Home > Microsoft > Microsoft to Junk Flagship ProductsMicrosoft to Junk Flagship Products Eugenia Loli 2003-12-06 Microsoft 24 CommentsDecember 15 will be D-day for a number of Microsoft’s established products, which the company is removing from its sales channels as a result of its legal settlement with Sun over Java.About The Author Eugenia LoliEx-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli 24 Comments 2003-12-06 4:01 am They’re junking Windows XP/2003 and Office XP? Oh, wait. Win 98 isn’t exactly ‘flagship’… 2003-12-06 4:18 am “Fortunately all those customers now have another option. With the release of Sun Java Desktop System they don’t have to buy new hardware so they can pay the ‘Redmond Tax’—they can use the existing hardware for Java Desktop.Another bitter, half-baked Sun Spokesman comment 2003-12-06 4:23 am Laugh all you want, but windows 98 is still working fine for millions of computers worldwide, whether you like it or not. 2003-12-06 5:05 am One of the reasons I use Windows 2000 installed at work rather than XP pro is that I still have jview. I hate using suns Java on windows. I am not certian but the last I heard, the final verdict is that there will be no java VM included with windows at (XPSP1?). I don’t see how this is going to help Sun move the java platform forward? That is ok though, I hate Java anyway. 2003-12-06 5:07 am Hmm, I wrote that comment and even I can barely parse it. Oh well. 2003-12-06 5:41 am The one hundred dollars it takes to pay your developes to stay at work and write device drivers that are not included in the system so you can make linux at least usableReally? You’ve paid a developer 100$ so that he would write a device driver not included in the system? Or perhaps you have a link to a story about this? What device drivers are you speaking about, exactly? How much is the developer paid an hour? Or is it a 100$ (american I presume) per device driver?Or is it some kind of attempt at humor? It must be, because it doesn’t make any sense…I wonder which is more pathetic: the first poster’s feeble attempt at making a false claim about Linux, or your attempt at elaborating upon it?It’s hard to tell. 2003-12-06 5:49 am I wonder which is more pathetic: the first poster’s feeble attempt at making a false claim about Linux, or your attempt at elaborating upon it? Looks like your comprehension skills are the problem. The original quote was about a Redmond tax, and why people should use Java Desktop instead. JAVA DESKTOP HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED TO COST ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS. I provided an article quoting this, and you have chosen to ignore it. Bask in your own ignorance, I suppose. 2003-12-06 5:54 am It’s win win for Microsoft.It’s unlikely they were finding new buyers for the old versions anyway. They want to encourage sales of the new stuff. They want to drop support for the old.As an added bonus they get to thumb their nose at Sun in a juvenile display of sour grapes, and blame the legal system for future missed security updates and bug fixes:“We’d love to correct those problems but our hands are tied. The court won’t let us.” 2003-12-06 6:09 am First, you said Linux tax, not Java Desktop tax. There is no “Linux tax.”How can you be taken seriously when you’re mixing things up. Oh, I forgot, you were only trolling.I provided an article quoting this, and you have chosen to ignore it.How do I know it was you? Am I to assume there is only one Anonymous poster from attbi.com? Why don’t you get a nick?I did know for how much Sun is selling their system. But you didn’t say the “Sun tax” or the “Java Desktop tax.” You should use proper terms.Anyway, since Linux systems and apps are rock-solid (as long as you don’t run development versions), your comment that things “don’t work half the time” can easily be proven wrong.A simple example: my current Linux system at home has been up for 33 days. During that time, I’ve had only one non-development application crash on me (Konqueror, about about four times times). In the past month at work (Win2k), I’ve had IE crash on me about four times a week! Word XP has crashed at least twice, Photoshop has crashed at least once, and a couple of others.Neither system was brought down by those crashes (though the systems slowed down considerably for a few moments on both at some point). So we can conclude that, in this real-world example, that at least some times WinXP apps aren’t as reliable as Linux apps. 2003-12-06 6:09 am It might not help push Java forward, however, it also doesn’t work against that goal particularly actively. Micrsoft shipping a crippled or modified VM (that undermines the goal of compatibility between operating systems) does work against that goal.Sun’s not trying to hinder Java, they’re just trying to make sure Microsoft can’t hurt their branding efforts. 2003-12-06 6:22 am “Another bitter, half-baked Sun Spokesman comment”Another batty bitter half-baked Batty comment. 2003-12-06 6:32 am It might not help push Java forward, however, it also doesn’t work against that goal particularly actively. Micrsoft shipping a crippled or modified VM (that undermines the goal of compatibility between operating systems) does work against that goal. Well, the problem was also the fact that Microsoft removed Java parts and replaced them with “Windows” exclusive features. The problem wasn’t the fact they added features, all J2EE compliant servers have proprietary addons, however, it was the fact that Microsoft didn’t even get the basic framework compatible that was the problem.If Microsoft wanted to add certain features, why not just add them ontop of the basic framework and allow the developer to choose.I do remember the days of “Microsoft Java”, going to simcity.com to play simcity classic and you choose between “Simcity for Windows” and “Simcity for MacOS/UNIX” from the drop down menu.Sun’s not trying to hinder Java, they’re just trying to make sure Microsoft can’t hurt their branding efforts.I completely agree. I wonder how willing Microsoft would be if Mono suddenly tured around and started calling their version of .NET “Ximian .NET for UNIX”? I would guess that Microsoft would be rather pissed knowing how much Microsoft spent branding their product and now someone else has ripped it off. 2003-12-06 6:41 am “One of the reasons I use Windows 2000 installed at work rather than XP pro is that I still have jview.”Do you mean that jview exists on Win2K but not WinXP? If that is the case, look under C:WINDOWSsystem32. It is still there. I am using WinXP Pro right now.