I work in a genetics research laboratory at an academic institution. Recently, a colleague of mine was having a lot of trouble with his Windows 2000 workstation. I took a look at it and determined that the ethernet card built onto the motherboard had failed, and so bought a new ethernet card to plug into an available PCI slot. But, for whatever reasons, Windows continued to have enormous difficulty dealing with the failed onboard ethernet card. Even after a clean reinstallation of Windows, we continued to experience enormous problems with the ethernet connection.
But that wasn’t all. The external USB-pluggable Hewlett Packard DVD burner which he needed for saving backups of large genetics data sets appeared to constantly conflict with the built-in CD burner. And, just to add insult to injury, Window’s printer management dialog kept hanging so I couldn’t configure the printers!
After I and other colleagues had wasted much time trying to configure and re-configure Windows, I finally decided that I would try installing our new copy of SuSE 9.0 on this machine. We had bought SuSE 9.0 for a new server installation. I had not originally contemplated installing Linux on my colleague’s desktop workstation because (1) he is a biologist who had never used (and possibly not even heard of) Linux or any *nix-based operating system before, and (2) he needed access to genetics programs like Sequencher (used for sequence analysis) which were Windows-only and might not work under Wine/CrossOver Office. But we agreed that having a computer that worked –regardless of operating system– would be much better than one that did not work! So the die was cast and I installed SuSE 9.0 alongside Windows 2000 in a dual-boot configuration.
Now here’s the good part of the story: First, SuSE’s installer autodetected all of the hardware perfectly. It automatically configured the ethernet card in the PCI slot for DHCP and just ignored the bad card on the motherboard!
Even better than this was that the very first time I stuck a blank DVD in the DVD burner, KDE’s K3B CD burning program came up right away and we were able to burn a DVD of all of his genetic data by just dragging and dropping directories into K3B! There was no fussing with conflicting drivers as had been the case with Windows. It just worked! End of story. Configuring network printers was also flawless.
For access to Windows programs, I installed Codeweaver’s Crossover Office 2.1.0 which not only runs Word, Powerpoint, Excel, and Photoshop quickly and as far as I can tell flawlessly, but importantly also allowed the genetics program Sequencher to run. While of course it would be ideal see programs like Photoshop ported to a native Linux versions, until that happens Wine and Crossover Office are like a dream come true –especially when an unsupported Windows application works fine, as was the case here.
I have learned several things from this experience. First, there has been a lot of discussion in the media recently about whether Linux is “ready” for the desktop. That’s a bit of a vague question in my mind. It would be better to rephrase the question: For what groups of users is Linux now ready to cater to on the desktop? It is now clear to me that the audience of potential Linux desktop users is much broader than I formerly imagined. When I think about the minimum amount that one now has to learn in order to start using Linux on the desktop (i.e., 1. Click once in KDE instead of twice, 2. The directory tree starts with “/” instead of the “C:” drive, 3. Learn what “rwxr-xr-x” means, and 4. Learn a few *nix commands like “cd” and “ls -l” so that one can see the permissions flags on files), it is clear that any competent employee of an organization who uses a computer can do this.
On the other hand, while the barrier to Linux usage by employees is arguably quite low, the real barrier is more likely that management and system administrators in many organizations may not yet have a clue about how to deploy Linux effectively. A clear prerequisite is having sysadmins who understand Linux or other *nix operating systems. For example, while this desktop installation of SuSE 9.0 proceeded flawlessly –and indeed much better than I anticipated would be the case with some failing hardware in the mix– the installation of Crossover Office required a trivial bit of additional manual setup that certainly could have stumped Windows sysadmins who were new to Linux (Crossover installs without issue on SuSE 9.0, but application icons do not show up on the user’s desktop). Solving the nuts and bolts of minor installation issues is however just a small part of the equation. A more important aspect is the realization that tools like Crossover Office exist and may have a number of advantages (speed, cost, …) over alternative solutions like VMWare for organizations that are looking for practical ways to deploy Linux on a wider scale than they have previously.
About the Author
Ed Trager is a bioinformatics programmer at the W. K. Kellogg Eye Center at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, USA.
Is it just me or are drivers now becoming one of Linux good features?
Ok so its still far from perfect (I still havn’t quite got my radeon doing dual head) but its far less of a problem than it once was.
