It’s been known for a while that the new Apple G5 machines would come out before the next major release of OS X, Panther, would be ready. It’s confirmed today, though, that Apple will be releasing a new version of OS X with the G5, a version that has been “optimized to take advantage of the 64-bit technology in the Power Mac G5.” “The kernel has been updated to take advantage of memory expansion and the vector libraries and math libraries have been optimized,” said an Apple executive. “Any application that does dynamic linking to those libraries will get an automatic benefit without having to recompile.”
“Linux won’t run major software from M$, Adobe, or Macromedia.”
Uhm, yeah it will. Linux runs em all just fine with Vmware, Crossover or even Wine. I mean, seriously.
>>>”BTW, Apple didn’t kill the clones. The clones killed the clones. most didn’t want to pay a reasonable licensing fee for the OS. Those that did pay the fee, continued cloning… until they simply went out of business due to bad management.”<<<
“Oh My Gawd. You have your head buried in the sand or what?”
Not at all. Why in God’s name would you even ask. You phrased that question as if something in my comment was inherently wrong.
“You seem to be in the absolute minority of ONE that thinks that Apple did not kill the clones.”[/i]
Most Mac users are almost as ignorant to the specifics about the discontinuation of the cloning era. There are still some that believe that Apple “killed cloning” in the respect that Steve somehow made the contracts with these companies disappear.
“Yes Jobs did kill the clones. I don’t care how he went about it – it was a direct result of his decisions.”
They chose not to adopt the new license that would require them to pay a fair amount for an OS license.
“Whatever happened. Dosen’t matter. The market changed and prices are good now as a result.”
Cloning don’t help prices… it help configurability.
“I agree with this statement. Marketshare is nothing if you aren’t making money. I’m not arguing that apple isn’t making money. I’m saying that they limited themselves to a niche market and there is no changing that with the way they do business.”
the ONLY reason why market share is held high in the eyes of PC users is because more market share is the ONLY way to be profitable. Niche or not, Apple is one of only two profitable computer manufacturers on the market.
“Ever see a price war between Mot and IBM?
Yes. I can understand why you haven’t because you haven’t subjected yourself to the Mac news scene for the past 10 years like I have. The price wars ARE there, albeit not as visible as they are in the PC sector because the price wars are primarily presented to Apple
“Of course not”
Not true.
“Sure on more expensive hardware that is more limited. I can’t for the life of me come up with any reason to run Linux on the Mac.”
How about Speed?
<i.”The things I brought up do indicate platform advantages. That wasn’t the sole purpose of my post though. I’d like to build a mac but apple makes that impossible. That annoys me and its what made me leave them the first time.”[/i]
Yes, and yet it makes it no less an inferior platform… Because i could say the same about a PC. It annoys me that I can’t buy a system from a PC manufacturer that integrates hardware and software.
“I can also see no integration advantage on the mac myself.
I see several. (here’s a few) AltiVec/Final Cut Pro, iPod/iTunes, iSight/iChat
“A few of my friends still use macs. Seems to me I see the same types of problems. Printer drive issues, programs that go off in la la land. I don’t see this tight integration everyone keeps bringing up.”
Apple doesn;t make printers anymore, so the printer issue is a little more understandable… even if i don’t experience these types of problems myself. The “programs that go off in la la land” sounds like something you just made up.
>>>“Its akin to the competition that the Mac experiences between chips manufacturers. The PC doesn’t have anything over the Mac in this respect.<<<
“What competition ?”
Mot and IBM
“Mot makes crap and IBM is just gearing up.”
For a while, Mot had the better chip and IBM’s was the chip that was lacking.
“There isn’t any competition there.”
Sure there is.
“If there was it wouldn’t matter because apple controls the price on the end widget anyway.”
All of which is price competitive with PCs of equivalent spec… so its a non-issue.
“Its always the same shit I find
“Its MOTs fault for X or Y” –
“MS illegally did A or B” –
“Apple was ripped off from W and Z”
“The GX will unthrown Intel – JUST WAIT!””
if the shoe fits….
“Its like being a mac user is just one big blame game and crying fest over what could have been and what will probably never be.”
LOL. Could Have? Should Have?
More like, Been there, done that.
It amazes me how so many of you will jump on and flame someone because they say innocently. So to clear it up, I am an ADC developer. I can tell you categorically:
10.2.7 is being released FOR ALL MACHINES.
Now all of you grow the hell up, flaming people is pathetic, especially when you don’t know the facts and think that because you say it,”it MUST be right”. Either structure an argument why you believe something will or won’t happen or don’t post at all.
Matt
Referencing your statement that macs are slightly more, slightly less, or significantly less expensive, I STILL wonder what you mean. I have talked with you before on this forum, and have disagreed with you about this topic. Please note, I am not angered by this type of discourse, as no one should be on a web forum, immature kids aside. We have talked about Dells, and priced them against Macs. Please note that I am sort of a Mac “fanboy”; I am typing this on my iBook. I take issue with the fact that this statement seems very inchoate. I would VERY much appreciate clarification. If you mean exactly what you say verbatim, I would reword it to make it sound more well-though-out. Clarify. For example, (My opinion follows:) “I think that Macs in general hover around the same price line as equivalently equipped PCs. Their low end is a considerably more expensive than the PC low end, which can be explained by the value of higher-quality design, and hardware, and the addition of great value-added software. The middle level is also slightly more expensive, for many of the same reasons, however, the high end is a good deal because you get a higher-quality machine with lots of features standard which would require upgrades on other PCs, for an equivalent price. Caveat: The configuration options on the high end are not as flexible; thus, if you are fishing for the high end, you must go with the HIGH end.” I would appreciate more clarification of opinions in general on this forum, because misunderstandings are often the source of petty arguements. Folks, please try to be clear in what you mean.
HAW
Let me whip out my NT 4.0 Dec Alpha version or the Windows 2000 alpha version and I’ll show you somw 64 bit addressing.
The issue with Apple is the same with Gary Hart. When he challenged the press he forgot the buy ink by the gallon. Well when apple comes out an lies in the keynote don’t be suprised if people gun for them.
My LX164 Alpha was the second shipping 64bit desktop system. In fact ran Windows NT to play Quake, Quake II, and run Word on it. Then I installed Linux.
Apple claims it’s a 64 bit OS , yhea fin wrong. If the sizeof(void*) is not equal to 8 they lie.
I like Apple’s I encourage certain novice users to buy them, And some of their custom hardware (LCD’s and laptops) I recommend for more experienced users. but when you lie to me I’m going to rip you up.
Remember these are the same people that ate Intel for saying a P4 was an ugrade from a P3 (wasn’t at the same clock speed an P3 wins.) ate Nvidia for cheating at drivers, and will eat anyone that lies.
Donaldson
For a cheap solid laptop check the link below, also you can
see it at bestbuy. (which will soon carry apple coolie)
http://www.emachines.com/products/products.html?prod=eMachines_M531…
No such thing. NT4 was the last version that ran on Alpha, MIPS, or PPC. I’ve got an MSDN Subscription and can tell you for a fact it never existed. As far as NT on Alpha goes, it sucked. You had to either by a special version of Offcie, and VS or run it with a software addon which allowed you to run 32bit code on the Alpha 64bit processor.
I have a few copies of that laying around also.
In a logical argument you never start with “Such and such is so, now prove me wrong.” If you ever did this in a serious setting aside from board bashing you’d be laughed out of the building. When you say something it’s your responsibility to prove that you’re right, not everyone else’s to prove that you’re wrong.
As for how this relates, there are several clear cases of this already brought up. If you want to bash something, at least have the decency to provide your own reasons. Regardless of whether or not you’re right, if you can’t demonstrate that you are for yourself it doesn’t even matter.
just so you know….apple low end is level with the PC midrange since that is where most computers sell and also have the best profit nexus.
PC low end have almost zero profit and are used mearly to get people hooked then sold up. that is why the low end craPCs have no features other than a 6 month old CPU.
No such thing. NT4 was the last version that ran on Alpha, MIPS, or PPC. I’ve got an MSDN Subscription and can tell you for a fact it never existed. As far as NT on Alpha goes, it sucked. You had to either by a special version of Offcie, and VS or run it with a software addon which allowed you to run 32bit code on the Alpha 64bit processor.
