From the announcement: “Yes, it’s gotten to this. The developers are working in their sleep. It’s time for SKIPJACK, the new Red Hat Linux beta. Packed with the
very latest technology, SKIPJACK includes: the 2.4.18 kernel, XFree86 4.2.0, KDE 3.0pre, GNOME 1.4, including Evolution, Mozilla 0.9.9 and more…” The beta comes in five CDs (no less than 2.8 GB of download) but as usual, only the first disk is needed to have a working installation.
Red Hat Announces Skipjack Beta
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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2.8 gig download?!
it only needs the first cd to boot, that is good…but no more then 1 cd should be added on top…redhat should do as apple does… 1 cd for the os and essential software, 2nd for developer software.
>it only needs the first cd
>to boot, that is good…but
>no more then 1 cd should be
>added on top
And why would that be? Its not like they are forcing the five down your throat. I don’t see any problem with 5 cds. Very probably I will only be needing the first one, but hey, Redhat knows their customers better than you and me.
Thanks Eugenia, the weekend was begining to get boring
The 5 CDs is merely a favor that RedHat does to its customers. Instead of saying “here’s your OS, go find your own damn apps” they are saying “you were nice enough to install our OS, here’s a shitload of apps you might find useful.”.
Debian has 3 CDs, you only need the first, i’ve only ever used the first. There is nothing wrong with those additional CDs, its just more stuff for the user to play with.
Debian has 3 CDs, you only need the first, i’ve only ever used the first. There is nothing wrong with those additional CDs, its just more stuff for the user to play with.
Actually, you can get by with far less. The reason I love debian is Apt. Far better than rpm, imho. I do all my debian installs off a floppy, add ftp sites to my apt sources, and away I go. Debian has a far better package management system. It should be far more widely used than it is. The only thing that really comes close is the *BSD ports system.
Oooh oooh, I have another paranoid theory! Gather all, and I will tell a tale as clear as day. Offer a distribution that requires 10 CDs. At some point the number of CDs makes buying a boxed copy more convienient. The bastards, etc..
Gentoo Linux has BSD-style ports system which works fairly nicely. You all should try it sometime. Now if only I liked Linux …
Am I missing something? Aren’t the first three CDs needed? I know Mandrake gives you the option to install from however many CDs you have, but I have never seen this in Red Hat. This release seems to be no different. I don’t see how to do a basic install without all of the requisite three CDs.
>Am I missing something? Aren’t the first three CDs needed?
In my time, I have tried Red Hat 6.x and 7.0. Only the first CD was needed to install the system. The rest of the CDs were complimentary with third party software and source. I do not see how that would have changed now. Even the (“bloated” by many) XP needs a single CD, why Red Hat would need more for a full blown Linux system (which under specific conditions, it is able to boot successfully with http://freshmeat.net/projects/natld/?topic_id=257“>only and with X support)?
You can’t really compare XP with redhat. If you just want to install comparable programs to what XP has, then redhat will occupy much less space than XP from a fresh install. Of course if you want 30 text editors, 3 webservers, 5 browsers, 10 window managers.. then you better get all the cds. (godamn I hate that. Why can’t they include just ONE of everything that they believe is the best/most standard and let ppl download everything else?)
I’ve taken a quick look, and it <a href=”http://www.linuxhelp.net/reviews/rh71.shtml“>seems that since 7.1, both CDs were needed for a basic “Workstation” install. I certainly don’t see a way around it. With Spinjack, the installer prompts for the second CD (and presumably the third), and without it, it’s impossible to continue. The only option is to reset. According to a slashdot poster, the fourth and fifth CDs are just SRPMs, and therefore not required.
> Why can’t they include just ONE of everything that they
> believe is the best/most standard and let ppl download
> everything else?
Red Hat is primarily targeted at servers and workstations. It is not intended for ordinary desktop users, although it isn’t too bad in that department.
Including builds of many packages makes things easier for people looking for a particular app, saving them the trouble of compiling from source. For example, if Red Hat only included Vi, I’m sure that many people would go ballistic (especially Emacs users).