Maybe this is because you can have many experienced developers diagnose the faults on their own different hardware – it would be interesting to have this explored further.
It’s nice that the guy who installed SuSE is happy.
But the actual user of the system isnt mentioned.
Is he satisfied with SuSE? Or does he boot into Win2000?
How did you have Groupwise installed on Linux? I tried to install the Windows version on Crossover, but no chance.
Did you use the Java-Version from Novell Beta?
Wow that sounds truly expensive compared to other solutions on the market.
I think it’s quite rare that people have driver issues with Windows as this is usually Windows upside.
However on a 2-3 year perspective, SuseLinux seems incredibly expensive compared to the alternative, Windows.
Not knocking the switch to Linux, for whatever reason, but the guy could have solved his failed onboard hardware problem quite easily by disabling the bad onboard NIC in the BIOS. That and a clean Windows reinstall would have definitely solved all the problems, unless there was other bad harddware — but it doesn’t look like there was because SuSE installed nicely.
But hey, the net result was another satisfied Linux user, so who cares really?
))
Wow that sounds truly expensive compared to other solutions on the market.
I think it’s quite rare that people have driver issues with Windows as this is usually Windows upside.
However on a 2-3 year perspective, SuseLinux seems incredibly expensive compared to the alternative, Windows.
It kind of evens its self out if you use something like Fedora or Debian. With that being said, why would one purchase SuSE Linux Home Edition when the better thing would have been for the user to purchase SUSE Linux Desktop ( http://www.suse.com/us/business/products/sld/ ) which comes with Crossover Office already.
For me, I purchased the $34.95 Red Hat 9 Person Edition and threw on Cross Over Office and purchased a second hand version of Office 2000 off the local trade and exchange for around $20. So all in all, it was a cheap indever for me.
The article doesn’t say, but I should imagine that the other user was happy, bearing in mind that Win2k was unusable for him! At least this way he could get some work done!
Wow that sounds truly expensive compared to other solutions on the market
You forget that you can use the Suse distribution on multiple machines without paying for extra licenses. He already bought it for his server, so it was pretty much free to install it on others. The only other thing was Codeweavers Crossover, and that’s hardly expensive.
I have yet to recieve or get a working copy of SuSE Linux 9.0. The ISO’s I did get for a review turned out to be pretty much problematic and I had a lot of problems with them, I never recieved the final gold code build so I can only assume the final version works well.
Drivers are the biggest problem for me. Can’t get my integrated sound card to work and my Hercules Fortissimo III sound card doesn’t work as it should so I had to plug in my old SB Live card. The integrated gigabit ethernet doesn’t work. The IDE controller does work with SuSE 9 but it didn’t with Redhat 9. Turning on hw acceleration on my Radeon 9700 Pro locks up everything. Can’t even log in via SSH. With SuSE’s updated Radeon drivers, I got hw acceleration working a little better but instead I can’t play videos. The overlay thing is messed up. Hw acceleration on my GF4MX doesn’t work, using nvidia drivers. That’s maybe because AGP 8x doesn’t work with linux 2.4 and you can’t just tell it to use 4x either.
These problems are quite many and quite annoying. I did some research before I got the Asus A7V600 motherboard and none of the other motherboards I had to choose from didn’t seem to work better with linux. I hate having to choose between recent hardware and Linux compatibility. Will this even get better in the future?
Suse has a reiserfs by default.The partiontool isn’t like Mandrake 9.x . Both distro’s work well. Suse is “deutsche Gruendlichkeit” and still improving.:-)
Go 1 year back and tell me how things looked…When done, go back to today and tell me if things have improved!
Let me spare you your time..Yes it is improving and will become much better in the future.
> Go 1 year back and tell me how things looked…When done,
> go back to today and tell me if things have improved!
> Let me spare you your time..Yes it is improving and will
> become much better in the future.
It shouldn’t be forgotten that a lot of these drivers are ported or even written with reference to BSD drivers. A lot of networking code (in particular) in Linux was borrowed from FreeBSD. FreeBSD was also the first OSS OS to have 802.11g support. Also, remember where OpenSSH originated? NetBSD has lead the way and showed how OSs (like Linux) can be written to run on a desktop, server and a palm pilot or PS/2.