There was an Alpha Version of Windows 2000 RC1
“But wasn’t the Alpha platform dropped before Windows 2000 was released? The simple answer: yes. But…
Yup, always a “but”. Development on the Alpha port of NT was active well after the bitter end (after all, Intel still doesn’t have a 64 bit processor on the market, way over a year after Alpha support was dropped — someone had to pick up Intel’s slack). That means that beta kits were out there, of course, in the hands of many beta testers. The last official beta release of Windows 2000 was RC1, build 2072. Some bits continued to be built after the plug was pulled — internally to MS, there were builds available substantially after that, and the last known internal build was 2128.
The differences between RC1 and the release version of Windows 2000 are inconsequential for the average user. So relatively good bits made it into somewhat limited distribution.”
http://www.alphant.com
Apple did not say that the OS was 64bit, the processor is 64bit based on the IBM Power4 processor that is used in thier mid-high end servers and work stations. Apple has openly stated that the first few iterations of the OS that runs on the G5 will not be 64bit so what’s your problem.
I would think that if you own an Alpha that you would be doing something more productive than playing games. That’s just a waste of a perfectly good processor. I’m sure some company needing parts for a aging system would pay you a few dollars for it, just to have a backup laying around.
Worse comes to worse you could use it for a boat anchor – after you learn what computers are really ment to be used for.
I stand corrected, please forgive. I’ll file this away for future use
Wow, PC users are afraid to comment on the lack of security in Windows yet a Mac article comes up and you instantly get over 100 comments easily and most of them from Windows trolls. What a joke…
I expect to see a 10.2.7 for all Macs. Apple has always maintained consistancy of MacOSX versions with no particular hardware running a “special” version of MacOSX like they did with MacOS9 and system enablers.
RE: Rob Potts
Strange I do use it for a lot of things includeing games. One of the main arguments is that the opteron and the G5 are either workstations or personal computers. Well personal computers play games and workstations make money. Well I used my alpha to port Call to power, railroad tycoon and some others. It also forms a compute node for my 6-DoF corporation.
And many years ago I play Quake II on it. At least it had game support.
RE: Troll Hunter
And you know I know way to much about em86 if you care
to ask questions.
RE: 64 and Macs.
Apple has said that applications will take advantage of the 64 bit ness. I’m call BS until I see it. I know how
big of a headache it was to get em86 and linux to play together. If apple uses a new sig for their binary files (aka 64bit elf) then double all the libraries (32 bit and 64 bit) then fix ld.so it should work well, but it will increases the foot print of the system. Apple could try to run the kernel in 64 bit mode and that would be a small disaster. They could also try pulling A sparc idea and use sliding windows (more chance of it working) I’m still betting they use the extra 4GBi of memory as a filesystem buffer. 64 bit dosen’t give you speed until you start throwing math around. For string manipulation and SMP tasks it hurts. (Also remember that there are 3 speeds of the cpu to hypertransport chip, 800 , 900 , 1000, With these 4 grades I personally guess the middle machine will be the fastest on single threaded applications.) O well It will be interesting once the first reviews fly in….. I wonder are any of the Apple machines still chirp / prep compatable…. We could run windows on them….)
Donaldson
“Wow, PC users are afraid to comment on the lack of security in Windows yet a Mac article comes up and you instantly get over 100 comments easily and most of them from Windows trolls. What a joke…”
I often wonder if Mac user elitism stems from PC trolls bashing all time.
As for the 64 bitness of OS X, Adobe is releasing updates tommorow, so thats when we can really see how things turn out.
> The question is how many people who live in the real world
> can actually afford a G5?
Haha … sounds like you’re poor. Sucks to be you.
“Fundamentally Jobs is a salesman, no more, no less.”
I beg to differ. Jobs is much more than a salesman. In fact, he’s not that good a salesman. If he is, explain Apple’s dismal market share.
Jobs is a visionary. Without him, there would be no NEXT, no OS X. I’m an engineer myself and I take my hat off to the brilliant engineers behind NeXTStep and OS X. But I’d say that without Jobs, this awesome operating system wouldn’t have been created.
“I disagree. I just looked up prices associated with “Media Access Control (MAC)” addresses, with my comparatively priced Mac, and found MAC addresses to be priced very fairly.”
Haha … let me guess … are you 15 years old?
And you know I know way to much about em86 if you care
to ask questions.
is there a PPC version of it, or is it just for Alpha Linux?
RE: trollhunter on PPC version
hmm interesting question.
There could be an Linux/PPC version easily enough. Since PPC
is 32 bit a lot of the translation crap goes away.
Is there a version that emulates ppc instead of ia32 no. I have been looking around but I don’t have the time to work in the
new cpu emulation package.
Is there an em86 for Windows/PPC. I don’t know. I know MS owns a key section of the library and there is a HAL patch needed. It should be possible to create it.
Is there an ia64(itanimum version) for ia32 code, umm yes, MS resused the FX32! code.
Could you load Darwin/IA32 and run Darwin/PPC, if you could
find a PPC cpu emulator yes, and then an intel box could
run OSX apps but not Mac V9 software. (The key to em86 is
the rethrowing of the system calls)
Donaldson
Why don’t we just install Linux. It’s free, it’s powerful server OS, it’s fearful desktop OS, it’s stable and secure, you have choice, you are not locked by hardware, you are not locked my software, you are not locked by upgrades, you are not locked by Billy Gates, you are not locked by Steve Jobs, you are free, it is very fast. All that for freedom and computer knowledge. Linux is a priceless experience.
/me watches as the post counts reach 200
If we all installed Linux this site would be useless. Lol. There are some professional apps that aren’t on Linux, with Windows emulation or not.
“Could you load Darwin/IA32 and run Darwin/PPC, if you could
find a PPC cpu emulator yes, and then an intel box could
run OSX apps but not Mac V9 software. (The key to em86 is
the rethrowing of the system calls)”
There’e more to running OS X apps than Darwin, that’s just the open source part.
“…it’s stable and secure…”
It seems that people have the mis-conception that running Linux makes them impervious to attack. This is a bad trend. MS is suffering due to their in-ability, in the past, to admit to short-comings in their products. Finally, they are getting the picture that security is important to their customers.
If/when Linux achieves critical mass, we will see more and more holes being poked in it. Don’t stick you head in the sand thinking that installing Linux is going to make your data safe.
— Precious
“In fact ran Windows NT to play Quake, Quake II, and run Word on it. Then I installed Linux.”
Dude! You are the KRadest!!!
Where can I get Quake for my DEC Station 5000/132?
Donaldson wrote:
“One of the main arguments is that the opteron and the G5 are either workstations or personal computers. Well personal computers play games and workstations make money.”
Actually, I used to beat Apple up about this all the time.
Workstations run UNIX. ( and carry a vast library of scientific applications that go with it ).
Donaldson wrote:
“And many years ago I play Quake II on it.”
DooD! You are kRad too!
PantherPPC darkened my pixels thusly
“Windows trolls…”
Im am an Amiga Troll, but I know Apple personally…
and a correction:
For the 7500, the cost of a G3 accelerator to run OS X 10.1.5 is $45. With a 604e, you can only run Mac OS X 10.0.3, and with the 7500s 601 processor,
Rhapsody DR1 Mac version will only run on PCI-PowerPC Macs, with the possible exception of the PowerBook 1400 (rumors abound that the PowerBook 5300 may also be supported)( ** note: the 1400 is did not run it, the 5300 didnt eather, but for a diffrent reason). This is very much subject to change, with the news of post-DR1 versions possibly running the Mach 3.0 microkernel
Your milage, may of course vary.
I just found this amusing. The video was made with a mac, so it’s probably sarcasm… or it it?
http://www.waveworks.net/mac.html
you assume that people consider workstations and the by official terminology “Workstation Class System” the same..
well?
there is more to OS-X than darwin.
Actually you’re wrong. Turns out ALL and i mean ALL
libraies, applications etc eventually resolv down to
two libraries. libc and libm. Think about all of the
libraries on the system that there eventual dstionation
of calls is these two libraries. If you JIT the app these
are the only two native libraries you need to talk to.
