Without tip-toeing around the matter, Linus Torvalds made his preference in the GNOME vs. KDE matter quite clear on the GNOME-usability list: “I personally just encourage people to switch to KDE. This ‘users are idiots, and are confused by functionality’ mentality of Gnome is a disease. If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will use it. I don’t use Gnome, because in striving to be simple, it has long since reached the point where it simply doesn’t do what I need it to do. Please, just tell people to use KDE.” Also, “Gnome seems to be developed by interface nazis, where consistently the excuse for not doing something is not ‘it’s too complicated to do’, but ‘it would confuse users’.” Update: More of the discussion here.
Swearing, references to the nazis, “Please, just tell people to use <a free software project before another free software project>” and misspellings?
Was he drunk, or is this an imposter? It’s certainly not the Linus that I’ve come to know in the news.
Then you don’t know Linus
That’s his style.
This is on a mailing list on the OSDL. This is not a news release. This is Linus being natural, for better or for worse. This is a guy who has a lot of contact within the community and sees more of a project then most of us on here so I think his frustration with the “progress” of GNOME is spilling over a bit. FTR, I use GNOME primarily but I can relate to some of his misgivings.
> Was he drunk, or is this an imposter?
If he was not drunk, he should be!
> It’s certainly not the Linus that I’ve come to know in the news.
But it’s the good ol’ Linus I’ve been reading in the last 6 or 7 years. A kind of reversed Eugenia, if you will… works the same way, but he defends the righteous points of view 😉
doL-b
I still prefer Gnome interface to KDE.
I also prefer Gnome Interface and simplicity to some extent, but dude i also think they’re going just too far. As for KDE, sorry but I simply hate moving from a neat Applications menu to a long list of i-dont-know-what-the-hell-this-is-here-for-or-if-i-will-ever-use-it items. OH and not to mention that the tool bars are also too populated.
linus torvalds ate my balls!
I can’t believe he said that! Surely, he deserves the ‘Troll of the year’ award. OSNEWS trolls just can’t beat him no matter how hard they try!
Surely, he deserves the ‘Troll of the year’ award.
Yeah, that’s really easy to say, without answering directly his claims. Yeah, it is a “strong” opinion … or is it?
And when I tell people that, they tend to nod, and have some story of
their own why they had a feature they used to use, but it was removed
because it might have been confusing.
I have a very similar experience – am I troll now? Is an input field in the file dialog really that confusing? Is navigation mode really that confusing (I know it’s there, but the default was changed arbitrarily imho)? Is $insert_functionality_here really that confusing?
I understand that such an opinin will undoubtedly lead to flame wars, but is this really his fault? If you really take a step back and look at it – well, it is an opinion, nothing more, nothing less, and the validity of his claims can be disputed or agreed with. That is, it is not just an offhand remark, it is an experience that many share.
This is so typical: criticize GNOME – you are labeled a troll, even if you are Linus. Even better: get modded up because you labeled someone critical of GNOME a troll. Way to go folks.
This is so typical: criticize GNOME – you are labeled a troll, even if you are Linus. Even better: get modded up because you labeled someone critical of GNOME a troll. Way to go folks.
Well, calling GNOME developers f–king idiots and interface nazis, no matter the opinion, is totally insulting and trollish. Now, if he didn’t stick to insults and such, it wouldn’t be easy to label as a troll.
I think you need to read those emails again. He’s saying that GNOME is treating their users as idiots, not that their developers are idiots. I can’t really see why anybody modded you up for that. If they actually read TFA, that is…
He’s saying that gnome is developed for idiots which is basicly the same thing as saying “if you like gnome you are an idiot”.
So this is pure trolling. The “interface nazis” stuff too. I really had higher thoughts of Linus.
>>He’s saying that gnome is developed for idiots which is basicly the same thing as saying “if you like gnome you are an idiot”.
No it’s not. Anyway Linus Is entitled to an opinion – we all are – even trolls
Well, I would tend to disagree with you. Though this has probably been over-analyzed a gazillion times, which is a lot, I believe that his point was that they’re dumbing it down in order for complete idiots to be able to use it. Though these are less than diplomatic terms, I guess he’s trying to get across is that he’s sick of them removing and refusing to implement features that are needed, all in the name of “useability”.
Also, would I be correct in saying that you believe that “if gnome is developed for newbies, then you are also a newbie if you like it”? It seems that you are just trying to cry foul just because you disagree with him…
Also, I personally take the term “interface nazi” about as harshly as “soup nazi” or “grammar nazi”. I.e. not at all. If you take offense to such phrases, I suggest you stay away from mainstream media, Usenet, Slashdot, OSnews, and any other venue in which discussions are taking place.
Well said that.
Surely, he deserves the ‘Troll of the year’ award.
Yeah, that’s really easy to say, without answering directly his claims. Yeah, it is a “strong” opinion … or is it?
Its easy to say so not because what he said, but how he said so! I personally have a lot of gripes with the GNOME interface and I prefer KDE over GNOME any day unless they get their interface issues sorted out. But calling them ‘Interface Nazis’ is crap! He is a troll not for pointing out the issues but for the way he expressed his opinion!
This is so typical: criticize GNOME – you are labeled a troll, even if you are Linus.
Again, since it comes from a well- known figure [atleast in the geek circles] , it is expected that he won’t put it this way! Criticism is good but there is a way to go about it! You can’t just childishly call anyone a ‘Nazi’ specially when you are Linus yourself!
> He is a troll not for pointing out the issues but for the way he expressed his opinion!
Uhm, if the GNOME people don’t know the issues by now then something seriously must have been wrong. There was and still is so much noise around GNOME that by now everyone knows what’s wrong with it. Everyone knows except those developing GNOME.
But calling them ‘Interface Nazis’ is crap!
Sometimes you have to do it the rough way. It doesn’t make you a troll. It only makes you responsible. And they fcuking are Interface Nazis.
He is a troll not for pointing out the issues but for the way he expressed his opinion!
Noo.. He’s being a responsible person and acting as such. There are certain drawbacks with Gnome, and it’s getting worse for each version, so somebody MUST put an end to that part of the show.
Hopefully it did so.
> Noo.. He’s being a responsible person and acting
> as such.
Yes… Defend your idol and god. We know. Torvalds is a god. So even when he steps out of line he is behaving responsibly. Because Torvalds is a god who can do no wrong.
Give me a break. He is acting like an immature child. Stop defending his behavior just cause you put him on a god podium and worship the ground he walks on.
I haven’t put him on a podium and definitely don’t consider him a god.
There is only one God and it’s not Linux or any other man, nor anything Saudi-related.
I don’t see what he’s doing wrong here. He is using big words but they describe his opinion well, and he is coming with examples of things he’s got an issue with.
No trolling there, no flaming there. Just another argument, and an interesting one too.
Look at Jeff Waugh who admits that Gnome has gone too far, leaving the power users behind. Exactly what Linus is complaining about.
But it took Linus to get Gnome-devs to admit it.
> There is only one God
There is no god. Don’t start a religious debate with me. I will destroy you with academic knowledge on the subject given that I have degrees in both evolutionary biology, and ancient near eastern history.
And Linus is acting like an immature child. There is no way in hell you can defend his responses as “responsible” with his cursing and capital letters and the fact that he doesn’t even understand what a logical falacy argument is.
There is a God.
I’m ready every day to do battle against any jerk considering himself better than me, because he got a nice title.
You aren’t beating me (oops, destroying me) with academic knowledge, when academic knowledge is my greatest asset. To me it simply sounds like you are bragging.
And your attitude is childish, and not at all good for a debate.
Evolutionary biology has nothing to do with the question “Is there a god?”
Linus responded just like every person would when they discover something screwed up. Of course a self appointed academic jackass like you (who feels like you are a better human being), can’t handle that some persons are using strong words in regard to issues they are passionate about.
Go away and force your technocracy on somebody else.
The existance of God can neither be proven or disproved. Belief in God requires faith for a reason.
I agree that it cannot be proven or disproved. I’m not sure about what you mean with the last part, but I think I agree with you, if my translation is right.
read the f–king article or shut up. there is no “cursing and capital letters”.
“read the f–king article or shut up. there is no “cursing and capital letters”.”
You must be reading the wrong one then.
http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/00…
“f–kING IDIOT” would seem to be both in capital letters and contain cursing.
Latter he also said :
> yeah, I didn’t realize that this was a public mailing
> list or I might have been more polite. Or maybe I
> wouldn’t have.
Sorry dude, but it didn’t take Linus saying it to make GNOME developers admit it. When I said that in some cases, GNOME has gone too far, I specifically referenced my talk at GUADEC this year. Watch the video. Listen carefully. We mature enough to know where our problems lie, thanks.
Hi Jeff.
Nice to know you can admit going too far at least. I’m still annoyed with losing my fine grained control with mime-types. It was removed in 2.8 and it’s quite difficult to learn the new Windows 2000 like approach used in Gnome2.8 and higher, when you’ve been used to other way for many many years.
I hope to see Gnome going backwards in the next releases – or at least adding some hints here and there about the more hidden elements, like typing in a file dialogue
I haven’t put him on a podium and definitely don’t consider him a god.
There is only one God and it’s not Linux or any other man, nor anything Saudi-related.
Heheh….quote of the week
– and yes, Linus’s appearance on the list will make some GNOME devs reflect on their current direction.
Haven’t you learned by now, that there are only 2 unfallible people in the world? The pope and Linus Torvalds!
There is only one difference. You don’t get burnt on the pyre anymore for critizizing the pope. I’m not so sure about questioning Linus…
I’ve always used GNOME, but I have to admit that the annoying lack of the “Advanced” tab on most dialogs is something that ought to be addressed to allow power users to get on with the software.
Prepare for the biggest Gnome-vs-KDE flamewar ever !
I gotta leave my comment on this one. 🙂
This sort of childish and down-right idiotic remark will forever make the Free Unix systems blighted if we allow them to dominate our thoughts. Simplicty, usability and not every-fuction-we-can-think-of makes Windows and commercial systems great incredibly popular.
Linus is a geek and a kernel developer – he is not an end user and I really think he needs to sit back and re-evaluate the world of free software. Too many recent problems (BitKeeper, Australia trademarks, and now this) keep blighting his reputation and cause storms of problems.
We do need to be focusing on usability and ease-of-use, and it’s wrong of Linus, who is but the lead developer of just ONE of the free kernels to abuse his often-heard voice to attack a leading platform.
So, Windows is designed with simplicity, usability and lacks feature bloat? Have you ever actually used windows? Have you been looking for that list of services lately in the configuration panel? Have you seen the ‘options’ dialog of MS Word (2000 is the latest version I own, like millions of others)? You are completely delusional if you ascribe microsoft’s success to their efforts in usability.
True, Windows in places, can be difficult too. But it has a consistent, usable interface and it’s not bloated to the eye – it is bloated yes – but not to the eye.
Secondly, Word is not exactly GNOME, is it? Open Office is just as complex as Word, I grant you, but we’re comparing the desktop, not the office suite or even the configuration system.
“But it has a consistent, usable interface and it’s not bloated to the eye – it is bloated yes – but not to the eye.”
I urge you to start DivX Player, Quicktime Player, MS Mediaplayer, WinAmp, Photoshop and CMD.exe.
By no stretch of the imagination are you know presented with a coherent and consistent interface.
I urge you to start DivX Player, Quicktime Player, MS Mediaplayer, WinAmp, Photoshop and CMD.exe. By no stretch of the imagination are you know presented with a coherent and consistent interface.
I urge you to start xdvi, k3b, emacs and bash. This shows that Gnome is clearly even more incoherent and inconsistent…
WMP is the only app you listed where MS is responsible for the UI (well cmd.exe but I assume that was a joke). Even MacOS X has its share of apps defying all HIGs and that despite the fact that Apple puts a lot more emphasized on enforcing them.
“I urge you to start xdvi, k3b, emacs and bash.”
Those arent GNOME applications and you’re missing the point. The point is that Windows isnt as consistent as people want to make it out to be.
“(well cmd.exe but I assume that was a joke)”
Not at all and I wasnt referring to how you use cmd.exe but how the window looks different (on XP) and how cut-and-paste works different etc.
Those arent GNOME applications and you’re missing the point. The point is that Windows isnt as consistent as people want to make it out to be.
They are just as much Gnome applications as e.g. Winamp is a Windows application. MS didn’t program Winamp, it doesn’t ship it, Winamp is just an app that runs on Windows. You can say the same thing about k3b.
