“Eventually, we’re going to see Vista come out. Yes, I know, even at this late date, Vista is still getting unexpected delays – it was set to go to manufacturing Oct. 25, but it’s not going to make it – but it is on its way. My question, though, is: What version will actually work for you come that day?”
I cannot help myself… I have to type it…
NONE !
and, yes, I have been testing it for the past 2 years.
And I have to agree with that…
And hey, THAT’s real crippleware (Vista “Starter”):
“It can only access 256MBs of RAM, and you can only run three applications on it at a time.” Sounds like a horror movie to me.
Edited 2006-10-24 21:30
I agree, this is a HORRIBLE decision. I mean, XP + any anti-virus program will use close to if not more than 256MB of ram just after boot. Add in your three “allowed” apps and you’re looking at a horrible experience. While start edition is a slimmer version of Vista I really doubt it is slimmer than XP.
Why Starter Edition is even discussed in the context of the general market is a mystery. Using the possibility of grey market availability is a lame justification.
Starter Edition is meant for developing markets, is usually used on community PCs, is localized specifically for that market, and comes with educational software for teaching people how to use the PC.
It also represents an increase in functionality over XP Starter Edition which has been available for some time and has gained a lot of traction.
I cannot help myself… I have to type it…
NONE !
and, yes, I have been testing it for the past 2 years.
This question is not meant to be answered by linux zealot. Typical home users will give the same answer for question “Which linux distro is the right linux?” because no linuces will work for them.
Yeah, but apparently he wasn’t a Linux zealot if he had been testing Vista for the “past 2 years”
Not to mention no “typical” home user is going to ask the question of which linux distro is the right linux, because any typical home user will just buy a Dell or HP computer that has Windows already on it and won’t know any better.
Yeah, but apparently he wasn’t a Linux zealot if he had been testing Vista for the “past 2 years”
… and I should believe him, because ….. ?
So I guess the “typical home user” who actually does use Linux, and quite happily so, is just a propaganda-sucking moron, huh?
Jeez. If you’re going to bash Linux and/or Linux users, at least try to come up with an argument (or just keep your mouth shut). Unless you’re happy to continue looking dumb. It’s a free country (I presume).
I cannot help myself… I have to type it…
NONE !
I would have to say the same. Sure there are some snazzy things in Vista, but the combined irritations of it would drive me crazy.
Thank goodness there are alternatives ;^)
7 Editions
Okay maybe Linux isn’t perfekt and too easy enough for homeusers, they should buy a Mac.
Or they could download Darwin from Apple’s Open Source site and put GNUStep and Gnome (with an OS X theme) on their PC. 😉
Mh i think the right vista is OS X, it’s the vista version with the most features … xD
okay, joke.
I like the article
If I were to get it, I would probably get the Premium…
It’s not bad, but I did get a little suspicious when I read this:
That’s not an idle question. I knew several businesses that were burned by XP Home when it first came out because they’d assumed they could save a hundred bucks a box and use XP Home PCs on their domain and AD (Active Directory)-based networks.
I figured that if anyone who actually runs or works in an IT department would run out and buy new boxen with the latest, non market tested software, named “Home” and wanted to run in Active Directory, should be taken out back and shot.
No one who does that gets “burned” by Microsoft or “XP Home,” they just got burned by their IT staff.
I don’t even work in IT, and I know that’s a really stuffed policy. Don’t do research, don’t do testing, don’t find out basic features…let’s just buy that “home” edition because it’s cheaper!
(BTW no one runs an AD based company without some sort of resident IT professional, any network large enough for AD should have at least one. If you are running without a business without one…well, heh, I’m sorry for your other employees)
My Windows teacher brought up this very problem early in the class. (Stop laughing; it’s a stupid requirement.) The accounting department needed new systems, so they just ordered a bunch from Dell, and they all came with Home by default, so IT needed to do waaay too much work to get a bunch of upgrade licenses and fix the problem.
Specifics aside, it disgusts me how much people take from Microsoft sitting down just because they’re so thoroughly convinced nothing else exists. Network client functionality shouldn’t be stripped out of any version of any OS just to make an extra hundred.
Which Vista is the right Vista? OS X, and this is not a joke.
Then realised that how much KDE 3.5.5 and Beryl are so much better. OEM’s should wake up and offer their customers better/more alternatives.
I’m just waiting for hell to freeze over.
I will wait with you. Duke Nukem Forever will come first.
Having used KDE since version 3.2.something I’ve never been able to enjoy a Windows interface.
I can’t wait until KDE for Windows is available and see how that runs for those machines where I Have to use Windows.
The Windows fanboys are modding down really fast!
Does Windows have fanboys?
You must be new here 😉
No, that is why is sucesfull.
Snort.
Does Windows have fanboys?
In other words, do Windows users post to every Linux or Mac-related article they can find and advise people that they should drop Mac/Linux and switch to Windows? Not that I have noticed.
Unfortunately, the same can’t be said about the ABM’ers, who just can’t seem to leave it alone. And I wish the mods would start banning certain individuals from posting to any Microsoft-related article on this site, because rarely (if ever) do they have anything constructive to add to the thread, other than the ‘Bill gates is a seal-clubbing bastard! speak.
I admit, I’m a Windows guy. And I really don’t give a shit what OS you use. I don’t know if that classifies me as a fanboy or not.
You’re not a fan boy.
You’re just stupid.
Does Windows have fanboys?
In other words, do Windows users post to every Linux or Mac-related article they can find and advise people that they should drop Mac/Linux and switch to Windows? Not that I have noticed.
Actually, what a perfect example of a Windows fanboy: The modus operandi is to proclaim (or imply) that ALL Linux and/or Mac people do this, that NO Windows person does the reverse, and that consequently ALL Windows people are saner/more intelligent/more discerning than ALL Linux or Mac people. Most Windows users on this site (and I can’t presently think of an example to the contrary, though that doesn’t mean they don’t exist) seem to post pro-Windows articles and responses to alternative OS users with content having the intellectual sophistication of “you use Linux; you smell; therefore all Linux users smell; therefore people should use Windows”.
Unfortunately, the same can’t be said about the ABM’ers, who just can’t seem to leave it alone.
What’s an ABM’er?
And I wish the mods would start banning certain individuals from posting to any Microsoft-related article on this site, because rarely (if ever) do they have anything constructive to add to the thread, other than the ‘Bill gates is a seal-clubbing bastard! speak.
Yep, there’s lots of Windows users like that, too.
I admit, I’m a Windows guy. And I really don’t give a shit what OS you use.
Really? From where I’m sat it sounds like you really, really hate the fact that anyone uses anything else at all. You probably think someone’s bonkers if they’re not using it drive a bus or pick their nose. Not that you’d use a nice, inoffensive, slightly (dare I say it,) “quaint” word like “bonkers”.
Edited 2006-10-24 23:09
Twenex why are you so jealous of Windows? If windows is not good, you shouldn’t need to come in every Vista news and post it?
I see you are scared of Linux even losing the tiny market share it has…aren’t you?
Twenex why are you so jealous of Windows?
Because it’s inexplicably successful despite being pathetically awful? Actually it’s neither; but it USED to be the latter, it hasn’t improved THAT much, and it’s only “inexplicably” successful if you fail to take into account how gullible people are and how inscrupulous Microsoft are. Unfortunately, the world being as it is, unbridled optimism is seen as more of a virtue than a healthy dose of cynicism, success more of a virtue than ethics.
If windows is not good, you shouldn’t need to come in every Vista news and post it?
Every Vista news, are you sure? I suppose I should have refrained from answering this post, then, but I also assumed you wanted an answer.
I see you are scared of Linux even losing the tiny market share it has…aren’t you?
I think you’re sleep-posting. What time is it where you are?
Edited 2006-10-25 03:04
The new mod system implemented a while ago was the reason i moved to other news source and only check osnews once in a while.
New mod system suppresses the voice of ones who disagree with larger group
See even a simple post like this gets modden down here because OSS people don’t like criticism even if it is constructive:
http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=16164&comment_id=171586
So much for the tolerance of OSS fanboys like twenex… Long Live Windows…at least Microsoft listens to customers…
Edited 2006-10-25 11:19
CuriosityKills says: at least Microsoft listens to customers…
When was the last time MS actually listened?
They use the “guilty until proven innocent” approach to anti-piracy…What we all know as WGA. Has it done anything? Nope. People still cab bypass it.
They tricked users into upgrading WGA components via Windows Update. (And yet, WGA has NOTHING to do with Windows security in any way, shape, or form)…This is because the original WGA implementation called home all too often!
They’re adding new or reworded clauses to their EULA.
They’re introducing new “anti-piracy” measures which will cripple the OS if users don’t comply with registration.
They still bundle Windows with systems. I didn’t ask for it, did you? (And what about those stickers? “Designed for Windows”…I didn’t ask for this!)
Their Windows installations still insist on wiping out the Master Boot Record and replacing it with its own boot loader. Completely disregarding the existing.
They sign nice ($$$) deals with Content Providers to enforce the distribution of media…ie: DRM solution in their Media Player. Did anyone ask for DRM to be a mandatory part of media functioning in Windows? What about the EULA clause about agreeing to letting MS disable some functionality of your system at the request of the Content Providers?
What about ActiveX? They still insist on this despite the security issues it brings. But instead of throwing it away, they slap security features to the affected applications! This isn’t solving a problem. This is delaying it because they still want to push it through!
Did any customer ask for all this?
Yeah sure, they listen. NOT.
