Dell chairman Michael Dell has cast doubt on the potential of Linux on the desktop, and also distanced himself from his own investment company’s $99.5m investment in Red Hat. “The Linux market started on the server and it’s stayed on the server,” he told a select group of journalists in London.
Michael Dell doubts desktop Linux demand
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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This might be a bit cliché, but what the hell…
“If you build it, people will come.”
With so many desktop-oriented distros, commercial and non-commercial, I haven’t seen too many of them go belly-up. I think that says a lot. If you build a free and open platform that can compete on the desktop w/ Windows/MacOS, why *wouldn’t* people use it? If it works and it’s free, then it’s as good as gold.
If you build it, people will not surely come. This is an odd statement. Everyone with any idea realize that Sales is what it’s about, sales and marketing. I can see that it’ll be tricky for dell to market Linux for the desktop. I mean what can he say?
Do you wanna loose compatibility with other companies?
Do you want your staff to relearn from scratch?
Do you want to switch distro on a weekly basis due to lack of continuance?
Do you wanna limit the amount of powerful apps you want to use?
Do you wanna pay the same amount of money for this as you do for a functional copy of XP?
Geee, I’m sure the market would be convinced…. now don’t give me this crap about free (because Red Hat WILL charge) and the average desktop user don’t give darn about some GPL issues. Furthermore he wouldn’t really earn big bucks going this route so why waste the time?
Not that I have ANY problem with Jobs for ppl in India and elsewhere but Mr.Dell didnt’t seem to think that a spoken language barrier added to a computing language barrier would be a bad idea eiter.
-nX
Open Source on the desktop will be a reality soon.
Not only various Linux distros are already geared towards it; there’s also the PC-BSD project (still in its infancy) which is putting a layer of graphic “user-friendliness” over FreeBSD, thus bringing to non-tech users the stability and security of the *BSD systems.
And there’s plenty of software available for the *nix OSes, mostly free (in all senses). So, the potential of BSD & Linux on the desktop is not even an issue.
Mr Dell , I read the comment you made on the 16th of mai 2005 in London (1) ,and I am very surprised that a Man of your inteligence and of your vision whas as misinformed as you where.
In your comment your quoted at saying that the GNU/Linux ( thats the legal and proper way to talk about it. (2) ) market started in the server and as stayed on the server. I am sorry but you are wrong. GNU/Linux started on the computer of one student in 1991 , who could not afford any Unix software/desktop of is own.
You also say that all your desktop are made to run GNU/Linux , which is false , but I doubt your willing to backup your false claim and take my bet of testing all your desktop solution ( Desktop , workstation , laptop ) and everyone of them who dont let GNU/Linux instal on them you will have to pay 10 million USD to any GNU/Linux project of my choice.
Now I really laughged when you said this is more of a demand issue then a suply issue. Because the demand is there , your just unable to supply it , I suspect due mostly to contract agreement with Microsoft. You have the possibility to offer more to your client by offering Dual boot system ( microsoft + GNU/Linux ) or by offering GNU/Linux system wich is cheaper to acquire as an OS and offer more software by default then Microsoft and is proven as more secure. You are really doing a diservice to your client by offering them an inferior product.
One Question I have is why do you recommand Windows Xp professional ? you like your user to be abale to have there personnal and work data stolen because of the many security holes in the OS or you like it because then you can also sell them some security software to protect there OS bad design in security ?
you said : “We have maybe 150 different product platforms. Should we test and have Linux drivers for every different model we have? ”
My answer is yes , why ? Because thats what you do for Microsoft and if you unwhilling to do it inside your company or pay for it , just offer the hardware your unable to make work to the GNU/Linux distribution out there and give them the full spec and tecnical data and they will come up with a free and working solution.
You said : “To support it on every single model, every single configuration? No, we’re a for-profit business”
Then why do you pay for Microsoft when GNU/Linux company are whilling to do it for free , something given for free in my mind will equal more profit at the end then something wich you always have to pay for and that everybody else in the industry is offering.
Your company whas not around when Microsoft whas created , this time around you will only have yourself to blame , when all the GNU/Linux market will have evaded you and are making some company directly in competition with you do more sale an pass you over as the best computer company in the world. People whant complete integrated solution , this is what Apple as shown the world in the last two years.
(1) http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=A4F AA652-C93C-461F-9292-A0034A72F006
(2) GNU/Linux first release whas under another license , it never took off , Linus torvalds chnage dit to GNU and the rest is history , also linux refer to the kernel only as GNU/Linux refer to the complete OS and set of software.
“Do you wanna loose compatibility with other companies? ”
GNU/Linux is compatible with Microsoft and complying with every open formats and know communication format availaible that is not totaly closed.
“Do you want your staff to relearn from scratch?”
relearn ? They have to learn it first to relearn it , only Microsoft product can say that they change enough that you needed to relearn them ( 3.x … 95 … 98 … 2k … xp … and soon maybe in this decade longhorn ).
“Do you want to switch distro on a weekly basis due to lack of continuance?”
continuance ? why switch distro ? just have to pick a real free and Open Source distro : Mandriva , Ubuntu , Debian.
” Do you wanna limit the amount of powerful apps you want to use? ”
There are no powerfull Apps that come with Windows or are made freely avaliable for/from Windows. there are tons that come out everyday for GNU/Linux, even the simple OS upgrade are to be bought.
“Do you wanna pay the same amount of money for this as you do for a functional copy of XP? ”
XP by itself is not functionnal , you have to adds 10 thousand dollars of software to make it working and be functionnal.
“because Red Hat WILL charge”
Red Hat is not GNU/Linux. Its not a GNU/Linux desktop leader either.
…if the whole OS had been run more like the kernel, gui included. Linux on the desktop is too factionalized. Without one dominant desktop environment, there’s really no point in talking about Linux on the desktop ever becoming mainstream.
At this point, people that want Unix on the desktop just use OSX. Linux works great as a server.
Do you wanna loose compatibility with other companies?
If the other company use a cross platform solution like java… i don’t see the problem
Do you want your staff to relearn from scratch?
No, the learning curve is almost minimal today… and most of time, companies employ people who barely know how to type on a keyboard, who most of time will use only the company’s in house software, and cannot see any clear distinction between linux and windows
Do you want to switch distro on a weekly basis due to lack of continuance?
Typical FUD, If the update don’t correct any critical security problem, and don’t have a backport, you don’t need to switch to new only because they are new.
Do you wanna limit the amount of powerful apps you want to use?
What’s is powerful by your definition?! Winzip?! XDD The free software world already have a good amount of killer apps, and good amount of them are cross-platform. Yes, if the company use something like photoshop, i will do not advice them to switch, but, for a secretary, who need nothing in special, free software can be a good choice.
Do you wanna pay the same amount of money for this as you do for a functional copy of XP?
You are reading too much the “get the facts” of MS XDD
There are a number of perinstalled linux offerings a walmart.com, outpost.com, microcenter, etc.
Michael Dell is trying to protect Microsoft consumer desktop monopoly.
Boycott Dell.
I don’t care i Dell sells a gazillion Linux servers
Microsoft is not a monopoly there.
Buy from companies that offer a choice.
“Do you wanna loose compatibility with other companies?”
Nope and you don’t have to.
“Do you want your staff to relearn from scratch?”
Nope and your staff won’t have to.
“Do you want to switch distro on a weekly basis due to lack of continuance?”
Nope and you don’t have to.
“Do you wanna limit the amount of powerful apps you want to use?”
Nope and you don’t have to.
“Do you wanna pay the same amount of money for this as you do for a functional copy of XP?”
Nope and you don’t have to.
I would never recommend Dell simply for the fact of their outsourcing of jobs to India. I’ve read where Dell will be bringing their total of outsourced support jobs to 13,000 by the year’s end. For those of us that just speak English, trying to talk with one of the techs over there really is a challenge by itself.
Companies like Dell focus on “mainstream”. Can’t fault them for not wanting to bother with offering GNU/Linux on their desktops. That would require alot more money for a company, such as Dell, to initially spend to get everything on their side ready to offer GNU/Linux (support techs, Q.C., documentation, etc…).
If Dell were to enter the market, then their best solution would be to sale a Linux Certified workstation, completely formatted, and only offer hardware support on it.
Some people will be using open source on their desktop, but those of you arguing that linux uses open platforms so it must be compatible are misguided. Its not a matter of whether linux is compatible with open platforms, its a matter of whether linux is compatible with businesses. I wouldn’t count on businesses switching over from proprietary anytime soon.
I would like to see a study
on how much it would cost
to add applications to Windows
to have the equivalent functionality of a major Linux distro.
I REALLY DO BLAME Dell and HP and Gateway etc. for maitaining Microsoft’s consumer DESKTOP Monopoly.
I also DO NOT do business with these “monopoly maintenance” companies.
First of all, it’s obvious to everyone that you have no real world experience in the IT field.
“Business…don’t care that you happily run Linux..”
I hate to burst your bubble, but the majority of businesses run Linux in one capacity or another. To shrug off Linux as just an afterthought just shows your utter stupidity in the IT industry.
“misinformed zealots”
In my case OVER informed zealots.
“Businesses and the general populace don’t care that you happily run Linux while wanking off in your parent’s basement. ”
I Totally agree they whant to know what GNU/Linux can do for them , they dont care about my need , they care that there are fully met and GNU/Linux does.
” As it stands right now, it’s not a viable platform for the general consumer. ”
As it stands now its the only viable platform for teh general consumers , most of those using WIndows XP are doing so illegally with other illegaly acquired software.
