Genesi has ‘announced’ it is going to release AmigaOS4 for their EFIKA motherboard as soon as the next release of MorphOS is released. “We have clearly indicated in this thread, we don’t need Hyperion’s support to port OS4 to the EFIKA – legally or technically.” True to the Amiga scene of the last few years, a discussion spanning 300 posts ensued. My take: I actually advocated ‘porting’ AmigaOS4 to Genesi hardware last year, but I do hope it all happens within the boundaries of the law and that the developers get what they deserve. Update: The latest post asks an interesting question.
I agree with Thom (for once) that AmigaOS needs to run on Gene{si,ric} PowerPC hardware; what I don’t understand is how Genesi can claim they can port Hyperion’s product without Hyperion’s help and consent. AmigaOS isn’t open source (more’s the pity).
@twenex
Amiga Inc. owns the code. Or else they, Amiga Inc, lied in court to Genesi.
BBRV wants his amiga company back. Bonne chance soldat !
I guess they just add drivers/functionality on the ekiga until it runs.
This sort of thing is really going to hurt the OS’s chance of being taken seriously
You can say that again.
what chance?
Yeah, because an os without a hardware platform and no future, left by most sceners and only very few users really got a great chance!
It’s about time someone or something starting to put pressure on Amiga Inc. They have sat on their stubborn asses (at least I have the impression of it) for a very long time.
I don’t care if the port is legal or not, I just want someting to run OS4 on.
If this becomes reality, Amiga Inc will be forced to take some action. As not just me, but alot of tired Amiga(OS) fans will buy this hardware just for the sake of it.
I’ve just read that forum starting at post linked by Thom… i don’t know who is on which side there, because it looks like everyone hates everyone there.
It’s like they keep fighting over non-existing thing (from my point of view OwnTropicalIsland is much more possible thing to get than OS4 computer
.
I heard few bad things about Genesi, and about other Amiga involved companies, but porting OS4 to (far more popular than AmigaOne) other hardware should only help spread their beloved OS, right?
— edit —
One more thing. After reading that forum i think that AROS, which is progressing very slow, has much more chance than Amiga OS4 (or 5 or whatever imaginary OS they will try to hype).
Edited 2007-01-25 14:36
I’ve just read that forum starting at post linked by Thom… i don’t know who is on which side there, because it looks like everyone hates everyone there.
It’s like they keep fighting over non-existing thing (from my point of view OwnTropicalIsland is much more possible thing to get than OS4 computer
.
I heard few bad things about Genesi, and about other Amiga involved companies, but porting OS4 to (far more popular than AmigaOne) other hardware should only help spread their beloved OS, right?
The argument over there seems to be based on the question of whether BBRV has the source code (or rights to the source code) of AmigaOS4; since he apparently already tried to negotiate the rights w/ Hyperion and failed, it would seem he is now trying to do it “above the law”.
One more thing. After reading that forum i think that AROS, which is progressing very slow, has much more chance than Amiga OS4 (or 5 or whatever imaginary OS they will try to hype).
Not really; AmigaOS 4 exists, and, unlike AROS, is binary compatible with old software. (AROS may be binary compatible with old software on 68k Amigas/68k Amigas with PowerPC boards, but it probably isn’t compatible on PowerPC hardware or x86.)
Not really; AmigaOS 4 exists, and, unlike AROS, is binary compatible with old software. (AROS may be binary compatible with old software on 68k Amigas/68k Amigas with PowerPC boards, but it probably isn’t compatible on PowerPC hardware or x86.)
From my point of view Amiga OS4 is as good as not existing – no hardware available, and when it was available it was crazy expensive. Looks like many different groups keep fighting over it, so even if there will be hardware in a reasonable price it will be very risky to buy it and Amiga OS4 – i just can’t be sure if/when company will go bancrupt again.
AROS progress is slow, but keeps going on. I know it will not die because of management or something, people will port it to many hardware platforms so hardware will never be a problem. What’s more i already tried it on my PC, so it already is much more than Amiga OS4 ever was for me.
If people from Amiga OS world would finally stop fighting and tried to port OS to cheaper and popular hardware… maybe then Amiga would be popular again (like it was in Amiga500-1200 times here
. But after reading that forum i really doubt it will ever happen.
Which is sad because i really would like to have it (or at elast try it).
Edited 2007-01-25 15:00
Hello,
After seeing this I personally think that the way to go for any future support of an OS is Open Source, like AROS or Linux. Both of those work quite well on many platforms, and don’t require you to purchase hardware from defunct companies to run the “Official OS” like AmigaOS.