To Quake for Dec,
Which Quake do you want NT/Alpha or Linux/Alpha I uploaded
Linux/Alpha to the alhalinux site years ago. its an coff
binrary. If you can’t find it let me know and I’ll
check the backup tapes. (THe SDL version of quake also
compiles, and Loki civilization call to power should
also run. )
RE:Smeagol
If people wanted to be secure they would run VMS. OS-X
is fairly secure due to it’s unix core.
RE: Knows Apple People
FX32! under NT ran
Quake II, QUake I , Blade runner, and others (I forget
now). EM86 could run a lot of apps execpt one. Wine
I argued with some wine people about porting to the alpha
so that I could run alpha native offic under linux but
suffise it to say the blew me off.
Donaldson
Just know what practices and umm, “things” to avoid…
“Basically, my understanding is to stay current on OSX upgrades, you need to spend $100-$130 every year, versus $90-$100 every 3 years for the newest Windows release, or $0 every 6 months for the newest Linux release.
There’s no spin that can change that fact. I don’t care how many new “features” they add or how we’re entering a “whole new era” in OXS-ness. Basically, we’re now at the point where OSX is starting to deliver on the promise that it was supposed to have for the platform. And (some) people have already spent $400 or so on upgrades, and will need to drop another $130 to get Panther. Nice. ”
Dude, quit your f*ing whining. If you don’t want to pay for Panther, then don’t. No one will be holding a gun up your ass. And if you’d rather pay 90-100 every 3 years for a new copy of Windows XtraPoop, go ahead and do it!
Just like the 68000 was a 16/32 bit processor (32 bit registers among other things, and a 16 bit databus if i remeber correctly… thats why the Atari ST was called ST, Sixteen/Thirtytwo, the Atari TT had a full 32 bit 68040),
the PPC has always been a 32/64 bit hybrid. Yes, it’s addressing is 32 bit but it has 32 64 bit floating point registers and 32 64 bit integer registers.
The G4 added a 128bit part to the processor, making it a 32/64/128 bit processor. Not only the addressing makes the G5 a 64 bit processor.
So seen in this light (where the G4 already is capable of true 64 and 128 bit calculations), the G5 can actually be called a 64/128 bit processor. The silly focus on addressing in the threads on osnews about Apple are ignorant and shortsighted.
And no, intellians do not have to believe than a G5 is way faster than an intel processor. Republicans are allowed to believe they make America a better place too.
And as for emulation: windows emulators on linux just do that: emulating windows. On a mac it would comprise way more: you have to emulate a processor FIRST before you get to the windows part.
And there addressing gets in the way of speed, intel being big endian (the only one bar Dec Alpha) and PPC being little endian, making for the need to swap EVERY low and high word for every operation and address you come across.
That is why PC Emulators on a Mac have performace issues compared to native intel machines.
Emulating the instruction set is not the big performance eater.
Anyone who whines about Apples MacOS X not being fully 64bit does not understand commercial software/computing… It is fine for linux nerds to have to compile everything themselves, including their kernel. But for Apple it is way more important to have just one version of OS and software, not different distributions for G3’s, G4’s and G5’s.
And since true 64bit-ness does not have any advantage for customers (IT DOES NOT GET FASTER OR CHEAPER OR BETTER), Apple is doing a very good job making 32 bit apps run like they always have, and allowing 64 bit operations and addressing for who really need it in specialized apps.
“The only reason for 10.2.7 is to support G5. Unless you are getting a G5, there is no reason for it. You do not want to install 10.2.7 on a G3 or G4.”
Not true. There is also a version of 10.2.7 being worked on for G3 and G4 machines that will be available for download. It will have enhancements and the like. I would imagine this will be the last update for 10.2 since 10.3 is just around the corner.
“Sir!: Microsoft has NEVER given me a compelling reason to upgrade. This box runs WinME fine. Everything works.”
Everything DOES work on WinME. Like writing to memory outside of your address space!
Everything DOES work on WinME. Like writing to memory outside of your address space!
<sarcasm>
HAHAHA…sooo funny
</sarcasm>
Ever heard of Mac OS 9 or 8 or 7 or 6 or…
That works in THOSE OSes too!
But we’re still comparing grapefruits to apples.
It’s not even remotely fair to compare the 9x series of Windows to OS X, since OS X is technically better. Then again, it’s not really fair to compare the 9x series of Windows to pre-OS X Mac OS, since Win 9x is technically better.
*Note I said TECHNICALLY, meaning from a pure technology standpoint, as in architecture and capabilities.
NT for Alpha was a 32bit operating system running on an Alpha chip. To install NT you needed to update the firmware to allow it, also, I would take the idea of running Quake on a Alpha, under emulation with alot of salt.
$459 Windows XP Upgrade – Grace Brothers Australia
$230 MacOS X – Apple Centre Canberra
Lets say you owned Windows 2000, theb upgraded to Windows XP. With in that space of time, 22 months have passed. There is nothing stopping you from doing what most Mac users do, and that is to upgrade every other version. 10.1 -> 10.3, then 10.3 -> 10.5. When you also take into account the changes between the different versions, IMHO, one gets more than their moneys worth out of the price they pay.
Also, IIRC, you can’t upgrade from an upgrade either, AND you can’t upgrade from an OEM version of software, meaning, you need to either own or buy a FULL version of Windows to qualify for the upgrade.
I am sure you can work around that issue, however, I am sure than most PC fanboys do the legal thing and pay for their software or otherwise their whole PC is cheaper argument falls to pieces like a cheap US made car.
I am sure you can work around that issue, however, I am sure than most PC fanboys do the legal thing and pay for their software or otherwise their whole PC is cheaper argument falls to pieces like a cheap US made car.
Yeah, nothing like an australian made car, oh wait you don’t make cars do you?
Of course moronic statements like that don’t even phase me anymore in an Apple thread on OSNews.
Australians do make cars. They make Holden (GM, like Opel Germany, Vauxhal UK, Cadilac/Buick/whathaveyou USA) that especially in the bigger models differ from their German or US stable-mates, and Fords. Ford Australia also makes cars that (in the bigger model ranges) make cars that are quite different from US or European Fords.
I’m amazed at this thread! First off, I’m an Apple zealot, so keep that in mind. I believe that Apple makes good products and that they are hardly ever given a fair chance.
That being said, I also respect Windows. XP, like it or not, is a fine OS and suits the needs of many. Hey, if you like to tinker, enjoy getting inside your box to replace single components every month… A Mac is not the right tool for you. Yes, you can do that on a Mac, but it will end up costing you more and giving you less pleasure.
Point is… Your computer is a tool. If you like Windows, then use Windows. If you like Mac OS X, then use that. I personally feel that the Windows zealots should let their guard down for 1 month and try a Mac OS X system for fun (that’s how I went from a Windows zealot to a Mac zealot). I also believe that Mac zealots should let their guard down and try Windows XP for a month. You may go back to your original OS, but you will have a new found respect for the other platform. If you’re not willing to spend the time and/or money to do this, then you should relinquish the title ‘computer geek’ to someone who truly enjoys technology and does not care who makes it. Hey these tools are all fun and cool, I don’t care who makes it.
BTW Mac guys… Ever notice how Apple never did any benchmarks against the AMD Opteron? You know, the 64-bit chip that was out before the G5? That’s a pretty sexy chip, and if I was running Windows, I would probably use that full time. And Windows guys… Like it or not the G5 is on top now. I’m sure AMD will catch up soon as the Opteron is giving the G5 a run for its money, but for today it’s the G5. Tomorrow, who knows.
Kust my humble *opinion*.
-BJH
“It’s not even remotely fair to compare the 9x series of Windows to OS X, since OS X is technically better. Then again, it’s not really fair to compare the 9x series of Windows to pre-OS X Mac OS, since Win 9x is technically better.”
Both MacOS 9 and Win9x (including ME) are DEAD. Architecturally, neither was particularly “modern” by the mid 90s. It is pointless (except from a historical point of view) to compare these.
The only OSes that really matter in the Windows vs. Mac arguement are OSX and XP. Both of these OSes are modern and architecturally equivalent.
“The argument with Macs being too expensive is old and tired.”
I will issue my challenge yet again.
I bet that if you give me specs for a PowerMac G4, I can configure a PC system that will outperform the system you give me, and that will cost about 1/3 of the price.