“Don’t even bother giving me your reasons as to why *you* think it is ”
Your irrelevant … its not like anyone follow your advices …
“unless, of course, you’re not blinded by GNU hippie love yet. ”
GNU are not hippie , they are Freedom people , they dont smoke drugs like you they protect the righgt of everyone on the software platform.
” Moulinneuf: Quite possibly the worst English I’ve ever seen on these forums.”
Thanks , first time someone actually call it english it must mean its improving.
Do you want to switch distro on a weekly basis due to lack of continuance?
I’ve been using the same Linux (debian) longer than W98, W2k and XP combined.
Do you wanna limit the amount of powerful apps you want to use?
Debian comes with 16,000+ applications.
Do you wanna pay the same amount of money for this as you do for a functional copy of XP?
I dont pay anything. I use Debian.
I also get a lot more with Debian than I do with XP.
Meanwhile, governments, businesses, schools are already running Linux on the desktop. But you go ahead and keep claiming it’s not ready for the desktop when what you really want to say is “it’s too hard for me”, “i’m unwilling to learn something new” or some other half assed reason why you can’t use Linux. Oh, and by all means, feel free to speak for the entire world while you’re at it.
In the old days, HP and the other OEMs cried about how MS was twisting their arms with its licensing and tactics and when they finally get some leverage, they do what they’ve always done, let Bill dicate how it’s going to be. In between asking Jobs to port over OS X, that is.
Although I enjoy using linux at home and that it would be a good system for most people I know, I also realise there is very little appetite for anything new on the desktop in the market.
In fact, most people I know spend NO time on a computer outside of work. So before you make any of these poeple feel like getting linux in any shape or form, you’ll have to make a gigantic and very long communication campaign, sponsor ports of various popular applications and games and somehow link a particular blend of Linux to a ubber hype product like the iPod. And I see only Microsoft with deep enough pockets to do that. In other words, it ain’t happening any time soon.
Regardless, Linux keeps getting better and better, easier to install and maintain, and its ecosystem is way beyond the self sustaining size. So it doesn’t need Dell or anyone else in particular to grow and improve. So guess what, I am happy about the situation.
Approximately seven years ago, Linux was the toy operating system that will never amount to anything. It was the black sheep of the Unix family. The big proprietary Unix and the older free Unix made fun of little toy Linux. Today, they are having their words for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
Today, Desktop Linux is only run by GNU hippies in their grandaunt’s basement, and it will never amount to anything. In addition, it is not ready for the desktop. Are the keen minded observing a recurring pattern? They say history has a tendency to repeat itself. I hope I’m alive to see that happen.
It seems the free software community feeds on mockery, taunts and negative feedback from naysayers and “FUDers” as fuel for their fire. I’m actually beginning to enjoy the “Linux is not Ready for the Desktop/Business/Corporate Market” banters. Especially since the free software desktop environments, like GNOME, KDE and XFCE4 are improving at astronomical rates, at least when compared to Windows.
Not as if I care whether or not it is ready for Joe Pinko’s desktop anyway. Last time I checked, many of the coolest technologies weren’t ready for the masses.
Uh huh, so you automatically ignores everybody who uses Linux on the desktop today, and pretend that they don’t exist? And then you label them as “zealots” (using the word as some kind of insult), and completely ignore any valid points that they may have? Look who’s the worse zealot here.
It looks like you’re just full of irrational hate against anything that has to do with Linux. Where are your arguments? There are none! You just flame people, call them “fanboys” or “zealots” and then run away. You create a lot of noise and annoyance, but don’t expect to take you seriously any time soon. It’s your attitude.
I use Linux, I like Linux, and I have valid reason for that.
– Linux has the best price/value ratio. You get a lot of features for a very low price. Sure, it can’t always do everything Windows can because of lack of commercial applications. However, not everybody needs all those commercial applications. I don’t need them. My parents don’t need them, which is why they use Linux. Some of my friends don’t either. Although Windows’s value can be higher than Linux’s (depending on the situation), Windows’s price/value ratio is much, much worse than Linux’s.
– Linux is open source. Yes yes “average users don’t care” yadda yadda. Too bad for you, *I* care. And even the “average users don’t care” isn’t completely true. Whenever I introduce people to open source, they seem to be intruiged by the fact that they don’t have to pay tons off $$$ for expensive licenses. I run a Windows open source project. I think the age of the average user of this software is 15. Most of these people are average users. Quite a lot of people in our userbase support the open source philosophy after being introduced to open source.
I’ve also been using Windows since 1997, so you can’t just call me a “Linux fanboy”. I used to be Microsoft supporter a long time ago, but not anymore. And I have no regrets with switching to Linux.
As a Windows (and Linux) developer, I can tell you that Windows isn’t as great as you pretend it is. I regularly receive bug reports about mysterious crashes or errors in my software, even though I can’t reproduce them myselves. Some of these people even use the exact same Windows version as me. Different Windows versions and configurations have different little quirks which cause all kinds of compatibility problems. Compatibility in Windows isn’t as great as you think it is.
Most people I know are very respectful to Linux and open source, but it looks like you people have some kind of passionate and irrational hate against Linux. It’s people like you that make the Windows community look like a bunch of anti-Linux jerks. You make me ashamed of the fact that I’m still partially part of the Windows community.
I just plugged my new dirt cheap noname digital camera into my Linux desktop and a wizard started that offered to import the pictures.
I have had no problem with 3d graphics or sound.
I can play all my music fine.
Open office is very good but I have (the commercial microsoft products) word and excel when I need them thanks to the commercial crossover office package that can run them just like Windows can. I have tons of free software including great development tools and other fun stuff.
The browsers are fine, they only fall over when trying to do something with a Microsoft server product.
It is all quite fast except for the screen refesh, that quaintly runs in the background sometimes. If you unhide a window it gets redrawn slightly later. This reminds me of NT3.5x – you know the version before MS decided to compromise all security principles by sticking the graphics engine down with the Kernel and draging in all that roach code from windows 98.
Linux does not crash, it doesnt slow down over time or get infested with spyware and viruses.
When I installed this recent version of Linux (Ubuntu) it loaded straight off one CD rom and needed no set of service packs to be loaded afterwards, I didnt need to spend hours afterwards downloading drivers – they where all on the CD.
I own windows XP but it isnt installed.
What does Linux need to do now to be ready for the desktop?
The question is becoming a joke.
There seems a huge discrepancy between Michael Dell’s words and his actions. Can this be just another trick e.g. to keep competitors sleeping while secretly working on getting ahead in the Linux race?
There is only one thing that’s worse than a dumb annoying troll and that’s a dumb annoying and whining troll.
Quote
” Oh, and by all means, feel free to speak for the entire world while you’re at it” /quote
Thank you, I will
and also distanced himself from his own investment company’s $99.5m investment in Linux distributor Red Hat.
“The Linux market started on the server and it’s stayed on the server,” he told a select group of journalists in London.
Even then, a potential Linux desktop purchaser is faced with multiple notices telling them: “Dell recommends Microsoft Windows XP Professional”
My goodness, they really are scared to hell of Microsoft aren’t they? I think everyone is afraid of what would happen if they incurred Microsoft’s displeasure and Microsoft refused to do business with them over Windows.
“We have maybe 150 different product platforms. Should we test and have Linux drivers for every different model we have? To support it on every single model, every single configuration? No, we’re a for-profit business,” he said.
He didn’t just say this on the spur of the moment – someone from Redmond has paid him a visit and put the wind up him.
“I didn’t know they had made this investment,” he said. “That’s not the sort of thing we talk about.”
Come on Michael. If you didn’t know anything about it and aren’t concerned why bother effectively telling everyone that Microsoft desktop monopoly is safe as houses? This is all rather weak and obvious.
of all the platforms, WinXP? as far as I know, the next best platform after linux is OSX (could have been the best if it was available for x86, but that’s not going to happen for several reasons).
with all due respect, it’s hard to call an OS that barely comes with the most basic admin tools THE desktop platform. and I won’t start to speak of support for limited user accounts.
moreover, what you said was complete FUD. if you want to open your program, simply type it’s name in bash. that is, if it does not appear in the menu.
Linux did not start on the server. Unless you consider a 386 SX 33 with 4MB of RAM and a 40MB Hard disk (we had a 40MB disk on our 286 12MHz) to be a server class machine for January 5th 1991 (or was it 1990? I’m pretty sure ’91 is when Linus bought his machine — I’m not obsessive, I JUST read his autobiography).
Linux didn’t move into server popularity until quite a while after it was a hobbyists/techno-geek’s desktop.
In fact, of the three “linux milestones” tcp/ip was the last to happen. It had X before working networking….
Mike- just because you built a cheaper mousetrap doesn’t make you an expert on consumer preferences. Go find yourself a new idea before you make any more pronouncements from on high…
Windows XP is at on the desktop. Until you can show people that it is worth the time, effort, and money to switch (yes, believe it or not, there ARE people out there whose time == money), they won’t switch.
————————————————-
Thats why I am still with Windows, and have no plans to change soon. It has proven very reliable with little to no problems. Crashes are rare (usually from something I brought upon myself) and everything just plain old works. Linux isnt that bad, but it does not suit my needs one bit. I have tried several distros over the last few years and I find myself wasting alot of time to get things fully working. To me thats just a waste of time. If one OS can have everything working easily, I hold the same expectations to the others. This isnt about having to learn something new, because I am willing to do it and stick for the long haul. I have used OSX extensively, and I just dont like the layout one bit.
yeah and your customer service is like the worst i’ve ever seen and/or heard about, so what’s your problem michael? i think you need to worry about your own problems before jumping on the “all things mighty microsoft is God” bandwagon.