Not at all and I wasnt referring to how you use cmd.exe but how the window looks different (on XP) and how cut-and-paste works different etc.
The whole point behind cmd.exe is to provide a different UI. The difference in the way c&p works results from the requirements of a CLI (i.e. you don’t want to rob the cli of all that keybindings, especially as there are lots of legacy apps that expect those keys). Similar for many of the other differences.
“They are just as much Gnome applications as e.g. Winamp is a Windows application.”
Nope. They are X applications, not GNOME applications.
WinAmp is a Windows application wether MS made it or not.
“The whole point behind cmd.exe is to provide a different UI.”
Uh hu. Explain how the totally different Window decor makes sense.
“The difference in the way c&p works results from the requirements of a CLI (i.e. you don’t want to rob the cli of all that keybindings, especially as there are lots of legacy apps that expect those keys).”
Because a lot of people runs textmode legacy apps in cmd.exe in 2005, especially with the “awesome” DOS compatibility in XP….
Either way, it is still an inconsistency and the fact of the matter is that Windows isnt as consistent as is generally touted.
“They are just as much Gnome applications as e.g. Winamp is a Windows application.”
Nope. They are X applications, not GNOME applications. WinAmp is a Windows application wether MS made it or not.
You really lost it, didn’t you?
Ok, “Gnome applications” are more consistent than “Windows applications” but “Windows Explorer” is more consistent than “Gnome applications”. I really don’t see why Winamp should be inherently the fault of MS when xdvi isn’t the fault of Gnome developers. In both cases the named party had nothing to do with the program in question.
Uh hu. Explain how the totally different Window decor makes sense.
? I use classic mode and it uses the same window decorations as any other app. Perhaps it’s different in Loony err Luna.
Because a lot of people runs textmode legacy apps in cmd.exe in 2005, especially with the “awesome” DOS compatibility in XP….
If you can’t handle the different interface required by some aspects of a CLI you’re definitely not in the target group for a CLI. Does gterm bind Ctrl+C to copy?
“I really don’t see why Winamp should be inherently the fault of MS when xdvi isn’t the fault of Gnome developers.”
Who is talking about Microsoft? I’m talking about Windows, the platform, and I am stating that it is not as consistent as is commonly said, regardless of the flaws in GNOME, KDE or whatever.
“I use classic mode and it uses the same window decorations as any other app. Perhaps it’s different in Loony err Luna.”
Aha, yes, it’s different. cmd.exe will ALWAYS use the classic decor.
“If you can’t handle the different interface required by some aspects of a CLI you’re definitely not in the target group for a CLI”
I use CLI all the time and in GNOME (and KDE and xterm etc etc) cut-n-paste is done exactly the same way as in any other app: middle-click. Now, I can certainly understand why Ctrl+C isnt used for copy in a terminal but, and correct me if i am wrong, there is NO keyboard shortcut at all for copy in cmd.exe.
Anyway, cmd.exe was just one of the examples so lets not get all hung up on it.
I’m talking about Windows, the platform, and I am stating that it is not as consistent as is commonly said, regardless of the flaws in GNOME, KDE or whatever.
It becomes definitly less consistent when you start adding 3rd party programs. Just as Mac OS or Gnome. MS has no control over this short of including a test suite that declines to run non-standards-compliant software. It’s inevitable.
Aha, yes, it’s different. cmd.exe will ALWAYS use the classic decor.
I have yet to meet one person who’s computer-savy enough to use cmd.exe but not enough to switch to classic.
I use CLI all the time and in GNOME (and KDE and xterm etc etc) cut-n-paste is done exactly the same way as in any other app: middle-click.
The selection buffer is only one way of c&p. There’s also the clipboard. So gterm disables one way of c&p but not the other, very inconsistent.
Now, I can certainly understand why Ctrl+C isnt used for copy in a terminal but, and correct me if i am wrong, there is NO keyboard shortcut at all for copy in cmd.exe.
Ctrl+C, you have to switch to mark mode first. I don’t know if there’s a way to do that with a shortcut but I think so because I sometimes do it accidentially (I’m mostly a Linux user, my knowledge of the intricacies of Windows is rather spotty)
Anyway, cmd.exe was just one of the examples so lets not get all hung up on it.
erm, *I* thought it was a joke because a terminal will always be different from other GUI apps.
“Just as Mac OS or Gnome. MS has no control over this short of including a test suite that declines to run non-standards-compliant software. It’s inevitable. ”
Indeed but those inconsistencies still exist and does affect the user experience.
“I have yet to meet one person who’s computer-savy enough to use cmd.exe but not enough to switch to classic. ”
Sure, but that’s not the point. I use classic too the few times I’m forced to use XP.
“So gterm disables one way of c&p but not the other, very inconsistent. ”
No, it uses Chift-Ctrl-C etc, it’s just that I dont ever use it. In fact, I dont even use gnome-terminal.
Indeed but those inconsistencies still exist and does affect the user experience.
Yes, but they’re inherent to all DEs so they don’t affect any relative advantage Windows may have over Linux.
Sure, but that’s not the point.
In the case of an expert program, like a terminal, it makes no difference.
“So gterm disables one way of c&p but not the other, very inconsistent.”
No, it uses Chift-Ctrl-C
So, it’s not inconsistent not only despite but because it uses a different shortcut?
BTW. I don’t have a osnews account (you probably guessed as much) and I’m not really familiar with the ratings system but why are your postings immidiatly modded up one point? I could understand it for the first few postings (actually I didn’t because you were wrong of course =) but these last few of both of us are just useless discussions about obscure parts of cmd.exe so either you’ve got a fan club or someone really has too much time and modpoints.
“In the case of an expert program, like a terminal, it makes no difference.”
You could say the same about xdvi from your example.
“In the case of an expert program, like a terminal, it makes no difference.”
Heh, my bad. I ment it’s not inconsistent for *me* since I use the same method, middle-click, in all terminals and yes, it is an inconstency.
“BTW. I don’t have a osnews account (you probably guessed as much) and I’m not really familiar with the ratings system but why are your postings immidiatly modded up one point? ”
IIRC, all posts from registered users starts with +1.
MS has no control over this short of including a test suite that declines to run non-standards-compliant software. It’s inevitable.
No it’s not. There are things called HIG.
Gnome apps, even when not following the HIG, integrate in Gnome. Windows apps do not.
Even Microsoft apps do not integrate well with Windows.
I have yet to meet one person who’s computer-savy enough to use cmd.exe but not enough to switch to classic
So now you admit that it is not integrated with Windows. And yet it comes with it. So you were wrong.
So gterm disables one way of c&p but not the other, very inconsistent.
Wrong again. Ctrl+C is standard to sigterm (I think) a process in a shell, so it’s very consistent with the shell. When you use the shell, it takes precedence other the GUI, and you can STILL cut & paste.
gterm does not disable anything, shortcuts for cut & paste are still there, but different, which is a necessity, as it clashes with the shell.
Winamp is a Windows application. Winamp cannot run on other platforms that Windows.
However, Winamp isn’t a Microsoft program, but it’s still a Windows program.
Honestly, this is something everybody knows.
If you cannot see the difference, then OSN isn’t the place for you.
No, they are not as much Gnome applications as Winamp is a Windows application.
They are however as much Gnome applications as Winamp is a Microsoft application, but none has said Winamp is a Microsoft application. Only you has blended being coded for Windows with as being coded by Microsoft.
Look at Totem if you want to see the Gnome media player.
And compare it to WMP written for Windows by Microsoft.
Result: Gnome is consistent – Windows is inconsistent – EVEN for programs coming from Microsoft.
Look at Gaim in Gnome, look at MSN in Windows.
Result: Gnome is consistent – Windows is inconsistent – EVEN for programs coming from Microsoft.
KDE is consistent here as well, for its own applications.
People might think that Windows is consistent, usable and bloated, because they have been using it for years. If you put a unexperienced user behind windows he/she will find it inconsistent and confusing. Examples: Why double-click on desktop-icons, but single-click in de start menu? Why should you change screen settings by right clicking on the desktop, but for all other settings I need the configuration panel?
Especially double-clicking is a terrible MS invention, but no one realizes how terrible it is. If you don’t have the gymnastic skills for it, you will be dragging your desktop icons a few inches instead of double-clicking it. I’ve seen elder users having this problem. They still can type a letter and print it, they just need some help actually starting Word.
I’m not saying KDE or GNOME is any more usable, I am just sick and tired of people thinking Windows is the holy grail of usability DE should strive for. I’ve never used mac OS X intensively, but I seriously doubt it is the true holy grail of usability.
Find me an unexperienced user of computers, one who has never seen a beige box, keyboard, mice, monitor etc. Put this person in front of a computer. How long do you think it will take this person to figure out how to get to the internet – assuming this person has connectivity.
Now, in the developed world I don’t think there is a sane person who has never used Windows before. So pretty much the average user has used Windows, knows about Windows, and has reprogrammed his/her brain on the Windows GUI so that even they can get to their favorite IM or Office app.
So Windows is usable to the vast majority of people because they have had 10 years of training on it – it has become intuitive. If you want people to migrate to a unix or unix-like system you first have to get their expectations right – things should have that familiar feel to them. Then slowly add other UI concepts that you all feel is superior to Windows.
If you plop an interface that they just don’t get – they will just hand you the computer back and say its broken or doesn’t work. Take a look at the history of any gadget or product, first impressions always count. Even in games no matter the number of patches you apply.
peace
I agree.
I’m sick and tired of this infighting.
Let’s focus on making a better OS for the user. If we do not change our attitudes, people will never switch, because Linux people are perceived to be arrogant.
I agree as well,
One of the strengths of Linux (or *nix in general) is that users have a CHOICE of desktop environments (among other things) regardless of distro.
The Linux community should be patting each other on the back, instead they are drawing lines in the sand.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the Australia Patents issue was a GOOD thing. I thought so anyway…
While I think his tone was a little strong, it does just show his passion and I do not think his reputation is diminishing at all
I happen to agree with Linus on how he handled BitKeeper.
I don’t use BitKeeper because my needs are simple and easily handled by Subversion-1.2.3.
But for the Linux kernel, there isn’t anything today that matches BitKeeper in terms of relevant features and reliability.
The fanaticism regarding software licensing–particularly by GPL zealots and BSA corporate hounds–is only rivaled by religious radicals believing their version of God’s opinions is the only correct one.
Both extremes are screaming so loudly that discussion about software quality and more practical licensing choices are totally outshadowed.
What’s next? GPL zealots saying Public Domain source code is not “free” because it doesn’t force the user to give up some of their freedom regarding how they distributed derived works?
If BitKeeper licenses weren’t provided at no-cost to kernel jocks or if there was a compelling alternative at the time of the debate, I wouldn’t have even bothered to comment. It just annoys me that Linux kernel development was distracted and a lot of work didn’t get done because of this idiocy.
> But for the Linux kernel, there isn’t anything today
> that matches BitKeeper in terms of relevant features
> and reliability.
GIT is already better than Subversion. Cannot really compare to BitKeeper (never used it) but I have got the impression that GIT is quite similar to BitKeeper (at least more alike than Subversion, CVS, etc.).
The problem with KDE in my mind is that it’s mimicking the stupid design of Windows, with an inconsistent and overloaded, bloated UI. Gnome has gone the other way and has gone too far with a way too simplified UI.
Windows is inconsistent here there and everywhere, as I showed some time ago in some screenshots.
There is mediocre drag’n’drop in Windows, no consistency in menues, very poor scaling in regard to nominal DPI, poor theming support (all Windows versions), poor unicode support (except when using .NET).
Windows is lightyears behind all other OS’es in regard to the desktop.
Windows suffers from a very confusing design, like they didn’t know what they wanted but was only copying others, and of course the “every-function-we-can-think-of-and-let-us-hide-in-the-registry-and-bl ow-up-the-system-with-regular-intervals”.
Even AmigaOS 1.x is ahead of Windows in regard to usability.
> Even AmigaOS 1.x is ahead of Windows in regard to usability.
Wrong.
AmigaOS 1.x is not ahead of Windows in any means
a) direct hardware programming,
b) custom registers,
c) no memory protection,
d) preferences spread everywhere
s:#?
env:#?
envarc:#?
prgdir:#?
text config files,
iff config files,
tooltypes config files.
