In response to Apple’s lawsuit against HTC, Jonathan Schwartz, former CEO of Sun Microsystems, has written a very intriguing blog post providing an insight into how major companies like Apple and Microsoft treat patents. He recounts two occasions on which Apple and Microsoft threatened to sue Sun – and how Sun retorted.
“I feel for Google – Steve Jobs threatened to sue me, too.” That’s the telling start of Schwartz’ blog post. He recalls how after Sun unveiled its Project Looking Glass 3D interface, Apple threatened to sue Sun. “Steve called my office to let me know the graphical effects were “stepping all over Apple’s IP”,” Schwartz recounts, “If we moved forward to commercialize it, “I’ll just sue you”.”
Schwartz’ retort to Steve Jobs’ threat was clear and concise.
My response was simple. “Steve, I was just watching your last presentation, and Keynote looks identical to Concurrence – do you own that IP?†Concurrence was a presentation product built by Lighthouse Design, a company I’d help to found and which Sun acquired in 1996. Lighthouse built applications for NeXTSTEP, the Unix based operating system whose core would become the foundation for all Mac products after Apple acquired NeXT in 1996. Steve had used Concurrence for years, and as Apple built their own presentation tool, it was obvious where they’d found inspiration. “And last I checked, MacOS is now built on Unix. I think Sun has a few OS patents, too.†Steve was silent.
Schwartz says they never heard anything from Steve again on this topic. Sun eventually abandoned Project Looking Glass, but he claims that had nothing to do with the legal threats; enterprise customers simply weren’t waiting for a new desktop.
Microsoft tried to do something similar to Sun. Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer came to meet with Scott McNealy (Sun’s then CEO); Greg Papadopoulos (Sun’s CTO) and Schwartz were present as well. The meeting was about Sun’s OpenOffice, and how OpenOffice infringed upon patents owned by Microsoft. Gates was clear. “Microsoft owns the office productivity market, and our patents read all over OpenOffice,” Gates said, “We’re happy to get you under license.” Something clearly incompatible with the idea of Free and open source.
Schwartz more or less anticipated Gates’ words, and retorted Gates in the same way he retorted Jobs. “We’ve looked at .NET, and you’re trampling all over a huge number of Java patents,” Schwartz told Gates, “So what will you pay us for every copy of Windows?” Schwartz states the meeting didn’t last long.
According to Schwartz, using patents offensively is a clear sign of desperation, and such threats or even lawsuits generally have the opposite effect: they fuel the growth of the product or company getting sued. “Having watched this movie play out many times, suing a competitor typically makes them more relevant, not less,” Schwartz explains, “Developers I know aren’t getting less interested in Google’s Android platform, they’re getting more interested – Apple’s actions are enhancing that interest.”
As soon as Google puts its money where its mouth is, i.e., they sue Apple, the interest in Android will only grow even further.
…until a nutcase comes on the scene. Sooner or later there will always be someone who thinks they can “win” the war and starts lobbing patents around. For MAD to work everyone has to be afraid of losing. If Google decides to come out swinging…
–bornagainpenguin
It only works for big established guys. If you are a tiny start up and Apples sues then you are f–ked. Exactly the same as if you are a small Iowa corn farmer and Monsanto sues you for corn patent infringement. You either loose you farm in court or you grow roundup ready gene junk corn.
The patent system is broken, broken, broken. It just creates stupid monopolies that are no good for humanity. For a few stock holders sure, but for us as a species certainly not.
Hey, if it’s good for a few stock holders, you’ve your proof that patent system is *not* broken!
Plus, who cares about humanity anymore?
No, not really. AMD and intel sue each other periodically, without destroying either company. Its really just how they negotiate a cross licensing deal.
That’s more brinkmanship than actual use of weapons. They sue, the battle lines draw up, swords are drawn… and then they settle. I don’t think those cases usually proceed all the way to judgment. Correct me if I’m wrong?
No, you’re right of course, they do settle. But not before suing. Its more like a war where the two sides understand they will both limit casualties. Maybe like 18th century European war, where the opposing generals would meet on the battlefield for a cup of tea before the battle.
I submit it yesterday, haven’t seen any response yet.
http://technologizer.com/2010/03/08/future-windows/
Edited 2010-03-09 23:32 UTC
The comments’ section is not the place for this. Please use email. End of thread, please.