The truth is, the right Vista is NO Vista. Don’t even bother, unless you really have no choice in the matter. Of course, if you’re a cracker/hacker, you definitely should! Who else is gonna prove the words “Microsoft” and “security” is an oxymoron?
If you want to make Microsoft listen to your demands, vote with your feet. Go with anything else. Whether its OSX or Linux or whatever, I don’t care.
But if you don’t, you shouldn’t complain when MS tightens its “noose of inconvenience”.
The new mod system implemented a while ago was the reason i moved to other news source and only check osnews once in a while.
New mod system suppresses the voice of ones who disagree with larger group
No, it suppresses trolls, for which reason you can expect to be modded down, VERY SOON.
So much for the tolerance of OSS fanboys like twenex…
I am not an OSS fanboy. There are, however, plenty of Windows fanboys.
at least Microsoft listens to customers…
Should I indulge in laughing at that comment for half an hour or is laughing for that long potentially fatal?
Actually, what a perfect example of a Windows fanboy: The modus operandi is to proclaim (or imply) that ALL Linux and/or Mac people do this, that NO Windows person does the reverse, and that consequently ALL Windows people are saner/more intelligent/more discerning than ALL Linux or Mac people.
No, I’m not saying that there aren’t some bad apples in the Windows crowd, but let’s be honest here …
There are 2 different MS-related articles on the front page of OSNews right now (this one and the Windows Dender one) .. look at the very first comment on both of these articles. Now, find me a non Windows-related article on this site posted recently where a Windows user comes out swinging on the very first post.
Most Windows users on this site (and I can’t presently think of an example to the contrary, though that doesn’t mean they don’t exist) seem to post pro-Windows articles and responses to alternative OS users with content having the intellectual sophistication of “you use Linux; you smell; therefore all Linux users smell; therefore people should use Windows”.
Just curious … how many Windows users on this site have written articles for OSNews? I myself have written one:
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=9654
And in the article, I say:
Just so you don’t think I’m totally biased, I will say that Windows is horribly insecure out of the box. If this bothers you, I would recommend checking out some Windows alternatives, including the snazzy new Mac Mini’s.
What’s an ABM’er?
ABM = Anything But Microsoft
Really? From where I’m sat it sounds like you really, really hate the fact that anyone uses anything else at all. You probably think someone’s bonkers if they’re not using it drive a bus or pick their nose. Not that you’d use a nice, inoffensive, slightly (dare I say it,) “quaint” word like “bonkers”.
I already told you … I don’t give a good goddamn what you use. Just like I don’t care what religion people choose to practice. My only beef is with people who can’t seem to keep their choice of operating systems/religion to themselves. You want to use Linux? Fine. In fact, if you live local to me, I’ll even burn a distro ISO for you if you bring me a blank DVD. If you want to use something other than Windows, then fine. I don’t care. Just use it and STFU already. My question to you is … why is it that almost every time a Windows/MS-related article appears here, fans of other platforms feel the need to post random and often times off-topic posts proclaiming the superiority of what they use. Do they think that kind of shit impresses Windows users like me? Not only are these people highly annoying, but they’re also lousy evangilists.
Sorry for the rant. I’m just tired of the constant bashing of Windows and its users. And that’s not just because I use the OS myself .. I would be tired of it even if I didn’t use it. It’s old, tired, and it’s been done to death. Maybe the ABM’ers can think of something new to say for a change.
No, I’m not saying that there aren’t some bad apples in the Windows crowd, but let’s be honest here …
There are 2 different MS-related articles on the front page of OSNews right now (this one and the Windows Dender one) .. look at the very first comment on both of these articles. Now, find me a non Windows-related article on this site posted recently where a Windows user comes out swinging on the very first post.
Maybe Linux users are faster readers! (I’m joking).
Just curious … how many Windows users on this site have written articles for OSNews? I myself have written one:
When I said “Articles or responses” I ought to have said “responses to articles on Linux, or to other people’s (Linux-related or otherwise) comments, in which the responder disses Linux”
already told you … I don’t give a good goddamn what you use. Just like I don’t care what religion people choose to practice. My only beef is with people who can’t seem to keep their choice of operating systems/religion to themselves. You want to use Linux? Fine. In fact, if you live local to me, I’ll even burn a distro ISO for you if you bring me a blank DVD.
Linux users become evangelists because it’s the only way of “spreading the news”. And being told by some user or some company or some program to “just use Windows” over and over again, when we think it sucks, is just annoying.
Sorry for the rant. I’m just tired of the constant bashing of Windows and its users. And that’s not just because I use the OS myself .. I would be tired of it even if I didn’t use it. It’s old, tired, and it’s been done to death.
Yeah, well, we’re tired of the Linux bashing, too. (Not that I’m accusing you of participating). But even if you’re a tired Windows user, you do have an advantage that we lack – several, actually. Hardware and software support, and social acceptibility.
Linux users become evangelists because it’s the only way of “spreading the news”. And being told by some user or some company or some program to “just use Windows” over and over again, when we think it sucks, is just annoying.
Well, of course not all Linux users are evangelists, but for those who are, there is a difference between good evangelism and bad evangelism. An example of bad evangelism would be to post a pro-Linux message to a Windows-related article that is completely off-topic and has absolutely nothing to do with the article itself, mmmkay? Don’t you understand that by doing this, you end up doing Linux more harm than good?
Wanna know what good evangelism is? Just remember that most Windows users don’t mix computers and politics. So the whole ‘Bill Gates is a seal-clubbing bastard’ argument just doesn’t go very far. Talking about security is a good thing, but it only goes so far. People need to know, not only that they’ll be able to do the same things in Linux that they do in Windows currently, but they also need be be shown. For example, I’ve never seen a video on YouTube by someone demonstrating using devices like iPods, PDAs, digital cameras, etc with Linux. I’m assuming that all this stuff is pretyt much plug and play by now (I haven’t used Linux in awhile). And if it isn’t, well .. perhaps the Linux community should spend a little more time getitng their shit together and little less time evangelism
But if it really is ready, why not demonstrate that, instead of accusing all Windows users of being ‘MS sheeple’, and hope that people will ‘convert’ by you flaming them?
Well, of course not all Linux users are evangelists, but for those who are, there is a difference between good evangelism and bad evangelism. An example of bad evangelism would be to post a pro-Linux message to a Windows-related article that is completely off-topic and has absolutely nothing to do with the article itself, mmmkay? Don’t you understand that by doing this, you end up doing Linux more harm than good?
Yes. Now please address your comments to someone who does it.
Wanna know what good evangelism is? Just remember that most Windows users don’t mix computers and politics.
Wrong. Favouring the status quo, or just plain apathy, is still political.
So the whole ‘Bill Gates is a seal-clubbing bastard’ argument just doesn’t go very far.
And I’ve used that “argument” when?
Talking about security is a good thing, but it only goes so far. People need to know, not only that they’ll be able to do the same things in Linux that they do in Windows currently, but they also need be be shown. For example, I’ve never seen a video on YouTube by someone demonstrating using devices like iPods, PDAs, digital cameras, etc with Linux. I’m assuming that all this stuff is pretyt much plug and play by now (I haven’t used Linux in awhile). And if it isn’t, well .. perhaps the Linux community should spend a little more time getitng their shit together and little less time evangelism
I think they’ve got their shit together just fine. Some of us code, others evangelize, still others do both. It depends where your talents lie, mm’kay?
But if it really is ready, why not demonstrate that, instead of accusing all Windows users of being ‘MS sheeple’, and hope that people will ‘convert’ by you flaming them?
Again, I don’t accuse Windows users of being “MS sheeple” (stupid word), or flame them.
Please go and find the person(s) this post should be addressed to, because it’s not me.
For example, I’ve never seen a video on YouTube by someone demonstrating using devices like iPods, PDAs, digital cameras, etc with Linux.
Video results for ‘ipod linux’ Results 1-20 of 91
That is because you didn’t bother to look. Oh yeah, i forgot, you’re just trolling.
And I wish the mods would start banning certain individuals from posting to any Microsoft-related article on this site, because rarely (if ever) do they have anything constructive to add to the thread, other than the ‘Bill gates is a seal-clubbing bastard! speak.
I call Occam’s razor. This site has a higher proportion than most walks of life of non-Windows users because it’s called… ready?… OSNews. News about operating systems for people who were, in fact, aware that “operating system” could be plural (and I don’t mean DOS, 2k, 98, XP, etc.) Such people obviously care about operating systems (there’s that plural again), and thus probably don’t appreciate that one of them — whether they approve of it on its own merits or not — is a monopolistic threat to the existence of all others, even community open source (due to proprietary driver issues.)
And despite this, you still see Windows monoculturalists here, and they’re not the least bit shy with the modding system, especially if you tell them they should learn Linux or try a Mac. Might this type of knee jerking be why you “rarely (if ever)” see anything “constructive” in anti-MS and/or pro-alternative posts? I know it was frustrating for me back when I didn’t know what I was doing in Linux, and I’ll admit I was just as indoctrinated as anyone else against “Macintrash,” but to err is human, and to grow even moreso.
I just don’t know if I buy the Linux comment at the end for your average home user. The the key is still drivers and software for the kinds of things a home user might do. Yea you can chat (kinda) do email and browse the web but there are still too many instances where a plugin won’t work or some other annoyance will crop up. Also, I just don’t agree that Linux has the same level of picture management and video editing software that you can find on OSX or even Windows.
With video editing, I’d agree with you, although MainActor 5 is a pretty good and comprehensive video editor. Also kino is quirky, but adequate.