Thats why I am using Linux, and have no plans to change soon. It has proven very reliable with little to no problems. Crashes are rare (usually from something I brought upon myself) and everything just plain old works. Windows isnt that bad, but it does not suit my needs one bit. I have tried it several times over the last few years and I find myself wasting alot of time to get things fully working. To me thats just a waste of time. If one OS can have everything working easily, I hold the same expectations to the others. This isnt about having to learn something new, because I am willing to do it and stick for the long haul. I have used OSX extensively, and I just dont like the layout one bit.
“Thank you, I will”
Yes, and don’t forget to say the words. ‘Linux is too hard for me. Linux users are mean to me.’ And whatever else your gripe is.
Maybe everyone here should read this newsitem:
http://www.expert-zone.com/index.php?module=announce&ANN_user_op=vi…
In Europe, HP is going to give buyers the option of installing a *fully compatible* Linux distribution, based on Ubuntu Linux.
Thom Holwerda
—
Main news posting guy at http://www.expert-zone.com, bringing you the OS/Computer news that really matters
With the time you spend on these forums you could easily install most linux distributions and get it customized to your needs.
Otherwise, if your time is worth so much, there are distributors like aslabs that will sell you a pre-installed linux system (uber-quiet too).
Just a little note for you: it’s “Free” as in speech, not as in beer. However you don’t pay for the license with “paid-for” OSS, you pay for the binary. By definition, the license allows for redistribution of the source.
And the fact that you use expressions such as “Linsux” (in addition to making ridiculous statements such as “making my PC entirely useless) simply proves that you are yet-another-anti-Linux-troll. Just thought you should know.
Thats why I am using Linux, and have no plans to change soon.
———————————–
Thats good that it works for you. My point is that not everyone needs to rush over to Linux like some people think. Just because there is another OS out there, it doesnt automatically make it better than Windows…
I just love how the least bad is said about Linux people swarm and swarm to say “No that is sooo wrong” and when the least good is said about Windows people swarm and swarm to say the very same thing. No matter how much hair you rip from your head it will not change a thing. Linux is nowhere near being a viable choice for the mainstream desktop. I know I’m gonna get a rebuttal saying I don’t know what I’m talking about without any real facts disproving me at all. First of all, there needs to be equal hardware and software support. Now, Linux is pretty good on hardware (minus the lack thereof of 3D video acceleration and 5.1+ surround sound) but let’s face it, software-wise, there’s nothing. Nothing in the sense of meanstream desktop use. Unless of course, you just want to surf the Web but there again, it can be a problem in some Linux distros. But … nothing I say will ever make an impact, nor will anyone else here. What will happen will happen. No amount of fussing will make the general population’s point of view change and all switch to Linux.
“Something being “open source” doesn’t necessarily imply the software is free. You may still have to pay a license to use it. ”
No , thats absolutely wrong and innacurate , you dont pay for the license , you pay for the packaging or the service or the bundle. Then again I have NEVER seen someone be able to build a complete windows solution for free and give it away at no cost . exept for you and your friend the thiefs … I have seen if don with GNU/Linux and it whas perfectly legal and shared among many.
“Oh yes, and OS X >>>> Linux.”
OSX is BSD its compatible and also a nix derivative , but BSD aint Free as in freedom and aint Open Source because the software can be closed.
Wow! I can’t believe the zeal with which you guys try to bash Linux. I agree with all those who said that the FUD level in the anti-Linux posts is extraordinary. Makes me embarassed to be American.
Listen, guys. If you ever travel to Europe, you’ll suddenly realize that it’s not a Microsoft world out there. I was in Florence in a coin operated laundry in March of 2003, and found an internet kiosk powered by Linux. And that was the first computer I saw, and it was two days after I arrived. Just a little anectotal evidence to support the oft-repeated claim that Linux is in wide-spread use on desktop computers in Europe. We’re stuck in a rut here in the U.S. We too easily sucked in by the Microsoft marketing machine.
Linux truly *is* usable on the desktop. What’s missing is stuff like content that’s unfortunately geared toward Windows. A great example is online music. Only one of them, Apple iTunes, supports OS X, and not a one of them supports Linux. I think it’s pathetic, but that’s the way they chose to do business. When support in these content arenas expands to include OSes other than Windows, the last real excuse for you people will have evaporated. But I digress.
You eat what you like, and we’ll eat what we like. But stop bashing the Linux on the Desktop camp just because your experiences were less than satisfactory. All I know is I can leave my Gentoo box running for weeks without a reboot. My Windows box at work craps out with memory leaks after a couple of days.
I am going to preface this by saying that I have used Linux and/or FreeBSD. I have used RedHat/Fedora, Debian, Mandriva and Gentoo but it has been primarily FreeBSD for quite awhile now on the desktop at home for years. I run it on a desktop at home that I build from the ground up to make sure driver compatibility and stick with a pretty bleeding edge install that I tinker with and update this or that constantop PC that runs Windows XP and I support a MS shop fortly because I enjoy it. I have a lap a large bank as my job. Here is my $0.02.
Just as many here discount Linux and it’s capabilities and ease of setup and use many alot of you on the other side exagerate the problems and underestimate the benefits of MS solutions on the other hand. When it comes to running a very large network of PCs and servers MS Server 2003 and Windows XP provide a really nice, easy and elegant solution. What MS has done with Active Directory, Group permissions and security policy, software distribution and software updates addresses successfully alot of the issues the platform used to have in a very nice way. It is stable when you put it on quality hardware (recent HP/Compaq servers and desktops have been great for us as an example), it is easily managable once you master the tools and it is universally supported both on an OS and an application level by anybody and everybody. It is pretty inexpensive when you get a licence with a machine you are buying in Bulk – I would wager ~$50 for the licence for XP. And, with a quality enterprise firewall and proxy solution coupled with a locked down IE security policy/settings and a version of Symantec Corporate Anti-Virus 9 it is pretty damn safe and secure. We have to provide the buisiness with approximatly 80 applications they demand and, doing the research, only about 5 of them have a Linux version/solution. Windows XP and Server 2003 are very good corporate solutions. I think we definetly have the competition from Linux and Novell to thank for that. I love Linux people but don’t bury your head in the sand and pretend that you don’t have serious competioion from MS – especially on the desktop.
“My point is that not everyone needs to rush over to Linux like some people think.”
I don’t think anyone really thinks that and I’m quite sure nobody really say that, so I fail to see your point.
Personally I think Linux is increasingly becoming an option for many people, which is a good thing, as choice is always good.
“Just because there is another OS out there, it doesnt automatically make it better than Windows”
Nope and nobody claims it does, so again, I fail to see your point.
You spoke like a relatively clear-minded and open person, brought up good points … and then you ended it by talking about the uptime on your Gentoo box? WTF? WTF does uptime have to do with usability as a desktop operating system?
Puh-leeze.
PS: For the record, NT-based Windowses don’t have stability problems. I had two months of uptime on my XP box at work before the power decided to go out in the building.
Mod this guy up! He speaks proper english, has a flowing argument, and admits the quality value of his argument (“anecdotal evidence”). Oh if only half of ya’ll could express your ideas like he does…
I powered down a cluster after a year for a RAM upgrade today. I agree that NT is pretty stable, but two months isn’t gonna blow anyone’s socks off.
“- OS X is not BSD. I’ll let someone else explain, or perhaps look it up yourself. ”
http://developer.apple.com/macosx/overview.html
Mac OS X provides extraordinary stability and performance, which begins with Darwin ,Darwin is based on BSD (Berkeley System Distribution) UNIX ,Apple integrated the widely used FreeBSD 5 UNIX distribution with the Mach 3.0 microkernel to deliver key Darwin functionality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X
It consists of two main parts: Darwin which is based on the BSD source tree and the Mach microkernel
” I’ll say it again:”
Yes , you lie and make false statements all the time.
“Something can be open-sourced, yet still require a license for use. ”
Then its not real Open-Source its shared source disguised and wrongly called Open-Source.
“I don’t care about GPL crap ”
Its not crap , and your probably using it and dont know it.
” I’m talking about the multitudes of other possible licenses out there.”
Open source license are getting reviewed and a lot of those so called Shared Source will be dropped.
“Hell, I can even … into”
Do another Shared Source.
” and then release a piece of original software under that license. NOTHING is stopping me from doing that. ”
Yes , you doing something original or being able to code something others will whant …
“Get it through your heads. The world doesn’t end at Microsoft at one end, and the viral GPL at the other. ”
Because we have head which you lack we know the GPL aint viral.
“”Free as in beer” is a stupid, stupid Slashbot term. Beer is not free”
Actually its an FSF term , and yes beer is free :
http://www.google.com/Top/Recreation/Food/Drink/Beer/
Anyone can start there own beer company anytime they whant.
“Windows, FreeBSD, and OS X are like a regular office building.”
All prison with and Owner and slaves.
“Linux is a half-complete office building, where sometimes you need to bang on the pipes to get the drainage to work”
Lets see :
http://www.ebay.com
http://www.google.com
Guess your wrong , as usual …
“sometimes you need to give the fuse box a rewiring because the electricity goes out, and sometimes you fall in a hole in the floor. ”
And sometime liar have really nothing worthwile to say …
“MOST of the time it works, but Linux is not an office building that you can get much done in. It’s there for the sake of being, because it has a “Me too!” attitude.”
Its in Computers , Trains , Banks , Military , almost everywhere , why would people install incomplete things ?
What whas incomplete whas/is Microsoft Windows and the rest aint Open Source or free and is beeing replaced too.
GNU/Linux is a complete Idea who’s time as come , there is absolutely nothing someone like you can do to stop it.
But he didn’t make a big deal about it. He was simply being jovial.
You’re forcing me to do this.