It’s a f–king mess compared to nowadays needs. If you want to backup something from Amiga, you need to make a full backup rather than backing up your homedir or the etc dir.
Another even bigger mess is the different toolkits
Intuition,
GadTools,
MUI,
Reaction/Classact,
NewGUI.
Etc. Though AmigaOS still have a lot of good things, no doubt. Good IPC (Exec) and some other nice aspects but without memory protection and good multi user system it’s going nowhere anymore.
We were talking about the desktop and not the underlying system.
Of course the underlying system in Amiga OS 1.x is rather dated today. It’s 20 years old.
I do agree his opinion about the file dialog though
“Same with the file dialog. Apparently it’s too “confusing” to let users
just type the filename. So gnome forces you to do the icon selection
thing, never mind that it’s a million times slower.
”
Did Linus really type that about the file selector?
You know, if you want to type the file name there, just type it, starting with a /. A text box will pop up and allow you to enter it.
You know, if you want to type the file name there, just type it, starting with a /. A text box will pop up and allow you to enter it.
And of course everyone knows about this hidden feature, after all it’s so intuitive.
“You know, if you want to type the file name there, just type it, starting with a /. A text box will pop up and allow you to enter it.
And of course everyone knows about this hidden feature, after all it’s so intuitive.”
Linus really said that the UI was too dumbed down for newbies to allow him to type the filename, right?
Well, there he has the functionality right under his fingers, and it doesn’t even clash with that dreaded intuitivity that Gnome strives for.
Well, there he has the functionality right under his fingers, and it doesn’t even clash with that dreaded intuitivity that Gnome strives for.
Actually it’s completely counter-intuitive. I never knew it was there, and never thought of trying it.
The KDE file dialog is IMHO far more intuitive than the Gnome one.
And of course everyone knows about this hidden feature, after all it’s so intuitive
Hey it’s in the mighty HIG it must be perfect.
Also I’m sure Apple did a study on it sometime and we all know that They are just and wise.
I’ve never forgiven Gnome the button-order fsck-up. For an at best marginally (if at all) improvement in usability of Gnome applications they broke compatibility with about every other X-app.
I don’t believe anyone can seriously claim that the reverse button order improves usability more than the resulting inconsistencies destroy it.
The only solution would be for everyone else to switch to Gnome’s way of doing things. Great.
I agree.
The file selector in Gnome is really bad. It is too big and not useful.
The KDE file dialog is MUCH better.
/Chris
And if the directory containing the file you want to access has thousands of files (say /usr/bin) wait some minutes before it opens the whole directory when I know perfectly that I want to choose /usr/bin/oowriter, no matter what /usr/bin has.
Is this working for you…? It doesn’t work for me…Getting an useless text edit…It’s broken..
I’m a Ubuntu user….
I still prefer the old text-field for adress since I can change the current adress without rewriting the location of a file or simply paste the adress into the input field… I think the old text field was far superior than the current buttons.
About nautilus modes someone complained over me some place, I don’t get why they changed it either… The browser mode is easier and more usable IMHO.
Another example is the “Open Terminal”, I heard I can install some plugin or something for it, however it was better having it there as default, another “degrade” with the “upgrades”
And of course GNOME goes out of its way to *tell* you about this feature. I’m a command line junky and I grumbled and moaned about the new file selector for months before I accidentally activated this feature. And I was following the debate about how to design it!
Negative!
just hit CTRL-L and drop in your file path. Works in the GIMP, BMP and I assume many other applications.
KDE is in-your-face “advanced”, many advanced stuff is in Gnome you just have to know where it is…
Linus is a prick.
” KDE is in-your-face “advanced”, many advanced stuff is in Gnome you just have to know where it is… ”
You hit the point : we don’t have all the time in our life to go through some WindowsXP Registry Editor, alias gconf, bullshit to tweak a little our desktop. KDE users got better things to do.
It’s in your face, yes, but you don’t have to make a search night-long just to customize the desktop to your needs. We *use* our apps, we don’t spend our time to search things hidden in gnome. :]
You hit the point : we don’t have all the time in our life to go through some WindowsXP Registry Editor, alias gconf, bullshit to tweak a little our desktop.
Unlike the notorius Windows Registry, gconf is very easy to use. It is better than the KDE control panel where you spend hours trying to find the right place to change anything.
If you have to spend hours to find anything in the kde control center, you must be very, very dumb person. I’m giving you a benefit of the doubt and just assuming you are grossly exaggerating.
That’s very subjective
I did the test and used both GNOME and KDE. The thing is that KDE, I just needed one hour to go through the *drum rolls* kcontrol and tweak everything that annoyed me on the desktop to sane defaults. With GNOME, I usually spend that time stripping the menus down a little bit (who needs that “recording level monitor” anyway? It just does not work
So yeah, I could say the same as you, backwards~
Windows Registry and gconf cannot be compared. They are not the least bit identical at all.
Gconf pretty much contains next to nothing, while the Windows Registry is the real heart of windows – the black spirit if you please :p
Dude. The GNOME file dialog is keyboard-sensitive. If you just start typing, it will use the path name you give it (you can even maneuver around directories by typing the first few letters).
So much for “users are smart, they can read the manual and figure out what features the software has and how to access them!”
… was that really Linus? I can’t imagine him writing something in that vein – about one of the most successful pieces of software that has ever been developed for Linux, and on which some of the most recently popular distributions are based on, whether he likes and use it or not.
Ofcourse it is Linus. This is just like him. It is amazing he has stayed out of a good flamewar for so many years
Linus’ preference to KDE is well known. He only used KDE since 1999 onwards AFAIK.
He is somewhat right on a few things (e.g. some Gnome developers hiding behind their own finger and not implementing stuff citing fake UI problems) but for the most part, Linus is in the wrong. Gnome is far more usable than KDE is. It is not as full-featured as it should have been (and still keep its good usability), but I think Gnome makes more sense as a first-time-computer-user desktop than KDE does.
“I think Gnome makes more sense as a first-time-computer-user desktop than KDE does.”
This is certainly my experience. You should install both of course, and at some point your user may get interested enough to try other WMs, but to start with, for early users, Gnome is definitely less confusing. Its also the best choice if you are migrating ex Mac users. And Nautilus CD writing is, again for the less experienced user, so much simpler than anything else.
To me though its a false choice. You install both because you’re certainly going to want to give them KDE applications – like Tellico, or Kmymoney. They look a bit different, but they work just fine.
We need to accept that there are large numbers of people who are not interested in the computer. They just want to do a smallish number of things regularly: email, web, photos, writing. Gnome is just fine for them.
“but I think Gnome makes more sense as a first-time-computer-user desktop than KDE does.”
Why ? Both are lacking essential first time video tutorial (Thats actually something Linspire got right IMO).
OOTBE ( out of the box experience ) is also often better with the KDE distribution base who use it ( PclinuxOS , Mepis , Xandros , Linspire ).
Too bad you dont write article explaining your point anymore , I miss those a lot.
> “first-time-computer-user”
This is something more and more hard to find (not speaking of 3rd world of course.)
I really don’t understand how someone can, as of today,
focus on users which never used a computer before, especially linux users are generally at least “power users” coming from windows or mac.
Gnome misses the main target in that case.
KDE is more appealing and more oriented to power users.
For real “first-time computer users”, probably gnome is
more suitable.
But be sure that everybody coming from windows (90+%) will complain about “wrong button order”… and feel
thrown back to windows 3.1 times due to “spatial navigation”…
AGREED!
first time users! bah!
maybe 5 years old childs still prefer KDE
Spatial navigation can be turned of. And is btw. default in windows, too. We just turn it off, you know.
Windows 95 had spatial navigation as default. So did NT4.
The wrong button order isn’t that big of a deal, when you’ve discovered it (took some time for me, because I tend to use keyboard).
Ordinary Windows users won’t have a problem because they will have to read the window before doing anything. GUI-Power users from windows however suffer heavily from the wrong button order, but that’s because they haven’t heard of learning an interface, nor have heard of keyboard.
That’s interesting because I almost wrote Linux off because Red Hat used Gnome which imho is the worst desktop for somene coming frome Windows.
“I think Gnome makes more sense as a first-time-computer-user desktop than KDE does.”
I’m sure that anyone accustomed to Gnome would think the same, but how many first-time-computer-users are out there? AND, how many of those first-time-computer-users are having their first computer experience with Linux?
My first computer experience had nothing to do with Gnome or Linux. My first computer experience was with Apple. Later, I also used Windows. Later still, I used CDE on Solaris. I’d say that even though Linux wasn’t my first computer experience, I wasn’t terribly biased toward one way of doing things, and I was used to seeing things done a lot of different ways. Gnome was the first DE I tried with Linux, but I found it’s usability sorely lacking. KDE was a joy to use after having tried Gnome.
What was the difference? Gnome wasn’t confusing because it had too many options. Gnome was confusing because I couldn’t even find options that I had come to expect to find in a modern desktop environment. (I couldn’t even figure out how to do some things that were easy to do in Win95). I agree with Linus. It doesn’t matter whether Gnome is capable of a task if there isn’t a sane way to accomplish that task. Usability depends upon functionality.
Gnome sucks where functionality is concerned. So, for a new user, Gnome seems like a terrible choice just because there are so many holes in what Gnome allows the user to do. It seems like any/every new user would be able to find something that Gnome won’t allow them to do that can be accomplished by plenty of other DE’s. IMO that can be far more confusing that having a few more options that most people ignore anyway.
What I would like in Gnome is a way to do my work in the same fashion I do it under Windows, KDE or OSX. I would like a way to find how to do things without second guessing the developers each time. Usability should not only being about graphical design of the UI, but also about hints and tools to easily find what you have to do to accomplish the One Task.
So, has I have already said in a past flamewar or two, I am a KDE user (and developer wannabee), and I seriously miss the old time of Gnome, when I was finding Gnome 1.X more appealling than the corresponding KDE. What happenned ?
I greatly agree with him, although I don’t think the way of saying it is entirely correct.
Anyway, I run for pop-corn, this one’s gonna be a big one.
“Swearing, references to the nazis, “Please, just tell people to use <a free software project before another free software project>” and misspellings?”
You’ve never read the LKML have you… Or the kernel source code… (Swears in kernel source: http://www.vidarholen.net/contents/wordcount/ )
Linus is a known KDE user… You can search for him in the KDE bug database. There was a story a few years back that commented in passing on how he submitted high quality bug reports. It’s not like he’s the only one who has some of those ‘beefs’ with GNOME.
Now let’s just see 1,000,000 GNOMEers all try to figure out how to moderate a parent article down
while i obviously think it’s cool linus likes our (KDE’s) work, before this spins out of control:
linus is one data point in the grand scheme of things. a fairly important one, but it’s not a reason for everyone to get their panties in a bunch. so please don’t, m’kay? he likes what he likes, surprise! =)
but importantly this hasn’t put a dent in the cooperative tone that we built in Portland last week (which is the mailing list this actually started on). the desktop developers are moving on with our cooperative efforts.
one could think this might kick up all sorts of dust between, say, KDE and GNOME but they’d be wrong in this case. dust between Linus and GNOME, oh yeah. but let’s not confuse this as a KDE vs GNOME issue as some people may be wont to.
I’d better get my flame retardant suit…
No-one is above the occasional OT troll (as this obviously was). This is but the latest symptom of a rift – a small rift, but a rift nonetheless – in the GNOME community, such that lead to the now-defunct goneme effort.
Switching to KDE avoids said rift, but not everyone likes KDE. Depending on who you ask, there has been a lot of compromise in GNOME to try and make ‘everyone’ happy, or none at all. I do hope it works out, because while I am a KDE user, life with KDE as the only ‘mainstream’ OSS desktop environment would be the same as life with Windows as the only ‘mainstream’ computing OS: boring. At least there we have Apple (and I use one of those too =).
This will be big, 1500 post will be here in a matter of hours. OSNews, prepare for the biggest hit in history.
To the news itself, I use gnome over kde and I do not intend to change this. Sorry, Linus
Up early, poked at mail, deeply encouraged by how upset Linus is that he can’t use Gnome because he can’t configure his right mouse button to launch an xterm; it’s nice that people care about that sort of thing.
I think we have a troll!
The well known starten of Linux, wearing the shorts with the big K on it……..
In the other corner: about 1,000,000 users with the shorts with the ugly foot on it
.
And yes, my preference is also KDE, but I do use XFCE on slower machines. I have to agree that the Gnome developers have overstepped their ‘clean-desktop-policy/simplicity’.