In terms of picture management, digikam is pretty damn good. There’s also f-spot which I’ve heard good things about.
Nothing wrong with Picasa
Kino is a joke. MainActor is usable for basic editing, but for professional work it’s years behind any current pro-NLE such a Sony Vegas or FCP.
Do you know who’s codecs Sony uses in the Sony Vegas movie studio software? Mainconcepts. Who makes MainActor? Mainconcept. Ironic don’t you think?
For picture management, I think Digikam is THE premiere photo manager on any platform, and Picasa now runs on Linux. But I agree with the above comment that video editing and web browser plugins are always a hassle on Linux, compared with Windows.
well if you really were up to installing and supporting windows, you would have known that the average windows user has quite some annoyances. Note that windows doesn’t even come close when it comes to the supplied software a general linux distribution has. We’re not talking about the additional cost people have (unless they steal things).
Under windows, there are too any instances where something doesn’t work, until you do a lot of extensive driver loading. Something linux doesn’t have nor need.
I described the horrid story about installing an USB/serial converter under linux compared to windows. Talking about annoyances…. linux: plug-in and you’re ready.
Windows, plug in, install software, reboot, install more software, reboot, replug device before it works. No not annoying at all….
Don’t forget either that an OEM version of windows won’t work on all kind of hardware. You will have more luck with linux on the first modern laptop you pick up at the local store.
Yes, you can use the supplied software by the manufacturer of your hardware but then, realise that they have done quite some extensive work before they had a orking windows set after all.
Vista is getting more stupid the longer the wait! I stick with OS X and XP on my hp.
I think the only right version is Vista Ultimate. All the other versions are crippled in some shape or form.
I think Vista will be the best thing to happen to Linux because it will force improvement in needed areas or else face losing credibility and percieved superiority against Windows.
Thanks Microsoft. 🙂
Edited 2006-10-24 22:41
I think the only right version is Vista Ultimate. All the other versions are crippled in some shape or form.
Depends on whether you require those features – crippled to one person is slim and targeted product to another.
I think the bigger issue; when are we going to see what the ‘ultimate extras’ are which Microsoft said they would provide with their Microsoft Ultimate? what are the services? I hope they’re actually something decent; from launch to end of product life access to OneCare would be a great deal; access to Urge Music for free, free web drive and extra email space; these would be some good deals, and I certainly would upgrade to Vista Ultimate (along with Office 2007 Ultimate) if it were on offer.
I think Vista the will be the best thing for Linux because it will force it to improve in the needed areas or face losing credibility and its percieved superiority.
Please. The only people who think “Linux” has any credibility, let alone superiority, are the kind of fanatical anti-Microsoft sheep who couldn’t care less about real security, functionality, or features.
windows and security doesn’t work together just look at what os all those spaming zombie pcs got
Please. The only people who think “Linux” has any credibility, let alone superiority, are the kind of fanatical anti-Microsoft sheep who couldn’t care less about real security, functionality, or features.
Please don’t post drunk on OSNews.
How is he drunk by his comment? the simple fact is, after SP2 was released, there hasn’t been massive outbreaks of security problems, given that there are hundreds of millions of people using it everyday without experiencing problems which is testament to what Microsoft has actually achieved.
Stop lying to the public, Linux has driver issues; the day you can download a driver off a manufacturers website without needing to match up the kernel version/revision and distribution version to the download, thats when Linux has made progress.
The day when I can go down the road and purchase a copy of Creative Suite 2, Microsoft Office, and numerous other titles for Linux, then it has made progress – and NO I will NOT lobby software companies to provide support for Linux, YOU fanboys get it on Linux, YOU get Linux working with my hardware, I am NOT going to spend MY free time trying to get something working that should work out of the box.
Edited 2006-10-25 06:41
How is he drunk by his comment? the simple fact is, after SP2 was released, there hasn’t been massive outbreaks of security problems, given that there are hundreds of millions of people using it everyday without experiencing problems which is testament to what Microsoft has actually achieved.
Actually, plenty people had problems installing it, never mind actually using it. And the number of vulnerabilities in Windows hasn’t exactly dwindled to zero.
Stop lying to the public, Linux has driver issues;
Linux users don’t lie to the public; MS does nothing but, and has for the ten years I’ve been following them.
the day you can download a driver off a manufacturers website without needing to match up the kernel version/revision and distribution version to the download, thats when Linux has bad progress.
“Bad” progress? What’s that?
If hardware manufacturers would release their specs or FOSS drivers, you wouldn’t even need to download them, much less match up kernel versions.
The day when I can go down the road and purchase a copy of Creative Suite 2, Microsoft Office, and numerous other titles for Linux, then it has made progress
Stop talking drivel. Linux is making progress all the time. The fact that it doesn’t have your sacred cow software program doesn’t mean it’s crap anymore than the fact that Windows doesn’t have grep means it’s crap.
– and NO I will NOT lobby software companies to provide support for Linux, YOU fanboys get it on Linux, YOU get Linux working with my hardware, I am NOT going to spend MY free time trying to get something working that should work out of the box.
“Whaaaa! I’m too lazy to ask people to support my hardware! I want you to do it for me!”
What in the world makes you think that attitude is going to get you anywhere? To most Linux people reading this you’ve already been written off as an arrogant self-important bossy whiner we’re better off without.
And with those replies, you’ve simultaneously proven every possible negative stereotype about Linux users:
1) Computers work for users, not the other way around; the idea of computers is to streamline our lives so that it free’s up time for more important things.
2) I use applications, I don’t use my operating system, my operating system is merely the front door to my computer and allows me access to applications to allow me to be productive.
And with those replies, you’ve simultaneously proven every possible negative stereotype about Linux users:
As you’ve proved (almost) every possible negative stereotype about supercilious Windows users. Just because you’re in the majority doesn’t mean you’re right or superior. You might like to answer why I should put any effort into supporting your devices if you aren’t going to yourself, or why the fact that device manufacturers don’t release specs or open-source drivers for their devices means that Linux is crap. Linux developers aren’t stupid, intransigent or lazy – they will support any device whose internal workings they can get their hands on, with the result that Linux now includes out-of-the-box support for more device drivers than any other OS, Windows included.
1) Computers work for users, not the other way around; the idea of computers is to streamline our lives so that it free’s up time for more important things.
I’ve never suggested otherwise; in fact the reason I use Linux is that it doesn’t take up time treating me like a cretin. It lets me get on with it.
2) I use applications, I don’t use my operating system, my operating system is merely the front door to my computer and allows me access to applications to allow me to be productive.
You keep repeating this mantra often enough that you must be trying to convince yourself of it. Applications are no use if the operating system gets in the way, which (for example) Windows 98 did with it’s constant rebooting, and XP does with its constant need to be virus-checked.
Please don’t post drunk on OSNews.
Hey… I take offense to that…
I should mod you up for being funny. Fortunately I don’t have any votes at the mo.
Did it for ya
That was sarcasm, but thanks anyway 😉
256Mb RAM + 3 applications?! OK, I’m a bit lost here, are they kidding? And MS plans to charge for that?
And Ultimate, which is the actual promised Vista (with several exceptions from early promises, but nobody is perfect, right) costs 400$?! Wow. I’m to much used to free OSses, I’ve totally lost track of pricing. Isn’t OSX in 100-150$ range?
OSX which releases a release yearly costs about $150 and Vista which was released 5 years after XP costs $400.
Let’s look at the features first, OSX is simply an upgrade and improvement to an existing OS. (Cmon they’re touting improved apps as a feature..), Vista on the other hand is a rewrite of a lot of underlying Windows components and a completely rethinking of security into the OS.
There are other things but those imho are the most prominent withought going into eyecandyish things.
Dude, Microsoft’s newfound “We Heart Security” mantra pretty much makes them equal to what OS X has been doing for about 5 years now.
I give MS a little credit for being smart enough to stop hiding their heads in the sand, when it comes to the “our way or the highway” on OS development, but seriously with everything that Vista is, OS X has been and has done not only better but more consistently.
And please don’t say you like Vista’s “eyecandy”. That would be extremely embarassing to yourself.
Dude, Microsoft’s newfound “We Heart Security” mantra pretty much makes them equal to what OS X has been doing for about 5 years now.
Apple’s approach to security usually involves marketing, denial, and deflection of responsibility.
….so I guess the fact that OS X is really a gussied up Unix obviously makes no nevermind to you. So, yeah, I guess Unix is really insecure, my mistake….damn you Apple marketing.
….so I guess the fact that OS X is really a gussied up Unix obviously makes no nevermind to you. So, yeah, I guess Unix is really insecure, my mistake….damn you Apple marketing.
The exploits sure say it is, and Apple has gained quite a bit of them since they started using not only the same code but also the same architecture as the rest of the Unix-alikes.
Dude, Microsoft’s newfound “We Heart Security” mantra pretty much makes them equal to what OS X has been doing for about 5 years now.
Not only that, dude, but haven’t they been saying “We Heart Security” for about five years now? So maybe they are setting themselves up as prophets. “We don’t Heart Security yet, but we will – Real Soon NowTM”
HA! Sorry, I guess I forgot the age old tagline (ie. bold faced lie) “Best, Most Secure Version of Windows Ever.”
Hey, if MS says it, it must be so, right?
Erm, yeah. Sure. 😉
I agree with most of your points, but you have to remember, OS X inherited most of it’s security philosophy and practices from Nextstep and BSD, apple just reaped the rewards. I am not saying it is a bad thing that they did that, it’s just the way things are.