Milk-a-what? JS is a guy that took a company and sold it for next to nothing on the dollar. Why should I care at all what he says or does now that he has been paid off to disappear.
Considering how much scrutiny the deal went through by both the US and the EU, you have absolutely no basis to make that accusation. Besides, the SEC would not have allowed it if it was going to greatly rip off investors. I wish someone else had bought Sun, like IBM, but Oracle walked up with the money.
The USA tries to export its rotten software patent system via “free trade agreements”, which are really attempts to restrict software development outside of America’s Silicon Valley. Japan and Australia are two countries I know of that bought into America’s idiotic software patents in order to secure a FTA.
Almost makes me cheer as I see America collapsing. And I’m a US citizen! But that collapse is in part caused by software patents and the DMCA, as well as a host of other economic and legal policies designed to give Big Corp control over the economy. Look at the disastrous health care system, as an example.
The bigger they are, the harder they fall. With unfortunate consequences for the rest of us.
When America is finally reduced to a smoking ruin by its own greed, hopefully small countries with uncomplicated legal systems will lead the way in technological advancement.
In the meantime, developers for Linux and other free software would be wise to locate their products abroad, in countries outside the reach of America’s patent trolls. It’s ironic that programmers in places like China and Cuba have less to fear than those in the USA (the “bastion of freedom”).
Edited 2010-03-10 02:15 UTC
Things like ACTA, NAFTA, etc, are clear examples of economic colonialism – attempting to influence the policies of other countries, mainly for the benefit of domestic commercial interests.
With the old approach, a wealthy country would approach a poor country & offer to help them out with things like telecommunications infrastructure. The catch is that the poor country must agree to allow foreign ownership of that infrastructure once it’s in place – which almost invariably means that the poor country ends up perpetually beholden to foreign businesses for much of their basic infrastructure.
And now, the entertainment industry has gotten in on the act. God help us all (and I say that as an atheist).
Sadly, I could not agree more. I did not think I would live to see the fall of New Rome (and I am a US citizen), but this is a prime example of how greed is sinking the ship.
WOW. Comments like this amaze me, and its amazing to see them modded up so high. Now don’t get me wrong: I despise software patents. I think you’re right they’re used for greed and I think its deplorable and needs to change. And I have major major problems with Free Trade, though probably not for the same reasons as you. (I’m more concerned about the effect free trade has on poorer nations of the world, but thats a whole ‘nother can of worms we’re not going to open here.) But that said….
Really??? And…
Honestly?????? More freedom. In CHINA? Seriously? Sorry, you don’t know what your saying. Unless you mean the freedom to only have one child and the freedom to have a forced abortion if you do get pregnant a second time. Or the freedom to be arrested and jailed indefinitely for no reason, with no due process, and no recourse, just because you’re suspected to be anti-government. Ironically, if these anti-USA comments you posted here were anti-PRC comments and you were a Chinese citizen, you’d probably have someone knocking on your door about them.
Somewhere along the line people got the idea that a patriot was a person who blindly supported his country no matter what it does and decided that made patriot a bad word. Actually, a true patriot will criticize the faults in his country because he loves it enough to want it to be better. You’re right: patent law is broken, and we need to fix it, not try to spread it around the world. But your comments, my friend, are not constructive criticism aimed at effecting change. Thats blind rage and hate. Next will you post a 6 page manifesto and fly your Pieper into an IRS building?
You live in the most affluent country in the world. I have been to some of the poorest places in the world, and believe me, they have bigger things to worry about than software patents. If thats your biggest bone to pick, count your blessings. And, unlike in China or Cuba, if you don’t like it here you are free to leave. I hear Greece is nice this time of year.
Well, your comments amaze me too.
Though you are not a Chinese, you should know how many people it has.As a Chinese, I adimit China is not so affluent as USA (of course, we don’t have so much government loan from other countries, either). You know why? Because we have such a large population. In the past, many poor families had five or more babies and they became even poorer. Many families didn’t have enough food to foster their children, let alone education. When We tried to limit our numbers, you said it was human rights abuse. Different countries have different circumstances and produce different policies. Don’t just stay in your “affluent” country and criticize those development countries for no human-rights or freedom, please!
In my opinion, patent right is necessary to protect the rights and interests of the research personnel. But it can’t be used as a tool for seeking excessive profits. Otherwise, piracies will wreak havoc.