The “Macs are overpriced” argument is NOT outdated. PC prices have hit rock bottom in recent months. But Apple has not followed. Their systems are still just as expensive as ever.
“I am sure you can work around that issue, however, I am sure than most PC fanboys do the legal thing and pay for their software or otherwise their whole PC is cheaper argument falls to pieces like a cheap US made car.”
Nope. Sorry. I can configure a PC that will outperform any Mac spec you give me. That PC will have a legal copy of Windows XP Professional, and it will be less than half the price of the Mac.
I hated windows 95, windows 98, and windows ME, however windows98SE was and is my favourite operating system. Since buying a dualie 2 years ago, I haven’t been able to run it, but from how I remember it, it was buggy and tempermental, crashing frequently. If you were familiar with the OS though, and hardware weirdness, you could tweak that system to be a lot faster then it should have been on the hardware you were running it on, and a lot more stable.
“I will issue my challenge yet again.
I bet that if you give me specs for a PowerMac G4, I can configure a PC system that will outperform the system you give me, and that will cost about 1/3 of the price.
The “Macs are overpriced” argument is NOT outdated. PC prices have hit rock bottom in recent months. But Apple has not followed. Their systems are still just as expensive as ever.”
As usual you think that Apple competes on price. Its really obvious that it doesn’t and a G4 these days costs $799 or $688 if you go with PowerMax. These are prices for new systems. The point wasn’t that Macs cost less the point was Macs are not expensive. Heck if you don’t have $688 you probably can’t afford a $688 computer anyway.
http://www.powermax.com/cgi-global/generate.cgi?i=PM_CN_EM
Besides DIY computers cannot compete with retail systems from Dell, Apple and HP regardless of how little they cost. They are not really in the same class and don’t cut it as systems in a business environment.
Businesses look for reliable hardware so buying a product from Dell is cheaper in the long run than getting a DIY system from mom and pop shops or from some kid in college. The real world is different. I am willing to bet that Apple can churn out more reliable systems than you can sy if you were to build 100 PCs versus 100 G4s or G5s. Apple will have you beat on churning out reliable systems using consistant hardware and software builds. I really don’t see your point because good DIY systems are the exception not the norm. Most I have seen suck.
A majority of DIY systems I’ve seen are cheap looking PC boxes with noisy power supplies with strange BIOS problems or other anomalies.
My ECS motherboard loses the time now and then even when the mobo battery was replaced. Don’t even pretend like PC hardware is infallible, its not. They still have problems despite 2K and XP being rock solid 98% of the time.
I’ve only know one person to use a coolermaster which is a case closest to the G5s and I know of no PC user that even owns anything like an Alienware or Falcon Northwest.
Now factor in the vulnerabilities of Windows, the viruses and security problems. Factor that in. For companies and individuals that are affected by this the costs are huge.
Macs are affordable thats all their is to it. Cheaper than PCs? Nah…but no one ever said that. The software bundle is very good but missing an office app.
Even after you build your PC your still running Windows so how is that better?
You can build and have your $400 PC. I don’t mind spending $300 more for a machine that has slick hardware, Unix at the core with a UI designed by a company that loved, hated and known for their UI expertise. I also get good apps to go along with it and I won’t be running Windows. Also no tweaking needed, it just works.
How much would it cost to build an AIO unit PC? I am not talking about a separate PC tower, external 17″ monitor and and external speakers.
Someone buying an eMac is probably factoring in the reduced clutter of that system and it does make a big deal. the eMac takes up the same space as a 17″ CRT. A big deal if you live in a dorm room.
So what kind of case would it be and where would you find it?
You did say you were going to build it so I imagine that the mobo will be ATX or micro-ATX. It needs to be able to support wireless and have an internal antenna. It also needs to be able to be upgraded memory-wise without opening up the case. I am familiar with these systems being that I have deployed several of them.
I am so chagrined to see these Apple/Microsoft/Linux threads that end up merely as hot air coming from all sides. What this says to me is that many of you who post are not really interested in the advancement of computing.
It doesn’t seem to matter from which side this comes from or is directed towards. There is something fundamentally wrong when a computer company, no matter which one it is, makes an advancement and it is met with such hostility. The advancement is soon forgotten and arguments ensue about Jobs or Gates hype and hot air, about how cheaply one can build there own computer, about benchmarks and everything else one can think of except the fact of the story.
If one loves computing, then what Apple is coming out with is very exciting. Other things other companies and the OSS movement are doing are very exciting. To disparage new advances to protect your own little corner of computing is ridiculous.
Why can’t many of you speak to how what Apple is doing will affect computing in the larger sense? The same goes for what Microsoft, Linux, Sun and other OSes. can contribute. Cannot you think of anything else to say besides bad mouthing, sarcasm and inflated baloney? If that is the case, perhaps you should consider not posting at all. That way, those of us who are excited about computing can learn a thing or two without having to wade through hundreds of inane and worthless posts.
On the Alpha it worked fine. I ran
Quake I, Quake II, and Blade runner under FX32!. You must
understand that FX32! was also a JIT. After the first pass
through the code the code was recompile into native alpha code.
The OS was still some 32 bit but FX32! sat at the bottom with the HAL and converted it to Alpha ( And the compiler only
produced 64 bit code.) It worked and it worked well. Please
remeber my Alpha shipped at 466 I overclocked it to 533 right
now I have it clocked at 666. I am working on a water cooler
to take it up to 733 ( It will post but is unstable).
And this is a .25 micron chip.
RE: coldrain
On the idea of a chip being 16/32 bit because of certain instructions. Youre stupid shut up and go home. The bitness
is determined by the adressing bin. This adressing controls the size of pointers which pushes everything else. Other wise the original VMS chips were 1024 bit chips. (In machine
language they had a polynomial multiply function. They were the most powerful pure CISC chips ever made.) And the little comment about republicans, I think all the former slaves in America were happy that the Republicans freed them from the Democrats.
Donaldson
“As usual you think that Apple competes on price. Its really obvious that it doesn’t and a G4 these days costs $799 or $688 if you go with PowerMax. These are prices for new systems.”
What Apple competes on is not the issue. The issue is the Apple zealots that continue to claim that equivalent performing PCs cost as much, or even more than Macs. That is simply bullshit. You and I both know it is. But unlike some of the Mac zealots, you admit that the Mac is more expensive for the same level of performance.
BTW, that $799 is with no monitor. Slap a 17 inch monitor onto it and you are up around $950.
Dell’s price for a PC that will outperform that $799 PowerMac? $499. And that includes a 17 inch monitor.
Whether I can afford it or not is not really the issue. The issue is that I don’t see the benefits. I’m getting a system that will not perform as well, and I am paying twice as much as I would pay for a PC. Sure there are some benefits to the Mac, as you pointed out. But are they worth paying an extra $450 for? I don’t think so.
“Get Linux…”
I did. I have 68k machines running linux, I have LinuxPPCQ4 running on a couple of G3 Pros. But I have about 25 8100s that are running Mac OS 8.1, and Backrounder ( Infini-Ds distrubuted rendering application ). I cannot get MkLinux to boot, and everyone seems to have abandoned that distrubution. I have some things still to work on to get it running.
Most arguments about getting a modern OS boil down to people who like to sit and look at their screen like sheep. I need stability and rendering applicaitons. WindowsME basically only needs to be rebooted when software updates some out. I think its been about a a week since I killed off Direct X 9.0b, and with the latest nVidia drivers, all is well. ( yea… linux firewall, so I dont get viruses/worms/RPC hole exploits )
The idea that one should just shell out $130~$150 every six months is great for individual users, like lemmings, but for Educational instutions/Non-profits and serious rendering farms, its simply ludicrus.
I get such a KICK about how people seem to like MacOS X, with its “Steve thinks its good” interface. The interface SUCKS. Just ask any UI people( and yes, I do get paid to design UIs ). Apple really took a back seat on this one, but most Apple people are much too unsophisticated to admit it.
Anymouse darkened the pixels on my monitor thusly:
“Dell’s price for a PC that will outperform that $799 PowerMac? $499. And that includes a 17 inch monitor.”
Try $399 and includes a 15″ Flat screen. I have 6 customers who bought this system, and got a OEM version of Windows XP Pro for $25. ( not from dell of course ).
