Today, OSNews features an interview with Zac Woodall, software design Engineer at Office Data and Developer Services at Microsoft Corporation. Zac, who is also a frequent OSNews reader, talks about the new Office, .NET, WindowsXP, NTFS and how it compares to BFS filesystem, the GPL & open source movement and much more.1. In what sense Office.NET will be different from Office XP in the way it operates? Also, please explain to us what Office.NET and Lists are in general.
Zac Woodall: It’s too early for us to provide in depth information on future versions of Office, however going forward, we’ll continue to innovate in the areas of custom business solutions and collaborations. I can tell you that Microsoft is always focused on both improving productivity of knowledge workers and facilitating compatibility of Office with both the Web and line of business applications.
2. Are there plans to fully integrate voice recognition and maybe a hint of a “real” artificial intelligence on Office and Windows XP?
Zac Woodall: Speech recognition is already available in the English (U.S.), Simplified Chinese and Japanese language versions of Microsoft Office. You can use speech recognition to dictate text into any Office program. You can also select menu, toolbar, dialog box (U.S. English only), and Task Pane (U.S. English only) items by using your voice. Speech recognition is not designed for completely hands-free operation so you will get the best results using a combination of your voice and the mouse or keyboard.
3. How is the GPL and open source is perceived within Microsoft? How are the employees and your collegues see development like WINE or Mono?
Zac Woodall: We of course have a policy on GPL code: we can’t look at it. What is the reason for this? Well, in my read of the GPL it states that if a work includes GPL code, or is derived from GPL code, then the GPL applies to the aggregate work. And it is very hard to discern between which ideas are completely yours, and which are influenced by code you have seen in the past. What this means is that by incorporating, or possibly even reading GPL code, you are placing your own IP in jeopardy. It seems to me that anyone producing commercial code should be very careful about the implications of the GPL on their dev processes.
Microsoft is of course in the business of making money, as are all businesses, and like IBM and other Intellectual Property-driven companies, a fair amount of revenue is generated through the sale of our IP. Microsoft believes, and has publicly stated that Open Source can be a good thing, but we have concerns with the GPL. To be honest, we spend almost $10B/year on research and development writing code. This is one of the primary reasons for Microsoft’s strong performance – we can assign a whole team of world class developers to work on a new idea, and if we turn out a good product that meets business needs, we know we’re going to make back all the money we spent on research and development in the sale of the ideas that team generates. In my honest opinion, I would much rather work in a company who’s primary focus is research and development of new ideas and tools, than one who only makes money in supporting others’ ideas. After all, in the end of the day businesses are designed for one thing: to make money.
As far as WINE and Mono are concerned, I’m just not sure whether these organizations will end up being able to produce satisfactory products. The real problem is this: it is not good enough for WINE to run some Windows apps. If the general public is going to consume it, it must run all Windows apps. Windows 2000/XP has a significant level of POSIX compliancy, but many developers just don’t write their apps with these standards in mind. You’ll find pieces of code everywhere in third party apps which run statements like if (WINVER==4.0 && GrokTheBIOSForSomeACPIGoo()), which have not been tested to see whether they will run on non-Windows/x86 platforms. In fact, Microsoft has had to put in significant time and effort to insure that older Win32 applications originally written to run in Win95 will run in NT.
4. The SharePoint Portal Server is an interesting and very useful application, mostly for big companies. Does the application include support for scanned documents that can be OCRed and searched?
Zac Woodall: Yes. SharePoint Portal Server can index many file types, including TIF files. For example, an HR department could have all incoming faxes indexed for key words or phrases and automatically routed to product managers looking for specific skill sets.
5. Is the Digital Dashboard a preliminary taste of .NET, or it is based on a completely different technology?
Zac Woodall: No, the digital dashboard was developed a couple of years ago, to provide customers with the tools to build custom intranet solutions. SharePoint Portal Server is the first product to be based on the digital dashboard architecture. The dashboard technology itself is not based on the .NET technology, which is focused on web services.
The dashboard itself is written entirely in ASP, using open coding standards like XML and WebDAV. This should be no secret, as the code for the dashboard is freely available as a part of the DDRK. Also, there are a couple of precompiled binary components which do not make use of the .NET runtime. These are the Digital Dashboard Services Component (DDSC), and the ISAPI redirect dll (SQL version only). It is however more than possible to consume .NET services with a Web Part. This is a fine way to integrate the current dashboard code with your .NET based solutions. Also, when and if the dashboard does move to the .NET platform, the Web Parts for the current platform will likely be supported, allowing continued use of your .NET based solution in a fully .NET environment.
6. Microsoft is trying to revolutionize the way we are running applications with the use of .NET. I’ve had some information where whole applications will run through the web. How can someone run/download an application, like Photoshop for example, through the Internet? Won’t that be too slow for a 56k/ISDN modems (still very popular in Europe)?
Zac Woodall: So for those of you out there who haven’t yet built your own .NET app you’ll be pleasantly surprised to learn that a full GUI app can be compiled into an 11K .exe file. The really amazing thing is that you can build a hello world colorized with support for changing the color via a color dialog in not much more! The good news is we’ve built a very rich runtime, which means that app size won’t grow much because much of the key functionality gets automatically baked into apps.
So let’s apply this to a real world scenario like Photoshop. What impact could .NET have on building a downloadable version of a large app like this?
1) exes are much smaller.
In the Photoshop case, how much code is responsible for drawing all the palettes, icons, toolbars, windows, etc? All that code boils down to almost nothing in .NET, since it comes from the already installed runtime.
2) What are the other big components in Photoshop? Filters maybe? It seems likely.
All the filters/transforms that you want to apply are (sometimes very complicated) algorithms which take up storage space on your machine. Wouldn’t it be way cooler if you could farm that stuff out to a server somewhere? I don’t know about you, but I never use all the filters available in Photoshop. Wouldn’t it be cool if the app could connect using SOAP to a server at Adobe here in Seattle and download the filter you wanted to use when you wanted to use it? Of course the filter would be written in Managed C code for performance reasons never know when you’re going to want to break into assembly in code like that. You could just pull down the binary over the wire (you’re authenticated through Passport as someone who really did pay for Photoshop) and go. Wow, that’s like a whole new definition of plug-and-play.
