“The 33-year-old creator of this 3-D effect, dubbed Looking Glass, is a programmer at Sun Microsystems in Santa Clara. He’s part of a crew creating desktop software for the freely available Linux operating system. So far, many desktop versions of Linux emphasize how it can mimic the functions of Microsoft’s Windows and Office software.” Read the article about Sun’s Project Looking Glass here. Looking Glass is a 3D Java application running atop X11, simulating a desktop environment with nice 3D effects, but it is not incorporated to Gnome or X11.
New 3D Effect Could be a Bright Spot for Sun
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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So where can I d/l this thing? I bought JDS and I don’t see it on the JDS updates page.
It is not available. It is still lab material at this point, mostly serving as demo to journalists and others. AFAIK, Sun is not exactly sure what to do with it yet (that’s what I was told the last time I talked to a Sun official).
The major turn off point for the app is that it is an app and not integrated to X. This means that apps not written for it specifically can’t access its goodies and do nifty effects like OSX & Longhorn apps can easier do.
So wait… maybe I should RTFA, but it’s a new 3D effect that… it’s like a graphical interface? I thought a “3D effect” was something more like adding perspective to an image, or making things… I don’t know… 3D!
It will never see the light of day on my Linux desktop!
Supposedly, Joe User can’t figure out filesystem heirarchy, talk little of manipulate 3 dimensional user interfaces. Sun would probably need to go as far as dissecting the brains of millions of users just to get them to understand 3D paradigms.
Besides, 3 dimensional technologies have been used in games for the past couple of years. Take a look at your average console games and chances are that unbelievable grahpic effects and 3 dimensional scenes are rendered in real time.
Except Looking Glass aims to bring a new level of user immersion to the desktops, like mordern games try to do on the PC and console, I’d argue that usable 3D environments are a decade away.
Frankly, I think we are yet to exploit and perfect usable 2D environments, but it’s great projects like this exist for the desktop. At least people will think before they spew crap like “Linux doesn’t innovate”.
At least people will think before they spew crap like “Linux doesn’t innovate”.
I’m not so sure this can be credited to Linux. It’s work being done by a Sun employee using a closed-source, proprietary platform (Java). The fact that Sun wants to integrate it with their Linux distribution, does not make it a “Linux” innovation.
I wish that Sun would stop developing software because the patents only close the future and set heavy restrictions on the way people are allowed to think. Send looking glass to Solaris, not Linux. It’s poison, just like XML.
I’m not so sure this can be credited to Linux. It’s work being done by a Sun employee using a closed-source, proprietary platform (Java). The fact that Sun wants to integrate it with their Linux distribution, does not make it a “Linux” innovation.
About a few topics below this one, you’d see SUN fans swearing the Java was open source. Now, java isn’t? Secondly, Looking glass wasn’t initially part of SUN’s project. The author was working on it in his free time and on Linux. Thirdly, Linux isn’t a proprietary platform, and SUN executives are touting Java as open not proprietary.
This is much more than just a 3D effect. This could bring alien technology to the GUI.
In fact, I was thinking “it would be doubly cool if OpenBeOS adopted this interface, one day”.
Hi
”
I’m not so sure this can be credited to Linux. It’s work being done by a Sun employee using a closed-source, proprietary platform (Java). The fact that Sun wants to integrate it with their Linux distribution, does not make it a “Linux” innovation.”
If you want to go more specific on that you cannot call anything outside the kernel a linux innovation. if kde changes stuff you will get that on freebsd too. its built on top of x11 which isnt linux specific either. as long as its worked upon on linux and designed for it we can call it a linux innovation
regards
Jess
It doesn’t make any sense that MS developing some technology on their product (Windows) or Sun (Solaris) can dictate what we can and can not do on our platform Linux. They can dictate what we can do on Windows or Solaris, but not on Linux.
Don’t be stupid.
So you’re saying that gnome and kde people can, but sun can’t??
They are developing software. If you want or not to use, it’s your problem. Nobody is trying to dictate anything.
you’d see SUN fans swearing the Java was open source. Now, java isn’t?
Last I checked, I couldn’t just download the source for Java. So that doesn’t sound like open source to me, regardless of what the Sun fans may think.
Now, if someone can point me to where I can find the source for Java and muck around with it, recompile it for other platforms, &c., I’d be happy to change my tune.