“I get such a KICK about how people seem to like MacOS X, with its “Steve thinks its good” interface. The interface SUCKS. Just ask any UI people( and yes, I do get paid to design UIs ).”
Well, to be fair, the Windows XP UI sucks too. Fortunately though, Microsoft chose to give customers the option of using the older UI. The new Windows XP UI looks like they hired a clown to design. It looks like something I would expect to find on “Baby’s First Computer” or something.
You can either not read, or you are just a flamer, either which is fine of course… in the case of a motorola 68000 we are not talking about “some instructions being 32 bit”, th e processor was basically a 32 bit processor with a 16 bit databus. Like I said, that is why the Atari ST was called a ST.
If that is to hard for you to understand, that is fine, but don’t call ppl stupid just because you are a bit dim.
The G4 is a 32/64 bit hybrid, it does not have “some 64 bit instructions”, ALL of it’s registers are 64 bit. And its vector processing unit is true 128 bit, not just “some instructions being able to handle big results”.
So a G4 does not have 64 bit addressing, it still can handle 64bit calculations, just takes two fetches.
And as for my republican remark, I used “make” not “made”, hence meaning the republicans in power now, not centuries ago.
Brush up your English, and get whatever crawled up your ### out, it is making you grouchy.
You’re statement was:
So seen in this light (where the G4 already is capable of true 64 and 128 bit calculations), the G5 can actually be called a 64/128 bit processor. The silly focus on addressing in the threads on osnews about Apple are ignorant and shortsighted.
By this statement you’re implying that the next version or even the current version of the OS is 64 bit. The silly focus on addressing is what the debate has been about. Apple has made statements about 8GBi of memory. Well in order for an application to utilize this data space It must use 8 bit pointers or go back to sliding windows. (aka old DOs tricks).
This pink bird you brought up is stupid, By a chip having a greater bit instruction has been common in chips for way to long.
6809 – 8 bit addressing 16 bit math
Cray – 32 bit addressing 4096 bit vector instructions
VMS chips , IA32, 68K etc.
And the greatest example of all times the Ataria game console.
This idea that a chip has support for, has instructions for or even breathes near a higher bit width causes the nOS to become a higher bit width is navie and a desprate grasp by a MAc user.
And on the issue of politics Regan won the cold war, Bush I hurt the econmy clinton gave us NAFTA and DMCA and Bush II took out a muderous slave, women killing dicator.
Donaldson
” What Apple competes on is not the issue. The issue is the Apple zealots that continue to claim that equivalent performing PCs cost as much, or even more than Macs. That is simply bullshit. You and I both know it is. But unlike some of the Mac zealots, you admit that the Mac is more expensive for the same level of performance. ”
If you are talking about performance then that is another issue. A $400 PC is gonna have equivalent but more likely better performance than an eMac. This is true for the dual G4s as well. Its only now with the G5s that Apple can say that they are equal to or better than Intel’s advanced offerings.
”
BTW, that $799 is with no monitor. Slap a 17 inch monitor onto it and you are up around $950.”
The $799 is an eMac with an monitor built in. Its Apple’s successor to the iMac so the CRT, system and speakers are integrated into a single form factor.
A similiarly equipped Dell will be faster, but the point it Macs are not expensive. IF we are talking about performance then I can say that the G3s and G4s lag the P4s. The Dells with Celerons that we purchase are good for business apps but are also by no means fast when running 2000 or XP.
“The issue is that I don’t see the benefits. I’m getting a system that will not perform as well, and I am paying twice as much as I would pay for a PC. Sure there are some benefits to the Mac, as you pointed out. But are they worth paying an extra $450 for? I don’t think so.”
I can understand your viewpoint but at the same time when you have used an eMac it is by no definition a crippled system. For many people just the fact that its not a PC is good, other people like the form factor, others like the fact that the BIOS is plug and play and extrenely easy to update. For other just the fact that it doesn’t run Windows is good enough. I can understand your viewpoint but the crux of the argument centered on cost and Macs are not insanely priced that no one can afford them.
If you want to talk about performance that another issue as well but just as old and tired. G3 and G4 per clock is faster than intel X86 but they can’t compete on that factor alone when usually X86 has double the clock speed advantage and usually more. Any IPC efficiency is negated by lack of MHZ and a slow bus. The G5s are a different story.
“Microsoft has NEVER given me a compelling reason to upgrade. This box runs WinME fine. Everything works. Does everything I need, except run Mac OS 9.1 ( It runs Mac OS 8.1 via Executor faster than a 1st generation PPC )”
OS X gave me a compelling reason to upgrade to a Mac from a PC. My DVD player died on me, Acrobat Reader wouldn’t load, and when I tripled the RAM, my Toshiba couldn’t make use of it. And at that I have had more success with ME than anyone I know. I have triple the RAM of my mother’s computer (both eMacs) – same model and OS and it runs much faster. But the main reason why I upgraded was that what I was producing in terms of content was much more valuable than how much the computer cost and I trusted my content much better on the Mac as well as I was able to run much better graphics programs and spend much less time trying to get things done on the computer.
“Basically, my understanding is to stay current on OSX upgrades, you need to spend $100-$130 every year, versus $90-$100 every 3 years for the newest Windows release, or $0 every 6 months for the newest Linux release. ”
To get support for Linux you have to pay just as much and you have to keep upgrading to start getting close to the functionality of others OSes.
“The $799 is an eMac with an monitor built in. Its Apple’s successor to the iMac so the CRT, system and speakers are integrated into a single form factor.”
Ah. Ok. You were talking about the eMac. Apple and their damn “all in one systems”. Basically, I won’t touch an all in one system with a 10 foot pole unless it is a laptop.
If Apple could just take the guts of the eMac, throw it in a mid-tower case, and throw in a 17 inch CRT and sell it for the same price as the eMac, I might even considee buying. Its the all in one design that keeps me from wanting one of them.
“I can understand your viewpoint but at the same time when you have used an eMac it is by no definition a crippled system.”
That’s true. It isn’t. In fact, it would be more than enough computing power that most people need. (which is one reason I think the G5 has limited value to the average consumer. So do high end P4s for that matter). But once again, its that damn all in one design that keeps me away from them.
Laptops are a different story. Apple’s laptops are roughly equivalent to PC laptops in price. And I don’t have any design issues to complain about with their laptops.
“This is true for the dual G4s as well. Its only now with the G5s that Apple can say that they are equal to or better than Intel’s advanced offerings.”
The G5 will out perform a high end P4. However, I would be interested in doing a benchmark with a similar cost P4 system. The reason is that I could build a dual P4 for the same price as a single G5. If the P4 had two processors, the G5 would probably lose its speed advantage.
Yes, there is the dual G5, which even a dual P4 could not beat. But I can’t imagine Apple is going to sell too many dual G5s. Those things cost as much as a decent used car by the time you get a monitor on them.
>> Yes, there is the dual G5, which even a dual P4 could not beat. But I can’t imagine Apple is going to sell too many dual G5s. Those things cost as much as a decent used car by the time you get a monitor on them
I believe Apple has sold mostly dual G5 systems actually. I remember reading this on a few sites, but can’t find the links.
Personally, the only G5 to buy is the dual system. Much more bang for your buck. The single processor systems are limited by different factors. The low end model uses slower RAM, while the mid-range model has the faster RAM, but doesn’t have the PCI-X slots of the dual G5.
“Linux won’t run major software from M$, Adobe, or Macromedia.”
Uhm, yeah it will. Linux runs em all just fine with Vmware, Crossover or even Wine. I mean, seriously.
Wine wasn’t even attempting to support all the features and there is no technical support from any of those companies. Also your computer is then open to Windows viruii which is the main reason to go Linux in the first place (virus immunity).
“However, I would be interested in doing a benchmark with a similar cost P4 system. The reason is that I could build a dual P4 for the same price as a single G5.”
Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about because p4s do not support SMP. Only Xeons support SMP as far as Intels current offerings go.
“European Fords”
Joseph Lucas, Prince of darkness.
http://vintagecars.about.com/library/bllucas.htm
“The Lucas motto: “Get home before dark.””
eNetZero darkened the pixels on my monitor thusly:
“>> Yes, there is the dual G5, which even a dual P4 could not beat. ”
Consider that you can buy Quad Xeons and Quad Opterons of the shelf, it makes the “top of the Line” & “it aint shipped yet” look pathetic.