7. Is the next Windows OS version going to be partly written in C#, or C++? How many Microsoft projects have switched to C# development? How easy was the switch from C++ to C#?
Zac Woodall: Well, as I mentioned before, Windows is a very big project (somewhere in the neighborhood of 80M LOC). Today, the core of the OS is all written in C/ASM. This includes areas like Kernel32.dll, GDI32.dll, and the HAL. As you progress farther up the ladder, you run into more and more developer friendly, as opposed to machine friendly, code (e.g. C++). You are likely to see OO code more prominently in higher-level GUI based components of the OS (i.e. Explorer, Instant Messenger, Internet Explorer).
The very next version of the OS which will be released is called Windows.NET Server. Windows .NET Server Beta 3 includes technological improvements to make the system more secure, manageable and scalable than Windows 2000 Server. Windows .NET Server now includes the .NET Framework that delivers the infrastructure to build, deploy and manage applications that fundamentally allow for rapid change to organizations business models.
As for farther out the next business platform, I’m not sure. What I can tell you is that on a company wide scale, Microsoft is moving toward service oriented offerings, and in the service oriented world it makes more sense to continually provide smaller software upgrades than to waterfall a huge update every few years. In a world where components are continually being upgraded over the wire, I can see a definite reason to develop those components using the .NET runtime: small exe size.
8. How DirectX games are going to be developed in the future? Will .NET also have a solution for web-launched games? Also, how feasible will it be to write games in C# instead of x86 assembly, C, or C++?
Zac Woodall: Though it is certainly possible to write games in C#, and several internal Microsoft programmers are indeed building “arcade pack” type games using the language, tool, and framework, the best performance for the most extensive use of graphics will still likely come from C/C++. To put it plainly, if you’re doing limited graphics work, C# with or without unsafe code will be fine. If you’re building the next great first-person shooter, you’d probably want to stick with C/C++.”
9. I know that you have used BeOS and you are familiar with the BeOS attributed file system and query system. Windows XP, with the use of NTFS 5 has pretty much the same capabilities, but “restricts” Explorer to only activate attributes for mp3s, images and albums. Why not switch over completely to such a system and maybe add the MIME file typing solution on XP?
Zac Woodall: NTFS actually has supported streaming of data along side files since the NT 4 era, so this ability in itself is not particularly new. To be honest, I believe that exposing features of the OS is the job of the application developer. Explorer has taken the time to add support for streams on particular file types, which in my opinion is a great addition, but I do not believe that it is appropriate to bombard users with information about every single file. I think that would create confusion among some of the less technically savvy Microsoft users. Again, to remember the focus of Windows: Windows is designed to be used by your grandmother, as well as your boss. Had explorer been purely intended for developer use, I would suggest a more general mechanism for editing streamed data, but it wasn’t. As further qualification, the relationship between Explorer and NTFS is not my true are of expertise.
10. How does it feel working for Microsoft? Do you guys have fun over there or do you work “20 hours a day” as a Microsoft job description once stated?
Zac Woodall: Microsoft is the best company a developer could ever want to work for (assuming s/he wants to get paid, and not live out of a briefcase). What do I love most about Microsoft? I get the chance to work with a group of people widely considered to be among the brightest Software Engineers in the world, and the work that I personally do has a direct impact on millions of people’s every day lives. You just can’t beat that for feeling like you’re really making a difference in the world and where people are headed as a species.
I love the fact that one of my family members from Arkansas who doesn’t even own a computer can say, “What’s your job, Zac?” and I can give them a reply they understand, “I work as a software developer for Microsoft”.
I love to work with the people I work with, they are without question the brightest group of single individuals gathered in pursuit of a common goal I have ever had the pleasure to be a part of. Some people think that Microsoft employees only know Microsoft, that we just have no idea what else is out there. The fact of the matter is that I work with all types of people from all around the world, with all kinds of experience under their belts (heck, I was a UNIX system administrator while in school before I came here; not only that, but I was a Mac freak to boot! This type of background is not uncommon among developers here, just like any other professional software development house).
I like the fact that I work with young people. The oldest guy on our team of 18 developers is in his mid-thirties. I like the fact that I work with people who accomplish goals. Instead of saying, “Wouldn’t it be nice if…” they are out there making the future happen, one line of C code at a time.
Finally, I like the free beer. We spend a good deal of time in team building exercises, like go-cart racing, playing X-Box, Waterskiing, attempting the Milk Bet, or just drinking beer and listening to music out in the patio around the fountain. Every day I go for a walk around our campus, along the trails through the forest, by Lake Bill, and past the picnic tables and the big fountain outside building 8. On top of all this, the pay is good, and the benefits are better. Plus, even though I’m a dev, I periodically get the chance to travel on business. There’s nothing quite like the feeling of 400 people paying good money to come here you talk, and still having the wherewithal to laugh at your stupid jokes.
As far as “20 hours a day” goes, I don’t think I’ve ever done that. Our work policy is: get your work done. I tend personally to be a bit of an overachiever, and have spent my share of 16 hour days at work. I’m more the exception than the rule though. Many Microsoft employees work a typical 8-10 hour day. We truly work on flex time though, so some people show up at 8am (like me) and others cruise in at 11am. It all depends on how you want to orient your schedule. As a plus, we get free sodas/drinks and most devs get their own office; no cubes for me thanks.
Oh yeah, one more thing: unlike College, I almost never work on the weekend, because I don’t have to. I love my job!
That has got to be the perfect job!!! it sounds like utopia there. taking walks every morning, flexable schedules, m-f, free refreshments, a think-tank type environment, fun and games. I would love to work for MS, even for 30k per year, just for the benifits!!
Sounds like a great job.
Even though I’m a developer I wouldn’t want to work like this though. For me, and many other OSS developers, coding is a hobby and I honestly wouldn’t like to have someone telling me what to achieve with my code. I do my code for fun, and I do it when I want.
I have a very good job which doesn’t have with computers to do at all.
But for one who sees coding as a carrier MS is probably a very good company to work for in many cases.
