Office as we depend upon multiple third party applications which tie into and extend it and for which there are no Linux equivalents.
That said, the organization I work for isn’t exactly representative of enterprise organizations in general. I’d estimate that we deal with more electronic documents over the course of a single day than most organizations ten times our size do over the course of an entire month. From an IT perspective, if not from a business perspective, we are essentially in the business of creating, distributing, and storing documents. Deploying MS Office over Citrix simply wouldn’t work for us, even though I’m aware of places where that does indeed work very well. We are even heavily invested in Citrix technology to the point that we are quickly approaching the point where our standard desktop image will only include MS Office the various third party applications which rely upon it. Almost everything else gets deployed via Citrix.
Absolutely correct. And this is most certainly the biggest hurdle Linux faces in moving into the corporate desktop space. Which is why I mentioned Citrix. I’m not familiar with MYOB, but I can assure you that Peachtree’s products do in fact work quite well with Citrix. The same is true of most accounting packages, time entry packages, CRM, and ERP packages, etc… It is also the case that once we’re talking about more than 50 seats or so, the economic rationale for deploying applications via Citrix becomes pretty damn persuasive (and that is true whether the desktop client is Windows, Linux, or Mac).
If you’re going to do that, you might as well stick with the copy of Windows that came with the computers you bought, and run everything natively. The whole idea of getting rid of Windows is just that, getting rid of Windows completely.
Now, if you want a good example of an organisation that could use Linux or an alternative operating system – look no further than the New Zealand defence force, and the fact that Novell could *easily* deliver a competitive replacement for Windows.
Problem? when they tendered out the contract, neither Novell, Red Hat or SUN Microsystems were there; Microsoft was given a free hand at the cash jar because the competition was so enept.
So not only is it the lack of applications that hold it back, but also the lack of a decent sales force who can keep their eye on the ball and have a ‘do or die’ attitude when it comes to wining over businesses.
That doesn’t then go into the fact that Linux does not have an adequate RAD IDE to develop applications quickly for enterprise – drag, drop, assign code, compile, test, deploy; Linux on the other hand is a nightmare considering the amount of crap one has to go through with Glade for instance.
//–Adobe Acrobat reader has a Linux version, and there are also programs to substitute Reader. There are programs too to create PDF files.
–There are open source Linux Flash substitutes in the “oven”, but since visiting websites with Flash is a pain in the a$$, not sure if this technology is vey convenient…
–Corel.. Corel what?? Corel Office, Corel Draw ??
You have Open Office Org.
–ForCorel Draw and other Graphics of all kinds you have Inkscape, Sodipodi, Blender, PovRay, CinePaint…
–For Photoshop. Well the GIMP Is very good, not yet 100 % substitute of Photoshop, but about 90 % of it. But you hav also “GIMPShop” (http://www.gimpshop.net/ and http://blog.yumdap.net/archives/20-GIMPshop-for-Windows.html), much ssimilar to Photoshop, and you have also PIXEL (comercial), that runs in many OSs and will overtake Photoshop in the near future future.
–For Quicken. Well, try Gnucash (www.gnucash.org.), also moneydance (moneydance.com), which is java-based.///
Good advice … but it will be a cold day in hades when 89% of Windows users will go to that much effort to get apps … when it’s painless to go to BestBuy, look at the box, buy it, take it home, install it, use it.
I agree with you on your overall point, but non-tech users (read: most all of Windows/Mac users) won’t hassle with it.
Edited 2006-03-24 15:56
I strongly belive that supplying your OS as OEM gets your customer expanded rather fast.
I’m not even sure if a large % of the customers even would realise that they aren’t running windows xp on it.
For all it’s worth I’d say “Go for it Novell”, there can only come something good out of this one.
The software we are talking about here is Novell “Enterprise” Linux not “Home” edition or “Media Center.” This is going after large enterprises who have IT Departments to manage such things. This software is not being being promoted for home usage. I suppose you could use it as such but it will be geared for enterprise usage and not my grandmother. This is not Linspire’s market it is Xandros’s.
Frankly, application support is a chicken and egg problem because it is difficult for the Linux Desktop Market to develop without commercial software support but commercial software developers don’t want to misinvest valuable resources into a port with no market.