“Jet-Stream 4U Quad Opteron”
“SUPERMICRO XEON QUAD P4 MP 4U RACKMOUNT BAREBONE SERVER (P4QH6 + SC862)”
OPPS! The Quad Zeon P4 is CHEAPER than a dual G5 ;(
” Consider that you can buy Quad Xeons and Quad Opterons of the shelf, it makes the “top of the Line” & “it aint shipped yet” look pathetic.
“Jet-Stream 4U Quad Opteron”
“SUPERMICRO XEON QUAD P4 MP 4U RACKMOUNT BAREBONE SERVER (P4QH6 + SC862)”
OPPS! The Quad Zeon P4 is CHEAPER than a dual G5 ;(”
When did we get into servers?
“But I can’t imagine Apple is going to sell too many dual G5s.”
The majority of the G5’s being sold are duals.
As for the price thing, you can also build a Mac for far under what Apple sells them for.
And Linux, I love it, but professionaly it doesn’t work for me. I use Final Cut a lot, and Linux won’t run it.
“Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about because p4s do not support SMP. Only Xeons support SMP as far as Intels current offerings go.”
Which is basically a P4 with a larger cache that can do SMP. (Yes, I know there are a few other MINOR differences) In fact, its even marketed as a P4 Xeon. SMP P4 is ASSUMED to be Xeon.
So next time you try to insult someone by saying they don’t know what they are talking about, you would do well to remember that phrase about “it’s better to be silent and thought a fool then open your mouth and remove all doubt.”
“Personally, the only G5 to buy is the dual system. Much more bang for your buck.”
Except very few people need that much bang. By the time I put a monitor on that thing, I am looking at a $3,700 computer…. When an $800 computer would do everything I need.
Hmm… I think I would rather save myself $2,900… I can think of a lot of things I could do with that $2,900… Like go on vacation in Europe, the Bahamas, or many other places.
BTW, that $799 is with no monitor. Slap a 17 inch monitor onto it and you are up around $950.
Uh…is that why the link that the person you are responding to points to a page of eMacs…computers with built in 17 inch displays?
http://www.powermax.com/cgi-global/generate.cgi?i=PM_CN_EM
Consider that you can buy Quad Xeons and Quad Opterons of the shelf, it makes the “top of the Line” & “it aint shipped yet” look pathetic.
Once again, another reminder to another silly PC zealot…the G5 has shipped.
Please check before posting a statement like that.
You can see that the G5 has started shipping…check the Apple site (if you don’t know it is http://www.apple.com ).
You claim you can
1. Match the Mac specs I provide
2. Provide a PC which will out perform said mac and cost less than half.
To keep things simple
1. No monitors. Just a PC.
2. No pricewatch individuals components assembled. Retail systems only with a 1 year full sytem warranty for the entire system.
I am a enduser and want to click a few buttons and have a PC shipped without a monitor. I already have a monitor.
Apple powermac G4
• 1.25GHz w/ 1MB L3 Cache
• 512MB DDR333 SDRAM (PC2700) -1 DIMM
• 80GB Ultra ATA drive
• Optical 1 – Combo Drive (DVD/CD-RW)
• Optical 2 – None
• ATI Radeon 9000 Pro dual-display w/64MB DDR
• 56K internal modem
• Apple Pro Keyboard – U.S. English
• Mac OS – U.S. English
Subtotal $1,424.00
Oh you will also have to explain why the PC you spec out will out perform this Mac and under what applications. Don’t forget it would have to cost less than half of the mac.
Here is the full tech spec. Please use this in conjunction with the above configuration to get all built in components such as gigabit ethernet, firewire and usb ports.
Technical Specifications
Processing and memory
1.25GHz PowerPC G4 processor
Dual 1.25GHz PowerPC G4 processors (build-to-order option)
Velocity Engine for 128-bit single-instruction, multiple data (SIMD) processing
Full 128-bit internal memory data paths
Powerful floating-point unit supporting single-cycle, double-precision calculations
Data stream prefetching operations supporting four simultaneous 32-bit data streams
256K on-chip L2 cache running at processor speed
1MB DDR SRAM L3 cache per processor (2MB DDR SRAM L3 cache per processor with dual 1.25GHz PowerPC G4 build-to-order option)
167MHz system bus supporting over 1.3GBps data throughput
256MB of PC2700 (333MHz) DDR SDRAM main memory supporting up to 2.7GBps throughput
Four DIMM slots supporting up to 2GB of DDR SDRAM using one of the following (2):
– 256MB DIMMs (64-bit-wide, 128 or 256 Mbit)
– 512MB DIMMs (64-bit-wide, 256 Mbit)
Graphics and display support
ATI Radeon 9000 Pro graphics card with 64MB of DDR SDRAM preinstalled in a dedicated AGP 4X graphics slot
NVIDIA GeForce4 Titanium graphics card with 128MB of DDR SDRAM (build-to-order option)
Support for digital resolutions up to 1920 by 1200 pixels; analog resolutions up to 1600 by 1200 pixels
ADC and DVI connectors; DVI to VGA adapter included
Dual display support for extended desktop and video mirroring modes
Support for up to two Apple flat-panel displays (1)
Communications
10/100/1000BASE-T Ethernet connector (RJ-45)
Built-in antennas and expansion slot for optional 11-Mbps AirPort Card (based on 802.11b Wi-Fi certified) (4)
Built-in 56K v.92 modem (5)
Storage and expansion
Four 3.5-inch hard drive expansion bays:
– One 80GB 7200-rpm Ultra ATA/100 drive preinstalled (160GB build-to-order option)(3)
– Support for up to four internal ATA drives (two Ultra ATA/100 and two Ultra ATA/66)
– Support for up to four internal SCSI drives (requires third-party solution not offered by Apple)
– Support for a combination of internal SCSI and ATA drives (total of four, requires third-party solution not offered by Apple)
Two optical drive bays:
– Combo drive (DVD-ROM/CD-RW) preinstalled; reads DVDs at 12x speed, writes CD-R discs at 32x speed, writes CD-RW discs at 10x speed, reads CDs at 32x speed
– SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW); writes DVD-R discs at 4x speed, reads DVDs at 8x speed, writes CD-R discs at 16x speed, writes CD-RW discs at 8x speed, reads CDs at 32x speed (build-to-order option)
– Optional Combo drive in second optical drive bay
Four open, full-length 64-bit, 33MHz PCI slots
Peripherals and audio
Two FireWire 400 ports (15W total power)
Four USB ports (two on system, two on keyboard)
Front headphone jack and speaker
Stereo analog audio line in and line out minijacks
Apple speaker minijack for connection to optional Apple Pro Speakers
Electrical and environmental requirements
Meets ENERGY STAR requirements
Line voltage: 100-120V AC or 200V-240V AC
Frequency: 50Hz to 60Hz, single phase
Maximum current: 6.5A (low voltage range) or 3.5A (high voltage range)
Operating temperature: 50° to 95° F (10° to 35° C)
Storage temperature: -40° to 116° F (-40° to 47° C)
Relative humidity: 5% to 95% noncondensing
Maximum altitude: 10,000 feet
Size and weight
Height: 17.0 inches (43.2 cm)
Width: 8.9 inches (22.7 cm)
Depth: 18.4 inches (46.8 cm)
Weight: 42 pounds (19.1 kg) (7)
>>Except very few people need that much bang. By the time I put a monitor on that thing, I am looking at a $3,700 computer…. When an $800 computer would do everything I need.
Hmm… I think I would rather save myself $2,900… I can think of a lot of things I could do with that $2,900… Like go on vacation in Europe, the Bahamas, or many other places.
The point was made that the single processor Macs would be more popular because they are less expensive. That is not the case. The dual G5 Macs are more popular, precisely because they are more powerful.
If all I wanted a machine for was web browsing, word processing, playing with my digital equipment and some occassional gaming, I’d get an eMac or iMac. (I don’t want to bother with building a machine, tweaking a machine, removing viruses from a machine, blah blah blah- the eMac is perfect for the non-geek user). If I wanted a powerful computer for whatever it is that I wanted to do I’d get the dual G5.