Too bad he forgot to mention that REBOL has small “executables” too ;] REBOL had it before stoopid .NET
(no i’m not REBOL fanatic, i don’t even know it
Too bad he didn’t tell more about future technologies coming from MS.
Ie I would like to how the MS 3D interface work is progressing (http://www.research.microsoft.com/research/ui/). Has any of that technology been adopted by for end-user applications yet?
>Too bad he didn’t tell more about future technologies coming from MS.
<P>
I would think that Microsoft PR has cut down lots of info that was originally in Zac’s reply. 😉
For example, I ask about Office.NET and Lists and never get a real reply about the matter. I ask about AI and I get a reply about speech recognition. That could only be a PR in the works, not a real engineer.
<P>
Worry not though. I have the exact same problems with Apple’s PR, while SGI’s PR they don’t even emailing me back (engineers are *always all cool*, but the PR is another story).
The technology behind REBOL has looked very promising for long. The syntax for REBOL is really simple once you get to know it (I’ve looked into it a bit).
You can try out REBOL here – http://www.rebol.com/download.html
The problem with REBOL is that doesn’t have the same backings as .NET which has got alot of cash AND will be incorporated with and OS that totally dominates the desktop market.
I’m afraid MS is winning in the commercial market once again without even introducing anything new, just putting together old concepts and forcing it to the market with money and marketing.
the 3d user interface is a bad idea…and it is plain horrible
ealm -> yeah, so true
((
Eugenia -> interview had to be “polished” by PR ;] It just stinks with propaganda ;]
It is obvious that he has never read the GPL, as it has specific provisions that allow the owner of the IP to protect themselves. Learn about something before you spout off about it.
>It is obvious that he has never read the GPL, as it has specific provisions
>that allow the owner of the IP to protect themselves. Learn about something
>before you spout off about it.
Hmm, not according to our lawyers. Yours must be better than ours though.
Can you tell enlighten us on the subject then?
AFAIK the problem here isn’t about rights of the code owner – the problem is that when your commercially licensed code gets too influenced by GPL code some of it might belong to the author of the GPL code.
And if I understand Zac right MS has got this policy on GPL to make sure no-one can claim that the code inherits parts of their GPL licensed code.
Hmm, well I don’t want to get into any trouble here, so I’ll try and state this in a very PR oriented way:
Microsoft wishes to retain ALL rights to it’s IP, that is every line of code it develops. Some pieces of the GPL make this hard to do while simultaneously including code destributed under the GPL in a product. The BSD licence is a little different in this regard, which may explain why some pieces of code under this licence have been considered more viable for commercial use.
That’s pretty much all I can say. I wish I could talk out all the details, but doubtless some black hearted person would have my head on a chopping block for doing so.
is this a parody?
“Lake Bill”?? Does such a thing exist? It seems scarcely credible
And an employee of such a vast corporation is delighted that they provide free soft drinks?
Surely this is a joke
…before speaking about GPL.
GPL is a licence about code source and copyright, not about ideas.
Patents are about ideas, and not seeing any code source is no protection against
patents so he should worry about software patents restricting he coding abilities not GPL. That is of course if Microsoft did not have enough “defensive” patents by itself …
Ignorance of FUD ?
You choose, I myself cannot believe such a “mistake” could slip through Microsoft PR, so it must have been pushed forward !
Anybody can read as much GPL code as he/she wants. As long as YOU write your own dawn code, you do have to GPL anything !
You can always choose the licence of YOUR code.
I’m happy for this guy, really. But there is no way in hell I could feel OK about what I do as long as I worked for the bad guys!
To :TaCo[fungi]
So we agree that GPL code INCLUSION , NOT READING cause trouble ?
So he answer “we can?t look at it” is misleading. Upon careful reading, it almost seems devious:
“we can?t look at it” : first straight answer, flat out misleading, BUT not wrong
(it’s a policy, not pretending to be the truth)
sentence about derivative work : completly true and accurate
sentence about ideas : completly true BUT completely irrelevent (GPL is NOT about ideas, patents are)
AND the final conclusion: ” It seems to me ” [PR speaking !] … “should be very careful …”:
aka “you never know, you’d better stick to what you’re currently doing, no one get fired …”. Microsoft PR, thank you for the advice about the GPL …
F.U.D., and a masterpiece 🙂
“(you?re authenticated through Passport as someone who really did pay for Photoshop)”
If I’d have to use Microsoft Passport to use Adove Photoshop, that surely is a piece of news that would deserve better that brakets !!!
Yeah, fits in with MS’s “toll keeper” strategy. Not sure if this is urban legend or not, but I beleive BIll G was quated as saying that as a youngster he sat watching the traffic go past the lights or something and thought to himself if only I had a penny for each car that went past…
P
About this MS-Brain-Washed Guy Zac, I bet he never read a copy of the GPL in his life… Oh right it isn’t his job to do that… just to spill out MS-Propaganda. Also I don’t if anyone at MS is allowed to use Linux or anyother free, open source software they’d propably get fired, So they can’t see the power of Linux and other free unixs. And as for him being a Mac fan in collage, its ovious that MS bought him. Person I think this articule smell of Bill’s dirty socks, possibly he rested them on the notes he wrote for it!
Are you sure the answers you got were from him?
The answer to question 1 was pur PR speak and answer to question 5 didn’t deal with the question at all.
Microsoft Innovates – Dream on.
That was actually a fairly good interview… it would have been better if Microsoft PR didn’t polish it so much… Hey, Eugenia – could you get an interview with some one from QSSL?
I for one am glad to know that .NET will happily “farm out” the storage of perfomance critical code to third party servers on the other end of my flaky Internet connection. This is especially critical since a 40 Gig hard drive costs approximately the same amount as two months of connection charges.
Sign me up for outsourcing all of the pesky filter storage. Especially if it is going to verify that I have kept my Photoshop subscription up to date. I would hate to have to miss a payment.
The reason that Microsoft is moving away from the “waterfall of changes” model is quite simple. They are sick and tired of having to cajole us all into upgrading. A very signficant portion of Windows users are still using Windows 95. That means that Microsoft hasn’t made a dime off of those folks in years. .NET allows them to charge their customers on a much more regular basis, and so Microsoft pundits are hyping .NET straight to the moon. Don’t pretend that the end users want such a beast, because they don’t.