1. OS X is a combination of Darwin, the Mach kernel, and a proprietary graphics system. Darwin uses portions of FreeBSD. This doesn’t make OS X FreeBSD.
2. “Open source” means the source is open. I don’t care what your interpretation or understanding of it is. If anyone can freely (and legally) get access to the source code, then it is “open source”. Rules regulating the use of the compiled source code are irrelevant.
3. Licenses are “getting reviewed”? Those called “Shared Source” will be “dropped”? Care to share? Who says this? Who’s doing these reviews? Who gave them the authority to “drop” certain licenses? Get real, or provide evidence.
4. It’s irrelevant whether or not someone would want a piece of software that I wrote. I was merely providing an example.
5. Thanks for the link — I know what beer is. And no, beer is not free. Walking out of the liquor store without paying for your bottle of “Free as in Beer” beer will get security and possibly the police after you. Don’t try it.
6. Anyone can start their own beer company if they want to — that doesn’t change the fact that beer is not free. Oh, and it’s “want”, not “whant”.
7. Last time I looked, much of eBay still runs off NT4. I guess that shoots down your nice “evidence”, doesn’t it.
8. I don’t want to stop GNU/Linux. It’ll stop itself dead in its tracks because of clueless people like you attempting to propel it.
Now go learn some Ehnglesh please.
o·pen ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pn)
adj.
1.
1. Affording unobstructed entrance and exit; not shut or closed.
2. Affording unobstructed passage or view: open waters; the open countryside.
2.
1. Having no protecting or concealing cover: an open wound; an open sports car.
2. Completely obvious; blatant: open disregard of the law.
3. Carried on in full view: open warfare; open family strife.
4. Sports. Not closely defended by an opponent: an open receiver.
3.
1. Not sealed or tied: an open package.
2. Spread out; unfolded: an open book.
4. Having interspersed gaps, spaces, or intervals: open ranks; an open weave.
5.
1. Accessible to all; unrestricted as to participants: an open competition.
2. Free from limitations, boundaries, or restrictions: open registration.
3. Enterable by registered voters regardless of political affiliation: an open primary.
4. Computer Science. Of or relating to a file that can be accessed.
6.
1. Lacking effective regulation: an open town in which gambling predominated.
2. Not legally repressed: open drug trafficking.
7.
1. Susceptible; vulnerable: open to interpretation; an issue that is open to question.
2. Willing to consider or deal with something: open to suggestions.
8.
1. Available; obtainable: The job is still open.
2. Available for use: an open account; the only course open to us.
9. Ready to transact business: The store is open.
10. Not engaged or filled: has an open hour for emergency cases.
11. Not yet decided; subject to further thought: an open question.
*Taken from Dictionary.com.
Open means more than “an open book.”
3.) FSF would be my guess. Or maybe OSDL?
4.) Your ability to do something does have a small relevance to your right to criticize those who possess said ability. Would you say Larry Bird was a bad basketball player, knowing he can still defeat you in the game? Or would you say he was bad compared to someone?
5.) Free and Free are not all the same. Once again, multiple definitions. I believe there are aptitude tests on your ability to determine meanings via context (it’s one thing that seperates our lingual ability from being simplistic).
6.) See 5.
7.) So that’s why ebay is so slow much(sic) days?
8.) More than likely no one debating here works with GNU or Linux (I mean to say they aren’t developers on those projects). Most aren’t official representatives (if there can be official reps for bazaar projects) either. It’d be like me hating Microsoft because you annoy me. I assume you don’t work for Microsoft?
1.) You originally said BSD, not freeBSD. And I believe the BSD coreutils are pretty much all the same, all the kernels vary (free, open, net, darwin).
2.) GOTO 0
Actually google runs off an internall modified version of BSD… but then again – the linux community wants to say everything begins and ends with them…
2. We’re not arguing about the moral/philosophical differences between “open source” type A and “open source” type B. I’m talking about the raw definition, and if you go by that raw definition, you can have an open-source application that requires a license for use. This is *not* a hard concept to comprehend.
3. And who cares about them? Just because they don’t give License A their blessing, it has to be abolished? Not only do they have no power over what licenses are “blessed” and used, but they generally don’t have much importance in the general picture of things. If Microsoft wants to continue using their Shared Source licensing scheme, they can and will. FSF or OSDL won’t stop them. The same goes for Sun, Apple, etc.
4. We weren’t discussing my ability. 😛 The Frenchman was commenting on the lack of people who would want to use my application. I was merely citing an example (“I can write something and release it under a hypothetical license of my invention, therefore the hypothetical license mechanism in question IS possible” vs. “No one would want to use your applicaton”).
5. I realize that there are two definitions of “free” when it comes to software. “Free as in beer” and “Free as in speech” are the two similes usually offered on such sites as Slashdot. The truth is that beer is not free, so the comparison just doesn’t work.
7. eBay has always been slow, but I doubt it has anything to do with them using NT4. 😛 I’ll bet it’s just limited server resources being put under heavy load.
8. It’s not about the people involved in the projects — they’re usually intelligent, clear-minded, and open to discussion. It’s the frothing Linux zealots who drive away potential switchers. These same zealots will be the end of GNU/Linux eventually.
Misc: The original *BSD comment was spurred by the Frenchman claiming that OS X was FreeBSD. I’d go look, but I think most of my comments have been deleted by frothing-zealot Nazi mods who are in denial about the shortcomings of Linux.
“Linux is nowhere near the performance, reliability, ease of use, manageability, and support that Windows XP is at on the desktop.”
In that one line you have shown to this forum how little you know. Total FUD on your behalf and shame on you. Try getting out from benchmarking dualcore CPU’s and trying some real world software that is freely available. You will be suprised, I was. Yes for me Linux still doesn’t have the apps I want but for the everage desktop it is more than capable and runs contrary to your statement above. The only thing keeping me on Windows is Pro Audio but that will change soon.
Moulinneuf (IP: —.232-131-66.mc.videotron.ca) wrote:
>BSD aint Free as in freedom and aint Open Source because the software can be closed
The same old FUD.
BSD is both Open Source and Free Software, of course – and not according to me, but according to OSI and FSF.
And of course nobody can “close” the code that’s under the BSD license. As long as they give proper credits, anybody can use it *as they like* – be it for developing F/OSS or proprietary software – but obviously the code remains both Free and Open.
What’s particularly sad is the fact that while Microsoft has a (well deserved..) reputation for being a big FUDster in the game, all the FUD over BSD (*all* of it) is spread by the same people who always complain for Microsoft’s dishonest behaviour, i.e. the GNU/Linux advocates.
“You’re forcing me to do this. ”
What keep on spreading lies and insanity ?
1. Guess I will trust ME ( IT expert , GNU/Linux expert , BSD expert ( retired ) , Microsoft Expert ( retired ) ) and The Apple Developper and Wikipedia , before I start listening to any of your none sense …
2. Means the source are Open all the time , thank you.
“If anyone can freely (and legally) get access to the source code, then it is “open source”. ”
At All time , yes on this I will have to agree with you , even insane people can get it right sometime.
“Rules regulating the use of the compiled source code are irrelevant. ”
Ha , you where doing sooo good , and add to revert to old clueless self … BTW this means no , the compiled source code is just as relevant.
3. Yes , who do you think started the too much Open Source license review 😉
“Care to share?”
No , its an internal process which is done by professionnal , I dont whant people as miss-informed and as unqualified as you are disturbing them.
” Who says this?”
I
“Who’s doing these reviews?”
Professionals.
“Who gave them the authority to “drop” certain licenses?”
There not getting “dropped” , they just whont be certified as something, there the one giving the certifications , tehy can do what they whant with there certifications , which they where not in the first place ( Open Source ). Hence being dropped from recommanded by many groups.
“Get real, or provide evidence.”
I dont need to , all is done publicly , do your own research … I dont have to provide you anything at all.
4. No , your where falsely claiming many things :
1) You can code …
2) someone would whant your software …
3) Someone would use your license and be subject to it …
5. “Thanks for the link — I know what beer is.”
No , you dont 😉
” And no, beer is not free.”
Lets see , No your wrong again, I have looked and done my resarch , unlike you , I can make my own beer and start my own beer company so its free …
“Walking out of the liquor store without paying for your bottle of “Free as in Beer” beer will get security and possibly the police after you. Don’t try it. ”
Thats not making beer , or saying beer as an owner who you owe royalties to , thats stealing the product of someone else who is distributed in a store who as its own owner …
And your talking about “Cost” , as in free = no cost , when the owner or someone else say its free its because they paid for it and are giving it to you at no cost because they freed it , when I say free I mean freedom , when a Bottle is marked 1,14$ ist not free and as a cost and you cant take it …
6.” Anyone can start their own beer company if they want to — that doesn’t change the fact that beer is not free.”
Yes , Beer is Free , they are able to start a beer comapny and pay no royalties to anyone , is beer without cost , well if someone else is paying for it or giving your the ingredients then yes , otherwise there is a small cost involved.
You have problem with “English words” , where free can mean freedom and cost.
“Last time I looked, much of eBay still runs off NT4. I guess that shoots down your nice “evidence”, doesn’t it. ”
http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://www.ebay.com
Wrong about the version but it reports as using Microsoft-IIS , I guess you got that one too , I guess we will have to shutdown all the GNU/Linux server used at EBay. I have to talk with the 4 company who said they installed the backend GNU/Linux servers and the administrator who claim to be using GNU/Linux. Oh no, thats right they report as using something else for security reason … How dum of me to forget.
8. Like you add any powers or say in anythings …
Lets see , I aint clueless , you are , I aint stopping GNU/Linux or propeling it.
“Now go learn some Ehnglesh please.”