This isn’t to say Linux and the GNU FSF doesn’t innovate. Linux 2.6 has revolutionised SMP in a number of ways, GCC is an excellent compiler as are lots of other pieces of GNU software.
I just hope that when we mention these improvements in driver support, we remember that it isn’t only Linux developers who make this great level of support possible.
Linux has had so much of a hard time handling so much different hardware that it is indeed getting really good at dealing with a lot of things in a very transparent way in hte hands of talented distro makers (Suse but also knoppix, mandrake) and it’s not only hardware.
I just bought a linksys ADSL Wireless router and both Mandrake 9.2 and Mac OS 10.2 were connected to the internet and each other (file and printer sharing using nfs and cups) very quickly, just because standard protocols (dhcp, IPP, nfs) are available. XP Home (dual booting with mandrake) Did not even spot there was a router and asserted that the network cable was disconnected….. The router comes with a windows CD, probably with a driver.
It is not windows that supports hardware well, but hardware vendors that make sure they gear works on 90% of machines.
Until Linux vendors federate to foster a generation of Linux supported hardware from manufacturers, it will be hit and miss. What is OSDL doing on that ? (just a question)
But the hit rate rises fast in any case.
And Xandros 2 is coming. It has both Crossover Office and Plugin included for 89 Dollars. Hope we can get a good review. I think its December 9?
SuSE 9.0 is vastly improved over 8.2, even though the two look very much alike – proof that looks are deceiving.
It detected and configured my winmodem, set up my graphics flawlessly (an S3 system, which had given 8.2 a lot of trouble). On the desktop, it’s just a very smooth-running product.
Now that SuSE has Novell behind them, they should be excited about their future.
How do you figure out that it’s made up? Do you have any proof or are you just trolling?
XBe
How is it more expensive? He already had the Windows software in the first place…
My, lots of anti-Linux postings on Linux stories these days…
I recently decided to try out Windows XP as I’ve been using Suse Linux as well as Debian pretty much since w2k came out.
I was surprised by how easy the setup of Windows was, I just put in the CD and booted. All HW autodected without any problems. Updating using Windows Update was very easy and having all the software I can imagine top of the line just some clicks away felt amazing.
I was also impressed by how cheap you can get away with using Windows and how smooth it felt to use it compared to both Suse and Debian. My box hasn’t been that fast and responsive before, especially not when working with media applications.
I think everyone should try to switch to Win XP to see how smooth it goes and how lovely it is to have all those games and powerful apps available…
I tried SuSE 9.0, sort of. Being in a research lab, we look for a replacement for our RedHat desktop. To test it, I dowloaded from the FTP server the full system 9.0. I burn the boot ISO. Then trouble starts !!!
As I did not buy it, no support (I understand that), but no documentation at all (I don’t understand that). I took me probably 10 times to find out the command line syntax to start a network install. Plus every major syntax error cause the installation to crash. Then it failed on finding the packages with the “media error”. Which I found later happend when server are too busy.
I tried a different day, a different hour… nothing.
As I downloaded the all directory, I tried to use my own ftp server locally. 10 attempts later to figure out that I needed to remove my gateway configuration for the installer to see my local network (!)… it started… and failed (permanent hanging during package phase again)..
So for me :
SuSE friendliness=0
SuSE help for potential new users=0
If SuSE is to replace RedHat as the major/reference Linux distro, they should seriously rethink their approach on how to attract new customers, and even if it’s not financially interesting, to ease the process on installation of their “free” version.
Now, downloading Mandrake 9.2 !!
I had a good laugh, thank.
Nice troll, explain this:
“My box hasn’t been that fast and responsive before, especially not when working with media applications.”
>> How did you have Groupwise installed on Linux? I tried
>> to install the Windows version on Crossover, but no
>> chance.
>> Did you use the Java-Version from Novell Beta?
We just used the Groupwise web-based client. It looked to
me like getting the Windows thick client to run under Linux would require too much work and take too much time.
It might be possible, but since the web client works just
fine, that solved the problem more quickly.
“My box hasn’t been that fast and responsive before, especially not when working with media applications.”
How can I launch an application? When I start XP, I get a black screen with a mouse cursor I can move, after some time a blue screen with “Windows XP” appears. I have waited ten minutes, and the computer was not crashed, as the mouse could still be moved. What button should I click to enter XP?