MorphOS is mostly compatible with older AmigaOS software, from what I’ve seen (I’ve used it, and it ran many 68K apps appreciably well). There’s even a program called OS4Emu for it to run some OS4 binaries.
There’s not much of a point to run AmigaOS on the EFIKA or Pegasos, except being able to officially use the name.
I think this is mostly a foil by Bill Buck to show how Amiga Inc. (and whoever owns them this year) is sitting on their IP and not providing the OS to their customers on hardware that is still manufactured after the OS was officially released. This is more of an effort to get Amiga Inc. to say something about their hardware plans than it is about Genesi porting OS4.
There were many companies that announced hardware that was supposed to be OS4 compatible, and the only one that appears to be shipping anything is Genesi. Fortunately, Linux is quite well supported on their hardware, and will be for a long while.
Is there some sort of newbie’s guide, explaining what all this is about?
My Amiga knowledge is roughly as follows:
There was an Amiga 500, and it was very good, and I had one. Then there was an Amiga 1200, and it was better. Then there was a CD32, and it wasn’t very good. Then Commodore went bust.
Many, many years later, a new version of AmigaOS has finally been finished, but (according to that Ars article from last week) there isn’t actually any hardware to run it on.
Now this company Genesi has announced that they’re going to ship AmigaOS4 on their hardware (along with MorphOS, whatever that is). To the “outsider”, that seems like phenominally good news — people are actually going to be able to buy computers running OS4. And yet many people seem quite cross about it.
So what’s going on? I just don’t understand!
Amiga OS is beleaguered…
Well there has actually been quite a few more developments than you note. Amiga was bought in the first instance by ESCOM, then by Gateway 2000 (both IBM PC-compatible companies). Then Amiga was bought by KMOS, or something, and contracted out Hyperion to write the new version of the OS, and Eyetech to supply the hardware (a PowerPC board named AmigaOne). Then new European environmental legislation forced Eyetech to drop the AmigaOne. Then the Efika was selected as the main platform for AmigaOS4.
The worry people are having is that it sounds like Genesi are going to ship their Efikas with illegal copies of AmigaOS 4.
I really don’t think Amiga is that big of a deal for Genesi. They are frying other fish:
http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2007/01/solaris-on-power-open-and-shut-cas…
Sure, they have posted more than a few blogs about Amiga.
http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2007/01/amiga.html
http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2006/11/amiga-power.html
http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2005/11/amiga.html
And, it is known they have a preference for MorphOS and its Founder Ralph Schmidt.
http://www.morphzone.org/
http://developer.morphosppc.com/
But, seriously, when you look at the AmigaWorld thread with the exception of a few very smart people, THEY ARE FREAKS! bbrv have some ulterior motive, but I do not for the life of me understand what it is.
I do like the Community is a Computer idea and the Atari spoof on Efikawing and Go Zig! is funny (and smart).
http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2006/12/new-year-resolution-more-and-bette…
I say go Genesi. We need more small company’s like you.
/rasmus
It’s all about the bad blood. Many Amiga Inc followers hate bbrv because in the past they were incredibly demeaning and insulting to anyone who believed the Amiga could survive.
Now that they see the Amiga OS has survived, they’ve changed their tune. Unfortunately, years of demeaning behavior are hard to shake off.
Sure, I think bbrv’s goals are ultimately a valiant attempt, but the fact remains that their communication skills have always sucked. They’ve burned too many bridges…
Moochman:
Bill’s and Raquel’s (BBRV) communications skills
are just fine, I can promise you that.
Why would they have such close relationship with
Freescale if they couldn’t sell themselves?
There is a big reason why they discuss these things
in public and that is because they want to have the
Community in the loop, in pretty much everything.
Some deals are of course private, but major issues
against Amiga Inc they chose to make public just so
the Community will know what is going on. I don’t know
how much you have followed the Amiga Community the past
five years, but I can tell you that the things that have
upset people the most is the lack of communication skills
and total silence from the companies forming the
Community’s future. The companies that have been silent
are the Holy Trio; Amiga Inc, Eyetech and Hyperion.
Genesi chose a more open path because of these reasons.
Like I stated in my earlier post here; they don’t care
about the operating system – they love the Community!
http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2005/11/amiga.html
There is no bad blood between Genesi and Amiga (Community).
There may be bad blood between Genesi and Amiga Inc
but that is a whole different matter. It all comes
down to legal issues and the way Amiga Inc is run.
Amiga Inc today is pretty much nothing more than a
filing cabinet in some Venture Capitalist’s office.
They are holding all the rights and patents to Amiga.