“Why can’t they include just ONE of everything that they believe is the best/most standard and let ppl download everything else?”
Because, that would suck. What if Red Hat (or Debian since I don’t use Red Hat) decided that they were only going to supply the Emacs editor because somebody thought it was the best?
I probably wouldn’t like their distribution much since I like vim the best and personally feel that Emacs is more like automated pile surgury than an editor.
The great thing about all the distros is that I can choose to install, lets say Apache, or I can use Tomcat’s web server abilities instead, or I can combine them both and have a full blown killer web server and a great Servlet container working in spectacular harmony.
Why would you want to get rid of these options?
Instead, why don’t those installing the os decide what they want and only select those items instead of clicking the install-every-last-stinking-thing-on-the-CD option?
Heh, no wonder why *Nix pundets are wanting MS to include other applications besides their own into Windows. Looking at the Linux distros that come with 80,000 apps (about 20 of which are actually useful), it becomes apparent that they prefer the ‘everything but the kitchen sink’ approach.
“Instead, why don’t those installing the os decide what they want and only select those items instead of clicking the install-every-last-stinking-thing-on-the-CD option?”
Most of my experience has been with Slackware, and it can be a royal pain in the ass having to go through all of the menus and install everything, especially when I don’t know what half the stuff is or if I need it. If it has 30 web browsers listed for you to install or not, how are you supposed to know which ones are good and which are not? Other times, the descriptions are so esoteric, I have no idea what the damn package is for. Not only that, I find myself having to de-select a buttload of apps that I actually want to install, simiply because an updated version of said packages were released three days after the distro was made available.
<blockquote type=”cite”>Heh, no wonder why *Nix pundets are wanting MS to include other applications besides their own into Windows.</blockquote>
You have that backwards. Most pundits want MS to STOP bundling applications into the Windows OS. Internet Explorer comes to mind.
actually only needs one CD to perform a basic install (that is workstation/laptop with Gnome default graphical environment).
In 7.1 you needed 2 CD:s to perform the same.
I think the default workstation install actually isn’t THAT bloated but I agree, the default install could be smaller.
The worst part is all services that are started like lpd, sendmail, kudzu slowing down startup and taking some memory,
running serviceconf however takes care of those problems.
I think a lot of ppl only uses their linux PC as a general workstation and prioritize faster startup than starting a lot of services which are never utilized.
It’s probably true that a lot of systems running Red Hat Linux are being used as general workstations and don’t need e.g. sendmail in daemon mode
If you don’t run Kudzu you don’t get PnP hardware installation. So obviously it’s better to have it and not need it (press Ignore), than to not have it.
The main reason Red Hat choose the options they do, as far as I can tell, is that they match the preferences of paying users. The 48 workstations in a lab that were cloned from a local FTP mirror aren’t “paying users” so nothing about their configuration influences Red Hat. Meanwhile one “enterprise” web server on a 16 processor HP system built on Red Hat Database *is* a paying user, so the preferences for that system influence the next version.
As is so often the case, you can buy influence. Spend $25M on software and support from Red Hat and maybe they will throw in your favourite config included as an option on the next CDs. Or buy the Red Hat customisation guide and learn how to do it yourself
Upgrade or Workstation/Server/Laptop/Eugenia’s PC
However they do listen to all users for ideas, and that’s why RH 7.2 workstation doesn’t put FTP servers, Finger servers etc. online unless you explicitly ask it to, because users said they preferred OpenBSD style “Secure by default”
That’s fine for people with broadband (when I used Mandrake, I put the internet sources first, because it was easier to download the packages than hunt around for the CD) but for people who are still using analog modems, having a collection of software on CD is a godsend.
Yes and no. I’m on a 33.6 analog modem connection, im about as low as it gets on the internet food chain. But i still install all my debian apps from the net. Why? The price/time needed is outweighed by the fact that i get the most current version of the app i want. When i do get onto a broadband conection i take advantage and run ‘apt-get dist-upgrade’ and it upgrades every single one of my packages to their newest version.