Not dissing linux, not even dissing M$ (for once). But the Mac is just right.
Australians do make cars. They make Holden (GM, like Opel Germany, Vauxhal UK, Cadilac/Buick/whathaveyou USA) that especially in the bigger models differ from their German or US stable-mates, and Fords. Ford Australia also makes cars that (in the bigger model ranges) make cars that are quite different from US or European Fords.,
I am actually from New Zealand but living in Australian, however, even when New Zealand made cars no one used to buy them because they were so crap, heck, for the same price of a moderately priced Australian assembled car I can buy a nice BMW or Merc in New Zealand.
The only thing keeping the car industry in Australia afloat are tariffs and “investments”, aka, subsidies. 20million people cannot sustain a 3 producer car industry. If there was just one player in Australia, I am sure it would be viable, however, the number that are here is absolutely rediculous.
I am sure you can work around that issue, however, I am sure than most PC fanboys do the legal thing and pay for their software or otherwise their whole PC is cheaper argument falls to pieces like a cheap US made car.
Yeah, nothing like an australian made car, oh wait you don’t make cars do you?
Of course moronic statements like that don’t even phase me anymore in an Apple thread on OSNews.
Oh great, I have to post another long information session on how Detroit was bailed out by the US government. Ok, here goes.
When Ronald Reagan was voted in as president, the first thing he did was to deregulate the market. Up until then the US had an economic model very similar to that of Europe.
One of the first things that happened as the deregulation of the car industry. The idea was for the US car manufacturers to become more efficient, however, what really happened was the Japanese ate the US car industry for lunch. Fast forward a year, detroit starts complaining to the central government in regards to “unfair competition”, central government ALSO is lobbied by the environmental groups to pass mandatory emmission targets, fuel consumption etc etc. After much lobbying the US auto industry lost its case, however, it was able to get automobiles based on a truck chassy to be exempt from this legislation.
Fast forward a new years, the car industry is then pulled back from the brink, HOW? buy creating SUV’s based on a truck chassy. Net result? the car industry could make their cars as fuel inefficient as humanly possible and there wasn’t a damn thing the US government could do about it.
During this time roll overs in relation to SUV’s increased, instead of a inquiry the Reagan administration CUT the automotive safety authotities budget and as a result, they had to give up persuing the car companies producing shonky automobiles based on flawed designs.
The US automotive industry is nothing but a big chariety case, just like the US steel industry and agriculture. Instead of being more efficient, they ask for hand outs or “spontaneously” win a contract for automobiles that are no required.
Where in your nice little story are the government subsidies that support our car industry?
Yes, the car industry lobbied for laws to help protect them, does that mean that all american industries that lobby for laws are bad too? How about our ag industry?
Also, the Japanese “ate our lunch” because:
a.) We built their automobile and steel industry from the ground up after WWII. (Commonly known historical fact.)
b.) The Japanese have some of the most ridiculous protectionist government subsidy/import tarriff systems in the world. (Commonly known economic fact.) Why else do you think it costs $20 bucks for a steak over there? American made cars are virtually nonexistant in many countries outside of the US for the exact same reason.
But what the HELL does this have to do with computers?
Anyway, back on topic:
The G5 is a nice thing for Apple, hopefully they can convince enough consumers that they are worthwhile, otherwise Apple will see continually declining market share, Windows XP ain’t bad, and Linux is getting better. Apple’s bread and butter market is seeing the software being pulled right out from under them. They’re playing a very dangerous game right now. OS X is NOT easier to use than Win XP especially if you’re used to Windows, so niche market A is in trouble. If Adobe pulls out of the Mac market, which is a very real possibility, they have the kind of pull to do just that and not suffer much in the way of consequences, niche market B is in trouble. So what else does that really leave Apple? Niche market C, the UNIX workstation market, for the geek who needs mainstream software and a pretty interface. The thing is, niche market C is the fastest closing market of all, Linux IS becoming a serious contender, and it’s just as stable (some would say more stable), almost as mainstream, alot more powerful, and a helluvalot cheaper (even if you buy a boxed distro like RedHat or Mandrake, or pay for a subscription service like RedHat Network or Mandrake Club). Hell, Linux is even becoming easy to use thanks to the KDE and Gnome projects.
At least Apple has diversified with iTMS and iPods and things like that. They may just be Apple’s saviour. Of course Apple is the DEFINITION of a company that’s been dying ever since it was founded, so I know they’ll cling to life somehow.
They’re playing a very dangerous game right now. OS X is NOT easier to use than Win XP especially if you’re used to Windows, so niche market A is in trouble. If Adobe pulls out of the Mac market, which is a very real possibility, they have the kind of pull to do just that and not suffer much in the way of consequences,
Adobe gets about half of their revenue from the Mac market. I doubt Adobe will pull out unless Apple releases a Photoshop killer.
Linux IS becoming a serious contender, and it’s just as stable (some would say more stable), almost as mainstream
The Mac will be able to run most if not all of the Linux software through X11. Most of the worthwhile OSS apps have native ports. What’s good for Linux (software wise) is good for the Mac.
With few exceptions, the titles the Mac has lost are replaced with better ones. (Safari – IE, Final Cut – Premiere).
Adobe gets about half of their revenue from the Mac market. I doubt Adobe will pull out unless Apple releases a Photoshop killer.
Well, Apple has been screwing their software vendors lately *cough cough* Final Cut *cough cough* Safari *cough cough* Apple Works. Not that I’m necessarily against this, personally, the more competition and diversity the better as far as I’m concerned. Anyway, Apple releasing a PhotoShop killer is not too far of a stretch. (A beefed up, Aqua-ized Gimp with some Apple branding and a lower price tag would definitely do some damage in the marketplace.)
That reminds me of another interesting double standard in the OS market. Why is it okay, or even encouraged behavior for Apple and the Linux Distros to include tons of bundled software, while everytime Microsoft wants to add so much as a basic system utility (scandisk, defrag, and a virus scanner should have been added to the OS much sooner than they were) they get accused of “monopolistic practices.”
People bitch about Microsoft bundling media player, but Apple’s had QuickTime since what, the eighties?
You probably think in the rest of the world too, it is just to think hard and make effort that the laws of nature (aka market) will bring you 26k a year…
Man… How people didn’t realized that yet in the majority of the places in the world???? How can we be so stupid to have such bad salaries out of Nevada?!!? I will tell all citizens of my country to stop whining and maybe inite you to be our leader…
As for Rob Potts who said “At a starting price of US$ 1995.00 I’d say they are extreamly affordable”… I should say… I don’t know what I should say… I have headaches when I think that US$1995,00 should be EXTREMELY AFFORDABLE… Maybe I should ask you and Kady to be our co-leaders! In which dimension/planet do you live?
Here you are: way faster HDD (SATA), RAM, video, faster processor, faster CDRW/DVD
Asus P4C800-E-Deluxe 3.2GB Intel $835 (IEEE 1394 module – for you Firewire, SATA RAID, support max 4GB RAM,Intel Gigabit LAN, 6-channel digital audio, 8 USB 2.0 ports)
Maxtor SATA 120GB
LG ELECTRONICS – 48X/24X/48X + 16X CD-RW/DVD-ROM
ATI Radeon 9600 PRO 256MB DDR AGP8X DVI+CRT+TVO
Dual Channel PC3200 DDR 512MB 1 stick (but 2x256MB will give you 400DDR so that is even faster (same price as 1 stick))
keyboard
Cordless Wheel mouse
case
Win XP Pro
or free FREBSD, linux
$1390 – 1488 (depending on what OS you prefer)
I already have Opteron 246 (2x2GB AMD) system cost ~$3700. Speed? Acording to latest IBM benchmarks this is the fastest processor you can get.
Do you have dual G5 2GB with 2GB RAM? Can you buy cheaper G5? Of course, but not with the same specs.
I really dont understand all this ranting about how cheap Apple is or how much PC is cheaper. For the same price I can built faster system than yours. If I would be you I never would even respond to the argument that PC with the same specs is 50% of Apple price because this i simply not true. Is as stupid as Apple’s own argument that Mac’s are a little cheaper or at the same price or a little more expensive: it depends on confguration. For the same config PCs are allways cheaper (but never 50%) and the only reason for it is that there are clones or one can built a box with desired specs. The first box I have buit seven years ago is still working without hardware problems. So if one wants it s posible to bult PC of high quality and still cheaper than Dell, Gateway or whatever you pick.