I dont need to , otherwise there would be no way for you or anyone of your other identity to reply to me because you would not be able to understand me at all. Its you who have a problem with English.
In that entire statement of yours, you didn’t provide one shred of evidence for your rebuttal. Instead, you offered an opinion. Opinions are free — I don’t care for them.
Please, please, PLEASE shut up already. You have no idea what you’re talking about.
“[statement]”
“Do you have back up for that statement?”
“I do, but I’m not going to give it to you!”
Okay then. Go away.
…to know why ZealotHater calls Moulinneuf “The Frenchman” ?
His name looks French, and his English is funny.
“@The Frenchman”
“Please, please, PLEASE shut up already. You have no idea what you’re talking about. ”
Actually, you are.
“Okay then. Go away.”
No , you can go away , and do your research. Use your real name too , anonymous cowards who hide there true identity actually do so out of fear of repreasal because there statement would be accountable , I use my real life name and if you whant to sue me thats also my working e-mail , just drop me an official line and I will provide my adress and more details .
BTW , I am A REAL AMERICAN , I am a Canadian.
C ourageous
A mericans
N oble
A mericans
D efenders of
A mericas
where not “Of America” like some whannabe Etats-Unians , where it.
Have a nice day 😉
While it is completely entertaining to watch you go on and on in your arguments with other people here, has it occured to you that you might understand what they are saying?
Its not to insult your intelligence, but you are not a native speaker, and you do not share the same culture mindset. Those two things have been the basis for many misunderstandings before.
Here is a small example you might not be aware of:
The saying “Free Beer” has a cultural connotation meaning beer you don’t need to pay for. This is generally considered to be the best kind of beer by most people. From this people have been known to say “its like free beer” or “its free as in beer” in an attempt to mean “its something good and your getting at no cost to yourself”.
So while you might first think that “Free as in Beer” would mean that because anyone is legally allowed to make and distribute beer; that software that is labeled Free as in Beer would mean the same thing. However to your average bar attending american his first reaction would be its “software thats in general considered good and won’t cost me anything”.
Seeing as you seem to have time available for this flame fest I am not going to indulge you in providing evidence for a rebuttal. I was just letting you know that your quoted statement was full of shit and trying, say, http://www.ubuntulinux.org and downloading 5.04 you might be surprised by what you’d experience.
Linux is ready for the Desktop but is the mindshare of many disgruntled Windows users ready for it?
When you support Windows in small environments and many clients have no clue as to why thier systems are falling over all the time . . . Windows isn’t ready for them.
As for Dell, their support staff are the most incompetent idiots I have ever had to deal with. When 95% of the time their given solutions for any computer fault is “have you tried re-installing the operating system”, it makes you wonder what passes for I.T. support nowdays. They also put together boxes with substandard proprietry hardware charging more for it than eqiv white box vendors.
Move on and stop being an obvious troll.
“…to know why ZealotHater calls Moulinneuf “The Frenchman” ?”
I am sure , thats another one of is free clueless insult to another group of good people who dont deserve is baseless agravated racist clueless comments.
I just wish that all racist would be banned for 5 days for racist comments. but then again :
http://www.osnews.com/rules.php
it snot part of the rules.
I wonder why I bother, since all I’ll get will probably to be called a thief, a liar and an ignorant, with some NOs here and there, but I’ll tell you anyway :
If you think the OSI or the FSF will ever declare the BSD and the MIT licenses “unfree”n you’re deluding yourself.
The BSD and the MIT licenses are among the first free licenses, and in fact the first licenses used for free software, predating the GPL. Stallman came with the GPL because he considered the fact that people could use the code without giving back a shortcoming.
You cited a lot of firms that have used BSD code without giving back (as far as you know), and you seem to consider that this code has somehow disapeared in some other dimension. If their new code, their modifications aren’t there for everybody to use, the old code, what they have “taken”, is still there, free for anybody. And the BSDs are thriving.
As for your strande association of BSD with slavery, I suppose you consider the BSD developpers as slaves because they write code and give it for free, even to firms that will use it commercially, without any string attached. But they give it freely, and that is the important thing.
“While it is completely entertaining to watch you go on and on in your arguments with other people here”
Not arguing , stating accurate verifiable facts. They tend to need a lot of repeating before they are understood by some.
“has it occured to you that you might understand what they are saying? ”
I do get what there saying and correcting it …
“Its not to insult your intelligence, but you are not a native speaker”
You mean that I am not an excellent english writer , It would kill them to hear me speak 😉
“and you do not share the same culture mindset.”
Culture as nothing to do with education and facts , those dont change from one culture to another.
“Those two things have been the basis for many misunderstandings before. ”
Misunderstanding is not the problem , they are claiming lies and that wich are false as accurate and truth and they do understand me perfectly , the real problem is they disagree with what I say , based on there own agenda , and whats worst they claim there lies and innacuracy as being whats right and repeating them.
“The saying “Free Beer” has a cultural connotation meaning beer you don’t need to pay for.”
Yes , Thats why I take the time to say I am talking about the freedom , not the cost , but your mistaken in thinking they dont know what I mean. Free in English means freedom , that beer is free means I paid for it you can take one as I freed it when refering to cost.
“This is generally considered to be the best kind of beer by most people.”
Only when your a cheap bastard who always drink the same thing and that the value you give to beer is equal to its cost, there is an actual difference between many kind of beers and I will have to say that some will like a type of beer as the best and others another type.
“From this people have been known to say “its like free beer” or “its free as in beer” in an attempt to mean “its something good and your getting at no cost to yourself”. ”
The problem is that those “clueless Idiots” associate Red Hat with GNU/Linux and Red Hat is not availaible for free ( as in no cost , anymore ) will Mandriva , Debian , Ubuntu ( those guy even ship the presentation box if enough ordered for free ( http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/shipit/ )
“So while you might first think that “Free as in Beer” would mean that because anyone is legally allowed to make and distribute beer”
Because thats whats its true meaning is …
“that software that is labeled Free as in Beer would mean the same thing.”
See my above reply for Mandriva , Debian and Ubuntu , there are actually some who do ship free copy as in no cost. But those knieveing people choose there target and there words.
“However to your average bar attending american his first reaction would be its “software thats in general considered good and won’t cost me anything”.”
Your mean however that for your average Etats-unians bar attending clueless , they need to be told this many time because they need to get it and get sober too …
What you fail to see its that they aint bar attending people , there very well informed agenda biased clueless lies spreaders. who know exactly what they are doing.
Sorry I will never agree that something wich the source can be closed is Open Source and something wich can be owned by only one or as another owner beside you when you bought it be Free. Dont get me wrong there legal and tolerated and accepted by some , just no by me.
Why can’t we agree that all of the os are great at one thing or another and stop this silly “my os is better than yours” argument.
2.) I gave you the raw bloody english definition. Of course you can have licenses to restrict your distributed usage, but you obviously can’t effectively redistribute the exact same thing under another license: People will call you on it, and your Cherry enterprise will falter.
3.) Some people do. I don’t care if you care, you asked who reviews and says whether licenses are free or not; and I told you. By the way, people developing software and looking into different licenses care; for one.
4.) Hypothetically sure. Practically, if you want a license to do anymore than give it all up (MIT) then you’d better hire a lawyer (RMS did, the GPL was advised by a lawyer).
5.) Beer is free, if you know the right party to go to. And slashdot didn’t coin the term, I don’t know who did but I’m sure it predates slashdot. In fact, the father of slashdot was probably playing “cowboys and indians” when it was first said within the free software community. Personally, I prefer the term free to open source; but most people are too — in a box — to think of anything but no monetary cost.
7.) I absolutely agree. I was kidding
. Sometimes I wonder how so many people can stand ebay, but then again I lived with newegg back in the day when it was just as slow.
8.) I doubt that. Fronting people are the ones that got me into it, and fronting people kept me in it. People get excited and over-polarized on both sides (and there’s more than two, but people make it into a two sided debate) of this debate. You’ll likely find most of these people perfectly calm about it if they’re approached politely and feel they’re being treated with respect.
I’ve already noticed your tone to my response is much calmer and reasoned than it was to other people’s much more antagonistic posts. It’s that way in most forums, and it has been since long before the Linux/Windows debate. I’m sure the old Compuserve forums were very hot at times as well, and probably over even more stupid crap!
Very few people are as brash in person as they are in a forum. And the ones who are… well they probably don’t have the patience to type.
Take it with a grain of salt. Judge the software, judge the community, not the slashdot posts. Everybody knows better than to believe anything they read in a slashdot post!
My company (global one, US based) is in the process of testing a Linux-based (RedHat) base-image for the computers (which we buy from Dell mostly, btw
. 3 years ago, I was the only one in our department running Linux on desktop. Now, cca 20% of the people are doing and more are thinking about checking it out. Admitted, we are are techies. I know people from other IT companies, who run Linux on their desktops. For me, this is enough proof that Linux does stand a chance on desktops.
Hell, I even personally know former medicine (!) students, who use Linux on their computers and have done so already two years ago.
On the other hand, I sure do not want another OS monoculture. Hence I accept your wishes to run a different OS.
ZealotHater, unless you speak French at least as good as Moulinneuf speaks English, it is unfair to criticise his English. In a correct dicussion, oposing sides attack the other’s _arguments_, not personalities.
Don’t even bother giving me your reasons as to why *you* think it is — unless, of course, you’re not blinded by GNU hippie love yet.
In that case, I’ll give you my reasons, in no particular order. They are technical. No hippie love. And no, I don’t live in my parent’s basement.