And neither the issue between Apple and Sun nor Microsoft and Sun is nothing to do with our consumers. Any how, it’s nothing but a redistribution of the cake.
Not only was Schwartz considered a a-hole among the actual developers who developed Concurrence, most everyone in the company wants us, NeXT, to buy Lighthouse and not Sun, so they can see Schwartz leave.
Now that Oracle [Ellison being Job’s best friend] owns Sun and is purging the likes of Schwartz, perhaps Oracle might be smart to start producing OS X Cocoa applications?
Anyone who think Schwartz is a source of knowledge about the war that goes on between competitors is fooling themselves.
How he was ever given the chance to control the direction of Sun speaks volumes to the ineptitude of Sun and why they were dirt cheap for Oracle to swallow up.
What I can’t work out is the fact that Sun had OpenStep, why did the embrace GNOME? why not create a great user interface and build upon the NextStep code base? the only thing I could never get over about Sun is so much valuable IP is simply sitting there rotting as the executives have greater interesting fingering each other than actually asking themselves how to turn Solaris, SPARC and Java into something that is beyond a niche market.
But then again, take a look at the marketing team at Sun – Jesus Christ, a deaf, dumb, colour blind mute could do a better job at advocating the technologies of Sun. As for the rest of the management – holy shitballs; come on, if you’re getting paid 10 times more than I do, I do expect you to be 10 times better than I am.
I concur.
And all this while Schwartz was in charge. If there is anything to learn from this guy, it is pretty much what not to do.
I should think that a perfect response to patent trolls (in this case Microsoft and Apple) who come knocking on your door asking “how much are you going to pay us for code that you wrote?” is to reply, just as Schwartz did, … “I don’t know, but considering that you have more copies sold, the real question would be how much are you going to pay us for code that you wrote?”.
I should think that Jobs and Gates, in this case, showed pretty much what not to do, rather than Schwartz.
I was replying to kaiwai.
Of course, if the shit truly starts to come down, be prepared to see your saint FOSS companies (IBM, Google, etc.) to be engaged in the same game.
Edited 2010-03-10 10:19 UTC
Ups.
I forgot.
One of your saint FOSS companies is already doing that. Nokia.
You do realize the main reason no one has really gone after linux or any linux distro is because of IBM and the number of patents they have and the pledge from them to use them in defense of linux. IBM probably has a patent for patent trolling somewhere…
The majority of the patents Apple is using against HTC are hardware related and I have little doubt they’d drop all the software based ones if IBM started making noise because that not a counter lawsuit anyone can likely win or even want to try.
Yes I realize that and I agree with that. I used the ugly word above to indicate the doomsday scenario for the IT world. If that ever comes, they sue each other, FOSS or not.
But if that is needed to reform the U.S. patent system, then be it.
That’s BS, they are all software patents:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/02/apple-vs-htc-a-patent-breakdown/
EDIT: ok, probably not this (but everyone is infringing on this one):
Patent #7,383,453: Conserving Power By Reducing Voltage Supplied To An Instruction-Processing Portion Of A Processor
Edited 2010-03-10 13:17 UTC
Who do you file suit against? 99% of the fortune 500 let alone fortune 1000 companies? Governments? Home users? Product manufacturers? The rest of the world outside the USPTO butchered America?
If things go that far south, it won’t be just IBM and the other FOSS patent consortium folk joining it; it’ll be the entire computing world telling the attacking corporation to go get stuffed.
This is an interesting summary of the issue at present:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458849-16.html
especially here:
”
Linux kernel founder Linus Torvalds has suggested, “It’s certainly a lot more likely that Microsoft violates patents than Linux does.”
”
Here:
”
Maybe Microsoft fears daylight shining on its Linux claims, a privilege that the Linux developers don’t reserve for themselves, with 100 percent of the Linux code completely open for review (and modification if Microsoft could actually point to concrete violations in the code).
”
And:
”
Microsoft can’t afford to take on a party with a big vested interest in Linux, just as it can’t afford to sue the entire planet, which has moved to Linux en masse, from the U.S. government to every single company in the Fortune 500.
“
I agree and I find it funny how people have marked your post down given that you were evaluating his whole time in charge of Sun and not just the two isolated situations confronting Microsoft and Apple.
I find it funny how people turn this into an Apple or Microsoft basher but ignoring that people like me don’t give a crap about these companies beating each other up. All I care about is a laptop that works – and if that means that I purchase it off Apple then so be it. My life and my computer experience aren’t dictated by the political events swirling around these companies – I ask whether I can do my work.