No, if possible no Windows for me. I have tried SuSE 8.2 in the past, and it worked quite well. Yes, I did mess it up when playing with LVM, but other than that, it worked smoothly, it worked plug-n-play, it worked fast.
You see… for me it’s very much about having a functional computer, not about being a GPL Zealot.
And after trying XP I was surprised just like I wrote about how well it worked. It’ll be a long time before I go back to Linux again as it is definitely loosing vs XP for so many reasons assuming that you don’t have problems with a commercial entity being behind it.
sure Linux is pretty okey, but now that I tried XP, thank you but no thank you…
The key to this whole article is this quote “But, for whatever reasons,….” You are going to have find reasons and do research to troubleshoot issues with any OS. Wasn’t it some *nix guru who coined RTFM?
The on board ethernet can be disabled in the network connections or the bios.
I have found USB flaky on all hardware and personally I would buy a firewire DVD burner. But, I wonder if they even took the time to look at HP’s site to see if the problem could be resolved.
Alot of these problems can be resolved by simpling looking in the event viewer, getting the related event id and searching google groups. But if you are pushing Linux I guess the best thing to do is to make your coworker learn a whole new OS.
I wonder what the admin at center thinks of his programmers installing new OS’s on thier coworkers PC’s?
With regards to your “no documentation”:
it’s there somewhere in your directory structure, look for ftp://ftp.nl.uu.net/pub/linux/suse/i386/9.0/suse/i586/suselinux-us…
and
ftp://ftp.nl.uu.net/pub/linux/suse/i386/9.0/suse/i586/suselinux-ad… (or equivalent addresses in one of the other mirrors)
these guides are available in german, english, spanish, italian and hungarian.
And on network installs, they have ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/current/README.FTP … not the greatest set of instructions, and I’ve never tried it, so I can’t judge its (in)completeness. (anyone?)
Too bad you couldn’t find them (I admit, they’re not somewhere intuitive like in the “docs” directory, and being packed inside an RPM isn’t the friendliest either, but they’re there, and they’re good
.
TimG is right, this had nothing to do with the OS. Usually the first thing I do with all the onboard junk is turn it off in the bios and install proper PCI cards. That would have probably solved all the conflicts. Usually a fresh reinstall is a sledgehammer approach and should be the last thing you should try.
What would have happened if the author had reinstalled Windows 2000? AFAIK maybe that would have corrected his tangled driver situation?
As pointed out in an earlier post, what did the user(s) actually think about the results? We know the author likes the author’s results and that’s about it.
The broad claims of this article are simply not supported in anything resembling a rigorous way. Its fine the the author likes Suse, etc. but IMO he is just dressing up his opinions as facts when he is just too lazy to do the dirty work needed to find out the true details.
Trying to beat down Windows based on drivers does not strike me as a reasonable strategy either.
Then the final “poor me” ending where the world just doesn’t understand the author’s genius was the final nail in the coffin IMO. Just my take.
You forget that you can use the Suse distribution on multiple machines without paying for extra licenses. He already bought it for his server, so it was pretty much free to install it on others.
That and lots of usable software that comes with the Linux distribution while you have to buy expensive software for Windows to do the same work.
I find it hard to believe that windows 2000 could not be tweaked on the drivers department.
The USB DVD drive is a different issue, HP doesn’t support backwards drivers too many times ( I have a parallel port printer that worked great on NT4 and was a pain to get it to work on windows 2000, still doesn’t work well). That’s not Microsoft fault it’s HP’s.
I’ve had cases where onboard hardware wouldn’t work for windows, and it would in linux. In fact, my processor would not work in windows (athlon xp 2600, windows XP). Linux would run on this with no problems. I can’t explain it, but it is true.
Although i do not work in a lab, but…
Did u ever hear of pymol?
I found it a great tool to model molecules for graphics purposes.
It uses python as language, and it is opensource and multiplatform.
Your troll might be more witty if it contained more facts and fewer falsehoods.
“Updating using Windows Update was very easy…”
Last time I did an XP installation it nearly an hour to install all of the updates. And that doesn’t take into account the inconvenience of having to reboot the machine (I can’t remember offhand how many times). Not to mention the number of known and published IE holes left unfixed by those updates.