I’ll take your word on the NeXTStep thing, since I really have no opinion on it one way or another. All I know about it is Apple took parts of it and incorporated it into OS X. But, yeah, whatever secure environment existed in BSD, Apple inherited and probably didn’t do much to change.
Hey, if it works, right?
The version for me will have to be Vista SP2. I’ll wait for the majority of the bugs and security holes to be patched.
That said, I still haven’t ran into anything in Vista that I can’t do in XP. *nix like security aside. They should have called it XP-ME, because that’s exactly what it is….no real reason to upgrade.
In my opinion, XP is pretty much for Win2000 like ME is for Win98.
So calling Vista XP-ME sounds like putting two crap systems into a blender and then glue it together as one system. which is probably not that far from reality anyways..
Win2000 is by far the best OS microsoft has done, it’s been downhill since that.
Infact, I’d go so far and say that Win2000 is the _only_ OS ms has done that I think was actually good enough.
and yet, here I am running crapware xp.
i’m not gonna go vista tho, noooooo way.
That said, I still haven’t ran into anything in Vista that I can’t do in XP. *nix like security aside. They should have called it XP-ME, because that’s exactly what it is….no real reason to upgrade.
Perhaps they didn’t want to call it “XP-ME” because invoking the name of *that* product to publicize a $100-$400-retail followup to XP would do more to cement, amongst the *general* population, their reputation as a bunch of swindling cock-up merchants than anything since DOS 4 or that a Sacred Alliance of Apple and all the Linux/BSD vendors could come up with, in marketing or technology, in a million years?
Or maybe I’m just cynical.
The only Vistas that can compete with modern Linux on features bases are the most expensive ones, and that is when we compare them with Linuxes that are already out in the market right now. Ultimate may be a good choice now, but can it keep up with the competition in the long run?
Consider that it will take one or two years after the Vista release until Vista will have any significant market share in the business market. (Gartner is even more pessimistic and predicts 10% after two years). By then, Vista will have to compete with a completely new generation of free desktops. I.e. KDE4 will be out and people will be running Gnome 2.24 instead of 2.16, with each new version more polished than the other. Add to that things like Vista volume activation, that for sure will annoy many business users.
Currently usability is cool in the open source community. The free desktop usability seam to evolve faster than ever before.
Then there is MacOS-X. That too, already offers a better Vista than Vista, and just like the free desktops it seam to evolve faster than OSes from Redmond.
My guess is that the people that buy into Vista now will be really disappointed in a year or two when they compare their systems to the offerings of Apple and various Linuxes of that time.
Microsoft could of course release service packs with new features to meet the competition, but that would divide the market into even more versions of windows and that would make it harder for developers to make good software that works flawlessly on all versions and in the end creating trouble for the users.
This will be interesting to watch.
The only Vistas that can compete with modern Linux on features bases are the most expensive ones, and that is when we compare them with Linuxes that are already out in the market right now. Ultimate may be a good choice now, but can it keep up with the competition in the long run?
Nice long post there, but I think the short answer to that extract above is, “No”. And (to expand), that’s not a Microsoft problem, it’s a closed-source problem. If you trace the evolution of Windows from about 85 to Windows95, it took them (obviously) ten years to get there – there was about the same amount of improvement between Red Hat 5 and Mandrake 6.5, or about two years. And Linux keeps on improving at similar rates now to what it did then. At some point there’s going to be this Linux product that’s vastly superior (and I mean, vastly, as in “marked improvement in all areas over the competition”) to Windows, which will be a completely different situation to what we’ve had before, i.e. better OSes on better hardware platforms with crappy application suites and crap or crappier hardware support. When Linux reaches that point, however, it will be a better OS on overwhelmingly similar hardware with all the right tools to create or migrate as good or better application support. No wonder Microsoft love DRM – they are probably hoping that they can PS/2-ize* the Windows PC. I’m betting (and I hope) that they’re wrong, and given the “Microsoft or bust” mentality of that company, in their position I’d be spending long periods in the lav.
*EDIT: Wrong analogy: I should have said they are probably hoping they can “Mac-ize” the Windows PC – make a successful, closed platform out of it. At this stage in the game they’re probably only likely to either PS/2-ize it – make an unsuccessful closed platform out of it – or at best create 3 hardware platforms where before there were only two (in the same marketing space). My theory is that third strategy’ll be the worst thing that could happen to them – people will go where the vendor-independent hardware is, which will now bring the added benefit of vendor-independent software.
Edited 2006-10-25 01:06
Gartner has made several predictions that conflict with each other — almost none can be substantiated. They’ve predicted further delays even though MS is getting ready to ship. They predict slow uptake, yet also predict the pending release of Vista and the upgrade coupon program will cause sales of XP systems to slow because of people choosing Vista. They predict a 2-year wait for SP 1 and problems with compatibility for security products on x64 until then even though most of the vendors have working products for x64 currently, and Vista R2 is planned for release about 2 years after Vista RTM.
People that buy into Vista at launch will be getting a pretty steady stream of updates for existing components and new components that weren’t worth further delaying the RTM. In 2 years, they can upgrade to R2.
RE: APIs — the ability to create “good software” is already in Vista. The new APIs it brings are untapped for the most part. Some require new hardware (D3D 10). Most just require the developer to learn/use the API (WinFX). Additions to these APIs won’t divide the market as many are architected to be drop-in additions to what’s already available.
Gartner has made several predictions that conflict with each other — almost none can be substantiated.
As most of us know, Gartner (presumably, along with whoever, bizarrely, STILL employ Laura “SCO have an iron-clad case” Didio – Yankee Group?) are the analyst equivalent of a rookie GI in Iraq whose only “weapons training” was with the toy plastic ray-gun he got from Daddy on Xmas Day at the age of six, and irreparably broke on Boxing Day.
They’ve predicted further delays even though MS is getting ready to ship. They predict slow uptake, yet also predict the pending release of Vista and the upgrade coupon program will cause sales of XP systems to slow because of people choosing Vista. They predict a 2-year wait for SP 1 and problems with compatibility for security products on x64 until then even though most of the vendors have working products for x64 currently, and Vista R2 is planned for release about 2 years after Vista RTM.
This is called “hedging your bets” – otherwise, and perhaps less charitably (though probably more accurately) known as “making so many conflicting predictions that people who use any of them to support the theory that they don’t know jack will be forced to quote all of them, on pain of Gartner being able to print a denial saying, ‘no, we actually said this.'”
I want the version of Vista that dosen’t phone home, has no activation or ‘genuine advantage’ crap with it.
I want to install it on my home machine and when (its always when NOT if with windows) something goes wrong, I want to be able to re-install the thing without phoning uncle bill and/or getting a dialog box about ‘reduced functionality’ because I haven’t activated yet.
Guess you want Linux, then. I’d say OS X, but I read that even Apple has it phone home occasionally for some reason or another.
I’m about half way to linux land, meaning half the machines in my house run linux. Ubuntu cause hey its linux for humans and this ex-hardcore windows freak finds it pretty easy to deal with and so far its run like a peach on all my hardware.
I just hope it keeps growing and breaks down this crazy structure we have in place now where everyone it seem is stuck eating from the MS meat wagon.
OK… Maybe this isnt on topic… I have been watching flame wars between windows and linux and mac for years now.
If they are always the topics of the flame wars you would think the great geek think would click in and say “hey, im a windows/linux/mac nut and i’ve been saying the same crap for years and nothing has changed. people still use windows/linux/mac maybe i should shut up and just talk about the tech advancements instead of making myself look stupid.”
But nooooooo…. you all have to go back and forth for NO REASON.
Anyway, im done.
I’ll use the version of Vista and Linux that work provides me.
But nooooooo…. you all have to go back and forth for NO REASON.
I go “back and forth” for one reason and one reason only: to counter FUD. It isn’t my fault that certain people (I shan’t name names) are walking, talking, ****ing FUDmachines.
I understand your frustration, beleive me I do, but responding just adds to the rhetoric. Eventually the issue becomes so clouded that its not worth countering anyway.
I have to admit I used to feed the animals, But i decided recently that actions speak loader than words. So if the solution works, no matter what it is, I demonstrate to the people that need to know and let them form their own conclusions. For me personally I take the path of least resistance.
Like I said I wasnt really on topic but its nice to see people weed through the junk
I understand your frustration, beleive me I do, but responding just adds to the rhetoric. Eventually the issue becomes so clouded that its not worth countering anyway.
I have to admit I used to feed the animals, But i decided recently that actions speak loader than words. So if the solution works, no matter what it is, I demonstrate to the people that need to know and let them form their own conclusions.
That’s a fair point.
Like I said I wasnt really on topic but its nice to see people weed through the junk
Heh!
“Oh, but before I go, let me add that the Linux and Mac desktops, are every bit as good now, if not better, than Vista will be tomorrow.”
In five years Linux, Mac and BSD who knows maybe even “Open Solaris” will be miles ahead of anything that Microsoft can produce. Microsoft has almost a twenty year head start on Linux, they have 50,000 people on there payroll, 50 billion in the bank, a proven monopoly, they have used every shady business trick in the book….. and guess what?
Linux and Mac desktops, are every bit as good now, if not better, than Vista.
If you own any Microsoft stock you may want to cash it in while its still worth the paper its written on .
To be fair to Microsoft, if you count from the beginning of the Windows development cycle that takes you to about ’82, so they only had a head start of 8 years. Confine discussion to NT and they had hardly a headstart at all, if any. They’ve still made laughably slow progress by comparison, however – unless you consider the hindrance of a closed-source business model as a huge mitigating factor.