Hey guys, be good to Zac. Zac is a good guy and he is certainly not responsible for the ‘PR polishing’ that may took place.
>Hey, Eugenia – could you get an interview with some one from QSSL?
We had a http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=91“>QNX just 2 months ago.
And that reminds me!!!
When Nicholas was preparing this QNX interview for OSNews, I did not know about it, so I sent my own set of questions to John Fehr, engineer at QSSL these days. But, guess who replied instead: The QSSL’s PR. And they asked me to go through the PR in the future if I wanted an interview.
So, please be kind to Zac. In every big company, it is always the same. PR has the last word. As I already mentioned above, Apple and SGI are exactly the same too, if not worse (in fact Apple are very difficult to get a non-fuzzy reply, while SGI simply do not reply at all
— at least the guy from Microsoft’s PR was a real gentleman in his replies to me).
What is it with all this Microsoft bashing? I agree that DOS/3.1/95/NT were jokes, but with Windows 2000 Microsoft have finally created something magnificant (and I used to be a BeOS zealot). Their applications are pretty decent too. It seems that Zac enjoys his work environment, and if given the opportunity I’d join him in a heartbeat. At the end of the day, its just a day job. Since we spend 1/3 of our lives at work, its important that we enjoy the environment – and Zac seems to be having a ball. Good for him.
My previous job (in a Casino) had free food, drinks, plenty of entertainment (party mood visitors) etc but I hated the work environment. My current job has no freebies but I love working here. We all get kicks from different things, and its great to know that some people can have their cake and eat it too.
Zenja–
Windows 2000? Magnificent? I’m sorry, the only thing that makes Win2000 good is the apps, and I can’t conscoinably support it because MS coerces the developers to make them. Hell, they aren’t that good anyway, when you can get free equivalents on BeBits… Since when could you read ext2fs on Windows (which is important in an academic community) or manage your Mp3s in the filesystem… How about right-clicking your windows to send them into the back? Or multiple workspaces? How about killing annoying apps when they die, or restarting critical parts of the OS without a reboot when they go wrong?
I’m a power user, but some of these capabilities are *very* basic, easy to learn (unless you use linux), and very convenient.
When could you write your own apps without getting the blue screen of death with a funky pointer, or, hell, write your own apps without bumming a copy of MSVC++ (or paying through the nose)…
MS’s corporate strategy is to restrict the user, constrict the developer, and coerce the producer… Eventually the pains of this attitude will catch up to them and they will fall.
“We had a QNX interview just 2 months ago.
”
Doh! I can’t belvie I forgot about that!
lol…
“And that reminds me!!!
When Nicholas was preparing this QNX interview for OSNews, I did not know about it, so I sent my own set of questions to John Fehr, engineer at QSSL these days.”
Cool!
“But, guess who replied instead: The QSSL’s PR.”
Aww. That stinks! I hate PR…
“And they asked me to go through the PR in the future if I wanted an interview.”
🙁
“So, please be kind to Zac. In every big company, it is always the same. PR has the last word.”
I will… i’m glad you got an interview from him, I did enjoy it!
“As I already mentioned above, Apple and SGI are exactly the same too, if not worse (in fact Apple are very difficult to get a non-fuzzy reply, while SGI simply do not reply at all
–”
That stinks!
“at least the guy from Microsoft’s PR was a real gentleman in his replies to me). ”
Well, that’s good! Yes, I am in a very happy mood, which is why I am using so many ! marks. I don’t know why, consdier my sewar backed up last weekend and carpet from two rooms (including mine) has to be repalce. And a ton of stuff had to be moved up all the way from downstairs to upstairs… but I probley shouldn’t complain too much… nothing important was lost (except 200 dollars which was stolen, but we got the money back…) and I am atlease still in my house…
anyways, enoguh of that it’s just pointless rambling…
Don’t be fooled: .net is only about lock-in and subscription… not photoshop filters.
I’ve had very bad sentiments towards Microsoft ever since my Amiga days, but you’ve got to admit that W2K is the first decent OS from Redmond (the blue screens are a 16bit/Win95 legacy). Its not perfect (BeOS is the closest we’ve got to perfect, but alas, we ran out of breath on the last mile). Almost every other system out there is more friendly towards developers. Every time I sit in front of Windows I miss my Terminal/BASH window, multiple workspaces, logical directory structures, logical API’s, mountable foreign filesystems etc
Even though I dream of driving a Ferarri or a Porsche on special fuel, at the end of the day the market is optimised for medium sized family cars which run on unleaded fuel, have cheap spare parts (inferior quality) and allow the standard car CD player to be installed since the mounting plate is the correct size. The bizarre thing is that if everyone were to purchase Ferarri’s, the shear economy of scale would bring their price down to a point where everyone could afford to drive it. Then we’d dream for station wagons (or whatever) since they’re multipurpose heavy duty vechicles, but since their demand is low they’d cost more and run on diesel or similar.
After 15 years of this, you’re finally worn out and just decide to blend in. Your new expensive Sony car CD played fits perfectly in the mounting bracket. Only on weekends do you take your lovely Ferarri for a spin and dare to dream of a different world.
Back to Civ3 (opps, I meant work).
to Bernard Hugueney
Ideas are NOT patentable. Thats like one of the number 1 criteria for a patent that it must be something real, somthing that exsist or at the least can be shown how you would do it on paper just shy of building it (since prototypes cost money). You can’t patent and idea since you can’t show it works or anything its just a thought out of you ass till you make it.
> Ideas are NOT patentable.
You have a point, but that ignores the fact that there are a _tonne_ of ridiculous patents out there. For example, Unisys’ LZW (as used in the GIF image format) patents cover _very_ simple compression techniques which don’t deserve a patent. McAfee have patents on web services, and Apple even has patents on desktop theming.
Microsoft holds heaps of nonsense patents. The funny thing is that the idea of software patents is backfiring on them – apparently .NET encroaches on patents held by InterTrust (DRM) and a host of other companies. There is actually a good chance that .NET may be stopped by the courts unless these companies agree to license their IP to MS.