If Novell Enterprise Linux can get on even 2% of desktops that would be huge. Do you know how many millions of desktops that would represent? According to recent figures placing the market of PCs at 660 Million that would be 13.2 Million desktops. That should be a large enough market to interest more commercial software developers.
This is a good move on Novell’s part. They aren’t after the home market; they’re after the corporate market. For a corporation to call a vendor such as Dell or HP/Compaq and say, “I want 1,000 computers configured with SuSE” knowing they can get both hardware and software support is a good thing. And now that OpenOffice.org can read all the MS Office file formats seamlessly, compatability & training issues are non-existant.
HEre’s the funny thing about all this.
Assume I’m a company and I wanna buy software (OS) for our computers (client side ones). Now in one corner is classic MS products which I know, we’re familiar with, which have all the software necessary for regular office use. And there’s a contender which is also preinstalled and also charge money, without all software on the market. Geeee that’s a tough nut to crack.
Giving all this about Evolution, OOo etc is for me not worth anything. Because I use XP with OOo, I really don’t see Novell coming into any of this? The platform for mail/groupware etc is based on the serverside and can all be done via a browser.
Frankly, the only reason at the moment for using Linux on the Business desktop would be that it’s cheap, but why pay Suse then? download Ubuntu or something….
Assume I’m a company and I wanna buy software (OS) for our computers (client side ones). Now in one corner is classic MS products which I know, we’re familiar with, which have all the software necessary for regular office use. And there’s a contender which is also preinstalled and also charge money, without all software on the market. Geeee that’s a tough nut to crack.
Now add a central management console that allows you to push out updates, lock down the desktop, and monitor those systems, without crippling them.
Novell and Dell are also combining Zenworks with OpenManage to produce a management system– I realize OpenManage is primarily for servers, but there’s no reason not to expand it to business desktops.
Finally, from an IT manager’s point of view, having a desktop that’s largely immune to 99.9% of the virii, worms, and trojans out there, eliminates a large percentage of support issues. Worst case, you restore the user’s home directory from backups, because that’s all they were able to trash.
“Finally, from an IT manager’s point of view, having a desktop that’s largely immune to 99.9% of the virii, worms, and trojans out there, eliminates a large percentage of support issues. Worst case, you restore the user’s home directory from backups, because that’s all they were able to trash.”
Adding functionality means adding hazards, nothing new about that. I guess my original post got voted down because critisizing Linux is like critizing Stalin, you get shot!
In a company, the computer functions as a tool, a tool to perform some line of duty. IT people seem to forget about this. Let’s say the sales people in your organisation, they wanna sync their mobiles with their Address book. in Windows, no problem, in Suse, it might work. Let’s say you’re in economy, yummy, I hear Suse has some great accountant software… probably at least the same amount of them as Windows.
So if you have to administer a lot of windows boxes, it’s probably easier unifying stuff rather than scattering the amount of systems you have. The above was just 2 examples to point out what I’m saying.
If you can’t have a network where you skip Outlook and IE, I’m not really sure why you’re a sysadmin in the first place, because THAT will relieve you of about 90% of the viruses. Besides, there is a reason why a lot of them Anti virus packages start popping up for Linux as well… a stupid user is a stupid user.
“Now add a central management console that allows you to push out updates, lock down the desktop, and monitor those systems, without crippling them. ”
Active directory? Software update server?
Its all out there for windows networks. Easy to install, well supported. Free with the product.
You mentioned some good products that are similiar, however I strongly doubt they can match active directory for capability. I’m always surprised to see the comments about windows viruses, as any company I have ever worked for rarely has any issues whatsoever with them.
Yes, some sales guys will open anything. But that’s why every server, desktop has anti virus and mail is scanned inbound and outbound, combined with firewall and IDS type of devices.
Viruses arn’t a day to day issue for any company I have ever worked for.
Linux’s challenge is proving more capability, with equal or less suffering (ease of use), ability to support, etc. At this point I see linux as a good windows 98 alternative, but dismal compared to XP.
– Morglum
spoken like a true mcp
Active directory and software update server are both second class citizens in comparison to eDirectory and ZENworks Patch Management (Patchlink Update). They’re not even in the same league.
As far as the capability of AD, it’s alright, but bound by its own constraints. Replication weaknesses, replica management, non-standard implementation of LDAP which renders means that your CN/UID/sAMAccountName is bound to a uniqueness constraint not within LDAP, but within the Kerberos realm.