“…and having all the software I can imagine top of the line just some clicks away felt amazing.”
Top of the line software for Windows available just some clicks away? For how much money, and how many forms did you have to enter your credit card number into? Don’t get me wrong — there’s obviously a lot of extraordinarily good software available that runs under Windows; but “some clicks away?” Gimme a break.
“I was also impressed by how cheap you can get away with using Windows…”
Sure, if you pirate the OS and use all-pirated software, or don’t run anything decent on it.
“and how smooth it felt to use it compared to both Suse and Debian. My box hasn’t been that fast and responsive before, especially not when working with media applications.”
Well, score 1 for the troll. It’s true that it takes a little bit of work and know-how to make a Linux installation incredibly fast and responsive. That’s why it isn’t ready for the desktop, right? I’m sure it won’t be until a brain-damaged ostrich can install drivers by pecking on the keyboard…oh, wait, that doesn’t work in Windows either? Using a computer effectively requires intelligence and study; always has, always will. Get over it.
“I wonder what the admin at center thinks of his programmers installing new OS’s on thier coworkers PC’s?”
Good comment. However, no one is installing new operating systems at the place — the “story” is made up.
You have been trolled. Just let it die.
As I said before, there’s quite a bit of anti-Linux trolling, as well as some MS Astroturfing, going on today.
That’s a good sign. It means that MS is really worried about Linux, and that anti-Linux advocates feel threatened. So they double their efforts. Not gonna work, though.
> Your troll might be more witty if it contained more facts and fewer falsehoods.
Lets just see how many “falsehoods” were given
> “Updating using Windows Update was very easy…”
> Last time I did an XP installation it nearly an hour to install all of the updates. And that doesn’t take into account the inconvenience of having to reboot the machine (I can’t remember offhand how many times). Not to mention the number of known and published IE holes left unfixed by those updates.
Just because there are many patches, does not make installing them any harder. The original post was that it is easy to update with Windows Update.
> “…and having all the software I can imagine top of the line just some clicks away felt amazing.”
> Top of the line software for Windows available just some clicks away? For how much money, and how many forms did you have to enter your credit card number into?
Just go to your local store and buy the top-of-the-line software. End of story.
> Don’t get me wrong — there’s obviously a lot of extraordinarily good software available that runs under Windows; but “some clicks away?” Gimme a break.
Once you have the cd, it is clicks away. Or you can just download it and it is clicks away. Either way, no hoping there is a package for your distro, no dependecy issues, no compiling. It just works.
> “I was also impressed by how cheap you can get away with using Windows…”
> Sure, if you pirate the OS and use all-pirated software, or don’t run anything decent on it.
Don’t forget there is tons of OSS available for Windows too. No pirating of software needed. An I persoanlly have no problem paying for a product that I use.
> “and how smooth it felt to use it compared to both Suse and Debian. My box hasn’t been that fast and responsive before, especially not when working with media applications.”
> Well, score 1 for the troll. It’s true that it takes a little bit of work and know-how to make a Linux installation incredibly fast and responsive. That’s why it isn’t ready for the desktop, right?
Not really.
> I’m sure it won’t be until a brain-damaged ostrich can install drivers by pecking on the keyboard…
Exactly.
> oh, wait, that doesn’t work in Windows either?
In most cases it does work on Windows.
> Using a computer effectively requires intelligence and study; always has, always will. Get over it.
This is a great example of the beloved Linux community. Also an example of why Linux will not be more then a “geek” os.
Fair enough. Most times I don’t let it get under my skin, and quite often I read criticisms of Linux and think “wow, that’s a really good point,” and sometimes what I read changes my mind about things. It’s when misleading and false criticisms start rolling in that I have a difficult time keeping my mouth shut. More’s the shame for me I suppose.
“As I said before, there’s quite a bit of anti-Linux trolling, as well as some MS Astroturfing, going on today.
That’s a good sign. It means that MS is really worried about Linux, and that anti-Linux advocates feel threatened.”
If this is the case I guess the inverse is true? As in:
As I said before, there’s quite a bit of anti-Microsoft trolling, as well as some Linux Astroturfing, going on today.
That’s a good sign. It means that Linux advocates are really worried about Longhorn, and that anti-Microsoft advocates feel threatened.