They don’t accept any more hardware licenses for
Next-Gen Amiga just so they can maintain maximum
control and the raise the value of the assets
so the Venture Capitalists can get as much money as
possible for the whole cabinet.
As the Inquirer suggests Bill and Raquel are one
of the few companies who has any chance to bring back
the Amiga.
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=36685
You’re absolutely right that the companies that own the Amiga assets have some of the worst communication/management abilities in the industry. However, remembering back to the forum posts I read a couple of years ago, Bill and Raquel showed public disdain not only for these companies, but also for anyone that still believed in the Amiga OS and chose to trust it in Hyperion’s hands (bbrv and many of their Genesi/MorphOS followers basically called everyone on AmigaWorld “freaks”).
Apparently, those freaks were right to believe in Hyperion, because Hyperion are the ones that have brought us to this point. And now Bill and Raquel make out as if the years of insulting those on-hangers never happened.
If it were up to me, I’d say “everyone forget the past, move forward and all live happily ever after”. It’s really too bad that so much tension still exists, and I wish it didn’t. But I can’t say I don’t understand why.
Bill’s and Raquel’s (BBRV) communications skills
are just fine, I can promise you that.
…
There is no bad blood between Genesi and Amiga (Community).
Have you not read the thread or other ones they start or participate in? Every one of their threads quickly becomes a flamewar… Their methods may work with other groups, but the AW.net community has a hair-trigger which gets set off every time Genesi say anything. After so many years of that, you’d hope that one would try to adjust their approach to compensate for the sensitive audience. Either that or you’d think they’d give up on such a disagreeable segment of the “community”, because we’ve proven to not be constructive toward their goals.
I’m as guilty of being part of hair-trigger response as anyone else. But I haven’t found myself improving in that respect either, so maybe it isn’t so easy to adjust for the situation or audience as it is to say, but I also do not claim that I have good communication skills.
I share concerns that Amiga Inc. isn’t doing much to help its own userbase. I worry that they are hurting the platform more than anyone else, but I also worry that Genesi’s licensing tactics are comparable to tossing gasoline into an roaring bonfire. Amiga started the fire and let it burn out of control, but Genesi may have picked up the wrong bottle when they reached for the water on this…
stop playing around with ppc and port to x86 so that everyone, including the latest Macs can use AmigaOS.
A number of sane Amigians have said that for the past 8-10 years and look where we are now.
How I wish that OS 4 was aimed at the VIA EPIA Mini-ITX series 5 years ago. That would’ve given us cheap, all-in-one hardware while still not forcing the developers to create drivers for a very large numer of chips and components.
I think part of the problem was the feeling that x86 was a junky cpu to develop for and ppc was nice and superior. Apple also had that problem but they got over it.
I always find that argument amusing, I mean who programs CPU’s directly anymore?
Erm… People that develops video players, cryptography software and 3D FPSes?
I always find that argument amusing, I mean who programs CPU’s directly anymore?
Huh? OS4 developers use gcc… Fix any endian issues that may be present and flip the gcc target to x86 and you should be well on your way to x86…
How I wish AmigaOS 4 never was and that the had got the QNX Neutrino based OS instead promised by Amiga/Gateway a little before year 2000.
http://www.genesippc.com/press.php?date=20061124
?!?!?!? /rasmus
Well of course in retrospect the choice of PPC was a mistake, but at the time top of the range Amigas were running duel Processor 68060/PPCs accelerator boards, and Apple were the only real alternative for a comerical product, and they were doing OK on PPC, So I don’t really blame them for backing the wrong horse, But I think it was a obvious mistake not to make it available for the Apple PPC machines.
Why o why? The Amiga meme is about openness, cheerfulness and technical excellency. If I wanted an electronic supermarket installed in my living room, there’s plenty of depressing choices.
Let me make this clear: I want an open and documented platform, an open, modern, well documented operating system then I want to play with this. I want Power + Genesi + BSD.
…is how those people are able to keep their companies running for years?
I mean, it might be nice to be making some PPC boards for an obscure OS that seems to have no market whatsoever. But how do you earn a living out of it? And how do you earn a living out of Amiga OS4?
Apart for a handful of die hard amigans or hobbyists, who is going to buy that stuff? Yet they’ve been working on these for years… If somebody can figure out their business model, then by all means tell me because I’d be happy to make a living writing my very own OS!
If AmigaOS 4 was available for x86 for a price half of a XP-license sales of AmigaOS 4 would skyrocket (not that it takes much to skyrocket). I would definitely be buying it. That’s for sure.
@dylansmrjones
I would also by myself a copy. I want to get myself a Mini-ITX AmigaOne but the price kept me away from it.