* lower starting price
* better use for my existing hardware
* closer control of my OS
* bigger flexibility and choice of SW I use and this choice is _supported_ and _encouraged_ by the vendor of my OS
* for all I do with my computer, I have SW which runs on Linux
* my curiosity
* when something breaks, I , myself, can find out why and fix it. doing it with source code I am able to read and allowed to change is much easier then with a hex-editor.
* I run the same OS, same distro (though different versions) for different machines (my fileserver runs it, my desktop machine runs it, my 2 notebooks run it, my PDA runs, my WiFi AP runs it)
* when I use it remotely, it’s quite hard to that my actions are being executed miles away, not locally. transparent, you could say
* I can fix it through a 9600/8n1 serial link or a 9600 dial up link, when needed
* My server can serve as many people as it manages without me counting the seat licenses
These reasons might appear subjective to you. That is OK. The whole world is subjective. There no such thing as an objective truth.
“Why can’t we agree that all of the os are great at one thing or another and stop this silly “my os is better than yours” argument.”
Its not a technical problem. Its not even an argument. And its not silly as you put it.
Moulinneuf stated, in his previous (surreal..) comment, *his own* definitions of Open Source and Free Software.
OTOH, whoever might be interested in the OSI and FSF definitions of the terms Open Source and Free Software (that are, incidentally, the ones that everybody else in the world recognizes…):
OSI certifies that the BSD license is conformant to the Open Source Definition
http://www.opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.php
The FSF recognizes the BSD license (even in its previous version) as a Free Software license
http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/index_html
So (of course…) FreeBSD is both Open Source and Free Software.
FUD is FUD, and facts are facts. And all this tells a lot about the GNU/Linux advocates a la Moulinneuf.
My friend, you have convinced me of one thing : Einstein is really a genius.
(subject should have been “multiple responses” – it’s late here
replying to myself, I thought of few more reasons why I run linux
* can compare, which vendor does the same thing (packaging Linux) better.
* ease and speed of updating _all_ my installed sw (e.g. aptitude update; aptitude upgrade)
* speed of resolution and accessible information on security issues
* notification on security issues via email.
“Moulinneuf: Quite possibly the worst English I’ve ever seen on these forums.”
What a myopic bastard! I am judging simply by the name and the address that english in not Mr Moulinneuf’s native longue. Forgive me, sir if I am wrong. But ZealotHater, english speaking americans (I am one) are not the only people in the world who have something important to say. YOU try learning another language (I know seven), and then on top of that, try explaining your opinions on a subject that requires the use of technical terms that take time to memorize and see how well YOU do.
That wich make me a zealot , aka a good guy.
A consult of the Oxford English Dictionary produces the following definition for zealot:
2. One who is zealous or full of zeal; one who pursues his object with passionate ardour; usually in disparaging sense, one who is carried away by excess of zeal; an immoderate partisan, a fanatical enthusiast.
And if you think that that definition is in any way positive, you’re (self) deluded.
I know I certainly couldn’t explain anything in either of the languages I’ve toyed with (especially not Latin for obvious reasons). But there’s something to be said for speaking a language properly, and checking over your spelling quickly
.
I think Moulinneuf does a fine job with his English here.
” 2.”
Too bad you dont produce the entire definition 😉
Yes , I believe zealous people are good people , I have seen there work and achievments , “Red Cross” , “UN” , “Oxfam” , “Peta” , etc …
I am not deluded , because and for the simple fact that no one here as add there code closed to them or unaccessible due to a company owning it becase of there working agreements. Or that they asked for source code for a certain hardware parts they would have liked to work with on an OS wich whas not covered by the software maker and seeing it being refused access. Or because of the BSD license. Exept me.
Who I believe to be dangerous : exesive blind patriotist , fanatical religious murderer , fanatical murderer , power hungry dictator, power hungry murderous dictator. Racist , Racist murderer, elitist and elitist murderer.
You are tottaly deluded if you believe something wich is removing right and access to something from you is a good thing.
Well done, people, well done. I would rebut Moulinneuf’s retardity, but I see that everyone here has already opened their eyes and witnessed the shoveling first-hand. He has made a fool of himself, nothing more needs to be said on my part.
@Chris: My tone is less harsh towards you because you’re one of the few people here who have actually bothered to carry on a debate like an intelligent person. You’ve backed up your points, stated your opinions in a calm manner, and haven’t resorted to Moulinneuf-like tactics.
Anyway, it’s been nice. 🙂 I’m going to go sort some more music.
Quoth Moulinneauf:Yes , they took they closed and even sold some of this code to others without giving others the same right which whas given to them in the first place.
The only right given to them was the right to use original BSD code and do whatever the hell they pleased, so long as they posted copyright notice.
Crap or get off the toilet — show a case where Party A’s taking code from BSD and modifying or selling it prevented Party B from accessing the original BSD code.
No , its beeing kept even if unused by those firms , is it legal for them to do this , well at this time yes , but is it right ? I say no.
Then make a rational, logical, case and start lobbying your elected representitives for a reform of copyright law if you think it’s wrong.
Or, file a lawsuit designed to demonstate the unconstitutionality of curent copyright law and see if you can bring about change that way.
But never forget that it’s a court of LAW, not a court of “Morals” — because courts of Morals, those are found in theocracies run by zealots and they are a BAD THING.
No they are slave master who give code but keep all the rights to themself.
How. As mentioned before, unless you can prove otherwise, I can’t stop you from taking BSD source code just because I got my hands on it.
Now, do I have the right to do whatever I want with the code. Yup. So freaking what. Who am I enslaving that way?
Wait … are you trying to say that the code has rights?! And that by using a BSD or BSD based OS I’m evil ol massa up in the big house and those ones and zeros are my cotton picking blacks in the field?
what whas given to them in exchange for there contributions.
Hold on a moment. Other than the requirement to post the copyright notice, the BSD license is not a quid pro quo transaction. Other than requisite copyright notice, my contributions are just that — mine, I don’t have to give back to the collective. I just can’t stop you from taking from the collective or giving back to it. If I choose to give back, I know that somebody else can choose to profit from my work or incorporate it into a closed codebase. That’s the terms of the deal.
No , in that case I think they are robbed of what they did and are not getting a fair share for the work they did.
These people chose to give code back knowing this. It is not a robbery. In fact, you would rob people of the right to make a choice at all. How free is that?
I think that if a company is to sale the code + improvments , I think they should pay for the code in the first place since they are keeping it for themself.
But that’s not the deal that was struck. And (financially solvent) companies do pay their coders (under work for hire rules) for the code they build on to BSD. So I fail to see where the exploitation is taking place. Anybody who gives their modifications to BSD back to the community knows what that could mean. Anybody who codes under work for hire contract knows what that means.
A good example is if your a real American a Canadian , the Canadian go to say the United States and is put in prison there for no reason , he then become a prisoner and the United States use him as a slave to repair there roads.
( in is country he whas a free man , in the United States he is a slave and prisoner ) its the same with closing the source.
The logic of this analogy is so flawed it’s actually quite funny. Ask yourself what happens when Canada imprisons a Canadian for no reason. Ask how the the BSD code can be in prison at all if it’s still out there for anybody else who wants to use it. (How is it closed when anybody can make copies of the original BSD source?)
BSD is the flour. The agreement is, anybody who wants can have all the flour they want, so long as they say where they got the flour from. But if I add eggs and milk and sugar and really good 70% cacao chocolate, and throw it in the oven, the deal doesn’t say that I have to give my brownies away or even share the recipie. The deal was I can’t stop you getting same flour I got from miller, nor can I tell you what to choose to do with it.
2.”
Too bad you dont produce the entire definition 😉
Well, I think it goes without saying that you are not “1. A member of a Jewish sect which aimed at a Jewish theocracy over the earth and fiercely resisted the Romans till the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.”
The 3rd definition says that the word can also be an adjective.
“The only right given to them was the right to use original BSD code and do whatever the hell they pleased”
http://www.opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.php
where do you see that right given ? Its not given at all …
“show a case where Party A’s taking code from BSD and modifying or selling it prevented Party B from accessing the original BSD code. ”
Apple Mac OS X
“Then make a rational, logical, case and start lobbying your elected representitives for a reform of copyright law if you think it’s wrong. ”
No , the rationnal and logical thing to do is to push GNU and the GPL on everything.
“Or, file a lawsuit designed to demonstate the unconstitutionality of curent copyright law and see if you can bring about change that way. ”
No , going to bring GNU and the GPL to every country.
“But never forget that it’s a court of LAW, not a court of “Morals” — because courts of Morals, those are found in theocracies run by zealots and they are a BAD THING. ”
No , the law is made by the people , court are irrelevant as they only apply law that the people deem needed to be in existance or that they have not got rid of. As I said you mix Zealot with something else.
” I can’t stop you from taking BSD source code just because I got my hands on it. ”
False , you can close the improvments you made to it.
“do I have the right to do whatever I want with the code.”
Again show me where that right is given in the license …
“Who am I enslaving that way? ”
Anyone who you sell your improvments to and are not releasing your ownership to them too.
“Wait … are you trying to say that the code has rights?”
No that the code is not yours in the first place and that your are not given the rights to it.
“And that by using a BSD or BSD based OS I’m evil ol massa up in the big house and those ones and zeros are my cotton picking blacks in the field?”
Slavery is not a fun subject or something to be derised …
“my contributions are just that — mine”
No , because you are not given the right to improve the code and keep your improvment in the license even do you claim it exist its is not written in the license.
“I don’t have to give back to the collective.”
you dont even have the written right to improve the code , modify it or keep it to yourself …
“I just can’t stop you from taking from the collective or giving back to it.”
There is no collective , there is one owner. And thief who claim to be owner because they dont understand what the license give them the rights to do.
“If I choose to give back”
Its not even your decision , as you where not given the right to modify the code.