Thirdly, Linux isn’t a proprietary platform…
The platform on which he’s developing is not Linux, but Java. Linux happens to be the host of the Java platform, since Java rarely stands alone. So while Linux isn’t proprietary, I stand by my assertion that Java is, and hence the development of this project is on a proprietary platform (regardless of what Sun or its fans may think — the Java specification is still controlled by Sun after all).
If you want to go more specific on that you cannot call anything outside the kernel a linux innovation. if kde changes stuff you will get that on freebsd too.
That depends. Look at it this way: if a developer working on a FreeBSD creates a KDE application which is quickly and without “significant” effort recompiled for all platforms, does that mean that FreeBSD has innovated, or that a developer using FreeBSD has innovated? It seems more proper to me to call this a KDE innovation than a FreeBSD innovation — especially since without a KDE installation, the application won’t run even on FreeBSD.
If on the other hand a developer of the FreeBSD OS, in the process of tinkering around with FreeBSD proper, comes up with an application that is proper to FreeBSD, although the application can (with “significant” effort) be ported to the Linux kernel, that is certainly a FreeBSD innovation.
I’m not claiming that Linux doesn’t innovate (I have reasonable faith that it does, and I generally enjoy using KDE 3.1). I’m merely pointing out that if a developer writes a Java application, that innovation cannot be credited to Linux unless something Linux-specific makes the code work. Ditto if the application is hosted on Windows, OSX, FreeBSD, QNX, AmigaOS, B.E.O.S., Palm, whatever. As far as I can tell from the article, there’s nothing Linux-specific about this, so I don’t consider it a Linux innovation.
But I could be wrong. I’ll admit I’m not entirely clear on whether this application is Linux-specific, but I don’t see anything that suggests it is, and perhaps I’m splitting hairs too finely. But if he’s developing it using Java, it most likely runs on pretty much any platform, not merely Linux, so I don’t think it’s a “Linux” innovation.
Project Looking Glass is being created to work with the Solaris and Linux desktop environments using Java technology
From http://wwws.sun.com/software/looking_glass/
So it does seem that Looking Glass is a Java application, and not Linux-dependent.
BTW, what’s this “wwws” stuff in that address?
I agree with you, that this isn’t an “innovation” you can attribute to Linux. By that logic, I also think that stuff like DirectX and .NET (which were developed at independent companies that Microsoft bought-out) can’t be attributed to Microsoft either. So in reality, Microsoft doesn’t innovate either
on java, does that mean it would run in windows too?
.NET was created orignially by another company? Hm. I didn’t know that. I always thought that .NET was the one *really* cool thing that MS made.
What was the company?
Your usage of the word platform confuses me. Java to me is a programming language. Linux, Solaris, Windows, Xbox, Nitendo, running on multitude or specific hardware are platforms. You develop technologies for a particular platform. For example, .NET is primarily developed for window, especially Longhorn, Java for multiple platforms, Palm for PDAs and cell phones, GNOME for Linux and Unix, etc.
According to the article, Looking Glass project was developed on Linux by an intelligent hacker in his free time. In fact, SUN only endorsed the project after a fully functional prototype had been created. This has absolutely nothing to do with Java. For all he cared, the hacker could have used QT, GTK+, or your favorite toolkit, API, or programming language to design Looking Glass, he choice of language was just preferencial.
Going by your logic, innovative applications only occur based on APIs, Languages or toolkit. And the operating system which is perhaps the most important software in a computer can insignificant compared to programming languages, APIs, or toolkits used to design applications. In that case, I beg to differ
My point exactly was to point to zealots that innovation is colorless to multi billion dollar R&D, Big corporations, Operating systems, architectures or commercial IT companies. Innovations occur in all spheres of the industry, but some people are just brainwashed to repeat mantras like, “Linux is not innovative, yadda yadda…”
Here an intelligent Linux developer, and SUN employee, presents an interesting concept of 3D to the Linux platform, which will be ported to Solaris later. What are naysayers going to say next?
Java is also being called a platform, because you dont develop for the Window/Linux/etc. platform, but for the Java platform…
The Java source is available at:
http://wwws.sun.com/software/communitysource/j2ee/j2ee/download.htm…
Colusa Software. They developed a product called OmniVM that was capable of running Visual Basic and C++ code and allowing them to interoperate. It did this by compiling both to an intermediate language (what is now MSIL) and running them on a special JIT compiler.