“oh, wait, that doesn’t work in Windows either?”
In most cases it does work on Windows.
Do you realize that you’ve just argued that an ostrich can install a driver by pecking at the keyboard?
Regarding the Windows Update thing: a problem that no one addresses is that, after patching a vanilla Windows XP install with all the security updates and patches, a lot of users have noted a noticeable decrease in performance. This is a variant what I call “Windows decay” – the gradual degradation of Windows installations over time. So basically MS is giving you two choices: having a secure box, or a responsive one…well, with Linux I can have both – and I support a vast collectivity of individuals, not the stockholders of a vast monopoly that hungers for domination and threatens innovation.
The choice is simple, really.
“a problem that no one addresses is that, after patching a vanilla Windows XP install with all the security updates and patches, a lot of users have noted a noticeable decrease in performance. This is a variant what I call “Windows decay” – the gradual degradation of Windows installations over time.”
Please point to some factual evidence of this.
> Do you realize that you’ve just argued that an ostrich can install a driver by pecking at the keyboard?
Yes.. in most cases, a driver install is as easy as double-click, next, next, next… That is it.
> Regarding the Windows Update thing: a problem that no one addresses is that, after patching a vanilla Windows XP install with all the security updates and patches, a lot of users have noted a noticeable decrease in performance. This is a variant what I call “Windows decay” – the gradual degradation of Windows installations over time.
This was true for Windows 9x. Not with XP.
> So basically MS is giving you two choices: having a secure box, or a responsive one…well, with Linux I can have both –
Same with XP.
> and I support a vast collectivity of individuals, not the stockholders of a vast monopoly that hungers for domination and threatens innovation.
Good for you, I support a OS that just works. Windows XP provides that. No other OS (for x86 hardware) does.
I don’t pick an OS based on some idealistic views of how the industry works. I just want to use my computer to its greatest potential.
> The choice is simple, really.
Indeed it is.
“Just because there are many patches, does not make installing them any harder. The original post was that it is easy to update with Windows Update.”
Hard is relative. Rebooting a machine over and over again is a lot harder than typing ‘apt-get upgrade’ or ‘yum update’. It also takes a lot longer.
“Just go to your local store and buy the top-of-the-line software. End of story…Once you have the cd, it is clicks away. Or you can just download it and it is clicks away.”
Once you have the cd, it is clicks away? Do you really need to stretch the post I was responding to _that_far_ in order to “defeat” an argument I wasn’t making?
“Don’t forget there is tons of OSS available for Windows too.”
Very true.
“An I persoanlly have no problem paying for a product that I use.”
Nor do I. But the sheer amount of good software available free of cost for Linux means you can do more with less money.
“In most cases it does work on Windows.”
Depends on the hardware, and good luck solving the problem when it doesn’t. It can be a nightmare.
“This is a great example of the beloved Linux community. Also an example of why Linux will not be more then a “geek” os.”
Actually, this is equally applicable to every OS I’ve ever seen. Most of the Windows users I know are non-proficient, and whenever anything goes wrong, they whine to a friend (often me) or spend hours on the phone with tech support. And the worst thing about it is, they generally can’t even tell you anything useful about what the problem is. “My AOL is broken, help…” and “Why does Comcast keep making my computer restart” (gotta love those worms) come to mind. Computers run well when used by people who know what they’re doing; this has nothing to do with “geeks” — it’s just a fact of life.
> Hard is relative. Rebooting a machine over and over again is a lot harder than typing ‘apt-get upgrade’ or ‘yum update’. It also takes a lot longer.
Right, hard is relative, and no matter how easy it is with apt, Windows Update is still easy.
> Once you have the cd, it is clicks away? Do you really need to stretch the post I was responding to _that_far_ in order to “defeat” an argument I wasn’t making?
You said and how many web forms do you need to put in your credit card number. I said, go to a store and buy it. Is that too hard for you. The truth is most people prefer this way. Same reason online shopping has not taken over the world. Also, plenty of free software for Windows that is downloadable.
> Nor do I. But the sheer amount of good software available free of cost for Linux means you can do more with less money.
Free software available for Windows too.
> Depends on the hardware, and good luck solving the problem when it doesn’t. It can be a nightmare.