“I know that somebody else can choose to profit from my work or incorporate it into a closed codebase. ”
The license dont give you or them any rights to do anything.
“That’s the terms of the deal. ”
No , but thats whats some people decided whas what the license whas saying and make other like you gobble it as truth.
“These people chose to give code back knowing this. ”
These people dont even have the given right to modify the code they got … its not written in the license , yet they make that right for themself and someone after that invent himself the right to close it may it be company or individuals.
“It is not a robbery. ”
Taking something wich is not yours to close and to which you have no rights to modify and keep it for yourself is robbery.
” In fact, you would rob people of the right to make a choice at all. How free is that?”
No , I go further then that I show what the license actually say and give as right ( redistribution only ) , and I am trying to get it un certified and also trying to have it removed from use at all.
“But that’s not the deal that was struck”
There is no deal to be made … no right are given to any of the party involved.
“And (financially solvent) companies do pay their coders (under work for hire rules) for the code they build on to BSD.”
The code is neither the programmer to give or the company to take and close.
“So I fail to see where the exploitation is taking place. ”
The modified code is closed , when the right to modify it is not even given. The pogrammer as no right to sale is time to improve the code as he is not the owner of the code and he as no right to sale it for closing, and the company as no right to pay someone a ridiculous amout for it to be closed.
“Anybody who gives their modifications to BSD back to the community knows what that could mean.”
No , they know what will happen. same result different meanings.
“Anybody who codes under work for hire contract knows what that means. ”
No , they dont really know what it really means. They know what they will get and what they perceive is right and legal for the company to do.
“The logic of this analogy is so flawed it’s actually quite funny”
Nothing funny and its pretty logical.
“Ask yourself what happens when Canada imprisons a Canadian for no reason. ”
It dont happen they always give a reason , its a free country.
“Ask how the the BSD code can be in prison at all if it’s still out there for anybody else who wants to use it. ”
The improvments are not.
“(How is it closed when anybody can make copies of the original BSD source?) ”
Its the final product original + improvment wich is closed.
And the right to modify the code and close it is not given in the license at all. Its only giving the right to redistribute it.
“BSD is the flour.”
No , but its the example you choose to use.
“The agreement is, anybody who wants can have all the flour they want, so long as they say where they got the flour from.”
Almost right , they have to say who the owner of the floor is.
“But if I add eggs and milk and sugar and really good 70% cacao chocolate, and throw it in the oven, ”
The license dont give you the right to do that. It dont say you cant either. Its just not covered in the license.
“the deal doesn’t say that I have to give my brownies away or even share the recipie. ”
The deal dont even give you the right to make a recipe or brownies and they certainly dont say you can keep them for yourself. Its not covered in the license.
“The deal was I can’t stop you getting same flour I got from miller,”
You have no say or right in this as none are given in the license …
“nor can I tell you what to choose to do with it. ”
its not a right given or covered , even on your own flour and recipe and brownies.
in law if its not written its not given. the bsd license doe not write in anything beside owner and redistribution all the rest is not covered at all.
– where does it say you have the right to modify the code ?
– where does it say you have the right to close the code ?
– where does it say you have the right to keep your improvments as your own ?
nowhere …
Some people make themself right but the right are not given at all in the license.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=zealot&x=1…
Main Entry: zeal·ot
Pronunciation: ‘ze-l&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin zelotes, from Greek zElOtEs, from zElos
1 capitalized : a member of a fanatical sect arising in Judea during the first century A.D. and militantly opposing the Roman domination of Palestine
2 : a zealous person; especially : a fanatical partisan
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=zealot
eal·ot Audio pronunciation of “zealot” ( P ) Pronunciation Key (zlt)
n.
1.
1. One who is zealous, especially excessively so.
2. A fanatically committed person.
2. Zealot A member of a Jewish movement of the first century A.D. that fought against Roman rule in Palestine as incompatible with strict monotheism.
zealot
/zellt/
• noun 1 a fanatical and uncompromising follower of a religion or policy. 2 (Zealot) a member of an ancient Jewish sect aiming at a world Jewish theocracy and resisting the Romans until ad 70.
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861707058/zealot.html
zeal·ot (plural zeal·ots)
noun
zealous follower: somebody who shows excessive enthusiasm for a cause, particularly a religious cause
I have Yet to see where it leads to murder of others and removal of freedom of others or removal of rights of others.
Beeing a Zealot is not a bad thing.
Who cares if Linux gets en masse on the average desktop?Would be nice but personally i don’t have to see it happen.Compared to windows,opening a console on Linux is like pushing that hidden button and suddenly your average car dashboard transforms in that of a Airbus 380.Agreed,that’s to much power to handle for the average office/home user.
Let Dell and others happily sell windows to the herd,good for the collection of drones.More realistically,windows will slowly be replaced in scientific areas,at universities,colleges.The’re people who have a computer,ones who actually use it,and the ones who know.Getting Linux on the desktop of the latter category isn’t so far fetched.
“Open Source” is a trademark owned by the Open Source Initiative.
http://opensource.org/advocacy/faq.php
If your license isn’t approved by OSI, you can’t call it “Open Source.” You have to call it something else.
Since “Free Redistribution” is one of the OSI license requirements, there can’t be any Open Source that requires a paid-for license to run.
http://opensource.org/docs/definition.php
“We have maybe 150 different product platforms. Should we test and have Linux drivers for every different model we have? To support it on every single model, every single configuration? No, we’re a for-profit business,” he said.
————————————————————-
No, but how about:
1) Selling machines without windows pre-installed. You can only buy servers w/out windows.
2) How about using some standard hardware not playing with power supplies and power feeds into the MOBO’s so that customers can upgrade at a resonable price.
No, but how about:
1) Selling machines without windows pre-installed. You can only buy servers w/out windows.
Just the hardware has less market value then a working PC.
How about selling PC’s with Linux preinstalled to as much educational instutes as possible.Beginning at kindergarten/elementary shool.A lot of new distro’s you see at distrowatch.com come from (former) third world countries.Unless your country has been struck by a tsunami and a guy from Redmond comes buy to make you addicted to his stuff ,Linux,*BSD,is finacial more attractive than windows in the long run.
In the company I work at, we also looked into wide-scale linux-deployment, we even did a TCO study. Because our bosses restricted of HOW TO USE the computers, especially WHICH PROGRAMS to use, our internal TCO study showed that a windows dektop would cost € 100/month and the linux desktop would cost € 150/month.
So far MS was right, linux CAN cost more than Windows. But I want to show you HOW this costs were accumulated:
First, the guys who know least about linux (our bosses) decided: MS Office has to be used by EVERYONE in the company, and NO EMULATORS are allowed. As in our culture crossover office is seen as an emulator, MS Office on linux was a no-go. Currently we are using some HPUX workstations and for these we have some MS Terminal Servers which provide the office applications we use. The terminal servers account for € 75/month, I guess you can figure out the rest by yourselves.
Of course we could have had a different scenario: Use OpenOffice.org on as many desktops as possible, give everybody a crossover office+MS office setup for the first 4 years, tell everybody to gradually phase over their MS Office macros to OOo, after the four years let only the PCs of the secretarys and the sales department stay with MS Office, if the package is absolutely needed. Then we would have had € 90/month for the linux desktop and after 4 years this would have dropped to € 75/month. Even if some transition costs have to be taken into account, the investment would have payed within 2 years easily.
I managed to get an HP testmachine (dual EM64T), which was set up dual boot (Win+Linux). Because I was migrating from a HPUX machine I was able to make an argument why I currently use the computer as a Linux machine. With time I will have to switch over to Windows. I dread that day, because windows is not ready for the desktop.
OK, OK, befor you windows loving zealots shoot me down, I will give you the reasons why I think windows is not ready for the desktop I need:
Usability: I am used to working on several projects at the same day. For each project I have a virtual desktop. Windows HAS no virtual desktops out of the box. I end up with a confusing amount of icons in my task bar, which cannot be grouped accordingly (one group for each project).
Networking: X Windows’ networking capability is a really good thing. We can log into each others machines and run an application on the remote machine and sending the window to our own desktop. This makes sense, because some of our calculations run on a big iron HP Superdome computer, and we have to debug our 200 MB input files there. If we have to do that locally and send the debugged input file across the network we run in trouble with network bandwidth. For other applications we spread several calculation runs accross the computers (parallel computing by hand), and this cannot be done with windows machines that easily.
Good XTerminal (in Windows its the command prompt): You may now think: What the hell has the Xterm have to do with a DESKTOP. Well, not every task CAN be made with point and click, be it that we have some python and yorick scripts doing some data processing with help of some self-compiled c programs. I HAVE to start this from the command prompt, so a usable XTerminal (with a working TAB key) is really essential if I don’t want to die from a heart attack when I am 35.
Also if I want an application to get started from within a certain directory (because the output of that app should also get there), this is necessary.
This Dell guy has no idea what he is talking about. It does not help his business if they announce Linux computers, 2 months later take that back, 2 months later offer them again, but for a higher price only to be cancelled a month after. Nobody who has a sane brain will buy from such a company. For Linux desktops to gain volume you have to offer them for a longer periode, until they reach critical mass, then whatch the market volume go up, you RIDING this wave, not paddling after.
Of course they would have to offer EVERY computer they offer with either Windows, or Linux or dual-boot PREINSTALLED. They also would have to give all options the same advertizing weight on their website, not hiding the Linux computers in some dusty cupboard. One can make lots of errors when trying to sell a linux desktop, Dell made them all.
“Shut UP. The GPL is viral.”
The GPL is not viral: A Virus is something that attaches itself to something else without the victim intending this.
This is not how the GPL works.