Of course, this whole stupid idea of software patenting is only applicable in the USA.
That he said business is only about making money. So their best solution is to just steal our money directly. It should at least be making something useful. People in large companys always seem lost to me, byt hey, they got the benefits…
You are probably right that MS.NET will succeed. IT was always so. I don’t find myself MS inovatory company.
What most ppl forget nowadays is, that in 3 – 5 years, we are going to see more and more mobile devices. I think that MS will not gain 90+ % in that market, as in the case of desktop PCs. There are other OSes too. If MS.Net is not going to be cross-platform, many users will be restricted and other services will step-in.
You probably completly forgot about Tao-Group’s Intent. It seems to be leader in electronic devices area (VCR etc. stuff), very popular currently in Japan, backed by investors as Sony, Motorola, JVC and OCPA organisation. Tao’s Intent is LIVE and WORKING .NET. Their VP (virtual processor) technology looks cool. IIRC OSNews brought interview with Tao Group’s representative some time ago too … btw: Sun’s rep joined Tao’s board of directors …
As for Rebol – just don’t depreciate it. REBOL/IOS is near completion and once Morpheus 2 get’s based upon Rebol, Rebol will spread to many users. What is more – Rebol is cross-platform, although not free. Rebol wins thru its simplicity, power of expression. It is pleasure to code in (once you get used to its syntax 🙂
Then we should not forget JAVA of course, but Sun is not doing enough to make .ONE a success imo …
Cheers,
-pekr-
>> Zenja
> I’ve had very bad sentiments towards Microsoft ever since my Amiga days, but you’ve got to admit that W2K is the first decent OS from Redmond (the blue screens are a 16bit/Win95 legacy).
True – the Blue screen of death on Win2k is in a higher resolution. think its 160 characters across rather than 80.
Re: decent – as opposed to what OS feature wise? / stability wise?
Amusingly enough XBox has a green screen of death from the shots i’ve seen
I would like to have the official Snail address and EMail of Zak Woodall to make a respond about his not view on GPL ?
But the Zac Woodall use BSD (ok it’s not GPL) :
http://www.monkey.org/openbsd/archive/tech/9801/msg00017.html
Yes it seems to be the same age, same university, same degree…
I suspect Microsoft to make an excellent propaganda on how bad is free software and propagade false idea (check out : the propaganda howto during second war…)
For example : http://www.foo.be/microsoft/
I’m amazed that people get amazed by being able to do a simple Hello world program
in 11Kb.
The amazing thing is how the heck it can be as *large* as 11Kb!!
Doesn’t seem to be too many people from the good ol’ days (c64, amiga etc)…
hey.. who gives two shits what MS thinks or does with the GPL. Is it necessary to sit here and whine about it for 10 posts?? Even if all of you DID read the GPL.. i guarantee everyoen of you would come back with a different view of it after you read it. So instead of moaning, try and make a license that isn’t so vague and hard to understand.
If you spent half as much time trying to be creative as you did complaining about microsoft, we’d all be much happier.
I don’t think so… someone at M$ has been looking at my GPL’d code. From my Apache server logs:
tide117.microsoft.com – – [03/Jan/2001:18:42:17 -0500] “GET /pppoe/rp-pppoe-2.5.tar.gz HTTP/1.0” 200 86317
tide120.microsoft.com – – [31/Aug/2001:04:06:23 -0400] “GET /pppoe/rp-pppoe-3.2.tar.gz HTTP/1.0” 200 170524
There are a few other snippets of Microsofties downloading my PPPoE software. And now Windows XP has native PPPoE support… Hmmmmmmmmm….. 🙂
Sigh…
Ok, I know it’s feeding the FUD, BUT….
*PLEASE* read the faq’s before spouting off about what the GPL allows and disallows.(http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html).
I’d like to think that the FSF Attorney’s know the GPL better than M$’s corporate shills.
My other question…how does he know how well WINE works (and how it handles the situations he lists), unless of course he actually looked at WINE and it’s codebase….
Also…Microsoft has bought companies in the past that (ala Interix) that use GPL’d software, so the comment about not looking at GPL’d code doesn’t hold up from that standpoint either.
For a bit more info on what GPL software Microsoft uses, the MS guy should talk to Microsoft’s OSS Working group (or contact jgemmell, jehkim, or mernst in the Research group, as they all work with GPL’d software).
In addition, Microsoft used to host (and use) the Fnord! Web server on their research webserver (it’s since been taken down), so they can’t claim they have never used (or in thier own words been “Contaminated” by) the GPL.
sigh…
I doubt that ‘looking’ at GPL code would destroy your stolen IP ‘rights’ zak. That sounds LIEk more of the same old billonlyus bs we’ve become accustomed to. &, I doubt anybody wants much to do with your ‘secret’ m$ liesense kode (red?), other than for a chuckle or two.
Welcome to the brave GNU world zak. We’ll be http://www.scaredcity.com>here web” rel=”nofollow”>http://www.opensourceworks.com>web address giveaway), & <a href=http://www.linuxville.com>here, & 1000’s of other .places, for you, should you need something that really works, & is not some kind of bogus ?pr? hypenosys bs, when the felonious kingdumb’s bugwear liesense scam goes final potty. fud on.
Just to keep the record straight…
I read in a few posts where patents are about ideas. No. You cannot patent an idea. You can only patent an invention. You don’t patent the idea behind a hoola-hoop, you patent the hoola-hoop. If you COULD patent an idea, it would be much to broad and stifle competition. For example, let’s say I patented the idea behind a six-shot revolver, that means you probably could not patent or even produce a seven or five shot revolver.
Patent=invention
Have a good one!
If it wasn’t for Microsoft so parinoid on prtecting their property rights, the GNU people would have what they need to have decent software that competes with you on an even scale. It is because you and your company are so paranoid that the schism is active in the world. What is needed is the free & open access to the code and then let the public decide who has the better programmers and code. As you have shown before, hiding behind the proprietary mask is the only way for you to survive – not in freee space. If it is better, I will pay for it, if not – you lose as you have up to now. The world is turning against you -accept our challage and let the war really be conducted on a level playing field – not behind so much advertising BUZZ.