Linus may be a respected kernel hacker but does that give him the right to just talk utter crap? I’m surprised the Gnome developers responded so calmly (probably the ‘respect’ thing). That was a pure troll with little or no fact backing it up.
Linus clearly has not used Gnome for a good year or two.
This time the GNOME is the curse of Linux. It gets pople confused with UNIXes, making them think that UNIXes are just Windows clones for those, who doesn’t afford Microsoft’s royalties.
It’s about the printing interface. GNOME is know to keep everything simple, so everything Till Kamppeter is talking about is going to bloat the printing dialog no matter what. Considering this Linus suggesting just to use KDE in this particular case is imo adequate since the odds of additions of non-basic priting options to GNOME are very small. GNOME just isn’t supposed to fit your needs if you know exactly what you do and need all expert settings.
He might not be right in the way he said it, but he’s mostly right. Been using Linux at my desktop since XFree was usable and FVWM ruled the world, and while at the begining Gnome seemed to’ve the upper hand on features I’ve the impression that since 1.2-1.4 it’s development is crawling backwards instead of going forward: too many efforts on reenginiering, too many “this is way too complicated for our users” have broken the efectivity of an otherwise good looking desktop (btw, that “spacialty” parading for nautilus is plainly shit, it’s like using old windows 95! and it confuses the hell out of most newbie users) and turn more and more users to KDE. The issue with KDE is that they’re mostly silent, don’t make a PR show anytime they make a new dialog like gnome -ok, that’s not true either but you catch the idea-. As much as I would like to have four or more full desktops to choose from (kde, gnome, xfce, enlightment 17,etc..) I fear gnome is making their own grave.
btw, that “spacialty” parading for nautilus is plainly shit, it’s like using old windows 95! and it confuses the hell out of most newbie users
I expected that I would had the “spatial” Nautilus when it came out. Instead I loved it and now Nautilus is my favorite file manager. Back in the days of Gnome 2.2 I hated Nautilus so much that I used a combination of XFWM4 as windowmanager (as Metacity is a pretty poor WM compared to it – Havoc if you are reading this) with XFsession, Rox to replace Nautilus and the Gnome panel which I do love.
However even now if I want to do any serious file handling I use Emelfm2.
I prefer WinXP than GNOME or KDE, because of its simplicity, usability and workability. On top of this, I suggest you to use WinXP for desktop. Of course I know it is not advised to have Windows as server.
Unfortunately, the only version of windows that is good enough (stable, feature-rich) as a workstation, is Windows Server 2003…
A 12 page flamewar.
it’s more than 12 pages now 😉
And I wonder if a single person has changed their opinion yet?
My guess is no.
Just use Enlightenment and stop whining.
Linus is a major geek and he likes to fiddle around with his desktop.
So he likes KDE more than GNOME. So what?
“Jedem Tierchen sein Pläsierchen!”(german puts it best. Kind of like “Different strokes for different folks”)
So let’s bring this back to your original assertion about GNOME and KDE
and probably the point of this email: we don’t think that people are
idiots, we just think that in 90% of the cases people have better things
to do than learn the low level details of the desktop and how to
configure confusing key combinations. Software should “just work” for
our users, express clearly what’s going on on the system, and it should
be accessible to a wide audience. This doesn’t mean that GNOME sucks
and KDE rules – it just means that it’s not right for _you_. And for
the record I feel the same way about KDE. I think that it’s fine, but
just not for me. And lucky for you, there are still a lot of desktop
options out there that fit your bill.
So I hope that this email gives you a little better perspective on where
we’re coming from. We’re not treating people like idiots, we’re just
trying to make an operating system that tries to make computers not get
in the way but instead enable a large number of people to get useful
work done.
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00026.htm…
“We’re not treating people like idiots, we’re just
trying to make an operating system that tries to make computers not get
in the way but instead enable a large number of people to get useful
work done.”
Well, I think KDE is right in the approach “let the user to do more things”.
And I think Gnome is right in the approach “keep it clear and simple”.
However, I think KDE beats Gnome in making the UI more progressive in trading simplicity for control in the sense that KDE is not really cluettered by confusing menus if the first time user doesn’t try to do something advanced and if the user try to do something more in depth, may browse many menus of increasing difficulty instead of being annoyed by huge option lists. I think this progressive difficulty approach is essential in keeping focus in what the user is doing and i think it’s bettere implemented in KDE, although also KDE has a lot of improvement to do to become more clean without loosing his fine tuning potential.
My two cents…
Giorgio
Heh… KDE has their simplification project too. What Linus’s post boils down to is some options people would like, that Gnome people aren’t against (in the two specific examples), and a nebulous point about UI design.
lol linus. lol.
Linus is just a man not a f***ing icon.
If I can say this so can he.
And it is true Gnome is not a good as KDE and it will never be.
🙂 This is just my opinion….
Only real geeks can use as much time as You on topic ..
🙂
Have a nice day ..
I wonder why many people prefer Mac OS X over Windows XP when talking about user friendliness, if what Linus here seems to state actually is THE TRUTH on this matter…
The fact that people so not mind being confused by options as long as the is less features.
This just seems like true stupidity to me. I have no idea what sort of competence Linus thinks he has in this field of usability and user interface design and what might be related, but he definately and undoubtedly has some knowledge on coding. Stick with that and stop playing guru or decicive factor or whatever you might wanna call it.
GNOME users like GNOME for different things than KDE users love KDE (or so is my impression). Get people doing great apps and frontends and the likes for both environments and let people choose.
I have tried KDE at different times but have always backed down since I never liked the look and feel of it, I never liked any theme enough to hide away all the other things that make me uncomfortable with KDE.
KDE seems to me to be a cheap and uninspired Windows-esque GUI with a lot of different littele annoyances to follow for a person like myself. It does not at any point in time bring a smile on my face to see a KDE screenshot, whereas I have had this experience with GNOME, since it simply seems to try to do some of the things right that distinguish Mac OS X from XP… -A nice and friendly uncluttered face!
> we don’t think that people are idiots, we just think that in 90% of the cases people have better
> things to do than learn the low level details of the desktop and how to configure confusing key
> combinations.
But that’s what they actually did. As a former participant to GNOME I can confirm that they said things like this. But I agree that the people should have better things to do than low level details of the desktop. Unfortunately – not with GNOME. There are simply to many things inside and around GNOME that simply doesn’t work or work well enough to keep people away from the low level details. I find myself more fiddling with big and small annyoances of GNOME than I find fiddling with KDE.
I really have to agree with Torvalds, and I have no programming skills and a very basic knowledge of Linux. I’ve used both KDE and Gnome many times, and keep going back to KDE. I always feel guilty, because I want to like Gnome more than KDE, but I just can’t.
Use whatever suits you. There is no reason to feel obligated to use something that doesn’t.
I think that Linus should never use his “power” saying things like this.
He could use his voice making people think if what they’re doing is the best for the project, not for starting a flame-war with a “Please, just tell people to use KDE.”.
In my experience I found the simplicity (or lack of information if you prefer) of Gnome fantastic when you need an easy to use graphic interface.
I don’t think this is improper conduct on the part of Linus. The fact that Linus doesn’t feel compelled to hold his fire because of his name and position is exactly what the free software community is all about. With Linus joining the fray, other big-names such as Jeff Waugh, Nat Friedman, and Havoc Pennington can join in the fun.
There’s no loser here, only some high-profile discussion between influencial members of the community. It shows that these guys are regular people, much like the people who read and post at OSNews. They use the same software we use, and read much of the same news media as we do. They’re entitled to comment like everyone else.
Linus doesn’t really have any more influence on GNOME development than anyone else can. If Linus submitted code for the PPD configuration dialog to the GNOME project, I’m sure the maintainers would review it just the same as if an unknown developer wrote it. I’m sure none of the GNOME developers are going to stay up nights developing said feature because of Linus’ comments. If they do, it will be because they agree with him, not because of his name.
As for the general “why do we have two DEs, we would be so much better off choosing one and pooling our resources” comment: GNOME vs. KDE represents a competitive situation that drives rapid improvement. If there were one official free software DE, there would be less incentive to develop it.
So, in short, I like GNOME/KDE flamewars, I think that in the long run they produce constructive thought, that discussion amongst the highest echelons of the community is preferrable, and that having two competing DEs is a good thing for the free software desktop for the time being.
“I don’t think this is improper conduct on the part of Linus. The fact that Linus doesn’t feel compelled to hold his fire because of his name and position is exactly what the free software community is all about. With Linus joining the fray, other big-names such as Jeff Waugh, Nat Friedman, and Havoc Pennington can join in the fun.”
True that. I thought their replies were rather civil. Not once did one of them say “Hey Linus, when am I going to be able to use my .config from the last version of 2.6.x to compile the latest 2.6.x?”.
you already can, I do it every time a new version is out.
The day I met Linus, I will be spending him the best box of GERMAN beer that I find in regular stores. Because I so f–king damn agree with him.
I can pretend to agree with you too for the free box of beer.
LOL, the_best_GERMAN_beer? Poor Linus 😀
“The day I met Linus, I will be spending him the best box of GERMAN beer that I find in regular stores. Because I so f–king damn agree with him.”
judging by linus’ comments, i think linus has had far too much beer already.
Linus using a desktop environment?1?! I cant believe this is Linus, real hackers only use command line interface, so stop the flamewar, this is a fake
Its not fake at all. For a long time Linus was a Suse user and the default DE in Suse was KDE.
Personally I think he is right. GNOME is not friendly at all to advanced users and a lot of things are dumbed down. For me the file selector is really awful and its a sad thing that Firefox now uses it by default.
Linus could have obviously put his opinions across in a different manner, but the way he did it, is common on most developer mailing lists, so I don’t see why people should complain just because its Linus. Obviously a lot of GNOME fans (this site has loads) may be offended but they really need to accept the fact that their DE of choie is not perfect just like the rest that are out there.
… with both sides. I think both GNOME and KDE are easy enough for a first time user. Slightly different, but easy. People who find GNOME or KDE confusing, is probably the same people who claims they’re “out of internet” when the IE icon is missing on the Windows desktop. I mean, is the same people who also thinks Windows is confusing. I myself prefer KDE over the 2, but I don’t think GNOME is that bad.
Windows is confusing. All DE’s are confusing to some extent. Mac OS X is no better.
So far they all tend to concentrate on certain parts of usability overdoing it in that area, instead of just following good practices.
In general Gnome has been so simplified that it leaves power users behind, exactly what Jeff Waugh wrote in his reply to Linus Torvalds.
I believe the tagline “whoever wins, we lose” applies here. Both environments are terrible. Both projects’ developers need to have a serious look at Apple’s Human Interface Guidelines.
Linus is definitely in the wrong here, as far as I’m concerned. His points may have some validity, no denying that, but the way he said it was simply, in every sense of the word, unacceptable. Whether Linus likes it or not– he is a man with a certain authority, in the same league basically as people like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. Whenever people like them say something, it’s news.
I actually find it kind of naive of Linus to say what he said. I thought Linus was someone who stood above the childish bickering between KDE and GNOME users (the KDE and GNOME devs seem to be getting closer together every day). Apparantly, he is not.
And that’s just sad. Linus: -1.
> And that’s just sad. Linus: -1.
I’d give him +5
Is aim might be to shake a situation he as know to be non moving and stale for a long time , if its not a fake , sometime you need to lend your voice to some expert because the people in a group are not really listening to what he is saying or dont really think the subject is really of high value or of importance right now.
Some of the best GNU/Linux code in both KDE and GNOME have came directly from jab at each other , drunk promise people recalled the next day , dare and even bragging rights.
Linus Thorvalds is also someone who often will not think too far on politics or the effect of is comments.
If its not a fake it might turn out that Linus tried to use printing on GNOME in the past and found it to be so
lacking that he got mad at the situation still not beeing fixed today.
Personnaly I think this news is more sensionnalistic then informative. The title of the news is also written by my favorite sensionnalistic title maker in all the OSNews editor ;-).
Torvalds : KDE printing system Better then GNOME for power user.
He is also using SuSe on an Apple system if he did not change recently 😉 , he whas also the best friend of the guy who made the Kernel veryfying system which whas non free “bytekeeper” who got kick out by him after he got invited to testify in court a couple of time.
Torvalds : the news I am an Alien where false , I whas only abducted by them 😉
Torvalds : KDE printing system Better then GNOME for power user.