But I doubt it would really take off at first. AmigaOS4’s missing some things that the average PC user take for granted like stability and decent software library. And there’s the small developer pool problem…
IMO the only way to grow is dirty cheap hardware (EFIKA) and good docs/tools. The rest will follow.
Me too.
My thoughts of the thread is that Bill and Raquel
are doing abit of market research. They are probably
the first company in the Amiga Community to ever do
a market survey!
They post a provocative post to make people open up
and express their true feelings. It’s one way to make
research of how the community really feels. The community
is what’s interesting for Genesi. They don’t really
care about the operating systems. The people are much
more important.
In BBRV’s own post which opened that thread, they said they contacted Amiga Inc. asking about a License for OS4, and also said that they had made an important contact at Hyperion for porting OS4 to Efika board, and even gave a board to Hyperion.
Later in the same thread they say that they have no need or use for Hyperion or Amiga Inc. OK… Why talk about that other stuff in the first post then? Also, where does this position that they have a license (without any response from Amiga to their inquiry) come from? There was a lawsuit in 2004 over a different product from Amiga Inc. named AmigaDE, since renamed to AmigaAnywhere, and court filings and decisions for this can be found at
http://www.mindrelease.net/amiga-thendic/
AmigaDE is a java-like platform-agnostic environment that requires a “host” operating system such as Linux or Windows to operate. A judge ruled that Amiga indeed did owe to Thendic a port of AmigaDE. (Some people are uncertain as to the relationship between Thendic and Genesi, but we’ll go with the judge’s opinion for now, which in terms of AmigaDE contract allowed the association)
Genesi claimed in items 49 and 50 that Thendic’s contract for AmigaDE somehow grants to Genesi certain rights to AmigaOS4, while AmigaOS4 is not named in the contract at all. Judge Lasnik DENIED Genesi’s claims to OS4, as seen in item 59.Consider that if you got a license that only ever named WindowsCE and then claimed that this contract also granted you rights to Vista Ultimate. AmigaDE does not run on OS4, does not run OS4 applications, AmigaOS4 does nto run in DE, and DE applications do not run on OS4. Some believe that an ancient roadmap announcement that said Amiga OS5 and AmigaDE were planned to merge together somehow equates to saying that OS4 is an extension of AmigaDE.
Genesi hinted that they were warming up their lawyers again a few months ago. Did they get back into court, and ask for rights to OS4 to be reconsidered and granted to Genesi? Did a judge agree with them this time? Nothing has been publically said that any new hearings even took place. Until we can see a new decision, I default to Judge Lasnik’s 2004 decision that denies Genesi’s claim to OS4.
I’m also curious as to how the people who developed OS4 will be paid the fees they agreed to in return for their work. Has Genesi seen all those individual contracts with Hyperion? What are the intentions here? Can these programmers use their IP ownership to their particular contribution to withhold OS4 features from Genesi’s distribution? BBRV says this is all to help the OS4 community, but I see a lot of possibility that the end result will be the destruction of OS4 the product as well as the end of the community around it.
I just had a lightbulb pop up over my head! Genesi should set up a donation website to get OS4 on Efika! That would give them a great bargaining chip, and show the world that they are fully willing to pay whatever the licensing fees might be.
If they are willing to pay, then they should pay on their own instead of scamming people out of their money with donations.
True, but it would simultaneously put pressure on Amiga Inc to open up OS4.
Maybe they could ensure payment of all the OS4 developers with the money earned!
…I know, it’s hopelessly idealistic.
Is this really a news item on OSNews? Next time I will claim that I do port Windows to EFIKA and I don’t need any support from MS, legally or technically… It is already running on PowerPC, in XBOX360, so what me worry…
Besides, I really cannot see any further depths where Genesi could sink. They are trying to get a market for their HW, so they are peeking under every rock, in case potential users are hiding there…
Knock, knock! Wake up, Neo…
I tried to read a few pages on their forum, but I didn’t see much interesting there so I hope anyone can answer the question “Who has what rights?” with regards to source and other IP for AmigaOS4.
Does the individual developers have any right to the code they contributed, or is all rights with the company they wrote the code for?
Do these individual developers have any right to prevent Genesi from using their code?
Disclaimer:
I gave up on everything Amiga many years ago and don’t really care either way about the hardware or software or the hostilities between the companies that are involved with either hardware or software related to Amiga.
Marcellus:
It sounds like the individual AmigaOS 4.0 developers
(30+) have full ownership of the product they have
delivered and been paid for. That means anyone can
say no to any new hardware developer and his product
has to be removed from AmigaOS 4.0. This will slice
AmigaOS 4.0 up in pieces.