To be fair to Linux,
Microsoft the company was founded in Albuquerque, New Mexico on April 4, 1975 by Bill Gates and Paul Allen to develop and sell BASIC interpreters for the Altair 8800.
By 1990 Microsoft exceeds $1 billion in sales and becomes the first company to do so.
1991 Linux is introduced by Linus Torvalds.
So they had a sixteen year head start on Linux, they were raking in over a billion a year in sales when Linux was first introduced. Had nice contracts with every OEM in existence and kept the doors locked on ALL of there code. and even with this jump start Linux is as good if not better than Vista…
And all of these nutters want to say that Microsoft innovates?, there the best at what they do? Looks to me like a major failure has taken place.
Well, remember that the MITS machine and early PC’s couldn’t even run Linux in text mode, and that Windows only really got off the ground with version 3; but in general, yeah, you’re preaching to the converted.
What I’m trying to get across is they had 16 years of built up knowledge of engineering operating systems. They had the money to buy the most talented of programmers, they had there shady contracts and in the end it will get them absolutely no where…. well maybe a footnote in the anneals of computer history.
What I’m trying to get across is they had 16 years of built up knowledge of engineering operating systems. They had the money to buy the most talented of programmers, they had there shady contracts and in the end it will get them absolutely no where…. well maybe a footnote in the anneals of computer history.
Well that’s closed-source for ya. I don’t know any other industry besides the military that keeps such tightly-guarded secrets; I can’t think of any industry other than the military where it makes sense; and I don’t think any company has such a tight grip on such a large sector of the military industry, or any other. The computer industry certainly is a good place to start exploring the insanities of human nature!
In five years Linux, Mac and BSD who knows maybe even “Open Solaris” will be miles ahead of anything that Microsoft can produce.
I’ve heard that before… I think it was about 5 years ago (excluding Open Solaris that didn’t exist then).
The only viable competitor to Windows is Mac OS X. It may be that Linux will gain marketshare in the next few years, but I doubt it will be on any large scale.
BSD is not meant to be a desktop OS, but if you want BSD-based, you have OS X already, and if you want BSD-based that you can (officially) run on other than Mac’s, there is Desktop-BSD and PC-BSD, though they don’t look like they are ready to compete yet for some years.
In five years Linux, Mac and BSD who knows maybe even “Open Solaris” will be miles ahead of anything that Microsoft can produce.
I’ve heard that before… I think it was about 5 years ago (excluding Open Solaris that didn’t exist then).
Yeah, I also heard how Windows 95 was going to make computing “faster, better, and more fun”. Bill Gates must LOVE rebooting.
The only viable competitor to Windows is Mac OS X.
Matter of opinion passed off as fact number 16,072…
It may be that Linux will gain marketshare in the next few years, but I doubt it will be on any large scale.
It won’t IMMEDIATELY gain market share, but in the long run it is here to stay. Barring open-sourcing Windows, which is bound to have massive legal complications (and yes, I know about ReactOS), Windows isn’t.
BSD is not meant to be a desktop OS,
Windows server versions differ from desktop versions by a few registry keys…
but if you want BSD-based, you have OS X already,
calling MacOS X a “BSD” is like calling a plane with Rolls-Royce engines a “luxury car”. Try driving a 747 down the Interstate and see how fast you get pulled up.
dream on…
So they had a sixteen year head start on Linux, they were raking in over a billion a year in sales when Linux was first introduced. Had nice contracts with every OEM in existence and kept the doors locked on ALL of there code. and even with this jump start Linux is as good if not better than Vista.
a) Linux is just a kernel. A kludgey kernel, granted, but one with acceptable performance.
b) GNU is much older than Linux. It’s also nothing but a shoddy knock-off of real UNIX (which of course is much older than Microsoft).
c) Only someone who’s been injesting vast quantities of FOSS laced Kool-Aid could possibly believe that any GNU/Linux distro is “as good [as] if not better than” Windows NT 4.0, let alone Vista, for desktop use.
So they had a sixteen year head start on Linux, they were raking in over a billion a year in sales when Linux was first introduced. Had nice contracts with every OEM in existence and kept the doors locked on ALL of there code. and even with this jump start Linux is as good if not better than Vista.
a) Linux is just a kernel. A kludgey kernel, granted, but one with acceptable performance.
So let me see, I can take a kludgey Linux kernel or an execrable Windows userland… Hmm, hard choice.
b) GNU is much older than Linux. It’s also nothing but a shoddy knock-off of real UNIX (which of course is much older than Microsoft).
c) Only someone who’s been injesting vast quantities of FOSS laced Kool-Aid could possibly believe that any GNU/Linux distro is “as good [as] if not better than” Windows NT 4.0, let alone Vista, for desktop use.
Well, let’s face it; it can’t be any more dangerous than MS kool-aid, can it?
Since you’ve evidently never actually used GNU (and failed to take into account that the wheel is also much older than Microsoft, and yet, oddly, still vastly more popular), why are you bothering to make a fool of yourself by posting?
I think its all a matter of the audience. Any Pro-MS article or any MS article posted on sites like Slashdot and OSNews tend to be littered with tons of Anti-MS sentiments and hate-mongering. And you really can’t say thats not true because all you need to do is simply look all the comments on this topic and others like it. For example Vista articles tend to be loaded with comments from users posting the same exact FUD (Its Windows XP SP3; Its the next ME; It has no features; It costs $400; It won’t sell at all; Its the end of MS etc)
Likewise the same article posted on a non anti-MS website does not generate the same amount of hate mongering or god forbid someone actually says its a good OS.
I used to visit LinuxQuestions.org a lot especially since I used to run linux exclusively on my laptop but the total amount of time wasted away at totally unproductive anti-ms psots was astounding. Ask a question along the lines of like “WIndows XP won’t load in grub” and you can expect at least three replies to be something like “You don’t need XP” or “Its a blessing…really it is”
Other times you see like 10 topics a week on “How can I trick my grandmother into using linux” and watch it expldoe into a 300 post topic about whose most computer-illiterate in the family can use Linux without any issues or how to get the family PC to boot Ubuntu without losing your MS Windows files but not telling anyone Windows is still there.
I think in that respect WorknMan has a point in that the linux community tends to show itself more of a religious fanatic style community than a OS user base (Ironically the same community tends to scoff at things like religious wars and not grasp how people can still be religious in this day and age and perpetuate such hateful ideals) and instead of focusing on insulting anyone who does not agree with their specific viewpoints he suggests that they take a more productive route.
In fact the linux community is certainly showing signs of moving away from such fanaticism now days articles like “10 ways Windows Sucks” or “10 ways Linux is better then anything else” or whatever topic has been done 10 bajillion times now seems to get the same scoff treatment from the community complaining about why was there a need for the same topic to be rewritten about and how useless it is.
Unfortunately it seems like some people seem to feel the need instead of discussing OS topics in a creative and productive manner they seem to resort to kindergarten style “Mine is better then yours and you are a stupid head” arguement especially the Window articles which is a shame IMO because a lot fo good comments tend to be flooded out by those more immature comments.
I think its all a matter of the audience. Any Pro-MS article or any MS article posted on sites like Slashdot and OSNews tend to be littered with tons of Anti-MS sentiments and hate-mongering.
Hate-mongering? Come now.
And you really can’t say thats not true because all you need to do is simply look all the comments on this topic and others like it.
Don’t forget to look at all the anti-MS sentiments and hate-mongering too, which you’ll find are almost exclusively spades more vicious, personal, and content-free than any of the fact-based MS-bashing that goes on. MS-Bashing may be a dirty job, but thank God there’s a minority that’s got the cojones to do it.
For example Vista articles tend to be loaded with comments from users posting the same exact FUD (Its Windows XP SP3; Its the next ME; It has no features; It costs $400; It won’t sell at all; Its the end of MS etc)
Likewise the same article posted on a non anti-MS website does not generate the same amount of hate mongering or god forbid someone actually says its a good OS.
I’ll say “Microsoft made a good OS” when I see it. XP is a “good OS”. There, I said it. It does not compensate for MS’s business practices, however, and therefore, for that one reason among many, it is not “good enough”.
I used to visit LinuxQuestions.org a lot especially since I used to run linux exclusively on my laptop but the total amount of time wasted away at totally unproductive anti-ms psots was astounding. Ask a question along the lines of like “WIndows XP won’t load in grub” and you can expect at least three replies to be something like “You don’t need XP” or “Its a blessing…really it is”
Yeah, humour should be criminalized.
Other times you see like 10 topics a week on “How can I trick my grandmother into using linux” and watch it expldoe into a 300 post topic about whose most computer-illiterate in the family can use Linux without any issues or how to get the family PC to boot Ubuntu without losing your MS Windows files but not telling anyone Windows is still there.
Could that possibly be because of the fanatical “Windows is the only good OS”/”What is this Linux shit” mentality? just possibly?
I think in that respect WorknMan has a point in that the linux community tends to show itself more of a religious fanatic style community than a OS user base
Linux users are NOT “religious fanatics”. Health-food proponents say “your body is a temple” and are careful about what they eat; I say “my computer is a temple” and I’m careful about what I, erm, compute.
(Ironically the same community tends to scoff at things like religious wars and not grasp how people can still be religious in this day and age and perpetuate such hateful ideals) and instead of focusing on insulting anyone who does not agree with their specific viewpoints he suggests that they take a more productive route.