The GPL allowes you to:
1) USE the GPL’ed program without limit, the output of the GPL’ed Program is itself NOT GPL’ed (in this regard the GPL is NOT viral).
2) COPY the GPL’ed program in both binary and source code, without any limit whatsoever (in this regard GPL is NOT viral).
3) DISTRIBUTE the GPL’ed program in both binary and source code with one requirement. You have to give the recipient access to the source code and you have to give him the software under no other license than the GPL. As everything you distributed was under the GPL as you recieved it, it is not viral in theis regard either.
4) MODIFY the GPL’ed program. The license states clearly that every derived work may be distributed only under the GPL. As you knew this BEFORE you used GPL’ed code (you have to read a license) you are doing that on purpose. That is not the behaviour of a virus, a virus comes without you knowing. So in this regard the GPL is also not viral.
Dear ZealotHater,
I have listed here 4 things you can do with software, 3 of which CANNOT even attach a GPL license to an other work, the 4th requiring ACTIVELY using GPL’ed code in other software to get the GPL covering something else. I cannot see anything viral in the possibilities I mentioned.
Maybe you can give me a situation, where the GPL comes without me knowing it, and attaches itself to the proprietary software I could be working on.
I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank the osnews editors for their great work.
The discussion here shows clearly that osnews is doing its utmost to make sure that discussions of the posted articles stay on topic and are kept civil.
Well done and thank you for making this site worth visiting,
Ralph
ralph, you are a stupid kraut. Shut up and let real people (read: good and just USians like ZealotHater) discuss. You are just in the way.
Signed: another stupid kraut.
You all should shut up and exit returning status indicating failure.
“show a case where Party A’s taking code from BSD and modifying or selling it prevented Party B from accessing the original BSD code. ”
Apple Mac OS X
Falls on floor laughing. Apple has never stopped anybody from accessing BSD code — otherwise there’d be no Dragonfly BSD, to name one on-going project In fact, they’ve given it back and their improvements — see Darwin.
Anything they’ve come up with on their own, independent of BSD is theirs free and clear and they are under no obligation, zip, zilch, nada, to hand it out.
” I can’t stop you from taking BSD source code just because I got my hands on it. ”
False , you can close the improvments you made to it.
My improvements are not the issue. I cannot stop you from getting your hands on the same BSD code I started with. I can stop you from taking MY improvements, that is all.
“And that by using a BSD or BSD based OS I’m evil ol massa up in the big house and those ones and zeros are my cotton picking blacks in the field?”
Slavery is not a fun subject or something to be derised..
And yet you’re the one who keeps bringing that topic up. And all note that you did not answer the question.
These people dont even have the given right to modify the code they got … its not written in the license , yet they make that right for themself and someone after that invent himself the right to close it may it be company or individuals.
In a licsence/law, that which is not expressly forbidden is allowed.
And finally, Oxford English Dictionary is considered the most complete and authoritative source on the definitions of words in the English language. It is *the* Academic standard — which is why I cited it.
You might read my previous comments explaining why I run Linux on desktop.
I run it on desktop. I.e. it is running on desktop now. Present time. So it does not have to come. It’s here already.
Remember I can do more work on Windows than on Linux out of the box
This just gave me a good laugh.
What office-style sw does come with a default Windows install?
What ssh client?
How would you rename a few gigabytes of media files, to some common scheme, one directory after another?
How would you post-process the photos from your digital camera?
“Falls on floor laughing.”
Yes , thief usualy always laugh real hard, until they are caught.
“Apple has never stopped anybody from accessing BSD code ”
Yes , they do they stop people from taking Mac OS X and improve on its current code. Apple dont own BSD , so off course there not going to block acces something wich they are not owner of or claiming to be owner of. Your point is ridiculous because you jump from Mac OS X to BSD original code.
” otherwise there’d be no Dragonfly BSD”
http://www.dragonflybsd.org/main/
again with another insane example , this project is not based of Mac OS X.
One example that would show Mac OS X or BSD to be really Open source whas if someone ( a company or individual ) like Dell could take Mac OS X and make it run on its hardware.
“– see Darwin. ”
They only give back some of there improvments.
“Anything they’ve come up with on their own, independent of BSD is theirs free and clear and they are under no obligation, zip, zilch, nada, to hand it out. ”
Show me where in the BSD license it say they can modify code and keep code and close it as there own ?
your inventing right which are not given.
“My improvements are not the issue. ”
Yes , they are part of the issue in the license nowhere does it say you have the right to make improvments. It dont give you the right too keep them for yourself or the rights to close them.
“I cannot stop you from getting your hands on the same BSD code I started with.”
You cant stop me from doing anything you have no rights , exept the one to redistribute.
” I can stop you from taking MY improvements, that is all. ”
No , because the right to modify the code and keep it as your own is not included in the license. There are no rights given to you exept redistribution.
“And yet you’re the one who keeps bringing that topic up.”
Yes because , I know first hand what slavery is.
“And all note that you did not answer the question. ”
There whas no question , there whas a mockery of the term slavery based on your wrong education that equal slavery with black in cotton fields in the US.
“In a licsence/law, that which is not expressly forbidden is allowed. ”
No , in law ( wich license base there wordings on ) if its not written its not given.
You cant steal a bank , no no no I did not stole the bank , I removed money with a truck from the vault Its not written in the law , ok we add truck , no no no I did not stole the bank I removed money from the vault with a buldozer , ok we add buldozer , no no no I used a tank to steal the bank … etc … etc …
That which is not written is not given.
Dude…word cannot the describe the amount of self delusion you’re swimming in.
The *very first* paragraph of the BSD license states that provided you abide by three simple rules you can distribute BSD (originated) code with or without modification in any way, shape or form you like. I call that actually more free than the GPL, and some actually agree. Not Stallman, but he’s a raving lunatic anyway. That’s the reason why it’s recognised as a true open source license (whoever came up with that definition anyway), and I doubt it’ll ever lose that status.
The GPL may be an “open source” license too, but it takes away the “freedom” to do what you like with ith. It adds restrictions to make sure the code remains “open”. I don’t think that’s “open”, I think that’s “open with a catch”…but I guess that still fits in the OSI definition of “open source”. Heck, the BSD license is even GPL compatible because it’s perfectly allowed to take BSD code, slap a GPL license on the modifications (maybe even the whole thing, but IANAL) and redistribute it.
Anyway, the rest of your arguments and everyone else’s trying to rebut them is almost pure entertainment. Keep it up, I’m enjoying this!
BTW, I’ve been using linux on *my* desktop for years. I don’t like BSD, I’m forced to use Windows and I also think Linux (I bloody well refuse to cater to Stallman by using his self invented “GNU/Linux” crap) still has a long way to go, especially in manageability, to make it on any many business’ desktops. Sorry, until Novell gets off its egg, Windows has the edge. But at least it’s interesting times!
You gotta give credit where it’s due: this Moulinneuf guy is taking GNU/Linux FUD-spreading “advocacy” to new, unimagined levels.
The interpretation of this academic license has been established by decades of use, and is beyond any conceivable doubt.
Basically it says: do *whatever the heck* you want with my code, except 1) stripping away the license, 2) using my name to endorse your stuff and 3) suing me if it doesn’t work as you expect.
Anyway, here’s the license. It’s very short and simple, and even the dumbest idiot on earth could understand it. It’s totally legalese-free, and it reflects the original academical (and not political) spirit.
http://www.opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.php
Copyright (c) [YEAR], [OWNER]
All rights reserved.
Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:
* Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
* Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
* Neither the name of the [ORGANIZATION] nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission.
THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS “AS IS” AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT OWNER OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.
Don’t tell micheal dell that I’m thinking of switching my main desktop over to debian or freebsd full time! Wouldn’t want to burst his little bubble. My wife may be on *nix pretty soon too, (linux or osx, depends on money), they’ve got hello kitty skins for stuff, she’ll be happy.
Just tired of dealing with spyware, defrag, random crash, slowness. If I’m gonna waste my time with a computer, I’d rather learn something as I do so!!
>> Just tired of dealing with spyware, defrag, random crash, slowness. If I’m gonna waste my time with a computer, I’d rather learn something as I do so!!
Your computer is a tool. If you don’t know how to use one, either learn or try something different. Using an alternative operating system is not going to change the fact you don’t want to understand the tool your using.
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like nails..
Heck, the BSD license is even GPL compatible because it’s perfectly allowed to take BSD code, slap a GPL license on the modifications (maybe even the whole thing, but IANAL) and redistribute it.
Yes, you can put the whole thing under any license you like, *provided* you bring along the BSD license textfile to cover the portions of BSD code you used – otherwise it would be copyright infringement.
(IANAL either, but I’m pretty sure about this).
“Your computer is a tool. If you don’t know how to use one, either learn or try something different. Using an alternative operating system is not going to change the fact you don’t want to understand the tool your using.”
Funny how every issue with XP is the users fault, whereas every issues with linux just shows that it isn’t ready for the desktop.
Anyway, what are you trying to tell us? How does from the fact that computers are tools follow that a user of the tool has to know the inner workings of it? Do I have to know the inner workings of my car in order to drive it? Do I have to know how my TV works in order to watch TV? And frankly I couldn’t care less how my toaster works as long as it does it jobs.
That you seem to live under the delusion that this is not true for computers, or more precisely for computers running Windows doesn’t really reflect favorably on computers running Windows, does it?
Sometimes fanboys just are the worst enemies of the things they proclaim to be fans of.
Yes, you can put the whole thing under any license you like, *provided* you bring along the BSD license textfile to cover the portions of BSD code you used – otherwise it would be copyright infringement.
INAL, but — Bingo.
Copyright is also why a party can close any additions they make to BSD code.