NO. His words are about GNOME as a whole and are NOT referring to JUST the printing dialog.
Your right 😉
I just have a nitpicking problem with “Use KDE” 😉 ( I never do that get stuck on meaningless details 😉 ).
Linus is definitely in the wrong here, as far as I’m concerned. His points may have some validity, no denying that, but the way he said it was simply, in every sense of the word, unacceptable.
This is so wrong, that I don’t know where to begin…
1. Imagina a scenario where Linus posts to a mailing list an opinion that describes his disappointment with KDE. He thinks that it is “bloated” and “it just gets in the way” and all the usual gnome blahblah that is regurarly modded up +5 here on OSNEWS. Can you say, in all honesty, that you would label him a troll in this case? It is exactly the same thing – it is just that his actual opinion does not coincide with yours, and hence, you as an editor (which makes it worse) label him a troll?
I thought Linus was someone who stood above the childish bickering between KDE and GNOME users
Are you sure YOU are above that bickering? Is Eugenia? Just read her opinion (which is very well known) that – to sum up – currently GNOME is better, more usable… The difference between her and Linus is that she is an editor of a site that should at least keep up pretenses of neutrality when it comes to these questions… at least theoretically. It doesn’t really bother me that she prefers GNOME – what bothers me is double standards. You accuse Linus of being a troll, of not being above the “childish bickering”, even though he gives his opinion as a user, while Eugenia (I don’t know about you personally) usually gives her pro-GNOME opinion as a “usability expert” to lend some credit to her claims.
You better start looking at your on agenda before accusing Linus of being part of a childish bickering b/w GNOME/KDE users – are you not part of that as well?
2. I migrate people to Free Software – and soon this will become my way of earning money (for now these are experiments, we do market research – desktop viability, backend viability of free software…). We limit our offerings to very few choices: backend – FreeBSD, desktop – Kubuntu. Why Kubuntu? Because of KDE! Incidentally, I have exactly the same experience as Linus had:
And when I tell people that, they tend to nod, and have some story of
their own why they had a feature they used to use, but it was removed
because it might have been confusing.
For new Linux “converts” the opinion is obviously not the same, but I used to deal with people who used that godawful MS Office floating toolbar to launch every application on their desktop, and I can tell you, that most usability choises I heard explained in the past two years by gnome devs were bogus in my experience. THIS IS ALL IMHO of course – just as it was in Linus’ (well, not so humble) opinion – but we both have a serious gripe: people throw around words like “usability” too easily, leading to circular or unsubstantial arguments, while real usability studies are not conducted at all. I haven’t read a serious usability study for a long time. (maybe this will change with openusability and all). And no, I don’t consider a study conducted with people who are absolute computer illiterate (not knowing that the right mouse button is good for something) representative. They are a very specific subset of users, they are NOT the majority, and making design decisions based on experiments conducted on this very small subset of the userbase is WRONG. That is Linus’ point. Is he politically correct? Of course not (” This “users are idiots, and are confused by functionality” mentality of
Gnome is a disease. If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will
use it.”) Is he a troll? Well, if Thom_Holwerda thinks he is, because he doesn’t share his opinion, than I question his credibility (the credibility of osnews) as an unbiased newsite. (Just think again of my first point – what if the situation would have been reversed? Long time osnews readers know very well, that he would not be labeled as a troll, oh no, in fact, we would have a flurry of supporting comments from osnews editors).
And that’s just sad. Linus: -1.
I could say the same of your own post.
1. Imagina a scenario where Linus posts to a mailing list an opinion that describes his disappointment with KDE. He thinks that it is “bloated” and “it just gets in the way” and all the usual gnome blahblah that is regurarly modded up +5 here on OSNEWS. Can you say, in all honesty, that you would label him a troll in this case? It is exactly the same thing – it is just that his actual opinion does not coincide with yours, and hence, you as an editor (which makes it worse) label him a troll?
Did you actually read any of my comments? OF course if he said all this about KDE it would get posted! What do you think! I even said in my parent reply that I think there is validity in his posts, yet you AGAIN start kicking that dead horse that is called OSNEws’so-called bias towards GNOME. I’m getting really fed up with that dead horse.
In case you want to know, I recently switched from GNOME to KDE due to a number of things GNOME could not provide me with (one of th emost important being the lack of a “double-click-titlebar = minimize” option– yes, a feature request was filed but denied).
Are you sure YOU are above that bickering?
No, I’m not. But I’m not one of the main figures in the open source movement. It is my *job* to express my opinion, being a “journalist” (sort of, that is) and all.
However, Linus is a public figure, and whether he likes it or not, he is the face of what we call “Linux”, and with that comes responsibility.
while Eugenia (I don’t know about you personally) usually gives her pro-GNOME opinion as a “usability expert” to lend some credit to her claims.
Again, have you even read this thread? Eugenia said the same as I did: there is validity in Linus’ points, but the tone is unnacceptable.
—
Thom Holwerda
As a Mac user you have to feel that way.
The dumber and more illogical it gets the better you like it
Naahh.. Linus is doing this to make it obvious what’s going on, and I can follow him to some extent, being a Gnome user and power user at the same time.
And Jeff Waugh did admit that Gnome occasionally left the power users behind.
And according to Havoc Penningtons statements it’s clear why Gnome is going bad, when aiming for a design that some just loves and others just hate, instead of going for the design that everybody can live with. The latter is always the right choice, no matter what. That’s the problem with Gnome. Leaving experienced users behind, heading for the dumbest possible approach (even though Gnome has certain neat elements, incl. installation by drag’n’drop here there and everywhere).
I find it really worrying that the leader of the project that has the best chance of pushing free software onto the mainstream desktop is decrying usability and is clearly not interested in catering to non-techie users.
Gnome, best chance of pushing fee software onto the mainstream desktop? I love Linux, it’s been my main desktop since BeOS died. But come on now, it’s time to give up the dream of it ever going mainstream. It could be the greatest desktop in the world and most people still wouldn’t use it. People worrying about what they can do to get Joe Average onto Linux are as sad as the guy who sneeks into a womans apartment to do her dishes because “perhaps THEN she’ll love him!” Linux is great, it’s been rejected by the average computer user.
My opion on that matter deviates a lot from yours. I believe Linux has grown in popularity and has started to recieve nominal use by a small group of non-tech savvy people. For instance, my mom and both of my sisters use linux and they are definitely not tech savvy people… and seeing as how I live half way across the country, they don’t get any admin help from me.
My point is this… the linux community should not give up on striving to make linux better for the desktop, because as linux evolves into a more usable platform with a well-rounded and useful set of applications, your ‘Joe Average’ user is evolving into a more tech-savvy person as technology further integrates into his life. Not to mention that the younger generation is growing up on computers. Apparently linux isn’t attractive to most ‘Joe Average’s’ today, but tomorrow is another story.
As an example of what I mean. I have used computers since I was a little kid (Apple II being my first)and I think as a result I’ve been pretty open to try new things (such as linux) because I don’t feel inhimibited — I’m not afraid of my computer or installing an operating system. I have a lot of friends that are like me in that respect and I have other friends that never used a computer until later in life and are the complete opposite — afraid to even install software on their own. People in developed nations are beginning to more commonly fall into the first category and as a result I wouldn’t be surprise if linux took a much more sizable chunk of the consumer and corporate desktop markets in the future…
we just need to be patient 🙂
Why does Linus Torvalds sound like an idiot all of a sudden?
He who creates software and DOES NOT think purely and solely from the viewpoint of the end-user deserves to be hung, drawn and quartered.
This is exactly where most OSS projects go wrong and fail to get non-tech-nerds to use them.
Apple and Gnome seem to be the only one who seem to understand this. Being an extremely geekie kernel-hacker, Torvalds simply can only judge what he himself would like to see, not what’s good for an average non-kernel-hacker-geek-user.
Where has Linus said usability is not important? He just does not agree with the way Gnome understands usability. I don’t, either. Gnome thinks usability is:
– removing features, just for the sake of it. They take this to the extreme, so when I need something the software does not provide me, can I say is usable for me? Of course not.
– hiding configuration options so badly under the hood no one understands how to change them. Kcontrol may be a mess, but at least given time and patience anyone can get their way through it just with clicks of the mouse.
Of course, providing funcionality while maintaining the software reasonably clean and appropiate for both novice and advanced users is no easy task. That’s why KDE it’s not perfect and has so much work ahead of them, because they IMO have not reached that point. But the way Gnome has tackled the problem is very disappointing to me… they just have chosen the easy path.
No, I disagree… Linux was developed for people who want an os like linux, not people who want linux solely if it’s easy, it WAS created for techies, and there’s no reason he should be forced to dumb it down, just because it’s now cool to use linux.
meaning he dislikes os x too? since gnome resembles os x in terms of UI/usability…
> meaning he dislikes os x too? since gnome resembles os x in terms of UI/usability…
Please stop comparing GNOME and OSX. GNOME in no way resembles OSX in any terms, neihter UI, neither USABILITY and neither JUST WORKS.
F*ck off Mac zealot.
Well, this can sound like a bomb on gnome fanatics, but It’s totally true. Maybe now, that “god” speaks some of you will pay more attention to kde instead of assuming that gnome is all you need.
dude, people aren’t assuming it’s all they need. they KNOW what they need, and obviously, GNOME is it. if other people are better suited by KDE, fine ;D
but please, don’t presume to tell people what they need.
Hands up all those who think Torvalds should retire?
He’s recently come out with quite a few comments that really dont befit a person in his position. THis is just another of his senile ramblings.
I like KDE better for the same reasons
Linus doesn’t seem to recognize the fact that there are indeed complete idiots on this planet (very many, actually) who do not know how to hanldle functionality.
And they should be served, too, if you want *NIX to be successful on a large scale. And I do think that Gnome can and will play a crucial role here. Some users just need this dumbing down approach.
I would also like to stress the fact that the functionality vs simplicity discussion isn’t as black and white as Linus appears it to be. Applications can provide both a clean, simple and attractive interface, yet full of functionality. Several apps come to mind: amaroK, Thunderbird/Firefox, gmail, iTunes(probably more Apple apps), winamp, k3b, Nero, PowerDVD, etc etc.
I honestly believe if Linux is every going to make it big in the desktop market…. Gnome and KDE both need to be replaced by something a far cry better.
I wouldn’t admit to being on the development team for either of them at this point in time.
“I would also like to stress the fact that the functionality vs simplicity discussion isn’t as black and white as Linus appears it to be. Applications can provide both a clean, simple and attractive interface, yet full of functionality.”
But that’s exactly the point Linus is making.
Just not providing funcionality != useability, providing this functionality in a way that it is easy to use even for non-technical users is.
To me I’d like to see more focus on XFCE. Not only for geeks or people with slow machines, I think it’s just terrific with any configuration. You can have all the functionalities of Gnome/KDE (AFAIK, at least pretty much), and it’s CLEAN, simple and intuitive. To me I feel it’s kinda like the Firefox of *nix desktops. It’s not made up of so many bits and pieces as Gnome/KDE, so the chances for bugs are also much lower and it’s very consistent. You can argue that it hasn’t got a desktop to put files, but if you take a look at many endusers’ desktops and see what a mess it often is, it might be better to skip it altogether. You can have it anyhows by running nautilus at startup, but why mess it all up by doing that?
I say, Linus, swith to XFCE.
I just tried XFCE on my vector box, the latest
stable one..nice installer they have!
One problem I had with it that I never
had on KDE or blackbox was that when
I tried to start Opera, from command line
it complained about no acrobat reader and then
quit(opera was unlaunched) with something about a
fatal i/o error.. The warning was a show stopper in XFCE but not
in KDE or blackbox. Strange.
Torvalds is becoming irrelevant as his child grows out of his control. It seems he has become resentful of this fact and now resorts to cheap remarks in a futile attempt to get some attention.
He needs to realise that Linux is no longer for the geeks, it is starting to become more mainstream and is leaving him and his mindset behind.
> Torvalds is becoming irrelevant as his child grows out of his control.
I don’t see this trend. Care to back your statement up with some values ?
– Linux is now more than just a kernel. (yes I know technically linux IS the kernel but in the eyes of the rest of the world, linux = kernel + DE + OSS)
– Torvalds is simply a maintainer/developer of the kernel.
I am not doubting the intelligence of the bloke, he just has to learn when to let go, his area of expertese is not DE’s. He is a kernel geek (like most people on this forum) but that is all.