And good luck getting some hardware working at all on Linux. The bottom line is that MORE x86 commercial works on Windows, works easily, and can use the full abilities of the hardware.
> Actually, this is equally applicable to every OS I’ve ever seen. Most of the Windows users I know are non-proficient, and whenever anything goes wrong, they whine to a friend (often me) or spend hours on the phone with tech support. And the worst thing about it is, they generally can’t even tell you anything useful about what the problem is. “My AOL is broken, help…” and “Why does Comcast keep making my computer restart” (gotta love those worms) come to mind.
I have heard these same problems. I could not imagine what these same people would say with Linux or how many more problems they would have.
> Computers run well when used by people who know what they’re doing; this has nothing to do with “geeks” — it’s just a fact of life.
Can an OS be used if you do not know what you are doing? Windows tries to be. If the Linux community thought like you, then Linux can not.
Cheers Psycosis, It’s great to see someone who understands my view (the original poster) of the topic that switching from Linux to XP is an awesome move.
I also note that many probably just like myself just hasn’t given XP a chance, I did and I like it.
What is dispicable is really though how so much childness stuff is being aimed at me. Instead of trying to understand, everything that isn’t pro Linux is either FUD, trolling or whatever.
But to be frank, are goblins those who use computers to have fun and also do other things or the Linux geeks locked in their basements who have trouble being in the Sun because their eyes ain’t used to it?
Ehrm… Troll? Goblin? Call them whatever you like, but this hatred stuff sort of bugging me a bit. I like Linux too, just that I must admit that XP owns in many areas, just like BSD outperforms Linux serverwise most of the times..
Linux Astroturfing
Do you believe there is such a thing, that Linux companies have enough money to pay people to make fake rave reviews, to create fake “grassroots movements”, to pollute Web discussion boards with FUD? Gee, the Linux companies must be richer than I thought!
So far, only one company has been caught Astroturfing red-handed, and that was Microsoft, back in the anti-trust trial.
Do you even know what astroturfing means?
Please point to some factual evidence of [XP Decay]
Actually, it was first brought up in a John C. Dvorak (not exactly a Linux advocate) article, and corroborated by numerous posters in the forums. Curious, I tested it myself, and it’s true: an unpatched XP machine does feel quite faster. I suggest everyone to give it a try themselves instead of taking my word for it. The difference is quite apparent (Athlon 900MHz, 512MB of memory).
pyscosis
“Do you realize that you’ve just argued that an ostrich can install a driver by pecking at the keyboard?”
Yes.. in most cases, a driver install is as easy as double-click, next, next, next… That is it.
I doubt the ostrich would double-click (that’s not on the keyboard) or that she would even get the return key. So, no, an ostrich cannot install a driver in Windows (or Linux). I can’t believe you’re even arguing that point.
Psycosis, indeed.
This was true for Windows 9x. Not with XP.
See response to Bill Sykes above.
Good for you, I support a OS that just works. Windows XP provides that. No other OS (for x86 hardware) does.
Actually, Linux works just as well as XP, if not better (especially after security upgrades). So it’s not just a political choice, it’s a practical choice as well. Linux wins on both counts.
I don’t pick an OS based on some idealistic views of how the industry works.
So you have no troubles supporting a predatory monopoly?
I just want to use my computer to its greatest potential.
That’s the best reason one can give to use Linux instead of Windows.
> I doubt the ostrich would double-click (that’s not on the keyboard) or that she would even get the return key. So, no, an ostrich cannot install a driver in Windows (or Linux). I can’t believe you’re even arguing that point.
> Psycosis, indeed.
I am sorry that I figured you were being literal with the ostrich. I was just saying that hitting enter a bunch of times will install the driver. That is all.
> Actually, Linux works just as well as XP, if not better (especially after security upgrades). So it’s not just a political choice, it’s a practical choice as well. Linux wins on both counts.
Linux does not just work. There is tons of hardware you can buy today that does not fully work or work at all.
> So you have no troubles supporting a predatory monopoly?
If it gets the job done, yes.
> That’s the best reason one can give to use Linux instead of Windows.
Again, until all hardware works, it is not at its optimum use.
My, lots of anti-Linux postings on Linux stories these days…
That’s a good sign. It means that MS is really worried about Linux, and that anti-Linux advocates feel threatened. So they double their efforts. Not gonna work, though.