“In my honest opinion, I would much rather work in a company who?s primary focus is research and development of new ideas and tools, than one who only makes money in supporting others? ideas. After all, in the end of the day businesses are designed for one thing: to make money.”
What a FREAKIN crock of BS! In his “honest opinion”? He doesn’t have an honest opinion after that statement. Honestly, MS has stolen, bribed, and bought out more technology than any company in history.
That’s the official policy but I know for a fact that Microsoft programmers do look at GPLed software. It is also true that Microsoft has hired programmers whos only practical experience is in Linux kernel hacking. I wonder why?
I work with and have talked with many Microsoft employees. They all love working for the company. One thing that seems apparent is that shortly after joining the company, they become Microsoft zealots (when they were not before). I think that there must be some sort of brainwashing going on. Perhaps they put some sort of chemical agent in all of those free drinks…
WizardOfOz
A couple ways to make Windows 2000 livable for ex-BeOS users. Note that both of these cost money.
(1) Get Object Desktop from Starcode. Most people know this just as WindowBlinds, which gives you the ability to “skin” windows. That’s still a really important feature, but it can add a great deal more–I haven’t explored all the oddities in ObjectBar and DesktopX. One major thing this gives me is, yes, multiple desktops. I miss BeOS’s [Alt]+[~] command for switching between two quickly, and it’s a bit quirky, but a less functional multiple desktop bar is better than none at all. And ObjectZip is actually one of the best archive managers I’ve used.
(2) Get Take Command/32 from JP Software. TC/32 is a descendant of 4DOS, and it’s essentially a real shell for Windows. It’s not a Unix shell, but at least in my experience I’ve preferred TC/32 than the Windows port of bash; TC/32 just “feels native” whereas Windows bash feels like the fish out of water that it is. TC/32 is at least as powerful as a Unix shell and has some features I actually miss on occasion when I’m using bash or zsh–for instance, all TC/32 builtins can accept date ranges, and I can tell you that coming up with a command that means “show all files in the current directory and those under it that have been modified in the last two weeks” is a damn sight easier in TC/32.
I really do like Unix. My work machine is FreeBSD-based so I have a great deal of experience with it, there are some truly dynamite things about it when it comes to system management (the ports tree and CVSup really kick ass, even compared to Debian’s apt system), and the absence of a few basic Unix-isms drive me nuts in Windows–whose bright idea was it to make a “modern” file system that doesn’t support symbolic links? But on a day-to-day basis, it’s been easier for me to bring Windows 2000 up to a livable point–which I define as “sensible enough to get out of my way”–than it has been for me to do that with FreeBSD or any Linux distributions to date.
> So they can’t see the power of Linux and other free unixs
You clearly didn’t read the article. I was a Unix system administrator in college. Also Linux is not Unix, as your statement implies, and the plural of Unix is Unices.
> Hell, they aren’t that good anyway, when you can get free
> equivalents on BeBits…
I know what is on BeBits, and there is nothing that will allow me to read my corporate HR knowledgebase information. I cannot integrate with Siebel; I can’t read OLAP cubes; I can’t run business integration services via XML/SOAP; and I can’t read my email from my Exchange or Notes server, in their native mode. Don’t get me wrong, I like Be, I like it a lot; but it simply does not have the applications support that my fiancee needs to perform HR management tasks at ATT Wireless without administrative access over her machine!
> I’m a power user
Me too, one of my favorite features of XP is that I don’t have to use the mouse… ever (with the exception of clicking links in a web page, because I’m too lazy to tab through them all). Can you do that in your os?
> When could you write your own apps without getting the blue screen
> of death with a funky pointer, or, hell, write your own apps without
> bumming a copy of MSVC++ (or paying through the nose)…
I don’t think you’ve really used Win2K. I’ve never seen Win2K bluescreen for any reason short of a driver failure (and Be has been known to just hang on these w/o providing a kernel dump). As for developing Windows apps, http://www.msdn.microsoft.com“>MSDN Microsoft” rel=”nofollow”>http://www.microsoft.com/msdownload/platformsdk/sdkupdate/”>Mic… SDKs for free.
> There are other OSes too. If MS.Net is not going to be cross-platform,
> many users will be restricted and other services will step-in.
.NET is not platform dependent.
> It seems to be leader in electronic devices area (VCR etc. stuff),
> very popular currently in Japan, backed by investors as Sony
Ultimate TV, Sony’s current DSR is a joint venture with Microsoft.
> Then we should not forget JAVA of course, but Sun is not doing enough
> to make .ONE a success imo …
A third party has Java running in .NET, and it runs a factor of 10 times faster than it’s native environment.]
> My other question…how does he know how well WINE works
> (and how it handles the situations he lists), unless of course he
> actually looked at WINE and it’s codebase….
I don’t. Any situation that I mentioned would be based on what I know was a difficult situation to deal with from our end.
> the MS guy should talk to Microsoft’s OSS Working group
I will do that, thanks for the pointer. What I spoke about in my interview was general policy.
> What is needed is the free & open access to the code and then let
> the public decide who has the better programmers and code.
The public? Who, your grandmother? Right. I think most people really don’t care whether the source for the code is available. I also don’t think the general public cares who has better programmers. What the general public does care about is getting their work done, and until GPL solutions are capable of plugging in to all the largest and most business critical (not the hacker business, but the banking business, the car building business, the soft drink business, …) they will not undermine Microsoft’s dominance in those areas. Anyway, why are you so stuck on the GPL? What’s wrong with the http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.html“>MIT ? If you TRULY believe in open and free software development, it is a much better way to go.
> It is also true that Microsoft has hired programmers whos only
> practical experience is in Linux kernel hacking. I wonder why?
Probably because they were good at writing C code. MS does not discriminate against interview candidates based on their background.
> I think that there must be some sort of brainwashing going on.
> Perhaps they put some sort of chemical agent in all of those free
> drinks…
HA! You make me smile, man. Well, if there are chemicals in the drinks, I guess I’m pretty much sunk. [Jamie, is that you??]