His comments on DE’s are as irrelevant as the next persons given his position.
And it appear clears that your comments are therefore irrelevant. I just had to follow your way of thinking.
It’s easy to make such declaration, as you can see.
I agree, my comments are irrelevant, yes. they are my opinion only and they dont hold any strength apart from that.
In the same way, Torvalds view on anything other than that which he is expert in is irrelevant.
He has to face up to facts, He is no longer the centre of the Linux world. His baby has outgrown him and he resents it.
He has to face up to facts, He is no longer the centre of the Linux world. His baby has outgrown him and he resents it.
Yes, his support of KDE clearly shows his hatred for GNU/Linux (the OS not the kernel)
I assume tomorrow he’s gonna demonstrate his opposition to the current US government by flaming a vi mailing list?
True, he is supporting KDE which is the more ‘geeky’ DE out there (in comparison to Gnome). As a result he is just showing that geeks prefer KDE.
My point is that he is losing touch with Linux (as a whole, kernel + DE + etc) and he is trying to reassert his (dwindling) authority by starting flamewars instead of staying in his area of expertise.
BTW: vi is untouchable ;o)
For this Comment, only Linus is an idiot.
> For this Comment, only Linus is an idiot.
See, everyone who disagrees with the GNOME crowd and movement is automatically an idiot or a troll… Pathetic community yours that is…
Let’s recap all this.
Linus
Most of you probably do not read Linus posts. They’re usualy precise and clever. You’d think he just code Linux and it went out this way that he’s the lead guy. But it’s far more. He’s clever, that’s plain, and that’s not just about writing code. Read more of his emails to make your opinion.
Gnome
Things like typing / to find a file are handy, but light years away from the supposed easy to use stuff. I mean, first I just typed some stuff and I wondered where the box came from. It looked like it was a bug – and i’m not kidding – even placement is not obvious.
After a few tries I figured out.
OSX
Gnome tries to have some OSX lookalike but it’s not OSX. It’s human nature I guess, that when something looks a bit like something else, it should be assumed that it’s just exactly the same thing. This is the reason why analogies, like, the usual “car” thing, rarely ever work. But if you’re naive or don’t know about it, it’s gonna work. That’s called manipulating minds
KDE
KDE tends to ressemble WinXP on his own. It’s not perfect. To tell the truth, I’m more efficient using WinXP than KDE. But now, is it complex to use ?
No. And Windows users feel at home. And its powerfull. And you go no hidden boxes looking like bugs.
Now, what’s the reason for all Gnome people to defend it ?
Simple matter:
A/ it looks pretty, sleek and clean by default. And I’m really _only_ talking about look, not about functionality. People are superficial (and I don’t blame them)
B/ Gnome people have been spreading FUD lately in many articles vs KDE. I did not especially favor KDE, but I hate this kind of things. FUD, sucks, plain.
Now, of course this OSNews article is a troll, but I hope my post helps you to make your own, clear, and real opinion, not just based on your loyality in a WM or other kinds of brain-shortcuts so that you don’t have to think for _yourself_ for a minute.
“B/ Gnome people have been spreading FUD lately in many articles vs KDE.”
Good thing there arent any KDE zealots spreading FUD about GNOME…
Oh wait, what was this article about again?
Come on, there are morons in both camps, neither is better than the other in this respect.
I was really disapointed when they removed the ability to type in the path in Nautilus and in the file chooser dialog. I copy and paste file locations all the time!
I was really disapointed when they removed the ability to type in the path in Nautilus and in the file chooser dialog. I copy and paste file locations all the time!
There are bookmarks and the history for that purpose (i.e. moving quickly in the filesystem). So, technically, using copy &paste was “something you should not do”.
Though I see how this can piss people off, consider that a desktop is a philosophy of how you do things. So for a desktop it is perfectly reasonable to force a precise way to do things on the user.
“I was really disapointed when they removed the ability to type in the path in Nautilus”
they haven’t removed it. if you go to ‘Go’ then ‘location’, you will find that its still there.
There are bookmarks and the history for that purpose (i.e. moving quickly in the filesystem). So, technically, using copy &paste was “something you should not do”.
What about copy & paste into the terminal, for example? I know, this is something only powerusers should do, but it’s so frustrating when it’s not there, and it shouldn’t be necessary to remove it (noobs can handle it in windoze).
>Linus is definitely in the wrong here, as far as I’m >concerned.
You are free to express your opinion, just as Linus is.
>Whether Linus likes it or not– he is a man with a >certain authority, in the same league basically as >people like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. Whenever >people like them say something, it’s news.
Yes, and with his whole authority he just expressed his preferences. And yes, it is news. What’s exactly wrong with it?
> I thought Linus was someone who stood above the >childish bickering between KDE and GNOME users (the >KDE and GNOME devs seem to be getting closer >together every day)
And because he is mere user he should just shut up, and worship every decision of mighty developers, right? Well, this is typical mindset of people from GNOME project.
Yes, and with his whole authority he just expressed his preferences. And yes, it is news. What’s exactly wrong with it?
He has a responsibility too. Meaning he has to weigh his words and thoughts just a little bit more than people like you and me, with little to no authority or responsibility.
And because he is mere user he should just shut up, and worship every decision of mighty developers, right? Well, this is typical mindset of people from GNOME project.
First of all, I’m not of the GNOME project; I actually prefer KDE over GNOME these days.
Of course it is his right to speak his mind. But you can speak your mind without references to nazis, profanities and flaming/trolling. As if the flamewar with Andy Tanenbaum wasn’t enough.
For all those affronted by the “interface nazis” phrase: Am I the only one who was reminded of the Seinfeld “Soup Nazi” episode. Maybe the phrase just snuck in from the there. Not necessarily to be confused with Hitler and his cronies.
Personally I see it as a comparison to Hitler and his kind.
I don’t see any reason to avoid such a comparison. Gnome simplification takes freedom away from people – Hitler took freedom away from people.
Gnome-devs are telling people what to do and no to do – Hitler told people what to do and not to do.
The Interface Nazi comment is perfectly okay. Using the prefix “Nazi” to make you understand that somebody is forcing other people to something is quite common – at least in Denmark.
We have words like ligusterhæksfascist, adfærdsfascist, pædagogfascist and so on. Communist and nazi can also be used to show that somebody is forcing other people to something.
So no reason to be upset about Linus’ words of choice. They make it easier to understand him.
So no reason to be upset about Linus’ words of choice. They make it easier to understand him.
I completely disagree. You have to put the words in context to the general mood of his post and then his use of “F.I” and “Nazis” is very bad given his “status” in the OSS community. “Benevolent dictator” has never seemed more right…
A “Nazi” is not what most people associate with someone who forces people to do things, neither is a “commie”. The word “Nazi” is in every way a strong insult rather than just saying someone “who force people to do things”.
His actual sentiment abotu Gnome/KDE may have merit but worded the way he did it then the point is nullified fer me. He could’ve worded it differently and made the point anyway.
Not the type of person I’d want heading something like Linux… but that is just me, obviously.
Well, it’s very common in Denmark to use fascist, nazi or communist about people who are forcing something on to somebody else.
It’s not a nice way to put things, but it’s efficient and very common (at least in Denmark).
BTW, here in Russia we seems to stop to use “fashist” and replace to words like “amerokos” in the same cases, and more common after Yugolsavia and other “Pure freedom to Iraq (saddam nuke anyone? nice prices, free modern totrute chamber photo included)” or “Your have not enough freedom ? Just a second, We know what you need and come to you” bloody acts.
Linus is right in his try to force GNOME devs to do something new, but words he use . 2.X series is really stalled. Where is uniform cairo rendered GUI that can be scaled to any size and printed ? expect in 2007 ? Worst font randering engine in universe (gamma + kerning + integer coords everyware) and KDE use it too but I hate to compare GNOMe to KDE, I always compare GNOME and my imaginary “Ideal Desktop”. There is no excuse to talk about vector display and still have ancient bitmap icons/theme. Button order or print dialog is only small part of issues. I hope that GNOME make changes to 3.0 faster after such loud public scandalistic discussion.
Font rendering in Gnome is good. Freetype2 with BCI enabled beats the crap out of ClearType, no matter what kind of monitor we’re talking about.
Gnome+FreeType2 with BCI enabled is equal to Mac OS X in regard to quality. They have many similarities in regard to font rendering, incl. subpixeling. Same basic techniques, beating ClearType again.
Sorry you just not understand what i talking about (may be my bad english or/and that i carefully read ALL that ~500 posts
). OT, but try white text on black background. mc or even ftstring/ftview is you friend. Than compare to Cleartype. MS default to 1.4 gamma compensation, you can tweak it in registry or download small ClearType tweaker from microsoft.com and force to sRGB default 2.2. xorg/treetype/GTK developers talks about patents that cover tricks but i cannot beleive that passing colors throw LUT before and after glyth blending is so scientific and patent protected. Sure it is example of GNOME devs laziness, nothing more.
I’m using ClearType at home on Win2K3 Server (the only other option is no antialiazing at all).
ClearType renders extremely poorly even after having used the tweaker from Microsoft (ClearType Tuner) – testing all possible combinations. True, it only shows with minor fonts like 8 point Arial unscaled and other fonts in that size, but it’s still ugly.
Font rendering is generally very patent encumbered, but that’s a non issue in Denmark. Using FreeType2 with BCI enabled gives much better looking fonts. I’d like to see some screenshots of what you think is wrong, because everything is fine here. And as a font designer (amateur font designer since 1996) I believe I do know something about it
I thought it was Tridge?? Tanenbaum wrote Minix.
Yes Tanenbaum did write Minix – he also had a huge flamewar with Linus about linux. See http://www.dina.kvl.dk/%7Eabraham/Linus_vs_Tanenbaum.html
Thanks. I thought he was referring to the recent bitkeeper wars…
Where the actual developpers tend to be able to actually discuss matters like the print dialog with mutual respect for their design principles, Linus once again fails to see the global picture and resorts to ‘colorful language’ to get an extremely egocentric point across.
Honestly… I would have a hard time finding people over the age of 20 to not find his post childish and uninformed.
Probably because you are too stupid to understand what he is saying.
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00021.htm…
Frederic told that the options from the PPD file are intentionally not listed in the printing dialog, the usability team of GNOME was against listing these options. They clutter the dialog and can be more confusing than useful to the user.
For me, everything that’s wrong with how Gnome approaches usability is summed up in that paragraph. Instead of discussing ways of presenting those features in a way understandable and not intimidating for a user, they just choose to just throw them away. Screw all those who might find them useful. Ladies and Gentlemen, problem solved at the blink of an eye.
> everything that’s wrong with how Gnome approaches usability is summed up in that paragraph.
It would be if it were true. But it’s not. In “he said he said” information is often lost.
i agree that linus could have used better words, but i have to agree with im 100%. Gnome is just not usable, kde has so many applications and technologies that are so much better than what is in gnome, you cant even compare it( look at k3b, kopete, kpdf, konqueror(with the kio’s))
“i agree that linus could have used better words, but i have to agree with im 100%. Gnome is just not usable, kde has so many applications and technologies that are so much better than what is in gnome, you cant even compare it( look at k3b, kopete, kpdf, konqueror(with the kio’s))”
It’s more than a gnome/kde war, it’s a gtk/qt war. And perhaps the best apps are QT, except the gimp, audacity and inkscape, i can’t think of any other gtk app that’s irreplaceable.
QT/kde = Digikam, Koffice, Kopete, Konversation, Kontact ( Kontact is way beyond evolution, Kontact IS the unix philosophy of “one app for one task”. Evolution is bloatware that’s copying Microsoft, like mono, like all things that MDI loves. ), QT is also the best music utils and apps : Qjackctl, Soundgarden, Muse, Qsampler and more.
QT is also Konqueror and Opera, the best unix browsers, ever.
It’s KDevelop too and quanta. Can’t compare these great apps with the anjutas, monodevelop and other bluefishs.
Or K3B. The true nero for linux.
KDE is all about freedom of choice. You can tweak it to death without needing to modify some crap config files or using the WindowsXP Registry Editor, err, *gconf*.
Final, QT is not as sliced shit boring dependecies hell as GTK. QT is *complete*, gtk apps use more and more librairies that can make you scream the hell in earth with all those dependencies. God, Patrick Volkerding got it right and dropped gnome from slackware.