Imagine Windows XP without Solitaire.. That would upset
90% of all business customers!
The AmigaOS 4.0 kernel (Exec) is owned by two brothers
named Tomas and Hans-Jörg Friedens. They are mere sub-
contractors to Hyperion. This means Hyperion that is
supposed to own AmigaOS 4.0 doesn’t even control the
kernel!
Hyperion is not supposed to own AOS4. Hyperion is supposed to be responsible for the development of AOS4. And Hyperion is responsible for said development.
But of course, it doesn’t change the fact it’s somewhat problematic to have ownership of code spread this much.
Does the individual developers have any right to the code they contributed, or is all rights with the company they wrote the code for?
Some do. Maybe not all. You’d have to read each and every contract, including the Amiga/Hyperion one, to understand it all, as some people likely have different terms than other people. A handful might have the right to say no to Genesi. A handful might have the right to negotiate with Genesi without Hyperion’s approval. Some may have signed ownership and control of their components to Hyperion, as the supposed Amiga/Hyperion contract terms seen publically Amiga encouraged Hyperion to do as much as possible.
I’m not seen as particularly friendly to Genesi. But when we were talking to Hyperion, we wanted to be able to ship our particular component for MorphOS if we chose to. The Morph guys hold their stuff far more closely than the OS4 team does, they were not willing to share the driver API or example driver implementation and have rolled their own equivalent, but even though I often argue with BBRV I do consider their stuff as possible oportunities. Their hardware would make a great platform for OS4, but their methods of achieving that don’t mesh with my personality very well and as a result I often find myself at odds with them in recent years.
So, can the EFIKA 5200B actually be bought somewhere, besides the Genesi website? Is there a European retailer? (Applogies for the slight off-topicness of this question.)
Jal:
Yes, the EFIKA can be purchased in Europe:
http://www.ggsdata.se
http://www.vesalia.de
I looked at OS 4 coming out a while ago and I thought: “Gee, that’d be cool to try out.” So, I looked at getting a copy of OS 4 and hardware to run on. Apple was shipping G5’s at the time and the only new hardware I could find were 800Mhz to 1Ghz G3’s and G4’s. Okay, that’s great if it’s a $300 or $400 G3 or G4, but a $800-$1000 G3 or G4? Come on guys! Mac Minis with G4’s were 599! By the time everything was said and done, I was looking a $1200 to $1500 computer with the best of two year old processor technology. And what if I don’t care for OS 4? I’ve got a very over-priced Linux desktop.
I would think that people who want to see OS 4 get more exposure would want to see it on the most desktops possible. That means either coming up with a less expensive board, where a whole PC is $500 or becoming compatible with mass-market hardware. I would think that Hyperion and the all the licensees would be bending over backward to get OEM’s to ship it on a working system, installed on the boot disk.
I keep seeing comments like “the spirit of Amiga” but I don’t get it. I guess they’d rather go around swap-meets, trading 10+ year old equipment than doing anything useful. I kind of always wanted an Amiga, but I’m not ready to blow $1200 to get a pile out outdated hardware.
You know, Apple and Microsoft may be bullies in their own way, but at the core their actions are practical, and perhaps even necessary, in pushing technology forward while maintaining a standard API on which to build applications on. On the whole, I’d rather deal with them than the little politics that so often surround open source and small software companies. At least things move forward, and while you may not like where a project is heading currently, you can at least attempt to change its direction.
You can’t change the direction of a project that has no forward momentum. I see this kind of thing happen over…and OVER again in small projects. It’s like watching dogs fight over a bone instead of cooperating and going after the guy with all the meat.
Amiga is effectively dead. The politics killed it, the greed killed it, and most of all, the PRIDE killed it. The OS isn’t even useful for anything anymore beyond a trip down memory lane, though the Amiga brand itself still has some value. If I were in charge of the IP, I would put an Amiga branded OS, and as many applications as I could license, on one disk and target the PS3. The Amiga market is just too small to pursue the development of its own hardware platform.
On the other hand all this does present an interesting question: Should you have the right to run an OS you have purchased a license to on the hardware of your choice?
Don’t waste your time with them, they still haven’t paid some of the developers of morphos, the hardware is underpowered and expensive (anything none x86 is)
And Even I can’t be bothered with all this political rubbish anymore, it’s a nice little OS, very fast, well Organised and set out (mostly), and basically a nice little niche Operating System, Not perfect, but I for one prefer it to Linux/MacOSX/ Windows. Just get it out on anything so we can get the devolpers, err devolping!
All the rest is frankly rather boring to be honest.