Some of these issues are offset by benefit. Kerberos IS a good authentication protocol. I can’t take that away from it. But with the AD implementation, it renders the product far less scalable, which is bad for businesses.
Windows has its place…just not in the datacenter
From:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420AP_UT_Novell_Schadenfreude….
“Novell’s SuSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10 – SLED 10 – and its applications are available now”
But in this page:
http://www.novell.com/products/desktop/preview.html
I can’t find a link to downloading or buying SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10.
Any idea?
Sorry, boys, but Vista being delayed isn’t gonna sell many Novell desktops … not by a longshot.
Not until Joe SixPack can go to Best Buy, purchase off-the-shelf software like Quicken, and install it on his linux box.
And that is years (if ever) away.
joeuser@hisbox> apt-get install gnumeric
or
joeuser@linuxbox> urpmi gnumeric
or
yum install gnumeric
get the point ?
linux is years ahead of windows when it comes to getting / installing software.
hahahaha good answer, but most people around here wont get it.
Sorry, boys, but Vista being delayed isn’t gonna sell many Novell desktops … not by a longshot.
Not until Joe SixPack can go to Best Buy, purchase off-the-shelf software like Quicken, and install it on his linux box.
And that is years (if ever) away.
I hope it is never. What’s the point of buying crappy software when you can install software that works as well or better for free, over the internet, from a central repository? As for Joe User, he actually hates buying software. Joe User thinks it is a rip off that his computer doesn’t have all the capabilities he wants built in. Joe User doesn’t pay $600 for photoshop. Joe user has a heart attack when he finds out that Office has a $230 price tag for the base edition. Windows users on forums like these always accuse Linux advocates of ignoring what Joe User needs/wants but I deal with Joe User everyday and Joe User hates Windows. A lot of complaints could be alleviated if Linux was substituted, for instance malware that installs itself to startup, inconsistent user interfaces, horrible installation, uninstallation procedures, and foobarred registries. OEM backing would go a long way and the only people that would really dislike Linux as an option are Windows power users because they can’t get their hands on some obscure software that no one else has ever even heard of, or because they cannot run their ridiculously priced software titles that were probably pirated anyway and that Joe User wouldn’t be able to understand if he tried for 3 days straight.
Vista’s delay isn’t going to drive desktop Linux sales. The only opportunity that I see coming of this whole thing are where technologists are in a position to outfit organizations AND they are displeased with the offerings of Vista. I think that Linux/OSX can and will take on parts of the enterprise desktop. How long it will take is hard to say. With an enterprise player like Novell, however, it’s going to be much more compelling than it would be with strict Linux distributions/organizations.
Say what you will about Novell. Their brand management has sucked for years, but their products are, for the most part, best of breed. Those who still listen to Novell will likely find themselves rewarded with a competitive advantage. There’s never any competitive advantage in doing exactly what everyone else is doing, so some will take a chance. Provided the organization can engineer the replacement, they will find success, I think.
Despite people huffing and puffing about Novell, Vista and Windows here I don’t think anyone has actually read TFA. Someone on another site did a good job of taking apart this corporate drivel, so I’ll continue on the same theme:
Novell is talking to a number of OEMs about getting its upcoming SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10 preinstalled on the hardware systems they ship.
Well, I could talk to OEMs about my Linux distribution, but that doesn’t mean they’d ship it.
“I know there is an opportunity here and we are working on the how and the when,” he said in a media and analyst question and answer session.
We have no clue how we’re going to get our desktop out there, or how we’re going to fund the development we’re putting into it, and will in the future, but we believe a pig headed refusal to see facts in the face will see us through.
It’s that ‘when not if’ thing people always assume is around the corner.
Nat Friedman, Novell’s vice president of Linux desktop engineering, said there are two branches to this: On the one side, there are 120 companies beta-testing the software, while on the other, a “family and friends” program, has 100 or so testers.
Hmmm. 200 beta testers for a major enterprise product is commonly known as a bit of a disaster. It should also tell them that there’s no market or they need to change their tac.
Novell has made a lot of progress around introducing new Linux products, but added that it wants to do better on the Linux revenue side.
Yes, and 200 beta testers and, as it stands, a miniscule market and userbase for SLED is going to help with that.