It’s pretty clear that “KDE’s” more fully featured than GNOME, and to me, has a smoother, more solid, and more responsive feel – that said, “GNOME’s” typically less resource hungry (not that that’s a huge issue going forward) – both projects are making good incremental progress and the ongoing interaction/discussion between the two, will benefit both.
All good
“”GNOME’s” typically less resource hungry (not that that’s a huge issue going forward)”
You are wrong. KDE itself maybe is little seconds longer to load but the KDE/QT apps are more fast/reactives. Try KDE/Konqueror, then load Firefox or Galeon or Epiphany on gnome. Konqueror is way more fast.
The real interface nazis work at Apple Computer.
Amen to that!
Come on guys… we haven’t reached a 100 on comments
I have an idea ! Let’s fight over which one of those two is better: Emacs or Vi
Yeah, let’s do that.
Or even better: AMD vs Intel
No ?
How about: bash vs sh
Yes, that’s the one. I vote for bash, screw you all sh users.
This is so stupid
Linus is a geek. Of course, he’s going to prefer KDE. Geeks hardly give a damn about the aesthetics or usability of graphic user interfaces. These are some of the same people in the early 90s who would have said, “Who needs a GUI?” I have advice for desktop application developers. Don’t focus on the geeks. They will drive you nuts. They will never be satisfied. They will always say your software sucks. Yeap, I said it. Now you can pelt me.
So what was Linus’ peeve with GNOME? Something along the line of wanting to bind mouse buttons to window management actions. Now when was the last time 99% of the computing world wanted to do that?
You know, you should actually read what he says before disagreeing with him:
“> The majority of end-users want a simple printer dialog.
This is a great example of being a F.I.
There is no such thing as a “majority of end users” in general. For example, maybe _I_ am in what you _claim_ to be a majority, in that I want a simple printer dialog – because I have a simple printer, and even simpler printer needs.
So a simple printer dialog doesn’t bother me, and as such you can count me in your “majority”.
But I can guarantee you one thing: the _vast_ majority of people are part of a specific minority when it comes to something. This is somethign that the F.I. “interface designers” in the Gnome sense seems to continually overlook.
For example, maybe I don’t care about printers. But I _do_ care about my mouse. If I can’t control the left/middle/right button actions, I get really upset. Again, the “majority” of people may not care, so by your majority argument, the mouse setup should be so simple that the majority of people can never get confused. But I _do_ care.
In other words: your “majority” argument is total and utter BULLSHIT. It can be true for any particular feature, but it’s simply not true in general.
To put it in mathematical terms: “The Intersection of all Majorities is the empty set”, or its corollary: “The Union of even the smallest minorities is the universal set”.
It’s a total logical fallacy to think that the intersection of two majorities would still be a majority. It is pretty damn rare, in fact, because these things are absolutely not correlated.
And the technical term for somebody who claims to do user interface design and not understand this fact is a “f–kING IDIOT”.
And this has _nothing_ to do with “technical users”. Even totally non-technical users care about something. In fact, it might be their printer, and having a way to set the paper type and resolution by hand.
Another way of saying this: we’re _all_ “special” some way. We’re damn quirky, even the nontechnical among us.
But hey, just continue to remove all that confusing functionality from Gnome. I don’t care. I voted with my feet.
Linus ”
Now, I don’t agree with the way he say it, but he definately makes an interesting point here.
Linus is a coder. Linus is a user.
Linus has coded at a higher level, and managed a larger, more complex project than 99.9% of people commenting here. He’s a better programmer, manager and visionary than me.
He is a user of desktop systems, and has contributed more, both in terms of patches and discussion to both Gnome and KDE than 99.9% of people commenting here.
He has good experience that should grant him authority, so if you disagree, you disagree; but don’t have a go at him.
And if he says that there is a problem, we as a community should listen, because he has experience that backs up what he is saying, and that should tell us that there are real problems that need to be addressed.
Personally I think that all of you guys have serious mental problems by discussing these topics with such passion. Have you ever seen the daylight in the last months?! Please crawl out of you parent’s cellar and find a girl to get laid, though I doubt that most of you know what that means without consulting google (with Firefox of course). That will maybe clear your twisted minds on life. And, to complete the picture, install Windows. It will save you all these “troubles” you have with that grey box I call computer, and you call girlfriend. Bye!
“And, to complete the picture, install Windows. It will save you all these “troubles” you have with that grey box I call computer, and you call girlfriend.”
Actually, Windows is much more time consuming to install and not as suitable for me as, say, Ubuntu or OpenBSD.
So no thanks, I’d rather not get gray hairs at a young age and I prefer to spend time with my girlfriend (of flesh and blood, not plastic…) rather being constantly infuriated by Windows and it’s many shortcomings.
//and I prefer to spend time with my girlfriend (of flesh and blood, not plastic…) rather being constantly infuriated by Windows and it’s many shortcomings.//
As I prefer to spend time with my wife and kids, (whom sometimes act as smart as plastic) … which is why I don’t use KDE or GNOME, both with astronomical shortcomings.
Actually I’m just reading this article for the sheer entertainment value of watching the aforementioned passion… I know what I like, and unless someone universally mandates that I can’t use it any more I really don’t care much.
*LOL*
Another mindless employee at the Centre for Organized Criminality in Redmond.
GNOME is a good system, indeed
“He has a responsibility too. Meaning he has to weigh his words and thoughts just a little bit more than people like you and me, with little to no authority or responsibility.”
The only ‘responsibility’ he ever signed up for was to make a kernel capable of ‘world domination’. Period. (And to have fun a get paid doing it.) That’s why Tux is the Logo NOT Linus. He’s an engineer not an Icon– and there is every indication that he prefers it that way.
All other considerations are JUST PR considerations. And are frankly ‘just crap’ for most people. This is why we have a (global) generation of politicians who are telegenic, try to be comedians, try to be empathetic, try to be these puritanical ‘superfolk’– who are forced to spend so much time on the PR game that they can’t actually govern…
You can’t blame an engineer for not wanting to go down that road…
The only ‘responsibility’ he ever signed up for was to make a kernel capable of ‘world domination’. Period.
You don’t always ‘sign up’ for responsibilities. Most of the time they come and go, whether you like it or not.
That’s why Tux is the Logo NOT Linus.
So, then why do people attack Bill Gates so much about Windows? I don’t see Bill Gates’ head as the Windows logo either.
You are aware that there is a gaping hole in your logic. Whatever Bill Gates sells you is what you have to use. With Linux, if you don’t like how Linus’s version of the kernel is, you can pick it up and make your own version. for better or for worse. I realise that this is unlikely to happen at this point given the momentum in the Linus version of things but it could have happened at any point along the way.
As far as Linus’s responsibilities are concerned, those lie in the perception of other people and Linus has never before suggested that he cares about people or their perceptions. So while I do not agree with his approach, I think he has been consistent about it.
Linus has no responsibility apart from being true to himself.
People attack Bill Gates because Bill Gates == Microsoft and Microsoft == Bill Gates.
However, Linus != Linux and Linux != Linus.
Linus is not responsible for Gnome developers, nor are they responsible for him.
Bill Gates are however responsible for MS. He IS Microsoft. His words are law – the same cannot be said about Linus.
> However, Linus != Linux and Linux != Linus.
Oh. But Linux DOES equal Linux. In the eyes of the press he does, in the eyes of the general public he does, in the eyes of corporate CEOs he does, etc. He is unofficial spokes person for Linux whether he likes it or not. And what he says and how he behaves reflects on the entire community, whether anyone likes it or not.
> Bill Gates are however responsible for MS. He
> IS Microsoft. His words are law – the same cannot
> be said about Linus.
I hate to burst your simplified dictatorship view of MS. But corporations don’t work that way. They have things like a board of directors and so on, which they are required to have by law. Bill Gates is just the most visible frontman at MS. The reality is when it comes to making real decisions, he probably makes less than Linus does.
Yes Linux == Linux. But Linus != Linux.
Linux is the kernel, Linus is the coder. And they’re spelled differently.
Gates has more influence in MS than Linus has in Gnome. But I don’t doubt Linus makes more real decisions than Bill Gates, but that is not relevant. What is relevant is the level at which these decisions are taken.
At that level Linus != Linux, but Gates == Microsoft.
If the operating system wasn’t that close to his name people would have stopped listening to him by now.
Seriously. His quote sounds like a challenge to the GNOME users. He is saying improve your code. Read what he ‘saying’ and not just the type.
No, he called the Gnome developers “f–king idiots” and encouraged everyone to use KDE instead. That’s hardly what I would call constructive criticism. Please read the whole thread. I think the Gnome developers responded fairly reasonably and rationally.
“Seriously. His quote sounds like a challenge to the GNOME users. He is saying improve your code. Read what he ‘saying’ and not just the type.”
I agree 100%!
I prefer KDE.
In some way: Finally some regognition that gnome succeeded in being the most user-friendly desktop.
I use KDE, also for the power-options, but Linus should have discussions with a more polite tone. It’s all about choice. If linus doesn’t like gnome, fine, use KDE, but don’t troll like this.
Sorry to point out the obvious, but Gnome is just not designed for people like Linus. Its not designed for your run of the mill geek who hacks kernels and knows what .conf links to which menu tab.
Gnome is designed to have sensible defaults, present options based on the necessary configuration choices, and culminate in a simplistic environment.
Linus – fair enough, if you like KDE, use it. I’m sure it makes you happy. But do not complain about another open source project just because it doesn’t fit your neeeds. That’s just unprofessional and unnecessary.
It seems like people are just modding up pro gnome articles even if they don’t really have much substance.
Yes, it works. You get the text edit and you put the path to the file.
It would be right if the dialog closed immediatly opening the given file, but instead, it opens the directory containing the file and selects the file automatically. So, if you have a huge directory (as /usr/bin is) you have to wait until it shows all the entries of that directory only to open a file that you know exactly where it is.
http://osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=12956&comment_id=71968
“Torvalds is becoming irrelevant as his child grows out of his control. It seems he has become resentful of this fact and now resorts to cheap remarks in a futile attempt to get some attention. ”
i don’t see this trend either. wanna back up those statements?
torvalds can say what he likes, just like you.
so i use twm while X server in windows. and when using linux i use fvwm
Yes torvalds is, also I hate kde, I hate it. how am I supposed to watch my edecational video’s(sure) if I cant see a small image of what it is. So please tell me!
Personally i use gnome because the billion of check box and all the redundant k* apps of KDE makes me sick, but i also respect the opinion of Linus who seems to be coherent with his needs and i appreciate his pragmatism over the ‘ideology’ or ‘philosophy’ which are the common motto in the free community.
and all the redundant k* apps of KDE makes me sick
Its worth noting that you can avoid this by primarily utilising kdebase on it’s own (with deps)… – in this “minimal” format “KDE” makes a pleasing, “lightweight” desktop
is why I prefer Gnome. I do the absolute minimum of customization on all OS’s: maybe a different (plain color) desktop if the stock one is too annoying, but no themes, etc, ever and very rarely anything else. KDE is a giant mass of features I don’t need or want, and I’d rather not have to sort throught them. For that matter, I’d use Gnome for spatial browsing alone (and I don’t have to set that!)
The only time I ever use KDE intentionally is for KDevelop, which just doesn’t work with Gnome (understandably.)
This will be a long long (C99) thread, for nothing!
Linus has right to an opinion, probably it’s not a polite opinion but is an opinion.
And here in Europe, i can say that we understand him, because we like KDE, but every project has a plus, GNOME has it, KDE has it, XFCE has. But i do really understand his opinion has “a move” to GNOME dev’s to be more tenacious.
It would be better try, to understand what he is saying, that just troll, because of the title…
>> And here in Europe, i can say that we understand him
Euh… as a French GNOME user (and lover), I can tell you that, here in Europe, we don’t understand him
Please don’t over-generalize. There are people in Europe who prefer GNOME over KDE.
> as a French GNOME user (and lover), I can tell you
> that, here in Europe, we don’t understand him
Looks like france has a general problem in understanding things. Refering to the recent happenings with nightly car BBQ.
Do you mean that poor people burn cars down because they are force to use KDE ? That would be understandable
No, seriously, you’re just an ignorant racist.
IF you look at statistics, you’ll find i’m right. Sorry, but you may like gnome but in europe kde is the preferencial DE/WM. At my university, the stats are obvious 68% kde, 23% gnome, 9% others.
>> IF you look at statistics, you’ll find i’m right.