“I hate using suns Java on windows. I am not certian but the last I heard, the final verdict is that there will be no java VM included with windows at (XPSP1?). I don’t see how this is going to help Sun move the java platform forward? That is ok though, I hate Java anyway.”1. Well, if you don’t like java, don’t use it. I personally don’t like Java either, but there are those who think it is just swell.2. I agree, it is a kinda dumb strategy by Sun. What they should have tried to pull off was force MS to package the Sun version of Java. I mean not only that if MS is going to have Java, they have to use the Sun Java…that part is obvious…but actually force the inclusion of Sun’s Java and no other as part of a settlement. That would have enabled Sun to use the Windows platform to help leverage the propagation of Java. 2003-12-06 7:27 am Sun is famous for producing bloated and DOG SLOW software on desktops – Java, StarOffice, etc. 2003-12-06 1:37 pm im using win98 at home, because my main system is old, has only 64mb RAM; and though it crashes frequently, im not depending on it; i can always boot into another os, when im frustrated; but im tied to windows because i dont have any other way of using webcam chat feature on yahoo;this decision might affect the enterprise and business users but home users rarely depend on M$ ‘s support;they depend more on friends and neighbour hood geeks;cheersram 2003-12-06 2:47 pm Sun is famous for producing bloated and DOG SLOW software on desktops – Java, StarOffice, etc. Actually Staroffice was bloated when it was still being produced by Star Division (they created the all-in-one version), since Sun bought it it has only improved. And I don’t wan’t to get dragged into the java is slow debate, but the fact is there are plenty of relatively fast java apps. 2003-12-06 3:59 pm Yeah I totally agree, not only can then say we no longer support that product, but they can also blame the whole thing on Sun. So now not only is Microsoft cleaning house, it gets to push it’s new products. I bet to lock people in for another 5 years they are going to give coupons out to upgrade to the most recent version. 2003-12-06 5:05 pm “Sun is famous for producing bloated and DOG SLOW software on desktops – Java, StarOffice, etc.”Java is only slow in some extend regarding GUI. Ever used Apache + Tomcat? These USAF products fly quite fast imo, at least they do in the implementation i use ’em (a CMS). 2003-12-06 5:43 pm Ninety-eight withdrawnLast vestiges of DOS goneGoodbye. Good riddance. 2003-12-06 7:55 pm Why was MS still even selling Windows 98? Win98/98SE went off of the free MS support list on June 30, 2003. That means that no new updates are released for it through Windows Update, and that there is no free calls. According to the EULA, the customer is entitled to 2 free support calls to MS if they have purchased a retail product. If a customer was to call after the June 30 cut off date, they would have to pay $145 for the support call. If a new customer bought Windows 98SE after this time, and needed support, they would have called MS expecting a free support incident, but would have to pay $145.00 USD to get the “free” support. In the customer’s knowladge, this would violate the EULA, and the customer may feel inclined to sue for breach of contract. After all, the MS EULA does not specify when the product goes off of the support list, so the customer would have to check the MS PSL on thier site, but if they did not have internet access, how is this supposed to be done? 2003-12-07 3:14 am Why was MS still even selling Windows 98?I dunno about Win98, but our KUKA robots come in with Win95 on them. These are newly purchased units (within the past 1-3 years). Obviously, some manufacturers design systems around an OS, and will pay the extra for continued copies of the exact same OS, rather than chase the update carrot.I think their newest units run on XP, but we won’t be getting any of those units in. 2003-12-07 9:37 pm Shouldn’t that headline read “Microsoft Flagship Products Are Junk”? 2003-12-08 1:21 am The fact is that the most distributed JVM to date actually has been Microsofts. It’s a good situation for Microsoft as they can continue to try to slowly kill Java. The first phase was to ship an incompatible JVM that actually became more popular than Sun’s because it was shipped with Windows, and this second phase is to hurt Java even more by not including a JVM at _ALL_ (not including Suns)I think it’s all of their master plan, and Sun fell for it. 2003-12-08 2:05 am Well, the problem was also the fact that Microsoft removed Java parts and replaced them with “Windows” exclusive features. The problem wasn’t the fact they added features, all J2EE compliant servers have proprietary addons, however, it was the fact that Microsoft didn’t even get the basic framework compatible that was the problem. My understanding was that they didn’t remove anything, merely that their additions weren’t done in the “approved” fashion and “encouraged” developers to write code that used extensions only in Microsoft’s JVM.