If no internet connection is available, then yes, the CDs are nice, but even with a slow connection, i’d rather get my apps from the net.
If you don’t run Kudzu you don’t get PnP hardware installation.
Kudzu just makes it easier, its possible to do it without it. And of course a kernel recompile is another option (dont anyone go and jump on that saying “linux sucks cause you have to recompile your kernel”, its just an option thats possible.)
skipjack is the way to go now
My Yamaha SCSI CD-RW decides to die while burning the 2nd ISO 🙁 I’ve burned less than 100 CD-R’s and the damn thing dies on me.
A day of mourning…
You are not the only one who had a Yamaha CDR dying today. http://slashdot.org/~Eugenia%20Loli/journal“>Check , on my journal for more details.
“Most of my experience has been with Slackware, and it can be a royal pain in the ass having to go through all of the menus and install everything.”
That’s why I use Debian. I do a basic install, apt-get update, apt-get dist-upgrade, apt-get install x-window-system, apt-get install wmaker (or fluxbox), apt-get synaptic.
At that point you can use synaptic to read a description of all the packages available through apt and only install the ones you want.
You could also do a basic install and then use freshmeat.net to search for programs you would like and then find as many of those on your CD as you can (and download whatever you can’t find).
It’s not that hard really.
skipjack is the way to go now
You bee heavy hitter of comedy
It’s a good thing redhat chose not to test the x-configuration during the install process!
hey jack have you actually tried ie since 4.0? What do you use thats better? Its a small install (yes thats right you heard me, install opera w/java or netscape and their file is bigger once you get any plugins you have in ie). Not that opera isn’t great too (I love the mdi myself and wish they’d add it to the next ie), I’m just saying I hear people say ie sucks and they give no reason. I do agree there are some programs they install by default that suck (msn messanger comes to mind) but for the most part their easy to uninstall (ok in 2k and xp you have to find the sysoc.inf to remove some of em, but even thats easier then getting rid of files in linux you don’t use and installed by accident). btw I also agree *nix distros should eliminate some options. Sure giving us 6 browsers to try is great but if your gonna do that a.) make them easy to uninstall, b.) make it easy to change file associations, c.) leave all the developer stuff on the cd in the default install (create a newbie install option)
IE sucks because it is a resource hog and takes up 30 megs on my hard drive.
I went 98lite on its ass and it freed up 30 MB of hard drive and the system only uses 20% fewer system resources now, even when running mozzia, I get fewer resources being used.
then add in that my UI is lighting fast with out the active desktop, I would say, the world would be a better place if IE had not been integrated into windows.
Okay, I’m posting from Skipjack right now. This is by far the best Red Hat Linux I’ve used so far, very comparable to 7.2 but seemingly faster. No matter what I say and think, the fact remains that desktop Linux appears to be achievable. We may not be ready overall, but companies like Red Hat, Lycoris, and Mandrake are proving that we ain’t all that far off!
hey jack have you actually tried ie since 4.0? What do you use thats better?
<P>
If you must know, I use Mozilla on OS X, or sometimes Opera, and I use Netscape 6.x on Linux, sometimes Opera. Switching soon to Mozilla on Linux I think.
<P>
I’m just saying I hear people say ie sucks and they give no reason.
<P>
I don’t recall saying that. I do have issues with it that have nothing to do with size or performance, so I don’t use it. But I made no evaluation of its performance, precisely because I can’t comment on it.
Whoops, lost something there.
Genaldar: I didn’t say anything negative about IE’s performance, as I recall, precisely because I don’t use it, so I can’t evaluate it.
Here are my simple thoughts on Linux and all the bundled apps.
I’m an electrical engineer. When I went to school, the most useful thing they taught us was KISS–Keep It Simple Stupid. Linux distros are finally begining to learn this. I’m sure we would all LOVE to have 50 different cars to drive. One for off road, one for long straight fast roads all optimized to the peak. Now how many of you would like to maintain all those cars yourself? You’d practically be changing oil every night (3000 miles OR 3 months–whichever comes FIRST).