A good article is here:
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?HistoryOfCsharp
Now, I don’t want to slight the folks at MS — the .NET platform represents an enormous amount of work beyond what they got out of buying Colusa. However, the fact remains that the actual innovation behind .NET was developed outside of Microsoft.
Of course, there is nothing wrong with that. As I said, it is not common for large, business-focused corporations to innovate. It makes for more sense for them to let the little guys do it, and buy them out.
“Of course, there is nothing wrong with that. As I said, it is not common for large, business-focused corporations to innovate. It makes for more sense for them to let the little guys do it, and buy them out.”
Among other ways.
the usability of 3D desktops more than 10 years ago and still use a 2D desktop.
BTW, the most prominent part of their 3D desktop effort was the 3D filemanager, which appeared in Jurassic Park.
Carsten
I think Sun will mess it up. They won’t figure out how to make it widespread and use it to make a real difference on the Linux desktop.
If they only intgrate it to JDS, it won’t be enough to foster adoption. They won’t be able to sell it in the windows world where that will be expected to be freeware (would you pay for that ?)
Now they are filling for patents meaning that it will be lost for all.
>>>SGI studied the usability of 3D desktops more than 10 years ago and still use a 2D desktop.
There was probably a problem of hardware cost at the time. It’s only recently that sufficient 3d performance is available from comodity graphics chipset. And SGI has never tried to do anything towards the desktop market.
Anything that has not been done by Apple or Microsoft in the last decade on the desktop front (not applications) was not going to make it mainstream
“Besides, 3 dimensional technologies have been used in games for the past couple of years. Take a look at your average console games and chances are that unbelievable grahpic effects and 3 dimensional scenes are rendered in real time.
We are talking 3D UI not a purpose built gaming environment. Imagine a set of glasses or goggles that would write information directly on your retina using low powered lazers RGB. Then perhaps using a glove type input device to manipulate objects in three dimensional space right in front of your face or at arms length CAD anyone?. That would be long term short term is stuff like the sharp laptops with 3D lcd displays coupled with looking glass and that is pertty much now. Try to think outside the square.
At least if they market it the right way. This would be the perfect ‘cool’ thing Linux needs to fix the average joe’s needs. Joe average doesn’t really care for the 2.6 Scheduler or 32 SMP support. The only thing average Joe tends to like is having a ‘cool’ desktop.
anyone know incredibimail (or how its spelled)? the worst email-app on earth, allowing stuff like ugly animated gifs etc:
http://www.radsoft.net/resources/rants/20020421,00.html
i know a lot of joe averages out there, and they all love this software, especially because it seems to be cool that a trumpet-playing dog walks over the desktop when a new mail arrives.
same goes for osx. if i show them panther and exposé etc, they all love the mac, but not because they like unix (they hardly ever heard this term) but because it looks so cool.
now, having a ‘cool’ desktop experience, something joe average could show joe average2 in order to make the case that he is unbelievable cool, something like that would really help desktop linux. imho.
“on java, does that mean it would run in windows too?”
From the OSnews text here above: “Looking Glass is a 3D Java application running atop X11, simulating a desktop environment with nice 3D effects, but it is not incorporated to Gnome or X11.”
As a result, an X11 implementation is neccessary. Given that Microsoft doesn’t deliver such with it’s Microsoft Windows product while there are both propritary as well as Free (speech) X servers ported to MS Windows it wouldn’t run out of the box.
What i don’t know for sure if wether it would run as binary out of the box on MS Windows together with a X11 implementation or that the source needs to be recompiled. In the case of the latter you’ll have to ask Sun to do so.
“And SGI has never tried to do anything towards the desktop market.”
The Indy was a direct competitor of Apple’s by-that-time-current Mac.
“I also think that stuff like DirectX and .NET (which were developed at independent companies that Microsoft bought-out) can’t be attributed to Microsoft either.”
I think directx comes from MS, before directx there was something called WinG wich i believe came from somewhere else.
.NET came from where BTW??
Last I checked, I couldn’t just download the source for Java. So that doesn’t sound like open source to me, regardless of what the Sun fans may think.
Now, if someone can point me to where I can find the source for Java and muck around with it, recompile it for other platforms, &c., I’d be happy to change my tune.