So great, there are some people who like to sit around with a self righteous attitude of, “I don’t use software from companies who sue over software patents!” – great, so great – you put your productivity second to a feeling of self righteous indignation but some of us, however, have work todo and don’t have such luxuries.
Edited 2010-03-10 22:36 UTC
You do know that with that statement you are exhibiting the same attitude, just from the other side of the coin? Smug superiority is smug superiority, no matter which side of the fence it eminates from. A classic example of pot calling the kettle black if I’ve ever seen one.
Where did I say I was superior – show me, word for word, where I said *EXPLICITLY* that I said I was superior? either put up or shut up. Stating that I don’t have the luxury of being able to beat my chest about being moral makes no claim of being superior – if you make such a view then obviously you’re the one with the issue, not me.
Wow, looks like I touched a nerve. I didn’t say you *said* it, I said you were exhibiting the same attitude you were accusing others of, and that attitude was one of smug superiority and moral high ground. That is what you were accusing some people who stand on principal of exhibiting, and yet you yourself just did the same but from the opposite side of the fence. That is what I said, and obviously I hit pretty damn close to the mark the way you got all defensive. It’s amazing what you can find out from reactions.
I have a few netbooks, a laptop, a handheld Internet tablet, a router/NAS device and a couple of desktop systems that all work very well.
I don’t put my productivity second at all … all of my machines work very well indeed. They are all fully up to date, entirely paid for, all are virus and malware free, all are 100% legally licensed (but none rely on any subscriptions or EULAs), and they all are entirely capable of the many tasks that I and my family have for them.
I don’t use software from companies who sue over software patents.
Edited 2010-03-11 06:16 UTC
Hey, look what I found. I might even think about upgrading that laptop:
http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/03/10/system-76-lemur-review/
Looks like a system that was made just for me.
That’s spectacularly naive
How the hell is it naive? I’m sorry but if you’re getting paid ten times more than I – I expect a massive gap in terms of knowledge, expertise and vision than what I can provide. You’re paid for your skill set – if you’re getting paid more than I do and your skill set sucks more than mine then I have to ask how the hell you got the job in the first place. Same can be said for CEO’s – if you’re going to be paid $6million a year like the Telecom NZ CEO does then I expect to be wowed by wisdom that I could never have hoped to have acquired in my mortal life – justify your pay on something empirical rather than the current situation of an incestuous orgy of executive movements from one company to another after running the last into the ground.
Edited 2010-03-10 22:25 UTC
Do you honestly think that people get paid on the basis of intelligence work and ability?
The CEOs of many companies do not work harder or know more than say a say the successful head teacher of a good school yet earn what 10 to 100 times as much.
Let me remind you of the banking industry
And what if Apple and Sun actually made the great and removed the ‘silly’ yet-to-be-Darwin under pinnings of NeXTSTEP and instead let Solaris and ‘OPENSTEP’ merge permanently together to form a sound Unix with the best of both worlds – all the time!
Imagine Solaris (ZFS, DTRACE, Zones, up-to-date-Java* etc.) + Cocoa + Aqua + Quartz as it might look together … It could be sweet …
*) Yes, I know Java is Suns way of payback for OPENSTEP’s YellowBox environment, but anyhow …
Openstep + OpenSolaris even without any major re-structing would still be a damn sight better than the current situation of GNOME; half finished API’s, notification of transitions to new API and depreciations of old ones with the maintainers of GNOME components too lazy to update their code, then lets not get started on the Linux’ism that is in GNOME to the point that any attempt to get working on a non-Linux like system is met with mountains of patches just to get things working – and worse the maintainers refusing to accept those patches in the main project.
With such a clusterf-ck of a project – why didn’t Sun just go out, hire 1000 programmers on 3 year contracts and tell then, “embrace OpenStep and do something sexy” because within those three years we would have seen something more productive than the crap that has come out at the current moment.
Just because you don’t like the guy it doesn’t mean he’s wrong.
Killing the messenger is generally easier than killing the message.
Sadly, it’s also more effective.
Nice retorts there by Schwartz. I hope I soon read about something that Google and HTC came up with.
I love this quote:
That’s how he makes his money, and that’s why it’s an untenable business model for the long-term. (Pretty profitable short-term though.)