Apply the KISS principle to every aspect of an OS and by default the useability will go up. By the way, simple to use–not simple to program.
later,
Landar
It’s one thing to bundle a free program on a cd, it’s another to illegally bundle things b/c one is a compeditor trying to put one out of business then sell it for a high price at a later date.
As for bloat, do the math. Take all drivers in kernel alone. For each driver, add a cd to a windows install. Example, zip drive driver=1 cd. This is how it’s done in windows world. MS office=3 cds. NOw you have a couple hundred cds to rh’s 5 cds. I don’t see the problem. If MS office was freely bundled, I’d think that this was a good thing, if windows cost about $60.
Fair enough Jack, when I read your post I jumped the gun a little. I thought since you mentioned removing ie you had a problem with it, sorry about that.
Jeremy wow 30 megs, thats what 9 mp3s? I hate to be sarcastic (no I don’t I love it, I’m such a liar), but in these days when 40 gig hard drives are on the small end, does 30 megs make a big difference (btw that seems large, mine is under 20 and I’ve got a ton of plugins). And that doesn’t take into account how much space an alternate browser would take up, to use an example my opera folder when I used it, including java, was 3 or 4 megs larger than my ie stuff. As for system resources I admit its not the most lightweight (its prolly 2nd heaviest, netscape 6 was a beast, I never tried newer netscapes though so I couldn’t comment on them). btw I think that 20% is a bit of a fudge (I’d believe 10 or 15, but 20 seems fishy even including the extra resources active desktop takes), but since I’m too lazy and don’t care enough to fiddle with my working 98se installs I guess I’ll have to take your word for it.
<blockquote type=”cite”>wow 30 megs, thats what 9 mp3s?</blockquote>
Do you load 9 MP3s into memory every time you boot your computer? Memory and system resources are the issue here. 98lite can give a big boost to system performance and stability. Load Opera or Mozilla on top of that and things can be much faster than Windows with IE. You can load a browser only when you need to. If it crashes you can start it back up again without having to reboot. When you’re finished you can close it — completely. Try doing all that with IE.
To Anonymous from UPENN:
I don’t know what version of Windows you’re installing, but there isn’t a single version of MICROSOFT Windows that is more than one cd. Windows ME- 1 cd. Windows XP – 1 cd. Windows 2000- 1 cd. MS Office 2000 or XP – 1 cd. I don’t know where you came up with this ridiculous theory that a single driver takes up an entire CD, but you couldn’t be “wrong-er.”
I think we need to understand that Linux “any distro” is an OS for the creative mind, for people that create their own world and not let others create it for them, Linux users are independant of standard’s, cause we create our own. Whether it be in buisness or personally, we want the fredom that comes with ownership, and that is “fredom to choose” and not have the opinions of others forced on us or other options taken away, to include 5 web browsers is to say, “U HAVE A CHOICE”. If u use linux ur not bound by anyone but yourself. while im babling, i was put down by a bunch of MS$ ppl taday
about linux and id like to explain the reason that these ppl who put us down hate linux so much,; 1: linux cant be bought, this means that u cannot win, u cant flash ur money and buy us out, 2:there is no one to beat, who are you going to win against? , and many others, but to sum it up linux users “in the os world” are immortal, linux will live forever for this reason “FREEDOM” it is a os with no rules, only the ones you set
.
(our legasy will live forever.)
life is about freedom, just a question to think about the next time u buy an OS.
I dont really want to compare Linux to a vehicle, but if we must I would argue that I or anyone else would be pretty pissed if someone told me when i bought a car that they was going to pick the color and the type. I want that choice, if I want a chevy and they tell me that im not getting a chevy, instead im gona get a ford, then they r taking my freedom to choose and thats wrong, so opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and we are entitled to our own assholes, thats what Linux is all about, “OPINIONS” and the freedom that comes with them.