“We had a late start relative to the competition [Red Hat], but we have positioned ourselves really well for when the enterprise starts embracing Linux and open source at the data center level,” he said.
Well, considering that we are a much older company than Red Hat, and we’re older than Linux, and we didn’t start from scratch but buy straight into an existing Linux distribution company……..
CTO Jeff Jaffee added that Novell is positioning itself well with its upcoming SUSE Linux Enterprise 10 desktop and server products, but stressed that open source is not just about Linux, but is also the most disruptive technology today.
We have no idea how to put together this thousand piece jigsaw, so we’ll throw all the pieces in the air and hope they land in exactly the right places.
CEO and chairman Jack Messman said the company has been in discussions with governments around the world regarding Novell’s strategy around governments
People have been “talking” to governments for years about this, and strangely, nothing much has happened at all. I remember many interviews by people at Ximian and others years ago where they were ‘talking’ to governments.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Lay…
“2004 appears to be the year where the big commercial vendors are getting behind the Linux desktop in a meaningful way.”
How silly does that phrase sound now?
Jaffe said that the corporate IT mantra is all about avoiding vendor lock-in, and this is even more prevalent among governments
Wow is it? The corporate mantra for everybody else seems to be “get something that works” and “nobody ever got fired for using Microsoft”. No one actively looks to avoid vendor lock-in.
“The capabilities of the open desktop has not been there until now, but with SLED 10 we have an offering that is good enough for the general office worker
Hmmm. People have been targetting this general office worker for a long time. Either they’re no keen at all, they’re shy or the way they have been targetted is complete tosh.
I really wonder when the penny will drop.
Edited 2006-03-24 18:25
Just in the few posts that I’ve read from you, it’s obvious that you don’t respect anything that the company says. Accordingly, I’m going to skip most of your post, because no amount of discussion will change that.
I don’t disagree with you that people have been clamoring for too long about whether or not Linux was going to take the desktop. If they would just let the technology roll,without trying to pump it up with Vista-like fanfare, I think that there would be much more success.
You may or may not believe it, but companies ARE looking to remove themselves from vendor lock. I’ve seen it on both sides of the table, as a corporate engineer/architect, and as a solutions architect for a consulting organization. It makes sense, and it’s happening. Novell is in a good position to take advantage of this, with their strategy to establish NOS as a commodity, as opposed to something that drives the direction of a datacenter. The biggest challenge faced by Novell is brand management, which is the responsibility of their inept marketing department.
Just in the few posts that I’ve read from you, it’s obvious that you don’t respect anything that the company says.
I don’t respect non-existant marketing drivel. This is actually an announcement of a non-announcement.
Accordingly, I’m going to skip most of your post, because no amount of discussion will change that.
Nope, because what Novell is coming out with is drivel. No one will change that apart from Novell.
The point is, though, you have no idea what is marketing drivel, apparently. What’s your point of reference? Your small shop where Microsoft is god? eWeek? MCPMag?
It IS a concern amongst large shops to minimize vendor lock. Ignore it if you wish, but it does exist…I’ve seen it personally. Your dismissal of an idea doesn’t render it drivel…it’s just drivel as far as you’re concerned. Far as I’m concerned, your baseless ranting about Novell is no less drivel.
The point is, though, you have no idea what is marketing drivel, apparently.
Wow, is that a personal opinion is it?
Have a look at the article. They’re announcing their non-announcement of something that doesn’t exist and they’re not doing it yet.
What’s your point of reference?
When someone announces something they’re not doing ;-).
It IS a concern amongst large shops to minimize vendor lock.
That’s something they say, not something they do. How many companies do you see running Red Hat, Suse and Sun just to avoid lock-in? None, that’s how many.
People run Windows in places and Linux/Unix, mostly out of sight at the back-end, simply because it is the best solution for the job – not because they want to avoid lock-in.
Your dismissal of an idea doesn’t render it drivel…it’s just drivel as far as you’re concerned.
Ahh, the old “it’s your opinion” thing :-).
Far as I’m concerned, your baseless ranting about Novell is no less drivel.
Hmmm. When someone specifically announces their non-announcement of something they’re not doing yet, is calling that drivel baseless? No, it isn’t.
Edited 2006-03-25 18:41