————————
http://wwws.sun.com/software/communitysource/j2se/java2/download.ht…
And please, this topic about getting Java open sourced is becoming old.
So much noise for nothing… just like if the concept or the technology were new in something. This *isn’t* innovative at all!
D
it is not a 3d desktop. it puts 2d windows on blocks which mimic windows behaviour on blocks. this is *sooooo* useles and ugly to. incorporating java3d in your desktop appears to be a nice way of deaccelerating it though. just in case the *famous* speed of xfree86 was to much for you.
there is a video demo of looking glass you can download.
it isn’t 3d in the sense you walk around the desktop.
that’d be silly. but the windows live in 3d space and
can be manipulated in 3d. looks cool actually. i think
it is great someone is actually trying something new.
http://wwws.sun.com/software/looking_glass/demo.html
The Java source is available at: …And please, this topic about getting Java open sourced is becoming old.
Thanks! For some reason my memory was still stuck in the arguments about whether Sun would open Java’s source code. Guess I should have paid more attention 🙂
And have to say this is an exciting new variant on the 3d desktop idea. The shift from (as someone above said) moving from a 3d walk-about-able desktop to just the desktop living in a 3d space is an excellent one. It allows a pathway for people to progress from the familiarity of the current standard way to the newer more flexible way (I love the stickiness of apps with notes, flip over the app to add the extra info).
I hope it ends up as an actual product because it looks great to me…
At no point was the statement “Java is open source” ever made during the presentation; rather the reference was that Java is an open platform for development. To this I would agree. Java can be downloaded and run on a multitude of operating systems, including Solaris, Linux, Mac OS X, and Windows. Whereas, if you want to use Microsoft’s competing technology, .Net, then you will find yourself locked in to the Windows platform. (yes, I know Mono exists. I also know that it is not yet a complete implementation of .Net.)
Many people also seem to think that since Looking Glass is an application, instead of being integrating into the windowing system, that it is diminished in value. I disagree. One of benefits of Looking Glass as application is that it can be ported to every platform capable of supporting Java. This would have the advantage of sidestepping reliance on Microsoft to voluntarily modify the Windows source code to support the 3D desktop.
Looking forward, I see this as a innovative step towards redefining HCI and moving beyond the current 2D desktop metaphor.
Why does osnews continually post articles on this when every single time there is no new information?
Not to mention this is a completely useless gimick that won’t make anyone more productive. If anything it will confuse people and slow down power users.
Jack Perry:
“BTW, what’s this “wwws” stuff in that address?”
This wwws stuff is the subdoamin englobing all the software content on Sun.com (first created to host downloads i believe).
Desktop innovation by Sun in Java on Linux
Yeah, is a 3d desktop even a good idea. How will this make the interface more productive? Maybe we should keep video games out of the desktop.
Sun should stick with Solaris if they want to use patents.
DirectDraw originated at Intel under the name DCI (Display Control Interface). An Intel/Microsoft partnership turned it into DirectDraw. Direct3D was originally developed at a company called RenderMorphics under the name of RealityLab. Microsoft acquired the company in 1995 and turned RealityLab into Direct3D. DirectMusic started its life as AudioActive, a product by a company named Blue Ribbon Soundworks.
A fella by the name of Alex North-Keys already created this years ago and has some great screenshots.
http://www.talisman.org/~erlkonig/z/
Can’t see how Sun can claim it.
“this is a completely useless gimick that won’t make anyone more productive”
A 3D desktop could definitely be useful in the hands of power users. Let’s suppose you are working on a large Excel worksheet with 3+ sheets. With a 3d desktop, you can put all the worksheets you are working on in a roster and scroll it with a mouse scroll. Without the 3d desktop, you will have to click through a series of menu options.
I am a programmer myself, and I use Websphere daily. The program is amazingly powerful but its many perspectives (Java, J2EE, Debug, CVS, etc…) is quite overwhelming. A 3D desktop which enables me to open all of the perspectives at the same time and spin them around in a roster so I can visually identify the perspective I need to work on would greatly simplify my work.
I am just touching the tip of the iceberg here with one possible example of how a 3D desktop can enhance productivity. I am sure many others out there could think of more.
It’s easier to click a tab than it is to spin objects around, if you can find them.
man you are a tool