I imagine that we’ll start to see an anti-Linux backlash. Linux will have to prove itself a contender rather than a pretender. It hasn’t yet.
I would have thought that I would use Linux full-time by now, but it hasn’t happened.
I use Panther full time and XP on occasion. Nowadays, I download a new linux distro, find that it’s improved, but still not as good as the competition. It gets wiped from the drive shortly after.
As a desktop, I just don’t see Linux catching up to XP, let alone OS X.
I am sorry that I figured you were being literal with the ostrich.
I was merely pointing out that the way that you answered the original poster indicated that you did believe an ostrich could install a driver.
By the way, installing drivers in Linux is usually not necessary, because they are very often already in the kernel.
Linux does not just work.
In most cases, yes.
There is tons of hardware you can buy today that does not fully work or work at all.
That’s an exaggeration. The vast majority of hardware works with modern Linux distros.
Again, until all hardware works, it is not at its optimum use.
Again, this is being dishonest. It only needs to work with the hardware one has. If your PC has hardware that is not supported with Linux (of which there is less and less), then Windows may be a better solution. If all of your hardware is supported with Linux (and that is increasingly the case), then Linux is a better solution as it give you more (i.e. “optimal”) control over your PC.
So, following your logic, if all hardware on your PC works under Linux, then Linux is a better choice than Windows. Since more and more hardware is supported by Linux (still following your logic), then Linux is increasingly a better choice than Windows…
As for supporting a monopoly, well, I’d say you’re just too narrow-minded to understand the economic and political implications. It’s your choice – some of us are just a bit more lucid about MS’s impact on the IT industry.
In most cases, yes.
What I meant, of course, is that in most cases (the overwhelming majority, might I add) Linux does “just work.”
The astroturfers are stirring up – Linux is gaining momentum!
> I was merely pointing out that the way that you answered the original poster indicated that you did believe an ostrich could install a driver.
The point is the same. Driver install is easy.
> By the way, installing drivers in Linux is usually not necessary, because they are very often already in the kernel.
But it is often much more complicated.
> In most cases, yes.
But not all. Not nearly as many cases as Windows.
> That’s an exaggeration. The vast majority of hardware works with modern Linux distros.
Majoirty, yes, but still tons that does not work fully.
> Again, this is being dishonest. It only needs to work with the hardware one has.
What about hardware in the future. They may be forced in not getting something new since it is not support under Linux. Not optimal.
> If your PC has hardware that is not supported with Linux (of which there is less and less), then Windows may be a better solution.
Yup.
> If all of your hardware is supported with Linux (and that is increasingly the case), then Linux is a better solution as it give you more (i.e. “optimal”) control over your PC.
Again, what about future hardware.
> So, following your logic, if all hardware on your PC works under Linux, then Linux is a better choice than Windows.
Not exactly. That is one of the problems and that would make Linux acceptable to MANY more people, but still not the average user.
> Since more and more hardware is supported by Linux (still following your logic), then Linux is increasingly a better choice than Windows…
Nope… since more hardware is supported, it is closer to being competitive to Windows, but not there yet.
> As for supporting a monopoly, well, I’d say you’re just too narrow-minded to understand the economic and political implications.
Now you just jump to conclusions.
> It’s your choice – some of us are just a bit more lucid about MS’s impact on the IT industry.
IT industry or home computing? Two totally different things. Microsoft monopoly within the home computing market is not an issue to me. I personally do not like or support som of their business strategies with regards to enterprise, but that was never what I was taking about.
“””
What about hardware in the future. They may be forced in not getting something new since it is not support under Linux. Not optimal.
“””
Ironic that you should say this, as most hardware vendors only release Windows drivers for the current version of Windows whenever they release their hardware. So, once Longhorn gets released, do you think all the scanner, webcam, and printer manufacturers out there are going to start releasing XP drivers with their new hardware? Not a chance, they’ll release Longhorn drivers and if you want to use your shiny new hardware you’ll just have to PAY to upgrade your OS. Bummer.
And having done *that*, you’ll probably find that some of your older peripherals are *no longer supported* by their manufacturers, so you’ll have to go out and replace *them* with new versions that are compatible with Longhorn. Lucky you.