No, he started by denigrating Linux users to a man and pretending that Windows users are all more level-headed. It was only later, when bullshit was called, that he changed his tune.
Unfortunately it seems like some people seem to feel the need instead of discussing OS topics in a creative and productive manner they seem to resort to kindergarten style “Mine is better then yours and you are a stupid head” arguement especially the Window articles which is a shame IMO because a lot fo good comments tend to be flooded out by those more immature comments.
Now that’s more like it; no “Windows users this; Linux users that” rubbish: Some people, on all sides, are incapable of forming coherent arguments. No surprise there then.
Don’t forget to look at all the anti-MS sentiments and hate-mongering too
I’m sorry, that should of course be “anti-Linux sentiments”.
The Linux/OSS writer for eWeek is the one writing an article about which Vista is right?
Kindof showed in that entirely inappropriately tacked on paragraph at the end.
Sortof like an “Oh by the way, Linux Ra Ra Ra!” cheer.
No doubt I’ll be modded down for pointing out the obvious incongruity here but there you have it.
Its not just Steven who feels this way, its anyone with a IQ higher than 70 . Here is a perfect example :
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,127601-c,linux/article.html
And this article as you can see is from pcworld magazine, I hate to be the one to break the news to you guys but Linux is going to take over the desktop in the next couple years.
snip from the above link:
“Let me start with a controversial statement: Installing new software is almost always easier on Linux than on Windows or the Mac OS.
I can already envision the angry e-mail. It’ll come from the folks who write each month, certain that if they use enough capital letters and exclamation points, they’ll convince me that LINUX SUCKS!!!
But I’ll say it again: Installing new software is, in most cases, easier under Linux than under other operating systems. I’ve touched on the simple reason why many times in this column.”
Read the column for his conclusions……
“I hate to be the one to break the news to you guys but Linux is going to take over the desktop in the next couple years.”
Your speculation aside, what relevance does that have to my comment?
He wasn’t ‘best fit’ to do that article, even as an op-ed piece it was a bit peculiar and that paragraph at the end was as irrelevant to the article as your comment that I quote above was.
As my own aside to the article and this thread but caused by it, why is it that OSNews is filled with so many that can only see in shades of black and white?
Its not just Steven who feels this way, its anyone with a IQ higher than 70 . Here is a perfect example :
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,127601-c,linux/article.html
And this article as you can see is from pcworld magazine, I hate to be the one to break the news to you guys but Linux is going to take over the desktop in the next couple years.
Wow, very simplistic case. How if the user receive error messages when compile the program, for example:
/usr/X11R6/include/gtk-2.0/gtk/gtkvruler.h:45: error: syntax error before “G_BEGIN_DECLS”
/usr/X11R6/include/gtk-2.0/gtk/gtkvruler.h:56: error: syntax error before “typedef”
In file included from /usr/X11R6/include/gtk-2.0/gtk/gtk.h:186,
from mplayer/gtk/eq.h:5,
from interface.c:13:
/usr/X11R6/include/gtk-2.0/gtk/gtkvscale.h:35: error: syntax error before “G_BEGIN_DECLS”
/usr/X11R6/include/gtk-2.0/gtk/gtkvscale.h:46: error: syntax error before “typedef”
In file included from /usr/X11R6/include/gtk-2.0/gtk/gtk.h:188,
from mplayer/gtk/eq.h:5,
from interface.c:13:
/usr/X11R6/include/gtk-2.0/gtk/gtkvseparator.h:35: error: syntax error before “G_BEGIN_DECLS”
/usr/X11R6/include/gtk-2.0/gtk/gtkvseparator.h:46: error: syntax error before “typedef”
In file included from interface.c:13:
mplayer/gtk/eq.h:7: error: syntax error before “extern”
interface.c: In function `gconvert_uri_to_filename’:
interface.c:191: warning: passing arg 2 of `libiconv’ from incompatible pointer type
gmake[1]: *** [interface.o] Error 1
gmake[1]: Leaving directory `/usr/ports/multimedia/mplayer/work/MPlayer-1.0pre8/Gui’
gmake: *** [Gui/libgui.a] ??? 2
*** Error code 2
snip from the above link:
“Let me start with a controversial statement: Installing new software is almost always easier on Linux than on Windows or the Mac OS.
I can already envision the angry e-mail. It’ll come from the folks who write each month, certain that if they use enough capital letters and exclamation points, they’ll convince me that LINUX SUCKS!!!
But I’ll say it again: Installing new software is, in most cases, easier under Linux than under other operating systems. I’ve touched on the simple reason why many times in this column.”
Read the column for his conclusions……
He must be kidding. Installing application in Mac OS X is just dragging the application into Application folder. To uninstall, just delete it from Application folder. Is there any install mechanism that simpler than this?
Linux doesn’t sucks; it sucks more
He must be kidding. Installing application in Mac OS X is just dragging the application into Application folder. To uninstall, just delete it from Application folder. Is there any install mechanism that simpler than this?
Yes, it’s simple; but it’s also unsophisticated (in the sense that it makes no use of shared libs) and wasteful of space. Linux application installation has its problems, but not those problems. The simplest approach is to choose the distro that has the applications you need. (Yes, you have to choose, but then on the upside, you have to choose). Installing software that isn’t in your distro’s repository (even if it’s a new version of one that is, rather than one for which no version exists in the repository whatsoever) is best regarded as installing Alpha/Beta software even if it isn’t officially an Alpha/Beta. Individual users must decide whether they want to run alpha/beta quality software. Many won’t, even on Windows. Which is fair enough.
He must be kidding. Installing application in Mac OS X is just dragging the application into Application folder. To uninstall, just delete it from Application folder. Is there any install mechanism that simpler than this?
Yes, it’s simple; but it’s also unsophisticated (in the sense that it makes no use of shared libs) and wasteful of space. Linux application installation has its problems, but not those problems. The simplest approach is to choose the distro that has the applications you need. (Yes, you have to choose, but then on the upside, you have to choose). Installing software that isn’t in your distro’s repository (even if it’s a new version of one that is, rather than one for which no version exists in the repository whatsoever) is best regarded as installing Alpha/Beta software even if it isn’t officially an Alpha/Beta. Individual users must decide whether they want to run alpha/beta quality software. Many won’t, even on Windows. Which is fair enough.
For multi users computer, space reason may apply. But now space is cheap, 100GB hd is common, and for desktop users, the computer will be used only by 1 person. Still, if the computer have other users (guest, family, etc), the applications have option to install for all users. And for shared library, many applications are designed with separate library, but at the end only that application itself that use the library. I think PC-BSD with its PBI goes to the right direction.
Edited 2006-10-25 06:30
For multi users computer, space reason may apply. But now space is cheap, 100GB hd is common, and for desktop users, the computer will be used only by 1 person.
There’s no reason to waste space even if you have lots to spare.
I’ll prefer simplicity over space. If you strict on space, you should recompile all of your applications with -Os option, trim down the kernel only for specific hardware on your computer, etc. Compared to multimedia (movie, mp3), the space used by applications is nothing.
I’ll prefer simplicity over space. If you strict on space, you should recompile all of your applications with -Os option, trim down the kernel only for specific hardware on your computer, etc. Compared to multimedia (movie, mp3), the space used by applications is nothing.
Installing applications that are in the repositories is as simple as dragging an application to a folder; different, but just as simple. If an application isn’t written for a repository it can be difficult, but no amount of click-and-drag is going to get a Windows-only program working on the Mac, either. And “conserving space” is hardly exactly the same as “stripping down to the bare minimum”. Yet another daft suggestion.
I think rather than crippling their OS’s they should Cripple the software that go’s on it that you download from the internet or buy from the retail. To me it makes no difference what OS they’re all that same when producing and activation on software. It doesn’t matter anyway because anyone can remaster the Windows Vista or OSX DVD’s like you can to linux ISO’s so you don’t lose anything when opening up software in the OS.
Edited 2006-10-25 03:31
Why is it that no Windows article can be posted to osnews without a Mac or Linux fanboy turning the thread into a flamewar within the first 4 posts? This article had nothing to do with the lame OS-wars nonsense, but some (i.e. Linux and Mac fanboys) just can’t help but turn any Windows article into yet another opportunity to continue their idiotic war.
Note: Above I refer to Linux and Mac “fanboys” as opposed to Linux and Mac users or even advocates. “Fanboys” are those that enter any Windows thread frothing at the mouth to proclaim how much Windows sucks and how much Mac and Linux rule, regardless of whether the article is an OS-comparison article or not.
Why is it that no Windows article can be posted to osnews without a Mac or Linux fanboy turning the thread into a flamewar within the first 4 posts? This article had nothing to do with the lame OS-wars nonsense, but some (i.e. Linux and Mac fanboys) just can’t help but turn any Windows article into yet another opportunity to continue their idiotic war.
Note: Above I refer to Linux and Mac “fanboys” as opposed to Linux and Mac users or even advocates. “Fanboys” are those that enter any Windows thread frothing at the mouth to proclaim how much Windows sucks and how much Mac and Linux rule, regardless of whether the article is an OS-comparison article or not.
OK, now complain about the Windows and closed-source fanboys – those that enter ANY thread (Windows-related or not) to proclaim how much Linux sucks, how Linux users are thieves, and how much Windows rules, regardless of whether the Laura “SCO has an iron-clad case” Didio-written article from which they’ve quoted “Linux’s marketshare” is so stale the mould on the yellowed pages it’s printed on has grown mould itself. Some (i.e. Windows and closed-source fanboys) just can’t help but turn any article into yet another opportunity to continue Operation BarbaFOSSa.