> I miss BeOS’s [Alt]+[~] command for switching between two quickly, and
> it’s a bit quirky, but a less functional multiple desktop bar is better
> than none at all.
If you have WindowsXP, you can download the PowerToys from Microsoft’s web site for free. They come with virtual desktop funcitonality, and the ability to bind a key combination for each desktop.
> I really do like Unix. My work machine is FreeBSD-based so I have a
> great deal of experience with it
I like you, you seem like a good person. Did anyone else notice that those comments contributed by the very Linux minded people seemed on the whole to take much more offense at my interview than those by the Be/Mac/BSD folks?
Overall, thank you very much for your comments. I genuinely appreciate constructive, well thought out feedback from sources outside the company.
As for those few sorry comments which had little or no actual content other than to bash Microsoft just for being Microsoft, comments dripping with sarcasm without technical merit or grounded assumptions, to the authors of those comments I say: grow up. You know who you are. Stop trying to look cool in front of your friends; and do us all a favor by stopping to think through your next area of commentary before wasting our screen space with your mindless babble.
>It is obvious that he has never read the GPL, as it has specific provisions
>that allow the owner of the IP to protect themselves. Learn about something
>before you spout off about it.
>> Hmm, not according to our lawyers. Yours must be better than ours though.
That’s not your lawyers talking, it’s your spin doctors. Your employer is (among other things) trying to get people to either not write free software or use a license such as the BSD license that will allow your employer to use the code. There is nothing contemplative or statesmanlike in this. This is a PR war with specific objectives directly related to money and power.
For an interesting discussion of this article from a GPL oriented crowd, see:
http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-11-20-010-20-IN-MS
There is an attitude in this interview that software with GPL or similar licenses can’t sustain a business, but in some cases it’s the exact opposite. For example, take the case of Sleepycat Software. They release their source code with a GPL-like license, so anyone can use it if they accept those licensing terms. If someone wants to use Sleepycat’s software in a proprietary product, they can negotiate a traditional licensing agreement. According to the CEO of Sleepycat, they’ve been profitable since the beginning and they wouldn’t have succeeded with a different license, such as a BSD-derived licenses. Other companies like TrollTech and Borland are using similar strategies.
Here’s a link to the recent interview with Sleepcat’s CEO:
http://www.winterspeak.com/columns/102901.html
Another fallacy that one often sees in interviews with people from Microsoft is the idea that the only way to support software development is to sell software licenses. The fact is there are many ways for programmers to write software and get paid for it. In fact, quite a lot of software development is in-house stuff that directly supports the business and is never seen outside of the company.
As much as the next nice-guy, I would like to read an interview with Microsoft engineers, developers, etc and be able to see them as normal people like anyone else. However, that PR junk (salesmanship, questions ignored and evaded like politicians are well known to do) just makes the interviewee seem like a mindless slave (which I know he is not). It is a shame that MS would take advantage of an honest interview in that way and make the guy look so bad. I have no hard feelings towards him at all; only disappointment in the interview overall (not Eugenia’s fault).
I also have this feeling that people who work for MS are 100% convinced by what the company claims. They honestly believe they are doing the right things. However, it is clear that the main motivation is to make money and they admit to it. The amount of focus that MS employees put on business being about making money is frightening. If you have the goal of making money as your primary, then all else takes a back seat. This includes customer service, product quality and consumer choice. It shows.
It isn’t the post-DOJ-trial public view of MS or the OSS community that changed my opinion of MS from “so they’re successful, big deal” to “I hope the company is disassembled by the DOJ;” it was Microsoft’s products and behaviors that convinced me that they are an “evil” running rampent in the computer industry. I do not mean “evil” in the biblical sense, either.
Microsoft has abused me personally as a consumer and a customer and as a professional on so many levels that I chose to take sides against them. They have themselves to blame, not mindless OSS zealots.
Money is not what life is about and will not work towards the positive evolution of the human species. You are mistaken and misguided to say that and to believe it. I wonder what it takes for each person to see beyond the inherent abusive and anti-humanitarian greed that Microsoft claims is our salvation; some people are open to the truth of the situation and others are not. This isn’t religion; it is reality and does not need the grey area arguments that religion hides behind. So, what are you missing? Perhaps it is the money that blinds. As long as people see a steady stream of money coming from their use of the MS dominance, they will be content and accept.
There’s more to life than money.
I don’t buy anything from that article
Next PR please
I must say that I’m really sorry for this Zac dude that he has to resort to lying about M$ GPL usage to keep his employer happy.
There’s ample evidence that M$ employees look at GPL code, and they are in their full right to do so. One example: the IPv6 group of Miscrosoft Research based their experimental IPv6 HTTP server on the GPLed ‘Fnord!’ server. And in full compliance they released their modifications under the GPL as. Unfortenately, after an article on Slashdot about, the PR department forced them to remove code from their site. Luckily, the code was already out on the net and now has found a new home at SourceForge: http://sf.net/projects/msfnord.
I doubt very much that this Zac “dude” would want you to feel sorry for him. Sounds as though he has a pretty good life actually.
When and if any of you learn how to spell and or get off your ass and learn some communication skills….perhaps then what you have to say will be worth writing about.
I’m amazed that people get amazed by being able to do a simple Hello world program in 11Kb. The amazing thing is how the heck it can be as *large* as 11Kb!! Doesn’t seem to be too many people from the good ol’ days (c64, amiga etc)… ”
Yeah, in REBOl it would takes… 230 bytes or so…
<sarcasm>
“When and if any of you learn how to spell”
erm, who? the pepoles that post fedebak or Zac ore Eugenia? (ok, that actulaly waz a seriuos questien) There was only too spelling related typo that me and 2 spell checkers coud find in teh whole articel.
” and or get off your ass and learn some communication skills…”
waaa? i’m confused…
</sarcasm>
My two player VGA Nibbles clone is less than 4k. Not optimized for size. I remember the intro that did the first level of Descent + music in under 4k.
“When and if any of you learn how to spell”
>erm, who? the pepoles that post fedebak or Zac ore Eugenia? (ok, that actulaly >waz a seriuos questien) There was only too spelling related typo that me and 2 >spell checkers coud find in teh whole articel.