OK, like which one ?
Who tha f*** are you to say that in Europe most of users use KDE ? I’m from Slovenia and I use GNOME since day one.
What are you going to do now, attack me ? attack my country ?
It’s like I’d say “white people use GNOME” wtf ?!
> Who tha f*** are you to say that in Europe most of
> users use KDE ? I’m from Slovenia and I use GNOME
> since day one.
>
> What are you going to do now, attack me ? attack my country ?
I for one would politely suggest opening a dictionary and looking up the meaning of the word “most”.
> It’s like I’d say “white people use GNOME” wtf ?!
Aren’t you going *way* overboard here?
I think you’ll find that since ubuntu came into existence gnome usage in europe has risen quite a bit. All my friends run gnome for example (while they used the run a variety of WM/DE’s). The standard DE at my university is also gnome… (on debian
)
People are all talking about users… But what about developers???
Have you ever tried to develop a Gnome application? Do you know what it takes to integrate applications in Gnome?
Have you ever comprared GTK to QT?
Do you know what integration is? Have you ever tried to integrate GTK applications on a Gnome desktop? It’s a nightmare!
For software developers GTK/Gnome is a complete mess! Sure it might be “simple” for new users but there won’t be any applications if developers don’t write for it; and most developers I know think GTK is a mess.
Have you ever tried to develop a Gnome application? Do you know what it takes to integrate applications in Gnome?
yes and yes. It really is not hard : use most stock objects from GTK and Gnome.
Have you ever comprared GTK to QT?
Yes, a long time ago. Came to the conclusion that they can’t be compared, one use C and the other C++.
Do you know what integration is? Have you ever tried to integrate GTK applications on a Gnome desktop? It’s a nightmare!
No it’s not. You don’t have to do anything, except perhaps following the HIG. If you really want to integrate a GTK app on Gnome, you have to transform your app in a Gnome app. Of course it’s harder, as to make things correctly, you have to provide documentation, i18n, a11y, follow the HIG, …
For software developers GTK/Gnome is a complete mess! Sure it might be “simple” for new users but there won’t be any applications if developers don’t write for it; and most developers I know think GTK is a mess.
And what is your connection between “mess” and “developers don’t write for it” ?
Gnome is full of cruft that developers try hard to clean up and it lacks good up to date documentation or tutorials.
It’s not perfect, but I don’t think it’s a mess.
As few others have mentioned I’d like to like Gnome – it looks so nice and clean – but until it can come up with a working drag and drop menu editor it’s going out the window as far as I’m concerned. Yes I know you can delve here and there in bits of xml or whatever, but as a user I’m not interested in that. At least KDE gives that amount of control in keeping its mess of appliKations under Kontrol – having said that, why isn’t there some Kind of app name management in force – I mean Krita??? ok that’s ‘K rita’ – sounds like ‘K writer’, must be an editor?? Nope! Kooka – scanning??? doh! noatun???? I mean come on folks what kind of impression are you trying to give the business world that may be looking at linux. Suits are not interested in Kewl so grow up and sort out this mess – please!
Reminder – I’m pro KDE
“Kind of app name management in force – I mean Krita??? ok that’s ‘K rita’ – sounds like ‘K writer’, must be an editor?”
“Krita” is the swedish words for “crayon” and “rita” is the swedish word for “draw”.
I’d love a drag and drop menu editor in GNOME. KDE has one, but I always manage to make it loose some items or entire menus after a couple of changes.
In the end, I prefer no functionality, rather than a buggy one. And god knows I really really want a menu editor!
i agree with torvalds on this. but for me the eclipsing factor is that gnome appears to be smooth and simple, yet uinderneath is a morass of worms. kde is simpler in structure, better designed, more text-based (gconf?), and less bloaty. i can use any UI – so i use one that i have some faith in. cleaner design wins out anyday. for the record i use XFCE but wish it wasn’t so tied up with gtk/gnome.
Bring it on, Gnome lovers!!!
Finally, someone who might get listened to has said something about the dumbing down of the interface in Gnome. Its a useless piece of crap, and while thats sensational, the fact that I can’t do half the things I need in Gnome is just as bad, so bad, I refuse to use it. Who am I? Noone in the end, but theres a bloody lot of noones out there with the same feeling. Get your act together you GUI nazis.
“You don’t always ‘sign up’ for responsibilities. Most of the time they come and go, whether you like it or not.”
In most cases those things fall into these categories:
-Things that are your wards (Children, pets, etc.)
-Basic responsibilities in relation to the ‘public good’ (Not storing radioactive waste in the basement, not robbing the public purse, etc.).
Now, you could make a case that the kernel is Linus’ ‘child’, or the Linux movement is his ‘child’ [The FSF would get cranky though
]. But, I suspect that his children are his ‘child(ren)’ You could also try to make the case that him being a good ‘PR’ lapdog benefits the ‘public good'(It being free software and all). True enough. But umm, doesn’t him being a good software engineer benefit the ‘public good’ more? (And wasn’t that his original contribution to the public good?) Would him being a good PR poster boy help him engineer a better kernel? Or would it just be a distraction? Would it prevent him from speaking his mind on ‘kernel issues’? Given his brand of wit, we are probably better off with Tux, and more of those glossy IBM commercials.
“So, then why do people attack Bill Gates so much about Windows? I don’t see Bill Gates’ head as the Windows logo either.”
Because bill gates is using Bill Gates as a PR tool. Bill Gates speech on the XBox launch, Bill Gates on the Forbes 500, Bill Gates the philanthropist, Bill Gates this— Bill Gates that- He’s deliberately commodified himself. Of course, the he (and the PR industry) wouldn’t be able to do this if there wasn’t something in the ‘genome’ that draws people to this sort of thing.
When was the last round of Linus media interviews? It was over the SCO debacle if I’m not mistaken. Quite a bit different that the ‘all press is good press’ mentality, IMHO.
many “simple” users like gui effects and download a barrage of spywares, etc. to achieve it, aeonflux screensavers, etc.
I guarantee that many “simple” users would prefer kde simply because it is easy to get the wallpapers to rotate, however it lacks screensavers integrated out of the box.
cybical but true.
javajazz
If X + mylib_this_week wasn’t such as mess then it might get more developers.
Yes KDE is “better” than Gnome, from both the useability and coding perspective
If KDE could see its way to letting people write commercial code without the need for a fee (dump the dual liscence in QT) then more people would back the clear winner – in the longer time the good gnome applications would be migrated (gimp, evolution etc) and the best bits of open office (ie the not slow buggy and crap bits) would be migrated to KOffice …. then and only then would *nix have a true consistent desktop the genral public would take an interest in.
For a long time I ran Fluxbox and just started Gnome and KDE programs from that. Once I met an ftp client that didn’t fit on a 1024*768 screen (KDE based) I decided I was never going that way. It may be easier to perform certain actions in KDE, but if that’s the case I’m not noticing the lack of the possibility in Gnome – which is what I’ve moved over to in the meanwhile. Gnome is imho the closest thing to a consistent and user friendly UI in the non-OS X *nix world. If an app only exists in a KDE version I don’t even want to use it today.
So you take a fundamentalist approach on the software you use just because you have seen one piece of bad software?
*sigh*
I use Gnome every day and KDE from time to time.
KDE always reminds me of windows 98 on steroids.
Gnome seems to do very little. I usually use the shell to do anything useful.
Neither of these user interfaces are very useful and they both clutter the display with garbage control panels.
Someone please port the BEOS tracker to Linux.
Both Gnome and KDE simply suck.
Lots of people have been complaining that Gnome is the only OS project that provides LESS functionality release after release. Yet, the “Deciders” of de-facto standard for Linux desktops continue to moan about “Fitt’s Law”. Face it, Fitt was just some dood and his “Law” isn’t a law in the sense of the “Law of gravity”. Making something useable for a majority of grandmothers does not make it any more useable for me. I’m with Linus… voting with my feet. Cya Gnome!
I’ve said it before, Linus has lost the plot. This hasn’t been a good year for him in terms of outbursts.
Simplicity is a good goal to strive for, and the Gnome team should be congratulated for it. Perhaps if Linus storve for simplicity Linux would be more successful in the desktop arena. I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve had to rebuild a driver because the versioning if different between kernel versions.
Linus prefers KDE and finds Gnome’s approach inflexible. Does anyone really find that surprising. For some reason people are attacking him because he’s pointing out the obvious! What do you think the HIG and removing all the options actually means to people whose nature is to modify and tweak things?
How do you decide which DE or WM you setup for a user? Or do you force everyone use what you use? If you believe in a DE monoculture … why the hell are you using Linux with hundreds of distros and over a dozen WMs?
Cheers
rob
“For some reason people are attacking him because he’s pointing out the obvious!”
People wouldnt have attacked him if his post hadnt been so unnecessarily inflammatory.
Maybe he’s morphing into Theo DeRaadt?
> People wouldnt have attacked him if his post hadnt been
> so unnecessarily inflammatory.
Heul doch!!!!
Its about time Linus stops beating about the bush and say what he really thinks.
Which is the lead up to the next statement logical question: if not you [Linus Torvalds], then who are we targeting? I think the answer there is reasonably well understood in the GNOME design communities but misunderstood outside of that core group. At this point we’re interested in corporate users (office, productivity, mobile users), fixed function users (people who do only one or two things) and some subset of hackers. But I guess not hackers who want to configure everything themselves.
This is the key quote from the exchange. It pays re-reading. Many of the frustrations people have about Gnome can be explained by this. Gnome is going after a quite specific group of users, so comparing Gnome and KDE is chalk and cheese.
Then there is the self-regarding little mention of “hackers” – nothing as dull as developer or software engineer for these guys.
I guess one wonders why the Gnome Foundation are so poor at communicating their goals. If more folks realized that Gnome has the limitations these Apple-toting “hackers” say it has, then far fewer people might be making it their default desktop.
Linus is a hacker. He hacks the kernel. He’s one of those bearded weirdos (even if he doesn’t have a beard)
What did you expect from one of them ?
If a desktop project listens to kernel hackers’ opinion in usability or design, it has already failed, IMO.
Dear Child,
Welcome to your new laptop. Your laptop runs the Linux 2.6.12 kernel. If you find the performace of your kernel lacking or there are features you feel missing your are welcome to modify the kernel configuration and recompile it using the GCC compiler. With a working kernal you are now ready for your transition in to the 1st world.
Child: Whats a laptop? Whats a Kernel? Whats a GCC?
At school you may be asked to write some kind of report. To do this you may use either the emacs or vi editor. Dont be confused intially by how difficult they are to use, after 2 years of use you will find their keybings to be great time savers.
Child: Whats a program? Whats an Editor? Whats a keybinding?
Now child, if you are faced with a problem that you do no know the answer to then you may use ‘the internet’ to find that answer. I find the best way to do this is to use IRC or usenet. Dont be put off by the difficulty in using them, there are plenty of programs you can use to read the information available. There is also this new thing called the ‘www’. I do not know too much about that but there is this wonderful browser called lynx which may help you browse the ‘www’. Remember to learn lynx’s keybindings though!
Child: Whats a internet?
Now I also recommend the KDE desktop environment. Dont worry if it takes you a while to configure it how you like, the increased efficieny in which you can navigate around your filesystem and launch programs will be worth it. Speaking of which, KDE is great because if you do not like how a program operates there are 7 different alternatives programs capable of acomplising any given task already installed. Dont forget to set each programs keybings though!
Child: WTF??? – Throws laptop down well
And this is why linus does not design desktop environments. Please no-one take this to heart
yeah! tell em Linus!!!
KDE Rules!!!
in your face Gnome!!!
i quit liking gnome when Gnome-1.4 was made obsolete, the 2.xx series totally sucks!!!
I think you forgot some “!!11!!1!!!!!1!!!1 roflolzorz” at the end of each sentence.
Maybe now we’ll listen to Jeff Waugh’s opinion on kernel development…
Known little English+Hard to go Official+Can they do with my mind?
So,I use Windows
for biz ,I cost a lot,But for personal ,just no more than 1$.
A system can’t input Chinese is not a system for Chinese.
不会英文+没有代理Ç 78;官方报告错误+没他&# 20204;会受理的信心
Actually if you read the Linus press carefully, when he gets annoyed (as he has here), he’ll say exactly what he means and diplomacy be damned.
you have to switch to mark mode first
or click an the CMD window’s Icon ,
property=> Edit option.=>Quick Edit Mode