“What version will actually work for you come that day?”
SuSe 10.3
;-]
Back to topic at hand!!!!!
I will use either home premium or ultimate….the one that comes with backup imaging software.
I have used in build RC2 5744 and it makes very quick work of making a image of your harddrive, so that you can restore harddrive to time at which image was made.
I tryed it out and it was way! faster then using similar products (ie norton ghost) took me about 10 min to make image on dvd (was from clean install with only avg added…note: avg has to be installed in xp comp mode) and only about 15 min to restore image from dvd.
Steps involved in restoring image…
boot from vista dvd
click recovery
place dvd with image on it in drive
click restore from image
click format and restore
——————————————————
As a beta tester, for fun i tryed installing vista basic…it’s install size was close to that of ultimate, so it’s really only a crippled version with no benefit of a reduced install size.Microsoft says it will only sell this version to third world countries (perhaps they will get dvd’s without all versions on them?…)But i can’t understand why any third world country would adopt such a crippled version,when they could use XP or even windows 98,if there staying in the windows world.
——————————————————
As a beta tester, for fun i tryed installing vista basic…it’s install size was close to that of ultimate, so it’s really only a crippled version with no benefit of a reduced install size.
If what you tried was indeed Vista Basic, this is not the version for developing nations, Windows Starter Edition is.
But i can’t understand why any third world country would adopt such a crippled version,when they could use XP or even windows 98,if there staying in the windows world.
Such a nation probably couldn’t afford XP (except XP Starter Edition) or take advantage of everything it offers. Starter Edition is distributed through OEMs and ships with low-cost PCs usually purchased by governments in regions where few people have ever used PCs. The PCs may be distributed to individuals or to community centers where usage is shared.
Over 1 million people use XP Starter Edition. Vista Starter Edition is more flexible/has an increased featureset over XP Starter Edition and will be supported longer. It is also localized for and available in a greater number of regions than XP Starter Edition, and it includes special help and instructional materials not included with other versions of Windows.
Starter Edition is in no way meant as an option for people such as many of the posters on this site.
This one.
[root@odin ~]# cat /etc/redhat-release
Fedora Core release 6 (Zod)
nope this one 🙂
tom@prostar ~ $ cat /etc/gentoo-release
Gentoo Base System version 1.6.14
In other words:
tom@prostar ~ $ uname -a
Linux prostar 2.6.17-gentoo-r4 #2 SMP PREEMPT Wed Aug 16 13:52:54 EDT 2006 i686 Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.80GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux
tom@prostar ~ $
This is 2006.1 in Windows user’s language …….
Edited 2006-10-25 04:48
The OSS Fundies are riding the waahhhhgon!
Don’t be so bitter. Vista will be out very soon. You’ll be able to get your own copy.
Don’t be so bitter. Vista will be out very soon. You’ll be able to get your own copy.
If only you knew how laughable the idea that we want to run that 14.5GB-too-many bucket of bolts is.
If only you knew how laughable reading comments by OSS fundies trolling Vista stories knowing deep down they want their own copy really bad.
I know you’re trying to convince yourself that Vista won’t be Terminated, but I suggest not wasting your efforts on someone who doesn’t drink Microsoft Kool-Aid.
Of course, you don’t drink MS kool-aid. You drink the OSS holy kool-aid… ~_^
OK, I’ve been visiting OSNews for several years now and finally registered. Reading through these posts, I just have to wonder… I have (IMHO) an average joe pc (AMD 64, ATI X700, NForce 4 MB). I currently run XP on my system because I enjoy playing games. I have tried many distributions of Linux (usually test them in VMware first) before attempting to install them on my PC. I have found only 1 distro that will work out of box (Xandros 3) on my hardware. As for installing software, I wish linux had an InstallShield type application for installing software AND drivers. I do not find APT, RPM, etc. to be sufficient or newbie friendly. I’m not trying to bash Linux, these are just some of my personal pitfalls on my system. I also don’t consider myself a complete linux newb since I can install Debian to a fully functional desktop in VMware.
I have also evaluated Vista RC1 on my system (Actually registered with MS) and I have to say that I personally do not like the direction MS is going with their OS. To me, Vista is just too bloated, requires too much hardware just to work, too much $$$, and for what? DX10 and some changes to the underlying code. I feel MS would have been better served with writing the OS from scratch with no backwards compatability built into the new code and have backwards compatability for software provided by a version of Virtual PC.
So for now, I’ll stay with XP, and continue to try and run Linux on my hardware.
I am currently running OS X and XP (in parallels) on an iMac. I also have XP on 2 other machines here, a laptop and desktop that also dual boots into Vista RC1. I have one other box with SUSE 10.1 on it…
OS X and XP are used for work, and I installed RC1 and SUSE 10.1 just to see what these are like.
I think OS’s are a bit like computer languages. I can give a C programmer C++ and they will code like a C programmer unless they take the time to learn how to think like a C++ programmer. Someone who has been writing VB 6 for years will struggle with Java or .Net for a while.
If you use XP and have never used OS X for instance, you will struggle with it for a while until you begin to think the way the OS does. Once you realise for instance that the reason Mail.app doesn’t have a calender is because that is what iCal is there for then you start to see the integration.
To be honest, I struggle with Linux. It’s not that easy for someone used to using XP or OS X I guess (maybe it’s just me). I tried (albeit not that long) to install Netbeans on it and failed.
The thing is, Linux is a great OS, I just need to spend more time with it and learn it. It isn’t going to behave like XP or OS X in a lot of cases, and that is probably a good thing once I understand why.
There are things XP does that I prefer the OS X way, and visa versa.
I guess what I am saying here is to use the OS (or OS’s) that do what you need them to do, don’t spread FUD about other OS’s until you know what you are talking about. 10 minutes (or even 10 hours) using OS X in a store doesn’t make you an expert. Installing a Linux distro on a PC doesn’t make you an expert with Linux either… Unless you are prepared to “learn” how another OS works, it won’t matter how much time you spend using it.
I know for a fact, a lot of “us” out there (not all) a determined that only the OS of choice is any good, all others are lame.
I totally agree with you thavith_osn. It’s not “Which OS is better than the others” I think it’s “Which one is better for me“.
I find myself way more comfortable when using Linux, I don’t really like Windows (but I think Win 2000 is a great OS though) and never had the opportunity to lay my hands on a Mac (they’re expensive here, but they look cool and powerful indeed).
I guess I’m the only Linux user who hates evanglism. Use whatever you want and let alone the other people, they’re smart enough to choose their favourite OS.
Edit: Want to install apps the Mac way on Linux? Use klik (http://klik.atekon.de/).
Edited 2006-10-25 13:24
I guess I’m the only Linux user who hates evanglism.
Depending on how you define “evangelism”, you may find I’ve joined you. I see nothing wrong with saying, “Try this! It’s great. IMO it’s better than that other stuff”. If that’s a definition of evangelism then e. is a GOOD thing. If your definition of evangelism is “your a compleet fscking m0r0n if yo don’t use ___” [sic], then e. is DEFINITELY a BAD thing. But I see more of that from Windows fanboys than even Linux /fanboys/.
OMG – paid Vista hype and now at OSNews …
“Vista Ultimate Failure” :p
(I suppose some people may now regret there is no ‘-1: not funny’ rating).
they went NUTS with all the licencing options. this is gonna turn people off to windows like nothing before. Seriously they should have released **ONE** version. not several versions at different prices. just one low priced version, that’s not crippled in anyway.
heck, they probably did it so people would do more upgrading of vista versions, after they released they bought the wrong version.
And another thing. people are gonna be wanting to return more WHOLE computers. once they realise they bought a computer without aero. or once they realise they cant do something on the os.
Windows is the only os that comes purposefully crippled.
you will see more people wanting to buy computers without os’s. or with more options.
mabey they will start giving linux as an option
“you will see more people wanting to buy computers without os’s. or with more options.
mabey they will start giving linux as an option”
I noticed HP gives “Freedos” as an option. What’s up with that!?
I noticed HP gives “Freedos” as an option. What’s up with that!?
They do it so that Microsoft won’t call out the Panzers and trample them for preinstalling Linux. The idea is you buy a computer with FreeDOS on it and in the likely event that you don’t want FreeDOS, you install the Linux of your choice. Of course Microsoft insist that all those computers are used to put pirated Windows on. God forbid anyone actually use a competing product. Before Windows came along, the only way you could liberate yourself from a choice of products was to go to a Warsaw Pact country. Thank God for Microsoft!
I hate being told by my operating system what kind of services I will and won’t need depending on its “edition”.
Right now I am dual booting XP and Ubuntu Linux (using Ubuntu all the time). I am Italian, my girlfriend is Swedish. When she’s using my computer, she can just log in to my Ubuntu install and use it in Swedish. I keep my own account in Italian.
Sounds pretty simple, and it is. But according to Microsoft, to do the same with Vista I need the Enterprise edition, “designed to meet the requirements of large global organizations and those with highly complex IT infrastructures”. As you can imagine, I don’t fit in. The alternative would be buying Vista Ultimate (!) and I’m not even sure it would include that feature (Microsoft’s website is pretty vague about it).
No thanks. Ubuntu has its own defects, but (like almost every other Linux distribution) it already offers every single user ALL the features available for the system without claiming to be the first operating system that does it, unlike the description of Vista Ultimate on microsoft.com. And it’s much cheaper, too.