” and or get off your ass and learn some communication skills…”
>waaa? i’m confused…
Can anyone else see why Kevin might be confused?
I used PowerToys (and KernelToys) for Windows 95 back when I was running it; now I have Windows 2000. I don’t expect to upgrade to XP in the indefinite future, but it’s nice to know that PowerToys returned. (If there’s a Windows 2000 version of it, I haven’t seen it, although it looks like 2000 has some of those features out of the box and Object Desktop stuffs in some of the rest.)
And, yes, I’ve noticed Linux people tend to be the most frenetic about disliking Microsoft. At least here. The most virulent anti-Microsoft person I know is a local Macintosh fanatic. I like the Mac in a lot of ways–one of the things I liked about BeOS is that it had a lot of the niceties of the Mac UI, a few extras, and added Unix features to that–but the platform’s biggest liabilities sometimes seem to be its evangelists. I’d like to like OS X for the same reason I like BeOS, but as of right now I don’t believe my iBook could run OS X respectably.
:When and if any of you learn how to spell and or get off your ass and learn
:some communication skills….perhaps then what you have to say will be worth
:writing about.
Remember, people who visit this website do so from all parts of the world. Where I live, you’ve made a communication mistake, telling me to get off my donkey. In Australia, we spell backside as “arse”, and only use “ass” when refering to those dumb animals. (Sorry for all the donkey lovers out there
“I work with and have talked with many Microsoft employees. They all love working for the company. One thing that seems apparent is that shortly after joining the company, they become Microsoft zealots (when they were not before). I think that there must be some sort of brainwashing going on. Perhaps they put some sort of chemical agent in all of those free drinks…
” –WizardOfOz
IMO, it is brainwashing, but it’s self-inflicted. Some people simply lack the objectivity or strength of character required to honestly admit something they are associated with may not in fact be great. You know, that guy with the tiny japanese econo-car who thinks it’s an awesome street machine, or the OSS zealot who thinks linux is easy to use, or in this case, the MS employees who willfully blind themselves to their employers utter lack of ethics.
First – I was confused of mixed posts reply 🙂
Well, as for BeOS and your inability to run your favourite software. Who gives a s…, if you throw in such proprietary software? Connection to Exchange? Heh, Lotus Notes? As for Exchange, we had to switch back to Linux, because it was pretty much slow crap back then. It took 70% of system resources on P133 machine, and even second procesor could not help 🙂 Linux was OK, no problems with receiving messages. We use Lotus Domino/Notes as intranet system, but really – stop talking crap – nobody expects running LN in other than intranet/corporate environment. I work for company with more than 60 servers intstalled, with some 2K+ LN users, so just don’t try to tell me I have no insight …
As for SOAP, XML – are you really so lazy to even check the situation? BeOS has Rebol, it has Python and I believe that you would found solution, if you would be willing to do so …
As for Tao. Stop spreading FUD and weight your arguments. You just took one example here, while the situation seems to be the reverse. Try to look at Tao’s website: http://tao-group.com/2/tao/press/20010910-bow.html , and even better go directly here: http://tao-group.com/2/tao/press/20010910-ocpa.html . And then – stop sounding like there is nothing except MS, because there are areas of IT, where noone takes MS seriously … count on it …
-pekr-
This guy reminds me of the Cardinal that would not look through Galilleo’s telescope to see the moons of Jupiter. He did not have to look, he said, because his faith told him there would be nothing to see. And if he was to stay true to his faith, then he should not test it by looking.
This fellow with his GPL yap has the same attitude. And where does his faith come from? Why Microsoft’s lawyers! They say it is bad to look at GPL code, and he won’t go against his faith and the instructions of his holy superiors.
I’ve never seen so many twitchy Geeks/Nerds
Broken wheels make the most noise.
Work at Microsoft is pleasant and rewarding and well paid.
Check Joel from http://www.joelonsoftware.com – he worked fo M$ and has something
to tell.
Now try the mental experiment : replace ‘Microsoft’ with ‘KGB’ .
Microsoft hires the best, you’ll work with smart people like yourself,
your work will save other people lives, you may go see the whole world on company account, free drinks, free geek toys, free what-did-you-asked-for.
Dream job.
Some drawbacks – your interview to OSNews should go through PR department first.
Don’t look into non-Microsoft people code too (no wonder MS talks about innovations – they have to, otherwise they get sued). Well, KGB doesn’t have this limitation for sure, but KGB doesn’t advertised its innovations neither.
KGB in Russia is a huge organization – think of combined FBI+CIA+ATF+NSA and it’s not all. There are R&D facilities there too and people who work there don’t involved in dirty stuff (at least directly).
>Remember, people who visit this website do so from all parts of the world. >Where I live, you’ve made a communication mistake, telling me to get off my >donkey. In Australia, we spell backside as “arse”, and only use “ass” when >refering to those dumb animals. (Sorry for all the donkey lovers out there
Well perhaps I did not make a mistake….
It was fairly obvious that Microsoft PR injected a fair amount of Microsoft Newspeak into this interview, and censored any discussion of future products or other confidential information. It would have been nice to get the straight dope, but I’ll tell you one thing for sure: Microsoft did not get where it is by allowing its engineers to talk to the press un-chaperoned.
<p>
Developers love to talk about what they’re working on, and they tend to get really excited when talking to reporters and would definitely spill the beans about all kinds of secret stuff. Not only that, but people who are not trained to “stay on message” can be goaded by an experienced interviewer into saying a lot of really stupid stuff.
<p>
So, though I deplore the cheesy and heavyhanded approach that most PR people take, I understand that they’re vitally important, especially for a company like Microsoft, that has a lot to hide, and has a lot of people that would love to trip it up.
Those who cry “wow! that job could be a dream!”:
1) http://www.winterspeak.com/columns/102901.html
Clever opensource developers *do* find the place in business and nice climate.
2) d’ye think even MS has resources (and will) to feed all its staff the was Zac is being done? I personally don’t. Not to scare him…
—
Michael Shigorin <mikeataltlinuxdotru>