However if you want to buy Mac then buy one it is first class box.
The challenge needs to be on similar terms. Anonynous’ challenge was that he could get a PC that outperforms any apple of similar spec and cost 1/3 (first post) or less than 1/2 (second post).
I suggested it has to be a retail system I can just click and purchase. I mentioned I am just a consumer who doesn’t know how to build a PC, for challenge purposes.
Your system can not just be purchased from one vendor, it has to be assembled. So it is not comparable. Also just giving me raw specs is in no way telling me why your system would outperform the mac and under what applications.
No one questions that you can’t build a pc cheaper. But when you talking about retail it is a different market. Apple is a retailer so we shoulf compare retailers such as Dell, emachines, IBM, gatreway.
I didn’t fully read your post. I agree with what you said in the end. I was just responding to ridiculous claims people make without understanding system performance.
There is more to system performance than just raw specs. The OS compiler and applications make a big difference. If either of the 3 is badly coded you can have serious performance issues.
Say X app for windows is very popular and produces y numbers under some obscure benchmark, that matters to me. It can very well run faster on a mac with a 1 ghz cou than a pc with 3.06ghz P4 simply because the programmer wrote it better and the compiler did a better job optimizing the binary. Or the fact that 1 MB of L3 cache of the G3 favors this app than the 512k L2 cache alone of the P4.
typo: G3 not G4
Well, to be fair, I didn’t say I was going to find you an off the shelf system for less than half. I said I could configure a system for less than half. That would be a system I build myself, which takes about an hour, and is more than worth it to me to say myself $700 to $800.
But I can still get a hell of a lot cheaper than the Mac you just gave me a pride for.
How’s this:
Dell Dimmension 4600
– P4 at 2.4 Ghz
– 512 Mb DDR RAM
– 64 Mb NVidea GEForce 4 MX
– 80 Gb Ultra ATA drive
– Optical 1: Combo drive (DVD/CDRW)
– Optical 2: None
– 56K internal modem
– Dell QuietKey keyboard
– Windows XP Home edition
This system also have a few extras that I could not remove from the configuration to create an exact match:
– 1 year full system warranty with ON SITE service (The Mac’s warranty is not onsite)
– WordPerfect Office 11 (The Mac comes with no office software).
Subtotal: $828
Savings over Mac you gave: $596
This Dell system has a processor that will leave the 1.25 Ghz G4 in the dust. (I don’t have time right now. But I can find the benchmarks to prove it). It comes with a very capable office package (the Mac doesn’t). It has a better video card. (The GEForce 4). And it comes with external speakers. (The Mac doesn’t.)… All for $596 dollars less than the Mac.
Yes, there is the dual G5, which even a dual P4 could not beat. But I can’t imagine Apple is going to sell too many dual G5s. Those things cost as much as a decent used car by the time you get a monitor on them.
A) Out of the G5s sold, most have been dual G5s. I don’t have a link handy…if I stumble across one of them again, I’ll post it.
B) Please send me a link to a manufacturer of Dual P4 systems. As I recall, there is no such thing. There are dual Xeon systems…but then again that isn’t a P4.
BTW, I could have used a 2.4 Ghz Celeron processor and gotten well under half the price of the Mac. Even the 2.4 Ghz Celeron would likely be on the same performance level as the 1.25 Ghz G4. But I can’t say that for sure, so I didn’t use the Celeron processor in my configuration.
“B) Please send me a link to a manufacturer of Dual P4 systems. As I recall, there is no such thing. There are dual Xeon systems…but then again that isn’t a P4.”
The Xeon processor is basically a P4 with a larger cache that can do SMP. In fact, it is often marketed as a P4 Xeon. The regular P4 cannot do dual processing. But when someone says a dual P4 it is assumed they are refering to the P4 Xeon.
Oh… One more thing.
Apple does not offer the option of OEM MS Office. To get an office package with the eqivalent power of WordPerfect Office 11, you would have to add MS Office X to that Mac. Additional cost? $367. Now my total savings with the Dell is $963. At that point, my cost for an equivalent system is less than half of the Mac you gave me.
And don’t try to tell me that AppleWorks is an option. It’s no where near as capable as WordPerfect Office 11.
And no, you can’t use OpenOffice here either. Because according to your own terms, we are buying for the average consumer. And I think we have to assume that the average consumer does not want to, and probably doesn’t know how, to mess around with beta software that runs under X Darwin.
The Xeon processor is basically a P4 with a larger cache that can do SMP. In fact, it is often marketed as a P4 Xeon. The regular P4 cannot do dual processing. But when someone says a dual P4 it is assumed they are refering to the P4 Xeon.
If you meant Xeon…why not just state you meant Xeon. This issue has been brought up before. To make it easy to avoid confusion…if you want to refer to a Xeon based system…call it a Xeon…not a P4 even if they are essentially the same because what most people think of as a P4 is NOT the Xeon. If you say “Dual P4” it is easy to think you really mean a dual P4 not a dual Xeon.
“A) Out of the G5s sold, most have been dual G5s. I don’t have a link handy…if I stumble across one of them again, I’ll post it.”
Soo… Most of the systems sold, have not been shipped.
“B) Please send me a link to a manufacturer of Dual P4 systems. As I recall, there is no such thing. There are dual Xeon systems…but then again that isn’t a P4.”
Dual P4-Xeon http://www.orbitmicro.com/products/rackmount%20chassis/1U/atx/R…
Look for Quad P4-Xeon ( Shipping ) “Thunder GC-HE (S4520)”
Dual G5. ( Not shipping )
“I ordered my dual 2ghz G5 right after the keynote,
and my shipping date still says On or before August 29.”
and DOH!
http://www.apple.com/powermac/
Apple lists the SpecINT_Base 2000 as SLOWER for integer operations ( i.e. You think the GUI runs in Floating Point? )
Single 2Ghz PowerPC G5 = 800 ( Larger numbers are better)
Single 3Ghz Pentium 4 = 889 ( Id be running for shame about now )
Xeon is a class of processors that have larger caches.
P4 is a distinct class of processor, and the Pentium 4 core does come with a Xeon model. Dont let the marketing types fool you. Apple has you snowed in…
I just wrote:
“Dual G5. ( Not shipping )”
Dual G5. Shipping.
Thanks to &%&&@apple.com for the phone call… ;(
Soo… Most of the systems sold, have not been shipped.
But they are shipping! The claim that I was arguing against was that the G5 was not available and was not shipping. It is shipping. Apple has received far more demand than they anticipated with the Dual G5…thus there is a delay for a few days for some people. There are those out there who have had their G5s shipped…including the dual G5.
Apple lists the SpecINT_Base 2000 as SLOWER for integer operations ( i.e. You think the GUI runs in Floating Point? )
Single 2Ghz PowerPC G5 = 800 ( Larger numbers are better)
Single 3Ghz Pentium 4 = 889 ( Id be running for shame about now )
You’ll note that the benchmark you have provided is for a single 2Ghz G5 vs. the 3Ghz P4. Since the 2Ghz model comes as a dual system, the day to day use of it will blow away the P4 3 Ghz. Further, you are comparing a 2 Ghz and a 3 Ghz with a benchmark that is really close…not bad for something running 1 Ghz slower.
P4 is a distinct class of processor, and the Pentium 4 core does come with a Xeon model. Dont let the marketing types fool you. Apple has you snowed in…
How am I snowed in by Apple? I actually argued that the P4 and the Xeon were different classes of processors. Your comment just doesn’t make that much sense. All I asked for was that there be clarification when referring to P4s…be they Xeon or just a regular P4 since some people might be confused. Don’t tell me I am snowed in…you don’t know me or my views well enough to do that…especially since I use a P4 myself.
The thing to remember here is 32 bit code in the tests. The P4 won’t run 64 bit apps, which will be here very soon. Given it will be a while for minor apps to change, the pro ones have already started (PhotoShop, Logic).
Do you think apple will come up with G5 version with two optical drives?
Probably. I don’t know where they’ll put it, but they will eventually do it.