I don’t hate Windows or anything like that, I generally don’t like fanboys of any kind, and I can’t stand religious wars on software; I would even still recommend Windows (XP) to many users, but to me a serious company provides each of its customers with ALL of the best features available. It doesn’t decide that if you live in a poor country you should have poor support and if you are the richest guy you deserve a fully functional system, because you can pay extra. It doesn’t decide which direction its users should take. I’ve been using personal computers for a very long time now, and in my opinion an operating system must always try to offer its users the best usability, control, and freedom in exploiting their machine (which, in my opinion, also means including a programming language in the software that comes by *default* with the OS).
Microsoft itself used to provide its operating systems and software with no restrictions to all of its customers. Even limited and clumsy, they were fully functional for everyone. And here we are choosing our way to use our PC, from a set of possibilities decided by someone else.
And we even seem to be used to it, like it would be normal. It looks pretty sad to me.
How is he drunk by his comment?
At least he’s not as drunk as you.
the simple fact is, after SP2 was released, there hasn’t been massive outbreaks of security problems
What you mean to say is that the outbreaks didn’t get worse. But they didn’t stop, either.
given that there are hundreds of millions of people using it everyday without experiencing problems which is testament to what Microsoft has actually achieved.
Insinuating that you know hundreds of millions of people and they told you that they have no problems. Is that you, God?
Stop lying to the public
You first.
Linux has driver issues
Back up your statement. Bet you can’t. Some companies have issues providing drivers for Linux, is what you meant to say. Many of them have trouble providing drivers that work reasonably on any OS.
the day you can download a driver off a manufacturers website without needing to match up the kernel version/revision and distribution version to the download, thats when Linux has made progress
Oh please. When I go to ATI for an update to my graphic drivers, I see at least five versions of Windows drivers. When I install XP from scratch, I need a CD and sometimes files downloaded off the ‘net (for XP, which I choose out of a list of operating systems). Are you blind, stupid or trolling? Maybe you like crack cocaine…
Edited 2006-10-25 12:49
I find drivers tend to be the most over-used argument in this tired debate.
Its all depends on your POV if by driver issues you mean driver availability from the manufacturer I think Windows wins. Most manufcaturers have drivers for Windows only.
If you mean out of box compatiability I think Linux wins because the kernel has more drivers out of the box that work then windows. For example on my nForce 4 board I need to have the drivers ready first before I install windows because my network adapter is not supported out of the box (In Vista it is though) In linux it just works. In fact I only need my nVidia graphic drivers for Linux ever and thats only cause I want 3D acceleration otherwise the kernel has a driver for that too.
Also for linux I would like to point out I never had too much of an issue with different versions of drivers the only choice I ever needed to make was 32bit or 64bit unless you mean districution choices (Like what kind of package you want but .tar.gz2 format work in any version from my experience) while it has been admitted that Windows needs a version of rhte driver for its various editions. There is not unified window driver. But then its not a big deal most people know what they want.
I love Windows because I love my games and it does what I need it to do. But I also love my linux install because there is a lot of neat geek stuff I can do with it. Also btw does anyone know how to get X360 to interface with MythTV?
Users demanded stability, Microsoft brought XP which is no less stable than Linux distribution like Ubuntu. 2003 servers are a marvel and are really rock solid.
People demanded Security and Microsoft applied its full force behind security including OS and application layer hardening. You didn’t get UAC and IE running under lower privilege automagically, engineers in Microsoft worked over it.
2003 has faced far less security issues and Vista is built on the same rock solid Kernel.
The graphical UI experience in Vista is awesome.
So yes Microsoft listens.
On the other hand, when someone demands a similar feature in Linux, he is told either why he is wrong or why his computer did not work and he should get a new computer OR he is asked to go ahead and implement it himself OR he is asked to thank everyone that he has a free OS and he has no right ot demand. NICE.
The price I pay for my OS is really small like 30-40$ because it came as pre-installed. The ease of use i get with it is awesome.
At least i don’t have to now worry anymore about what should i do if FreeSpire hang on the very first screen it boots to and Ubuntu dapper installation failing with corrupt package message even when you download the ISO again, match MD5 hash and burn on CD and match MD5 hash. And the solution which i as a software engineer thought was to install Ubuntu 5 and upgrade to dapper but i am sure a normal user would just give up.
Microsoft Windows has made the life easier and never game me any trouble for installation. It was like put the CD, select options and let it go. With Vista it even kicks more ass, you put CD, select 3-4 options and thats all, in 30 minutes you will be in the shiny new Vista experience;)
A secure, beautiful, stable OS at your door step instead of the kludge i.e. Linux with its confused mess of 1000 distributions.
Edited 2006-10-25 16:16
Users demanded stability, Microsoft brought XP which is no less stable than Linux distribution like Ubuntu.
Saying it doesn’t make it so. Granted, Ubuntu wouldn’t be my choice of stable desktops, but for the record, I have regularly had XP crap on me recently, and I hardly use it.
2003 servers are a marvel and are really rock solid.
Endless printer problems and weekly reboots, here. And it keeps timing out RDP sessions because it uses “temporary” licensees for non-Windows systems.
People demanded Security and Microsoft applied its full force behind security including OS and application layer hardening. You didn’t get UAC and IE running under lower privilege automagically, engineers in Microsoft worked over it.
The track record says otherwise. Microsoft keeps talking about Security and yet the endless fixes for deeply-flawed issues keep rolling. They have yet to drop ActiveX, which is by definition insecure. You do remember that MS released a huge number of patches for something like 25 problems, many of which were critical, a couple of weeks ago?
The graphical UI experience in Vista is awesome.
Oh, really? Subjective. Does Vista bring back all my apps on the same virtual screens that I left them on the last time I opened up a user session? KDE does, and has for years (perfected it around v3.3 IIRC) I think Vista has just entered this century, compared to the alternatives.
The price I pay for my OS is really small like 30-40$ because it came as pre-installed. The ease of use i get with it is awesome.
Oh, please.
On the other hand, when someone demands a similar feature in Linux, he is told either why he is wrong or why his computer did not work and he should get a new computer OR he is asked to go ahead and implement it himself OR he is asked to thank everyone that he has a free OS and he has no right ot demand. NICE.
Demands. And by the bye, do you happen to remember how long it took Microsoft to get Vista out the door? Are you one of the users that asked for DRM and WGA?
At least i don’t have to now worry anymore about what should i do if FreeSpire hang on the very first screen it boots to
Because, as you said, someone competent installed the OS that you do use.
Ubuntu dapper installation failing with corrupt package message even when you download the ISO again
You sure that’s Ubuntu’s fault? If it is, what does this have to do with Linux?
And the solution which i as a software engineer thought was to install Ubuntu 5 and upgrade to dapper but i am sure a normal user would just give up.
If you’re a professional software engineer, I’m a pig farmer with one eye and a peg leg. Even if you really think you are, I can’t imagine it reading your posts.
Microsoft Windows has made the life easier and never game me any trouble for installation.
English, do you speak it?
With Vista it even kicks more ass, you put CD, select 3-4 options and thats all, in 30 minutes you will be in the shiny new Vista experience;)
Careful, you might bust a nut.
A secure, beautiful, stable OS at your door step instead of the kludge i.e. Linux with its confused mess of 1000 distributions.
Enough of this drivel. I’d give you a clue, but if you had one, you’d just eat it. If you aren’t a troll, you play one in real life. Please consider another site for your posts, I hear Mordor has space available.
Shaman, i see somewhere in your post you feel bad. You say things like, It may be Ubuntu’s problem but not Linux’s. Yes very true. Or it is freeSpire’s problem and it has nothing to do with Linux. Nice:)
And why so much anger, are you really getting offended to that level or is it just something you got from your parents?
BTW I think you are really a pig farmer, that’s why you have more fun installing an OS or finding ways to install an OS (as in digging in dirt) instead of doing some real programming.
What is your speciality area? Let us talk about x86 or OS development or are you a
java/web programmer…:)
You say things like, It may be Ubuntu’s problem but not Linux’s. Yes very true. Or it is freeSpire’s problem and it has nothing to do with Linux. Nice:)
You do know that Linux is just the OS kernel, correct?
And why so much anger, are you really getting offended to that level or is it just something you got from your parents?
I guess I just don’t care for stupidity. Can you get that from your parents? I suppose.
BTW I think you are really a pig farmer, that’s why you have more fun installing an OS or finding ways to install an OS (as in digging in dirt) instead of doing some real programming.
It’s an interesting picture, at least.
What is your speciality area? Let us talk about x86 or OS development or are you a
java/web programmer…:)
VC, (W)ISP operator, systems consultant and network specialist. Thanks for asking.
Edited 2006-10-26 01:29
Do you really believe that if Ubuntu has problems it is all because of the distro and Linux kernel is perfect? What would a user do with just a bare kernel anyways on desktop? It is the distriubtions that matters and they are quite behind Windows. See this thread for problems that i faced with ubuntu
http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=16164&comment_id=171586
So i see you don’t do much programming, is that right?
Edited 2006-10-26 04:16
Do you really believe that if Ubuntu has problems it is all because of the distro and Linux kernel is perfect?
Yes, when it comes to checksum/hash on the ISO. Absolutely. Your lack of knowledge is glowing like a deep sea beacon, FYI.
What would a user do with just a bare kernel anyways on desktop?
Clueless, ain’t you?
It is the distriubtions that matters and they are quite behind Windows.
Depends on which distribution, I suppose. I can think of lots of examples that are just the opposite. Got anything other than your clumsy vignettes to offer?
So i see you don’t do much programming, is that right?
Not anymore.